Author Topic: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?  (Read 87366 times)

Offline Phillip Dampier

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The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« on: February 26, 2006, 10:44:49 pm »
This thread comes from another discussion in this forum and it is something that is of interest to me.  I was born in April 1967.  I honestly have only the vaguest recollections of "culture and society" starting around the mid-1970s, and really didn't deal on any deep sense of my sexuality until the early 1980s came rolling around, so the time and era of Jack & Ennis' rural Wyoming is a complete mystery to me, although I can make educated guesses about the culture of America back then, mostly gleaned from television shows of the era.

I would like to hear from people older than myself about how sexuality was dealt with in society when Jack and Ennis first met, particularly because that was a few years before I was even born.  For people younger than me who have asked me about what life was like in the 1970s and even into the 1980s, it's bizarre because it doesn't seem like -that- long ago to me.

My assumption is that homosexuality would not even be broached in a school setting, so any notion of what "queer" was must have come from pop culture and talks with friends.  But I wonder how aware the average person would be about homosexuals back in the 1960s.  I can't imagine such things were ever referenced on radio and television beyond some generic "sexual deviant" label, if it was mentioned at all.

In a rural setting, I assume it would be even less likely to come up.

Would two guys living together automatically be assumed to mean they were gay?

For me, I had no clue people like Paul Lynde or even the guy who brought us "Madame" on 70s television were "gay," much less Liberace.  But then, I honestly had no clue about how people actually had sex until my 6th grade health class, when it was read out in front of us.  I can still remember being honestly shocked by the notion - I had no idea beyond the vague descriptions given in one of those ABC Afterschool specials which were mega-controversial then (and didn't even come right out and explain it) and probably would pass on a South Park episode as quaint today.  The entire notion of being gay was something I didn't even deal with in any way until high school.

Reagan era attention to homosexuality in pop culture was a handful of movies like The Boys on the Bus which terrified me because I resembled nobody in it, the Making Love film which seemed more tuned to someone in a straight relationship dealing with coming out issues (and I wasn't with anyone at that time), and a pile of AIDS movies.  Things improved in the 1990s.

I think some additional insight would be useful to everyone.
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Offline BBMGrandma

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2006, 04:38:15 am »
Dear Philip....

Well....love....I AM 67 and the 60's are very vivid in my memory.  Whew!!!  I remember in my high school....there was a girl in my class....<two....in fact> who were BUDDIES!!  Us gals always thought they were 'odd' but had NOT a clue that perhaps they were lesbians.  In retrospect I am SURE they were/are...but we had NO names to give them.  Our only point of reference in those days  <the 50's> were off handed comments we would sometimes hear from our parents...!!  Comments such as...'Girlie men....'  'Nancy men....'  or just  WEIRD!!  <my name....btw is Nancy....which TOTALLY confused me>  I would rush to the dictionary and look up my name...only to find it was a city in France.  I never EVER heard the word 'homosexual' or 'lesbian'.  It just wasn't a word anyone used. 
In 1960 I enrolled in hairdressing school...in SF!!!!!  WELL.....what an introduction I HAD to the gay world.  I immediately became fast friends with my fellow students.  I was SO very straight and ignorant...it was unreal.  I was introduced to cross-dressers, homosexual gay lifestyles, bi-sexuality, and every other aspect of this 'new world'   It was totally mind boggling.  I enveloped myself in these folks...!!  I EVEN wound up helping my cross-dressing gay friend as he got dressed for going out on the town.  We exchanged clothing.  It was a NEW WORLD I had discovered and I adored it.  My friends were shocked beyond belief that I would embrace these folks as friends.  It just wasn't DONE in those days.  People would steer clear of anything remotely resembling the gay lifestyle.  I remember taking my Auntie to Finocchio's nightclub to see a beautiful show filled with female impersonators.  .  She suggested that I needed a psychiatrist and that I was a VERY troubled individual. 
I got very ill one time....and was raising my son as a single mom.  GUESS who came to my rescue during that time?  You got it!!  My gay pals.  They would take my son to his baseball practices....they brought me food....they cut my son's hair when it needed....they came over to clean my house.  Not ONE of my straight friends did anything close.  They called and would ask if I needed anything.  My gay friends didn't call...they just DID IT!!   My parents were enraged that I would trust my son with 'those people'   ::)  I never gave in to anyone's pressure.  My gay pals and I remained friends for many MANY years.  In fact....one of my dearest gay pals died two years ago.  HOW I mourn...losing him. 
Anyway....Philip...it was NOT an easy time to be gay...in America. 
"If we never dream....we'll never have a dream come true"   (me...myself...and I)

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2006, 04:40:40 pm »
Seeing the film and reading this board has made me realize that our culture has changed so much since the 1960s. Coming of age in the 1960s was a strange, schizophrenic experience, especially in the midwestern part of the U.S. That's where and when I'm from. On the one hand, conformance was the goal, but on the other hand, the Kinsey report had just been published, and it shocked the midwestern bedrock to its core.

Then came the student rebellion and rejection of the prevailing mores. As a college graduate in a medium size midwestern city, I was part of a crowd of young people whose lives seemed to be put on hold. There were no good jobs, so I fell in with fellow waiters and other service people as well as artistic types. We were, as Kinsey called it, "polymorphously perverse"--there were male couples, female couples, and mixed couples as well as people who played the field, "open marriages," and everything in between. For a while, I enjoyed having a gay lover, and he was just as functional in every way as straight lovers I had known.

It all came crashing down when this mysterious disease later called AIDS developed. It seems like the U.S. became much more puritanical after that. In some ways, Brokeback Mountain brings back the attitudes of the 1960s and 1970s for me, both the feeling that anything is possible between two people no matter who they are, and also the crushing repression of the homophobic conforming midwestern culture.
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Offline strazeme

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2006, 08:45:13 am »
I'm 61, about the same age as Ennis.  Grew up in rural Iowa.  As a gay guy, I was horribly isolated and alone.  Didn't even know I was gay, just that I was different, and had to assume I was the only one in the world.  While I didn't have the horror of Earl and Rick, I got clear messages of waht was acceptable, what was expected.  But I was so, so alone, could't even talk to anyone.  So I bottled up everything, didn't dare get close to anyone, especially not other guys.  What if I should slip up and impulsively give some guy a pat, or hug ... or that kiss I needed so much. 

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 10:03:44 pm »
Seeing the film and reading this board has made me realize that our culture has changed so much since the 1960s. Coming of age in the 1960s was a strange, schizophrenic experience, especially in the midwestern part of the U.S. That's where and when I'm from. On the one hand, conformance was the goal, but on the other hand, the Kinsey report had just been published, and it shocked the midwestern bedrock to its core.

And it's all totally missing for people like me.  I was born in 1967 and I think my earliest memories of culture/society were around the time Nixon was headed out to the helicopter for the last time.  Growing up in the 1970s meant hanging out with the last vestiges of the Woodstock culture which was seeming to die out with the end of the Vietnam War anyway, but I distinctly remember teenagers teaching us young folks about the peace sign and 'love not war' as concepts.  The 70s were very confusing to me because things were changing very quickly.  I recall in the mid-late 1970s the whole disco movement was in full force.  A scary part of that was going into Aeropostale, a clothing store, in one of the earliest malls in our area which was terrifying because it was all colored spots, strobe lights, pounding music, and black painted walls in there.  We had a local disco here that was evidently shaped like a 747 aircraft which I heard about second-hand (obviously).  Jimmy Carter and John Denver were interchangeable to me growing up.  Everything was back to nature and country-living back then.  I finally became culturally aware during Reagan's first term as president.  Culture shock.

Quote
It all came crashing down when this mysterious disease later called AIDS developed. It seems like the U.S. became much more puritanical after that. In some ways, Brokeback Mountain brings back the attitudes of the 1960s and 1970s for me, both the feeling that anything is possible between two people no matter who they are, and also the crushing repression of the homophobic conforming midwestern culture.

I think the whole Reagan "revolution" and backlash against what was seen as rapid change into a permissive society had a lot to do with it too.  When this country gets afraid of something, we tend to regress overtime.  We've seen it with terrorism these days as well.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2006, 10:10:22 pm »
I'm 61, about the same age as Ennis.  Grew up in rural Iowa.  As a gay guy, I was horribly isolated and alone.  Didn't even know I was gay, just that I was different, and had to assume I was the only one in the world.  While I didn't have the horror of Earl and Rick, I got clear messages of waht was acceptable, what was expected.  But I was so, so alone, could't even talk to anyone.  So I bottled up everything, didn't dare get close to anyone, especially not other guys.  What if I should slip up and impulsively give some guy a pat, or hug ... or that kiss I needed so much. 

One of the things Ennis did which is quite common with people uncomfortable with themselves is suspect that everyone is looking at them or paying attention to what they are doing.  When you remarked about "slipping up" it reminded me of his fears that somehow people "knew."  In studying people and being open with them both before and during the time they got to know me, I have seen something very consistent - most people are truly oblivious about other people around them.  They just don't have a clue.  You are more likely to draw attention by loudness of voice or clothing than you are by being close to someone.

I got sick and tired of the whole bottled up thing when I was 19 and just decided enough was enough and forced myself to take on the world.  That means having to open up and trust people, even when some of them will burn you.  But ultimately, it works.  Nobody has the right to dictate the terms of our individual happiness.  Some people presume they have that right only because we indirectly grant it to them out of fear.  We're seeing that today in the culture wars in America.  As long as we grant ignorant people the right to tell us what is and is not appropriate behavior, they'll keep reaching for more.  We need to have the courage to tell them "no more."
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Offline strazeme

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2006, 10:17:01 am »
Phillip, I'm glad you were able to shake it off.  But for some of us, it's still there.  Fortunately, I no longer fear tire irons.  But my emotional shut-down has never started up.  I learned too well to protect myself by not feeling ... push it down and make it go away.  And now, Brokeback has acted like a giant can opener, taking off my lid like a can of beans.  This emotional opening has really overwhelmed me, and I'm not dealing with it very well.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 05:31:22 pm »
Phillip, I'm glad you were able to shake it off.  But for some of us, it's still there.  Fortunately, I no longer fear tire irons.  But my emotional shut-down has never started up.  I learned too well to protect myself by not feeling ... push it down and make it go away.  And now, Brokeback has acted like a giant can opener, taking off my lid like a can of beans.  This emotional opening has really overwhelmed me, and I'm not dealing with it very well.

strazeme, many of us share with you a response to watching BBM along the lines you mention here.  Seriously, you are not alone.  I guess the extent of this impact is equal in intensity to exactly how far you'd shut down your emotions in the first place.  Eventually, the realisation hits us that this change was absolutely necessary, since protecting ourselves from the heartbreaks and dangers of life has also meant that we are prevented from experiencing the joys.  Another result has been that we have come together to help each other through this transition.  If you're feeling overwhelmed, we're here to help and support you.  Most of us simply need time to quietly reflect and come to terms with a heart that's now "working again".  Perhaps it would help to post some of the feelings you are experiencing in BetterMost?  Please keep in touch and let us know how we can help.
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Offline BBMGrandma

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 06:16:39 pm »
Dearest Straz...

Little old straight grandma here....and I went into such a 'shell' when I first experienced Brokeback...it was unreal.  That 'can of bean's' was SO very shut tight and I had NO idea how to open the lid.  I couldn't even share my shake-up with my therapist.  I was afraid she wouldn't 'get it' like I did.  When I finally gave her a little taste of what I was feeling...she listened...intently.  I STILL had to do a lot of explaining to her....about our story....the impact it had on every aspect of my life....how I was in SUCH turmoil emotionally.  It was a real challenge for both her and I!!!  Me...explaining...and her absorbing.  She finally GOT IT...and the 'beans' spilled out of that can!!  .and then I found this FORUM!!

  I swear it felt like the first time, as a child, I walked through the Magic Castle at Disneyland.  This WHOLE world opened up....magically.  I found hands to hold...hearts to listen....and friends to trust. 

I STILL....haven't spilled my guts on this forum...but I'm SURE gearing up to let it fly!!  Besides....<laughing here> Philip said....It's TIME!!   ;)  He, and all the other friends here...may WELL ask me to shut that can up...will ya?   ;D 

You've found US....Straz!!  This COULD be the 'can opener' for you too!!!  Stay with us here Straz....!!  Let US open that lid with you.  Let US hold out our plates for a serving of those 'beans' Let's sit around that campfire together...and share!!  Sharing may be a trite...overused word...but OH BOY....it SURE WORKS!!!

Much Love....Nancy   :-*
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Offline twistedude

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2006, 06:55:23 pm »
Some dry facts aboiut Wyoming in '63:

1) The zip code had just been instiututed, but nobody was using it yet. The big cities already had "Postal zone" codes (2 numbers long), and were loathe to give them ujp.  The appearance of the zip code on a postcard from Jack to Ennis (the double "honey" scenes) was about right. "73? '69? (guess the date of that trip is a bit up in the air).

2)They really fu**cked up the licence plates. "No automobile of any kind had a licence plate of more than 4 numbers and letters in 1963" (licence plate collector). The tructk that brings Ennis has 5 (plus the bucking bronco--which had been around at least since the '30s), and Jack's truck has 6...only Aguirre's car has the correct 4 digits.
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2006, 09:38:46 am »
Some dry facts aboiut Wyoming in '63:

1) The zip code had just been instiututed, but nobody was using it yet. The big cities already had "Postal zone" codes (2 numbers long), and were loathe to give them ujp.  The appearance of the zip code on a postcard from Jack to Ennis (the double "honey" scenes) was about right. "73? '69? (guess the date of that trip is a bit up in the air).

2)They really fu**cked up the licence plates. "No automobile of any kind had a licence plate of more than 4 numbers and letters in 1963" (licence plate collector). The tructk that brings Ennis has 5 (plus the bucking bronco--which had been around at least since the '30s), and Jack's truck has 6...only Aguirre's car has the correct 4 digits.

If Jack and Ennis ever used THE PHONE (which is something interesting to me that they never seemed to actually call each other, even with the incessant "Reach Out & Touch Someone" Bell System/AT&T ads all during the period), we would have gotten to also watch the transition from exchange names (like RIver 2-1234 or HIghland 7-4321) to straight digit dialing.
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Offline strazeme

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2006, 06:31:56 pm »
Long-distance calls in 1963 were relatively expensive, and were considered very special ... everyone be quiet, it's a call from California ... almost as special; as a telegram ... but that's another subject.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2006, 08:02:37 pm »
 I was a early teen in 1963 and my memories of it are that the country was still reeling from the assasination of JFK, a lot of the optimism was gone that previously existed befre that event.
 Johnson was still in the White House and working on getting the equal rights ammendment passed. The idea of gay rights wasn't even on anyones radar screen at this time.
 I would not have been surprised if Ennis and Alma would not have had a phone in their first place. Lots of people didn't have phones still in the early to late 60's. I think that would have been a luxury that they couldn't afford. Not to speak about the possibility of  long distance.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2006, 02:33:24 pm »
It's quite clear that Ennis doesn't have a phone. He had to call Lureen from a phone booth.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2006, 08:58:52 pm »
If Jack and Ennis ever used THE PHONE (which is something interesting to me that they never seemed to actually call each other, even with the incessant "Reach Out & Touch Someone" Bell System/AT&T ads all during the period), we would have gotten to also watch the transition from exchange names (like RIver 2-1234 or HIghland 7-4321) to straight digit dialing.


Oh Man, was that a blast from the past.

I remember our old phone number on Radnor Road when I  was a youngster. Lincoln 5-1126 :)

My grandmother had a party line (sometimes 2 or more families would share the same phone number). Her phone number was something like Terrace 3-1111 Ring 2.

Things sure have changed! :)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 09:03:30 pm by David925 »
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Offline Bucky

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2006, 08:21:50 pm »
While I can't remember the 1960's clearly I do remember them especially 1968 and 1969.  I can remember the political assasinations on television of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Bobby Kennedy.  I remember seeing on television the riots over Cambodia during the Vietnam War and when Nixon resigned as President and went back to California and when we evacuated from Vietnam in 1975. 

There are many things I can remember that took place during Jack and Ennis' twenty year affair but I can safely say that I can remember things far better from 1973 until 1982 than I can from 1963 until about 1970.  I was born in 1963 so I would have been just a small baby while they where herding sheep and falling in love on Brokeback Mountain.  ;D

Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2006, 09:52:50 pm »
I don't recall 1963 very clearly as I would have been about four.  Oddly enough, my first actual memory is the assassination of President Kennedy.  I recall being in the back seat of the car, when the announcement came on the radio that JFK had been shot.  I recall how frightened my mother and her sister-in-law were. 

From my perspective, in those days everyone seemed old and dressed in baggy, dowdy clothing.  As I think of it, some of those "old" people were in their mid- to late-20's!

When working in the yard (pulling weeds, working in the garden. etc.), my mother wore shorts slightly above the knee, but she always laid out a wrap-around skirt on the bed before she went outside.  Her mother highly disapproved of females of any age wearing jeans or pants of any kind.  When Mamaw would drive in, my mother would drop everything, dodge behind the bushes, run (and I mean she sprinted!) for the house to put on the wrap-around skirt.  Then she would come out as if nothing had happened.  Hmmm, she wasn't "out" about her wearing of shorts.

We lived in farm country (Indiana) and at that time, still had a crank phone on a party line, shared with at least three other households.  "Two longs and two shorts" was our "number".  Dial phones arrived pretty quickly, but my parents had a party line until around 1969 or '70.  Nearby towns had phone numbers like KLondike 3 -1234, but we went from a crank phone to seven digit phone numbers.  Until the regional phone operators were shut down, we could dial only the last four digits as long as we shared the same three digit prefix.

I've posted this at IMDb before, but long distance calling simply didn't happen. We were not without money, but "we can't call them" meant the person was long-distance.  If someone who was long-distance needed to be phoned, my parents would call a family member or friend, who would pass the message to another person, and so forth, until the message reached the final recipient.  If there was a response, the process was reversed until the message reached us.

The term "gay" meant "happy", and there was no discussion of homosexuality (or sex of any kind) in my school.  Women who had children "out of wedlock" were basically shunned.  Two unmarried men living together would have been the topic of much suspicious gossip within the community, and people would have openly stared at them in public.  They most likely would have been confronted in public with (at least) angry rhetoric.  Mailbox bashing was and still is common in that area.  The men's vehicle would most likely have been "egged" and their trees toilet papered at the very least.  Actually, I can still imagine those things happening today.  Now I'm a bit depressed.

In 1986, while my new hubby shared my apartment (after my divorce from a female), we were called to the apartment rental office.  The lady there told us two unrelated men weren't allowed to live in a one-bedroom apartment, that we would need to make other arrangements or one of us would have to move out.  I denied any wrong-doing (I didn't/don't think our living together was wrong!) and I asked to see that specific regulation on my rental contract.  Of course there was no such clause, and she reluctantly recanted.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2006, 04:29:50 pm »
Very interesting, Zoub! I also remember when President Kennedy was shot. I was at my locker in middle school, and Kirstie Alley (yes that one, she's from Wichita) came up to me and said, "Kennedy's been shot!" I was horrified, and it was because she said "Kennedy" without the "President" in front of it. Back in those days you didn't get to go home early from school because of a national tragedy, and there was no such thing as a lockdown. We just trudged on as normal.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2006, 07:34:47 pm »
I also remember when President Kennedy was shot. I was at my locker in middle school, and Kirstie Alley (yes that one, she's from Wichita) came up to me and said, "Kennedy's been shot!"

Interesting anecdote, F-R! Those of us who were cognizant then all remember when/where we heard the news, but you're the only person I know who got it from a celebrity! (Not including Walter Cronkite, of course.)

Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2006, 08:21:56 pm »
Very interesting, Zoub! I also remember when President Kennedy was shot. I was at my locker in middle school, and Kirstie Alley (yes that one, she's from Wichita) came up to me and said, "Kennedy's been shot!" I was horrified, and it was because she said "Kennedy" without the "President" in front of it. Back in those days you didn't get to go home early from school because of a national tragedy, and there was no such thing as a lockdown. We just trudged on as normal.

Sorry about the long rambling dissertation.  Ugh. 

For me, it was like the world stopped for a split second when JFK was shot.  So many people can say where they were when he was assassinated.  Just like with 9/11. I'm almost the same age as JFK Jr., and when he died I felt as if I had lost a friend, almost a brother.  Kind of stupid to feel that way, but we had grown up together albeit in different "worlds". 

I think it's very cool that you knew Kirstie Alley and that she's the one who gave you the news.  Thanks for sharing!

~Larz

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2006, 09:17:48 pm »
Sorry about the long rambling dissertation.  Ugh. 

For me, it was like the world stopped for a split second when JFK was shot.  So many people can say where they were when he was assassinated.  Just like with 9/11. I'm almost the same age as JFK Jr., and when he died I felt as if I had lost a friend, almost a brother.  Kind of stupid to feel that way, but we had grown up together albeit in different "worlds". 

I think it's very cool that you knew Kirstie Alley and that she's the one who gave you the news.  Thanks for sharing!

~Larz

I know this sounds weird because I was just a toddler when President Kennedy was shot. But I do remember it. I remember I was sitting on the floor on a blanket, and mom's laundry basket was sitting across from me. Mom was ironing and the phone rang. It was Dad and he apparently told her about the assasination and Mom became hysterical. Mom use to tell me I didn' remember it and I was confusing it with something else. But to this day, I do believe I remember it. It is one of my earliest memories.
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Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2006, 09:29:51 pm »
I know this sounds weird because I was just a toddler when President Kennedy was shot. But I do remember it. I remember I was sitting on the floor on a blanket, and mom's laundry basket was sitting across from me. Mom was ironing and the phone rang. It was Dad and he apparently told her about the assasination and Mom became hysterical. Mom use to tell me I didn' remember it and I was confusing it with something else. But to this day, I do believe I remember it. It is one of my earliest memories.

I believe you, David.  As I mentioned (in the rambly post up there) it was truly my first memory.  A few years ago I mentioned it to my mother and she had forgotten where she was at the time but later confirmed it with my aunt, who had been in the car with us.  My cousin was only three and doesn't remember it at all.  I wonder if you and I remember it because of how upset our mothers were.

~Larz

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2006, 01:52:37 am »
I think that's why I do! Only it wasn't my mother, it was my second-grade teacher. I'd never seen a teacher crying before.  :'(

Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2006, 07:10:24 am »
I think that's why I do! Only it wasn't my mother, it was my second-grade teacher. I'd never seen a teacher crying before.  :'(

Exactly!  That's just it - it was as if the adults were incapacitated by grief and shock - obliviious to everything else, even if for a short while. 

I once saw a movie (name unknown) in which they showed the shooting and ensuing pandemonium in Dallas, followed by the announcements, and adults standing on the streets watching televisions through the store window.  Men and women were crying in the streets while their children looked on, not understanding what would upset their adults so much.  The film captured it perfectly from my perspective, though I now understand some people rejoiced, since JFK was pro-racial equality, a Democrat and Catholic. 

To me, it was a detour from hope; the end of the dream that was Camelot.  Don't get me wrong - LJB did well in his own way, and I believe me meant well and was a good man, but I often wonder what the world would be like today had JFK remained in office.

~Larz

Offline fontaine

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2006, 11:20:56 am »
I was 17 in 1963 (a 60-year old straight female) and lived on the east coast where things were different than in the rural west. However, my parents best friends were two gay men--Jim & Bill. Everyone just referred to them as "the bachelors" which to me simply meant two guys who weren't married and were roommates. I don't remember anyone in the neighborhood who were all friends ever leaving them out or saying anything strange about them. Nor did being "bachelors" connote anything other than being unmarried--at least as far as I ever knew. I don't even remember any smirks or innuendos that made me wonder. Maybe it would have been different if they hadn't been such nice and friendly people. I don't know.

We moved to Maryland in the DC area when I was 9 in a garden apartment and Jim and Bill were neighbors. When we bought a house a few miles away, the house across the street was for rent and Bill and Jim rented it. So, they were family friends from '55 until Jim finally married in about '61. It wasn't until I was in college that my parents told me they were gay. Bill eventually moved back to Mississippi where he was from. I found his number and called him about 10 years ago and he'd been married for 25 years by then. I don't know what the deal was and neither I nor my parents cared. Nor did anyone else seem to.

Bill was my "go to" guy when I was a teenager. I could talk to him when I couldn't talk to my parents. Jim and Bill were always like family and often spent holidays--especially Thanksgiving--with us. Given that my Father, in particular, was from the south and regularly used the "N" word (although I never saw him do or say an unkind word to a black person), apparently neither of my parents were prejudiced against gays, nor did I get the sense that any of their friends were either because Jim and Bill were always included in all the social activities of the community.

I think I was very lucky in having grown up in such an accepting environment. However, it was also more of a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing. But people back then didn't air their personal laundry about anything--at least in groups. They did talk about their problems in private to their close friends, but not in public. It just wasn't done.

As for the times, people were more repressed in a way but things were also far more civil. People conformed more to traditions except the artistis. It was expected for them to be more "out there." There was next to no social integration along racial lines but not along educational or employment ones--at least not to the same degree. I remember my prejudiced father going up the chain of command to get one of his draftsman--a black man--a raise. I thought it odd given how prejudiced my father was but when I asked him about it, he said the guy could be purple for all he cared, he had earned the raise, and by damned, my Father was going to make sure he got it because fair was fair. And he did get it for him. By the same token, my father would never have invited this guy to a social event. Society was much more statified, especially along racial and "social class" lines but it was also much less contentious.

By the late 60s, however, all that changed. I suspect it began with Kennedy's assassination. The only thing to compare it to in terms of its impact on the country was 9/11. The entire country was in deep mourning, I don't remember anyone rejoicing about it. And even if they had, the media would never have covered it. Living in the DC area, my best friend's father took us down to the capitol and we stood in line and walked through the rotunda to pay our respects. The line and crowd were enormous and everyone was crying. There was a hopefulness in the country throughout his presidency that died when he did. Things began to change after that and by '67, the country had changed dramatically.

It was certainly fun being a part of the Woodstock generation! I wonder, however, what has happened to all those former hippies: "peace, love, and rock and roll!" It seems that far too many of them have turned into judgmental neocons. Maybe they'd have remained more tolerant had they kept smoking pot and been able to see the possibilities life had to offer!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 11:31:26 am by fontaine »

Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2006, 08:28:58 pm »
Hello Fontaine, I wish I had lived near you!  The midwest, at least in small burgs and towns wasn't nearly as accepting.  Sad really.

It's great to get different peoples' views of things back then.  I enjoyed reading your story - thanks!   ;D

~Larz

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2006, 10:56:03 am »
The midwest, at least in small burgs and towns wasn't nearly as accepting.  Sad really.

Not necessarily! Here's another happy story:

My aunt Susan, my dad's sister, now 70-something, has lived with another woman as long as I've been alive.  Susan and Dorothy like to fish, so they lived in a nice lakeside cabin on the far fringe of a big metropolitan area -- call it the exurbs, I guess -- though both held fairly high-powered, high-paying jobs in the city. My dads's family is a very friendly group, and everyone has always treated Dorothy exactly the same friendly way they treat all the other spouses. I couldn't vouch that all of my relatives are perfectly open-minded about homosexuality in general; some probably aren't. But they've never let it affect the way they treat Susan and Dorothy.

Still, nobody in the family ever talked about the nature of the women's relationship. As a kid, I just figured they was good friends who lived together simply because they hadn't found husbands. Then in my late teens, I finally got it, and asked my mom whether they were gay. (My mom and dad were long divorced by then.) My mom said she had never heard anybody mention it one way or the other.

After they retired, Susan and Dorothy moved to Dorothy's hometown -- a tiny Midwestern farm town -- and bought a big Victorian house and filled it with antiques, fixed it up real nice. Their status as a couple, though still never discussed openly, began to seem a bit more tacitly understood.

And here's the part I love. Not long after they'd arrived, my aunt decided to run for mayor. Though a newcomer to the town, Susan ran against the incumbent -- and won! Served several terms. From what I gather, she was a great mayor.

Now, Susan is extremely personable and funny and smart. I was always proud of her for this. But I was also proud of the little town, and of the Midwest. Though it might have been possible back in the '60s and '70s to just take Susan and Dorothy as roommates and leave it at that, by the '90s I don't think you could meet them without wondering if, maybe even assuming, they're lesbians. Yet they are popular and active in the town's social life (understandably; as I say they're really likable). Whatever prejudices the residents of this little town might have, they didn't let them become an issue in their relationship with Susan and Dorothy.

Susan and Dorothy have since moved out of their big Victorian house into a smaller but comfy townhouse. They spend winters in the Southwest, and have decorated their new home in Southwestern style. They travel a lot throughout the year -- they have made it their goal to visit all of the presidential libraries. They live a sweet life!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 10:58:18 am by latjoreme »

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2006, 11:19:45 am »
What a great story! I wonder if it could have been the same for a male couple.
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Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2006, 10:33:06 pm »
What a great story! I wonder if it could have been the same for a male couple.

I was thinking the same thing, Front-Ranger.

latjoreme, in general - what part of the country was this?  Sounds like some of the east is more open-minded than the midwest farm areas at that time.  Now I'm curious. 

LOL - let's map it out, shall we?   :D

~Larz

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2006, 10:43:20 pm »
latjoreme, in general - what part of the country was this?  Sounds like some of the east is more open-minded than the midwest farm areas at that time.  Now I'm curious. 

Hi Larz! Susan and Dorothy initially lived in the exurbs of Miinneapolis. They moved to a small town in Iowa, near the Minnesota border. So, definitely Midwest farm area ... although Minnesota is very blue-state and, in general, usually pretty socially liberal as well. Iowa, not as much.

But as you and Front-Ranger note, it's quite possible that two men might have had a different experience than my aunt and Dorothy.

Katherine



Offline ZouBEini

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2006, 11:38:53 pm »
Hi Katherine, I suppose it depends on the people and the communities involved.  I think it's great that your aunt and Dorothy had such a nice experience!

I love your blue state comment BTW!  It made me chuckle. 

~Larz

Offline Katie77

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2006, 05:00:18 pm »
What a great story about two wonderful women, intelligent enough to make for themselves the life that they chose to live.

I have been aquainted, a few times with a household where two women lived together, and most discusssions i have heard about them, is, are they or arent they....never quite sure, and really none of our bloody business anyway.

As ive written in a thread here before, my father was gay in the 50's and 60's...well there wasnt such a word as gay then...it was homosexual.....when it was illegal to be so, here in Australia.....and his partner changed his name by deed poll to my dads name, and they lived as brothers....their neigbours and other straight friends knew them for years and years as brothers, and never thought anything strange with them living together...
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Offline Kajunite

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2006, 04:40:22 pm »
This memories thread is bringing back some interesting memories for me.  I am 61 and went to a small school in rural Louisiana and I was not accepted by my classmates.  I had not dealt with my sexuality but I knew I was gay and I separated myself from those around me, and the others sensed that and I was somewhat of an outcast.  I still don't go to class reunions much to the chagrine of many of my classmates. 

The times were hard financially for most rural types.  But the 60's was the beginning of an awareness of and for the common person.  The news was not analyzed and discussed before then.  The Vietnam war (especially after I came back from Vietnam) brought out the protests.  This was a generation of rebellion and regeneration.  We had Vietnam war protesters; civil rights protests; the heavy drug culture (i.e. LSD); assassignations; the Cuban missile crisis and so forth, but we never got around to the gay awareness issue.  And then the 80's AIDS crisis came crushing down on the gay awareness.  This devasted the gay awareness issue.  Now in all fairness, gay awareness for the gay person was enhanced.  AIDS brought about an awareness in the gay community, but that awareness was set back horribly in mainline America. 

It is interesting, but gay awareness is moving forward at an amazing pace nowadays, and this movie plays a large role in that awareness.  I think that I am releasing a lot of anxiety and repression because of this board.  Like Ennis there was an internal lynch mob that may be thinning out a bit.  That could be from old age though.  But it is good to get rid of the little suckers! 

The differences between that time and now are numerous and I don't care to remember all of that time.  That time is to be taken in small doses.

I do think of then when I am being grateful for open discussions like this.  Is this an ole' Granny's rheumitize med'cin'?

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2006, 05:33:45 pm »
Go for it, Kaz, get out those mental kinks!
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Offline Kajunite

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2006, 09:32:42 pm »
Yeah!  Them pesky little critters sure got old!

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2006, 10:00:58 am »
I would like to hear from people older than myself about how sexuality was dealt with in society when Jack and Ennis first met, particularly because that was a few years before I was even born.  For people younger than me who have asked me about what life was like in the 1970s and even into the 1980s, it's bizarre because it doesn't seem like -that- long ago to me.

I started high school in 1963, graduated college in 1971 and took postgraduate courses for a few years after that, so my memories of the 1960s are late childhood to early adulthood.

Both 1962 and 1963 were a transition between the culture of the 1950s -- arguably an extension of the 1940s -- and the social changes that started up in the next decade.  If Ennis and Jack were 19 in 1963, they'd been what was called in those days "war babies" (i.e., born during WWII) and in a kind of generational no-mans-land right before the baby boom group. 

In 1963, as far as sexuality was concerned, it was still a very repressive atmosphere in varying degrees for everyone - gay and straight, male and female. Homosexuality wasn't a topic that was even openly discussed, especially by middle-class people, and the word "gay" didn't exist. I can't think of any terms that weren't perjorative and when homosexualiy was addressed, usually in print media, it was in the context of pathology:  neurosis, family problems, bogus "causes" such as a too-strong mother and absent father (Momism was still alive and well) or even some kind of mental birth defect.  The view films that referred to it at all, such as The Children's Hour, were hugely controversial, and anything else in the film would get eclipsed.

As far as straight sexualty was concerned, the Pill came out in the early 1960s, but talk about the 'sexual revolution' was still pretty much just talk especially for women.  It was an era when sex was actually exploited in advertising just as blatantly as today: liquor and car advertising especially.  1962 and 1963 were the last years for sex symbol archetypes like the sophisticated playboy (with James Bond being the only survivor), the blonde bombshell and the virgin-next-door. 

1963 was the last year of the "Kennedy era" (November 1963 to be exact) and there was a lot of cultural change in the air that wouldn't become visible to most people for another few years. It was the era of Martin Luther King's iconic "I Have A Dream" speech, which sort of branched out over the succeeding years like channels in a river delta, to women, religious minorities, ethnic minorities and, after Stonewall, gay people.  Too late for Ennis, in whose interior life times didn't change, or at least didn't change fast enough.

The late 1950s-early 1960s would have been a very, very rough time for Ennis and Jack to come of age sexually, especially Ennis. My first viewing of BBM, I knew the basic outlines of the story but none of the details and my immediate impression of  how Heath played him was that it was it was a take on James Dean, another icon of that era, especially in terms of body language.

Just one personal note: I was living in Atlanta in 1963, about the time it became an epicenter of the civil rights movement, and the feeling of being on the cusp of history was particularly strong there.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 10:03:55 am by Marge_Innavera »

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2006, 02:12:54 am »
Phillip...an answer to your questions would take up more space than "War and Peace", and it would also depend on the part of the country.  I lived in the rural south until the age of ten, and from my "rememberances", never did I hear the word "homosexual" ("gay" had not yet become part of the lingo), because the general populace did not know what a homosexual was.  In 1963 I was a junior in college, in the Los Angeles area, and it was a time when America was in sexual turmoil; I was called "fag" and "queer" because they were the 2 most offensive term in the English language, but it did not derail me.  In mid-1964 I entered the Air Force and was stationed in SW Texas, and Roswell, NM untill early 1967.  It was in Roswell that I met the man whom I would love for what I thought would be forever, but being military, I had to keep a low profile; being in a small rural community, D. had to keep a lower one.  We had our circle of friends, male and female, and life was great, as long as no one found out about our sex lives. D. did not fear public ridicule, as Ennis does, but he did go out of his way a lot to make sure the proper image was adherded too; I too, as it was not of the era "don't ask, don't tell".  In 1967 I went to a new duty station in Alaska, but it was not a sad thing as there were telephones and stamps, and I would only be gone a short 15 months.  Being gay in Alaska was extremely difficult as we had no place to meet our own kind, and were stuck indoors from mid-Sept through mid-May, but in spite of those circumstance, "gayness" fluorished, but not without consequences.  Two months after I left the military, 150 officers and enlisted men were "rounded up" in a sting, and the roommate of a young man I was seeing from time to time (D. and I had an understanding) was responsbile, to further his own welfare.  I returned to L.A. in mid-1968 and it appeared that nothing, in terms of being gay, had changed...it was more tolerated than accepting, but beatings and murder were ofter the price of coming out, even in L.A. I prepared myself to return to Roswell and try to decide what D. and I would do as far as our future together.  It was not to be....D., roommate Mike, Mike's lover (and my friend) Jerome, and friend of all of us,  were returning from Albuquerque from a 4th of July weekend trip.  Just 35 miles north of Roswell their car was hit head-on by a drunk driver, killing all 4.  That's why "He Was A Friend Of Mine"  hit me so hard when I heard it at the end of BBM.

After a long time of mourning I got on with my life.  The gay climate in the 1970s began to change; we were still "fags" and "queers", but now we were more public with it, and we  began to fight back, no longer being perceived as weak individuals, but now a strong group.  Disco came and went; HIV/AIDS came and stayed.  I had many more relationships, 2 lasting several years. I was also one of the lucky many who did not get this horrible disease (and to this day I will slap the s*** out of anyone who calls it God's revenge on gays for being gay!)  But I've never forgotten D., and like Ennis, I have a simple, meanngful reminder of a love cut short....2 birthstone rings we gave each other for our birthdays after our 2nd year together (we had the same birth month and day, but not year, and neither of us knew the other was getting the ring, so it was a major surprise.)

We have made major strides in acceptance in major cities, but I fear not so much in the smaller towns like Roswell and Riverton.  And I hope that by the time I close my eyes for the last time we will have made some more major strides forward, and that more and more people will understand how love works....it doesn't matter whom you love but that you love and are loved in return.

 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2006, 02:19:36 am by [email protected] »

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2006, 02:56:10 am »
God. The memories.

Your post brought back many memories for me... both good and bad.

Somehow I had forgotton what it was like... what we went through.

It was beautifully written. Thank you for posting it for us to read 2Robots.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2006, 09:23:04 am »
And may I add a simple "Amen"?

Thanks, 2robots. Everyone should read your post.
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2007, 08:32:19 am »
Gotta go ta work - wanna be able ta find this thread later

Think I got somethin ta add (Life magazine, circa 1965 - Gays in America) gonna do some research & get back ta ya

Btw, this thread has been dormant for a long time - once you get beyond the "where where you when Kennedy died" posts, there are some facinatin reads here!
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2007, 05:42:02 am »

Btw, this thread has been dormant for a long time - once you get beyond the "where where you when Kennedy died" posts, there are some facinatin reads here!

I was especially touched by the first post by BBMGrandma.  And, unlike you, those Kennedy posts are meaningful for me. 

In 1963 I was 3 1/2 to 4 1/2.  I spent the 60s in New York City, in Manhattan.  Like Phillip said, I didn't get it that Paul Lynde or Truman Capote (or Rock Hudson) were gay.  I didn't even get that one of my best male friends in high school was gay, even though he was pretty stereotypically willowy, gentle, smart, soft. 

I understood my own crushes and sexual urges toward a few other girls better, but that was because of the women's rights movement, which did a lot of good education for me about lesbians.  It helped me understand kind of where I was on the spectrum, but that was more in the 70s.  Men didn't have a gender rights movement yet then.

The early 60s in New York could still be pretty formal.  I remember in my very early childhood my mother still wore white gloves sometimes, and girdles, and never pants, which were called slacks.  It would have been vulgar to call them pants.  And then of course things changed rapidly, and it was all Judy Carne and Peter Max.  Somehow I think all that wasn't Ennis and Jack's experience.  :)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2007, 06:15:27 am by Ellemeno »

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2007, 06:21:11 am »
I was especially touched by the first post by BBMGrandma.  And, unlike you, those Kennedy posts are meaningful for me. 


I only meant that those "Where were you when Kennedy died" posts were not germaine ta the question at hand. Felt that this thread was about the status, or degree of acceptance a gays in those revolutionary days.

I'm a little older'n you and remember when my teacher told me 'bout it, and it might a been an interestin whole other thread, but when I started readin this thread, I was hopin fer first hand experiences a the gay experience, and those posts are distractin reads in that context - already heard 'nough a the Kennedy comments, while the other kind are harder ta find.

BTW, spent the better part of an hour yesterday lookin fer the book & the photocopies of the Life magazine on Homos, but still haven't found em. Really don't know where ta look anymore. But when I find 'em, I'm sure they'll be able ta provide some mighty fine quotes for this thread.
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injest

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2007, 07:54:48 am »
so what was school like for you, Roland? When and how did you deal with your sexuality then?

you were in your teens (early) then weren't you? how much were you aware of other gay people? Where did you grow up

you have shared some with me, but I think you would be doing good to offer some here for others to hear.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2007, 08:03:51 am »
so what was school like for you, Roland? When and how did you deal with your sexuality then?

you were in your teens (early) then weren't you? how much were you aware of other gay people? Where did you grow up

you have shared some with me, but I think you would be doing good to offer some here for others to hear.

Yer openin a can a worms there, that I don't have time ta spread out (cause I'm short a time this time a the day)

But you made me think a my grade school years. Spent a lot a time with my two same-age cousins ( both female born with a month a each other). Could skip rope, couldn't catch a ball, played in the girls school yard mor'n the boy's, coudn't skate (yea, a canadian boy who can't skate!) or fight!

Spent most a my elementary school years (ta grade 8 ) bein known as "fifi" - implyin "little girl" - was rough - and that was before puberty

Told ya it was quite a can a worms - I'm not yet 14 in this post yet!, but I gotta go!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 08:27:39 am by Sheriff Roland »
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injest

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2007, 08:25:53 am »
Yer openin a can a worms there, that I don't have time ta spread out (cause I'm short a time this time a the day)

But you made me think a my grade school years. Spent a lot a time with my two same-age cousins ( both female born with a month a each other). Could skip rope, couldn't catch a ball, played in the girls school yard mor'n the boy's, coudn't skate (yea, a canadian boy who can't skate!) or fight!

Spent most a my elementary school years (ta grade 8 ) bein known as "fifi" - implyin "little girl" - was rough - and that was before puberty

Told ya it was quite a can a worms - I'm not yet 14 in this post yet!, but I gotta go!

you don't have to share more than you want to, Roland.

But it speaks a lot to how we treat people doesn't it. I dont remember it being any different when I was growing up a decade later. Boys have a really hard time. SO much pressure.

Speaks to the early years of Ennis and Jack. The need to try to fit in. To be tough enough that people DIDN'T tease or question them

Edit note: sorry Jess - hadta edit the emoticon outa yer quote - the Sheriff
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 08:31:02 am by Sheriff Roland »

Offline Katie77

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2007, 10:02:28 am »
I was 12 in 1963 and in the grip of Beatlemania....loved those four mop tops from Liverpool England, and read every word published about them.

Interestingly though, never once read anything about the fact that their manager Brian Epstein was gay. Was viewing a biography on the Beatles only yesterday, and a lot was said about Epstein, and the fact that he had a huge crush on John Lennon, and there were questions about whether him and John ever "did it".

Amazing how, even though there was so much publicity on the Beatles, all the gay stuff never got mentioned back then.
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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2007, 10:06:26 am »
Life was great for me...three squares a day, slept as much as I wanted to, went to the bathroom whenever I wanted...could throw up on anyone without getting hit...course I was 2.

Offline Kelda

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2007, 10:22:08 am »
posting so I can find later.

I cannot add as I was born in 1981 but am interested in reading this thread!
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2007, 10:32:03 am »
Udate:

Bryan has em, both the book that lead me to the article, and the photocopy of the Life magazine special issue on Homosexuals in America dated 1965. But I haven't seen Bryan in over a week!

Patience ... I'm sure there'll be nuggets worth quoting from those articles.
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Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2007, 12:08:34 pm »

Amazing how, even though there was so much publicity on the Beatles, all the gay stuff never got mentioned back then.

Not only was the "gay stuff" never mentioned back then, neither was the "straight stuff" in terms of all their sexual conquests, the groupies, the drugs, the all night sex orgies with scores of women. All these things occured. to a somewhate lesser extent, the same was true, apparently, with President Kennedy. But, nothing of substance was ever publicized.

There were no National Enquirer's back then and the mainstream media simply did not delve into those parts of celebrity life or lives of the average people. Such human behavior was considered by the conventional wisdom folks to be on the 'dark side' of activity and was left pretty much untouched. That was an era of Father Knows Best, Donna Reed, Andy Griffith, and My Three Sons. Gay subjects were not "outed" but everything else was pretty much off limits as well.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2007, 01:32:13 pm »
Life was great for me...three squares a day, slept as much as I wanted to, went to the bathroom whenever I wanted...could throw up on anyone without getting hit...course I was 2.

Lucky you. If I'd thrown up on anyone at age 2, I'd have gotten spanked.

I did get spanked once when I had an "accident" because my mother didn't get back inside from hanging up the laundry in time to help me use the potty chair. Talk about injustice!  :laugh:
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2007, 01:57:07 pm »
How do you guys remember back to age 2??

Gay awareness started to happen with "glam rock" in the late 1970s. It was fashionable for men to wear makeup and be bisexual...if you were a rock star anyway!! That was when David Bowie became Ziggy Stardust.

There were lots of gays and bis in the crowd I used to hang with in the 1970s. But it was a crowd of actors, artists, musicians, theater people, and waitpersons (mostly the latter LOL).

I recently read John Schlesinger's reminiscences as an openly gay movie director. His movie, the X-rated Midnight Cowboy, won Best Picture in 1968. Some of the gay parts of the movie were excised or toned down but other parts were preserved.

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Offline Kd5000

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2007, 02:03:43 pm »
I always think of the early 1960's as being a continuation of the 1950's. JFK's assassination put an end to that time period and the 1960's really began in earnest.  However, even in 1963,  I gather there were rumblings of upcoming social upheaval as integration was front and center.   1963 is before my time and I'm glad I wasn't around for "Camelot" so to speak.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2007, 09:03:57 pm »
Not only was the "gay stuff" never mentioned back then, neither was the "straight stuff" in terms of all their sexual conquests, the groupies, the drugs, the all night sex orgies with scores of women. All these things occured. to a somewhate lesser extent, the same was true, apparently, with President Kennedy. But, nothing of substance was ever publicized.

There were no National Enquirer's back then and the mainstream media simply did not delve into those parts of celebrity life or lives of the average people. Such human behavior was considered by the conventional wisdom folks to be on the 'dark side' of activity and was left pretty much untouched. That was an era of Father Knows Best, Donna Reed, Andy Griffith, and My Three Sons. Gay subjects were not "outed" but everything else was pretty much off limits as well.


in addition, even the word "gay" was not used by mainstream to refer to homosexuals. It existed within the clandestine world of the era, but the vast amount of population did not used this term. 'gay' at that time still meant happy. Men who were bachelors and believed to be homosexual were often referred to as "he's funny" or "he's different". Gay broadened to general use much later.

Offline Katie77

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2007, 09:36:59 pm »
I remember going to the movies to see Midnight Cowboy the day after it won the Academy Award, and because I was familiar with homosexuality, I was aware of the theme that was hidden in the movie, but I'm sure a lot of people didnt back then.

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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2007, 09:59:44 pm »
How do you guys remember back to age 2??

Gay awareness started to happen with "glam rock" in the late 1970s. It was fashionable for men to wear makeup and be bisexual...if you were a rock star anyway!! That was when David Bowie became Ziggy Stardust.

There were lots of gays and bis in the crowd I used to hang with in the 1970s. But it was a crowd of actors, artists, musicians, theater people, and waitpersons (mostly the latter LOL).

I recently read John Schlesinger's reminiscences as an openly gay movie director. His movie, the X-rated Midnight Cowboy, won Best Picture in 1968. Some of the gay parts of the movie were excised or toned down but other parts were preserved.



 
Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars was awesome.  The '70's rocked. 
Originally, Im from the Jersey Shore and my best friend's dad owned a huge hotel and bar.  We hung around there a lot.  At night the guys in the band wore make up, long hair and  sparkly platform shoes.  They were too cool.

But something you said brings back something i remember so vividly and have often think about, my mom and dad singing "Orange Juice on Ice is Nice"  from the movie Midnight Cowboy.  I was 9 and still think of it when i drink  my orange juice always with ice.  hehehe

Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #56 on: February 15, 2007, 12:01:36 am »
How do you guys remember back to age 2??


I remember President Kennedy's assassination and I wasn't quite 2 years old when it happened. But I do remember it. Mom always told me I was thinking about something else. I never could convince her otherwise. I guess I remember it because it was so traumatic for my parents. It scared me.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2007, 09:37:10 am »
I remember President Kennedy's assassination and I wasn't quite 2 years old when it happened. But I do remember it. Mom always told me I was thinking about something else. I never could convince her otherwise. I guess I remember it because it was so traumatic for my parents. It scared me.

It was very scary for a small child. You didn't know what it all meant. I was 5 years old--lined up for dismissal from afternoon kindergarten when the school principal made an announcement over the public address system--and I was scared, couldn't wait to get home to my mother. I remember thinking it meant the Russians were coming!
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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2007, 11:50:28 am »
I was not a small child then...you guys are making me feel ancient! But I was a naive girl in junior high school, and the person who told me about the assassination was Kirstie Alley, who was in my class. 

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2007, 11:55:49 am »
It was very scary for a small child. You didn't know what it all meant. I was 5 years old--lined up for dismissal from afternoon kindergarten when the school principal made an announcement over the public address system--and I was scared, couldn't wait to get home to my mother. I remember thinking it meant the Russians were coming!

I was 13, very immature for 13 even at that time, and had used a slight cold as an excuse to stay home that Friday and finish some kind of book report I'd been putting off, so I wouldn't have to work on it over the weekend. The first thought I remember having when it came on the TV was "this is the end of my childhood." And it was. It was like a door slamming.

In the story, Ennis and Alma are married in December of 1963; in the movie it's in November. In the movie version, they married either right before the assassination happened or right after. If it was right after, or December, they married at a time when the country was in a huge upheaval and on the cusp of some very big changes.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2007, 12:02:18 pm »
I always think of the early 1960's as being a continuation of the 1950's. JFK's assassination put an end to that time period and the 1960's really began in earnest.  However, even in 1963,  I gather there were rumblings of upcoming social upheaval as integration was front and center.   1963 is before my time and I'm glad I wasn't around for "Camelot" so to speak.

IMO, much of the 1950s carried over into the early 1960s but it was a transitional era. The big issue at that point, and had been since the late 1950s, was racial integration and getting rid of Jim Crow laws.  If you can find some of the pro-segregationist rhetoric of that time, it's remarkably similar to anti-gay arguments today. The attitudes toward interracial marriage - referred to at that time as "miscegenation" - are very close to identical, right down to the "I'm not bigoted but it would be bad for the children" schtick.

Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2007, 06:53:12 am »
I was 15 in 1963 and got my first job then; working on a sheep ranch in the Cascade Mountains (Packwood WA). Just looking after ewes while the lambs had their tails docked. But an over-riding theme for a young man in the 60's was the Draft. It was a major issue for me and for my own clandestine lover; we had a hell of a struggle to keep the Draft board at bay and anytime a policeman saw a lad of our age, he'd check our draft-cards and harrass me for my "1-Y" status. In BBM, in 1963 Jack says, "...if the Army don't get me." and in 1967 Ennis says, "Army didn't get you?" But what about Ennis' status? Was he somehow exempt?
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2007, 07:38:28 am »
In BBM, in 1963 Jack says, "...if the Army don't get me." and in 1967 Ennis says, "Army didn't get you?" But what about Ennis' status? Was he somehow exempt?

Ennis was already engaged to Alma in summer 1963, married a few months later and Junior was on the way shortly after the wedding. In my country married men, let alone family fathers were not drafted. I read somewhere that it was the same in the US back in the sixties.

If this was an additional reason for Ennis to get married? To avoid getting drafted?

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2007, 09:05:29 am »
Ennis was already engaged to Alma in summer 1963, married a few months later and Junior was on the way shortly after the wedding. In my country married men, let alone family fathers were not drafted. I read somewhere that it was the same in the US back in the sixties.

If this was an additional reason for Ennis to get married? To avoid getting drafted?

I was born in '61 and remember the Vietnam War through my grammer and middle school years, and I never heard that a young man could avoid the draft if he got married.
 
I think if that was the case, there wouldn't have been draft dodgers running off to Canada and what not.  American boys would just get married..   No, that would be too easy a way to avoid the draft.

It is a good question though.  Why didn't Ennis think about being drafted himself?  I have wondered about that too.


Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2007, 11:57:02 am »
I knew quite a few married boys who got drafted, although I think the rules changed from year to year, becoming increasingly harder to avoid as the need for more soldiers grew.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2007, 07:26:59 pm »
I knew quite a few married boys who got drafted, although I think the rules changed from year to year, becoming increasingly harder to avoid as the need for more soldiers grew.

This question came up--somewhere--some time ago. I believe married men received a different draft classification from single men.
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Offline fernly

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2007, 08:46:07 pm »
Short answer - married men were protected from the draft until Oct.1965, after that it was married men with dependent children.
I knew several men who utilized these protections. 

Longer article about draft deferments as seen through the experience of our vice-president is here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?action=post;msg=130773;topic=6914.0;sesc=5e939b023b99f2cd504ab62903adc652
(points relevant to Jack and Ennis are italicized)
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2007, 10:47:13 am »
Short answer - married men were protected from the draft until Oct.1965, after that it was married men with dependent children.
I knew several men who utilized these protections. 

Longer article about draft deferments as seen through the experience of our vice-president is here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?action=post;msg=130773;topic=6914.0;sesc=5e939b023b99f2cd504ab62903adc652
(points relevant to Jack and Ennis are italicized)

Thanks, Fern! I think we have our answer here.

Ennis married Alma in November (film)/December (story) 1963. Alma, Jr., was born in September 1964 (story). So first Ennis was a married man, and then by the time the rules changed (Oct. 1965), he was a married man with dependent children.
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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2007, 07:33:18 pm »
The mystery solved, and very a very interesting piece of American history..

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2007, 07:50:01 pm »
Did anybody else wear a POW bracelet and army jacket besides me? 

I still get teary thinking of our boys over in that hell hole of a place.

First time I ever got high was with a couple Viet Nam vets who musta just got home.  It was back in 1972.

I started my experimentation with drugs early in life.   Goes to show you why I dont do it anymore.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2007, 09:04:29 pm »
Did anybody else wear a POW bracelet and army jacket besides me? 

I still get teary thinking of our boys over in that hell hole of a place.

First time I ever got high was with a couple Viet Nam vets who musta just got home.  It was back in 1972.

I started my experimentation with drugs early in life.   Goes to show you why I dont do it anymore.


What the heck were you doing getting stoned at age 11? In 1972 that was almost unheard of. Must have been quite a situation for you; hope everything is OK.

the POW bracklet and the amy jacket stuff (we called it a cpo) kicked about 1970ish after Kent State and the Cambodian invasion. When the Democrat convention riots occured in 1968, it was the trigger that started much of the widespread anti war sentiments and activity. during 1969 and early 1970, things kept moving ahead in terms of anti war movement, but Cambodia and kent state were huge trigger points that catapulted the movement into its more famous/infamous modes.

the early anti war efforts were actually quite preppy-ish and yuppy-ish. It really got its beginning at the U of Michigan were the SDS was founded and of course the weatherman faction. Many of these students were elite children of priviledge and wealth who went radical for a variety of reasons in the immediate post-kennedy era of 1963-64.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2007, 09:48:15 pm »
What the heck were you doing getting stoned at age 11? In 1972 that was almost unheard of. Must have been quite a situation for you; hope everything is OK.

the POW bracklet and the amy jacket stuff (we called it a cpo) kicked about 1970ish after Kent State and the Cambodian invasion. When the Democrat convention riots occured in 1968, it was the trigger that started much of the widespread anti war sentiments and activity. during 1969 and early 1970, things kept moving ahead in terms of anti war movement, but Cambodia and kent state were huge trigger points that catapulted the movement into its more famous/infamous modes.

the early anti war efforts were actually quite preppy-ish and yuppy-ish. It really got its beginning at the U of Michigan were the SDS was founded and of course the weatherman faction. Many of these students were elite children of priviledge and wealth who went radical for a variety of reasons in the immediate post-kennedy era of 1963-64.

Thanks for the concern and yes i was very young to be smoking pot at age 11.  None of my friends were doing it, and i might add none of the friends i choose to be with now do it either.  I am fine now.   As for the army jacket it wasnt a cpo,  it was actually a green jacket probably came from one of those second front stores so popular back then.  We didnt have stoned washed jeans as they do today.  We actually bought other ppls old used worn out jeans and stuff.  We would also actually wear our jeans till they had holes him them, then used colorful materials to sew patches on them.  oops a lil off topic sorry.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2007, 11:11:06 am »
OK, truth be told my sister was a hippie and i idolized her.  :)

Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2007, 12:26:15 pm »
It was a much better time. Less social problems than we have today. When I have more time I will go into specifics.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2007, 12:48:10 pm »
It was a much better time. Less social problems than we have today. When I have more time I will go into specifics.

Also less social equality - not such a 'better time' fer some!

I was either a criminal - or a medically sick and treatable homosexual, who could be arrested for being who I was

Not such a 'better time', if you see it from my point a view
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2007, 12:58:43 pm »
Welcome Tommydreamer. Have a cuppa coffee, won't you? Piece of cherry cake?

Of all times, we could say, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." I get sentimental for the 60s and 70s sometimes, but there was plenty to despise about those times. However, it is important not to be lulled into the notion that things are getting better and better all the time. During the past few years, there has been increasing puritanism and conservatism in the U.S., the Middle East, and some other places. It reminds me of the reign of Savanarola after the flourishing of the Renaissance, when works of art, philosophy, music, etc. perished in the "Bonfire of the Vanities."
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2007, 01:09:11 pm »
Lee, I too think that the music was much better then, and the doors ta the house didn't hafta be locked.

But ain't no way that the muslim world is worse off now than it was then --- and in spite a the recent strength gatherin a the far right (in the states) there is NO WAY that the way of life of the 60's and 70's can ever be revisited in the western world. just 10 years ago, the discussion was not about equality in marriage, but protection against hate crimes and fiveyears ago we were just beginning ta get used ta equal adoption rights. Yes there could be an erosion a basic rights in the western world as a result a 9/11, but ain't no way blacks or gays, or women will ever see the inequalities and downright extensive socially accepted bigotry that was common in those 'better days'.

Economically too, the western world at least, is not likely ta return ta the deprivation days that were the norm then. At least not in the near future.
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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2007, 01:26:17 pm »
omg i had thoughts of other woman and lesbians starting way back to the sixties.  i was a child.   then in the seventies i wouldnt dare come out.  Too much fear of being considered outcast..labeled or something

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2007, 01:34:28 pm »
omg i had thoughts of other woman and lesbians starting way back to the sixties.  i was a child.   then in the seventies i wouldnt dare come out.  Too much fear of being considered outcast..labeled or something


it was sad really.   On the other hand, kids today especially girls starting in high school even younger are more then socially accepted to have relationships with other girls. 

i love my women today.   ;)  mmmm so much fun!

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2007, 05:16:56 pm »
it was sad really.   On the other hand, kids today especially girls starting in high school even younger are more then socially accepted to have relationships with other girls. 

i love my women today.   ;)  mmmm so much fun!

but even in that I see a degree of discrimination. Look at any porn video...the idea of two women together has always been at the top of men's sexual fantasies. Those same teenage girls (if seen to ONLY go with girls are in as much danger as ever) BIsexuality in girls is much more acceptable.


Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2007, 05:42:52 pm »
but even in that I see a degree of discrimination. Look at any porn video...the idea of two women together has always been at the top of men's sexual fantasies. Those same teenage girls (if seen to ONLY go with girls are in as much danger as ever) BIsexuality in girls is much more acceptable.



And it worries me greatly, but i have to remember the baby steps for gays and lesbians like legalized same sex marriage in Mass and RI recognizing those marriages, New Jersey legalizing civil unions, the adoption issue progress, and two birth mothers listed on the birth certificates of babies.   

I'm not saying its not dangerous for these young woman to be out.  I am the mother of a teenage lesbian who wants the whole damn world to know.  Its not easy but we need some acceptance here...and it starts with us....fuck porn.  there is all kinds of sick porn that strikes peoples interests no matter how twisted.  Yes men find two woman getting off hot, but hey the FNIT and SNIT was hot too..and I'm a woman...

so we can debate the issue if you wish.  I'm all for it.  But to be honest if it wasn't for this site and BBM I wouldn't have the outlet i need to get through what i go through.  Thanks for your opinion jess. 

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2007, 08:27:24 pm »
?? I wasn't arguing or opposing anyone. Just wanting to call attention to a facet you may not have thought of.


Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2007, 08:46:56 pm »
Easy there Sheriff, it may have been a tough time for you by why do I have to express my displeasure for a period of time I treasured

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2007, 08:54:03 pm »
Also less social equality - not such a 'better time' fer some!

I was either a criminal - or a medically sick and treatable homosexual, who could be arrested for being who I was

Not such a 'better time', if you see it from my point a view



MUCHO BETTER TIME

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2007, 08:56:30 pm »



MUCHO BETTER TIME

what do you mean Tommy??

tell us about YOUR 60s...

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2007, 09:14:51 pm »
what do you mean Tommy??

tell us about YOUR 60s...

Yes tommy we are interested..  do tell

Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2007, 09:24:28 pm »
what do you mean Tommy??

tell us about YOUR 60s...

The early sixties were full of hope. The country was happy! People had good healthy fun and life was less hectic. The music was more romantic than the foul mouthed garbage that some call "art". Our country was strong, but still had a healthy innocence. The country produced "things" not services and lawyers. Doctors made house calls. Ambition, not greed and deceit was the great rewarder. Overpopulation was not an issue. Nature abounded.

My sixties was a time where I grew up to a new brand of rock and roll; the sound of motown, daytime baseball games; burgeoning football leagues; SCHOOL TRIPS TO A FACTORY IN A MAJOR CITY!; a parent at home. Playing for long hours after school OUTDOORS, not on a couch. Not having to fear about being outdoors. Coming of age. First girlfriend! First concert! First for almost everything!

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2007, 09:32:43 pm »
very cool tommy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2007, 09:35:56 pm »
very cool tommy

Thanks,

I will chat with you folks tomorrow.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2007, 08:39:31 pm »
A number a posts ago, I said I'd try an dig up the LIFE magazine's 1965 issue that dealt with 'Homosexuals in America today'. Here's the openin couple a paragraphs of this multiple article, multiple page view of gays, as portrayed by a very popular magazine of the times.

A secret world grows open and bolder. Society is forced to look at it - and try to understand it

These brawny young men in their leather caps, shirts, jackets and pants are practicing homosexuals, men who turn to other men for affection and sexual satisfaction. They are part of what they call the "gay world," which is actually a sad and often sordid world. On these pages, LIFE reports on homosexuality in America, on it's locale and habits (pp. 66-74) and sums up (pp. 76-80) what science knows and seeks to know about it.

Homosexuality shears across the spectrum of American life - the professions, the arts, business and labor. It always has. But today, especially in big cities, homosexuals are discarding their furtive ways and openly admitting, even flaunting their deviations. Homosexuals have their own drinking places, their special assignation streets, even their own organizations. And for every obvious homosexual, there are probably nine nearly impossible to detect. This social disorder, which society tries to suppress, has forced itself into the public eye because it does present a problem - and parents especially are concerned. The myth and misconception with which homosexuality has so long been clothed must be cleared away, not to condone it but to cope with it.


If interest there is, I will continue ta reprint, (I'm a slow typer) in the next few(?) days, the articles that reveal quit a lot about the times, and their perception of gays in the mid 60's. (sorry if there are typos in the article - I do try ...)
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2007, 09:43:33 pm »


the caption ta the photo reads:

"A San Francisco bar run for and by homosexuals is crowded with patrons who wear leather jackets, make a show of masculinity, and scorn effeminate members of their world. Mural shows men in leather"
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 09:46:58 pm by Sheriff Roland »
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #91 on: February 26, 2007, 01:06:20 am »

The ‘Gay ’ World takes to the City Streets                by Paul Welsh        --> from LIFE magazine circa 1965     (part 1 of 5)


In New York City, swarms of young college-age homosexuals wearing tight pants, baggy sweaters & sneakers cluster in a ragged phalanx along Greenwich Avenue in the Village. By their numbers and by their casual attitude they are saying that the street – and the hour – is theirs. Farther uptown in the block west of Time Square, on 42nd Street, their tough-looking counterparts, dressed in dirty jackets and denims, loiter in front of the cheap movie theatres and sleazy bookstores. Few of the passers-by recognize them as male hustlers.
 
*By Chicago’s Bughouse Square, a small park near the city’s fashionable Gold Coast on the North Side, a suburban husband drives his car slowly down the street searching for a ‘contact’ with one of the homosexuals who drifts around the square. A sergeant on Chicago’s vice squad explains: “these guys tell their wives they’re just going to the corner for the evening paper. Why, they even come down her in their slippers!”

*In Hollywood, after the bars close for the night, Selma Avenue, which parallels Hollywood Boulevard, becomes a dark promenade for the homosexuals. Two men approach one another tentatively, stop for a brief exchange of words, then walk away together in the shadows that reach out beyond the street lights. The vignette is repeated again and again until the last homosexual gives up for the night and goes home.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Homosexuality – and the problem it poses – exists all over the U.S. but is most evident in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, New Orleans and Miami. These large cities offer established homosexual societies to join, plenty of opportunities to meet other homosexuals on the streets, in bars or at parties in private homes, and, for those who seek it, complete anonymity. Here, tolerance, even acceptance by the ’straight’ world is more prevalent than in smaller communities. Where the gay world flourishes and presents so many social compensations, even the persistent pressure of antihomosexual (sic) police operations can be endured. Also, in the big cities those professions favored by homosexuals – interior decorating, fashion design, hair styling, the dance and theatre – provide the most numerous job opportunities.

Homosexuals can find some or all of these advantages in many parts of the U.S. but, because of its reputation for easy hospitality, California has a special appeal for them. In the city of San Francisco, which rates as the ‘gay capital’, there are more than 30 bars that cater exclusively to a gay clientele. The number of these bars changes from week to week as periodic police drives close them down (their life expectancy is about 18 months). Some bars, like the Jumpin’ Frog, are ‘cruising’ (pick-up) bars, filled with coatless young men in tight khaki pants. They spend the evening standing around (there are few seats in ‘cruising’ bars) drinking inexpensive beer and waiting. As each new customer walks into the dimly lit room he will lock eyes with a half dozen young men before reaching his place at the bar. Throughout the evening there is a constant turnover of customers as contacts are made and two men slip out together, or individuals move on to other bars in search of better luck, As closing time – 2 am – approaches, the atmosphere grows perceptively more tense. It is the ‘frantic hour,’ the now-or-never time for making contact.

In contrast to the ‘cruising’ bars are the gay cocktail lounges, some of them just off the lobbies of the cities better hotels. They are frequented by local businessmen and out-of-town visitors plus occasional innocent heterosexual travelers.

A step or two from the cocktail lounges are the ‘gay’ bars where a single personality draws the customers. Until it closed recently, the Backstage was one of the town’s most popular because of  José Sarria who entertained regularly on Sunday afternoons. Sarria winds up his routine – an interpretation of Salome – standing in full ‘drag’ (dressed and made up like a woman) and shouting to the audience: “All right you nellie queens, on your feet! United we stand, divided they’ll catch us one by one!”As San Francisco self-styled ‘dowager queen,’ José has achieved a certain notoriety – in 1961 he openly ran for city-county supervisor and polled almost 6,000 votes.

In San Francisco’s Tenderloin off Market Street, are the bottom-of-the-barrel bars where outcasts and misfits of all kinds hang out. Their bedraggled clientele include dope pushers and users, male and female hustlers. Most of the customers have been ‘busted’ (arrested) at least once. Here one finds the stereotypes of effeminate males – the ‘queens’ with orange coiffures, plucked eyebrows, silver nail polish and lipstick. There may be a man or two in ‘drag,’ a few Lesbians, some ‘gay’ prostitutes, drunks and cheap con men.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry folks - it's a long article - will try and write more tamarow - gotta hit the hay!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 07:44:45 pm by Sheriff Roland »
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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #92 on: February 26, 2007, 01:20:18 am »
Roland...you are really giving us a unique view into the 1960s mindset. That line...Homosexuality - and the problem it poses - kinda sums up the attitude of so many people ...

just amazing. We HAVE come a long way...even if we have a ways still to go.

Thank you for taking the time and putting out the effort to share with us.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2007, 10:05:41 am »
Howdy, Sheriff!

Thanks so much for excavating that piece of our past. Even though we may have a long way to go, we've also come a long way.

I get a big kick out of that phrase, "practicing homosexuals." Sorta reminds me of the old joke about how you get to Carnegie Hall. Anyway, I'm gonna keep practicing till I get it right. ...  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #94 on: February 26, 2007, 05:56:42 pm »
thanks Jess and Jeff. the article continues as follows:
_______________________________________________________________________

disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

The ‘Gay ’ World takes to the City Streets                by Paul Welsh                       (part 2 of 5)

________________________________________________________________________

On another far-out fringe of the ‘gay’ world are the so-called S & M bars (‘S’ for sadism and ‘M’ for masochism). One of the most dramatic examples is in the warehouse district of San Francisco. Outside the entrance stand a few polished motorcycles, including an occasional lavender model. Inside the bar, the accent is on leather and sadistic symbolism. The walls are covered with murals of masculine-looking men in black leather jackets. A metal collage of motorcycle parts hands on one wall. A cluster of tennis shoes – favorite footwear of many homosexuals with feminine traits – dangles from the ceiling. Behind it a derisive sign reads: ”Down with sneakers!”

“This is the antifeminine (sic) side of homosexuality” says Bill Ruquy, part owner of the bar. “We throw out anybody who is too swishy. If one is going to be homosexual, why have anything to do with women of either sex? We don’t go for the giddy kids.”

Metal is much in evidence in the room chains on the wall, the collage and bunches of keys hanging from their customers’ leather belts. “That’s part of the sadism business,” Ruquy explains. “We use to wear chains on our shoulders. Now the keys are in.”

The effort of these homosexuals to appear manly is obsessive – in the rakish angle of the caps, in the thumbs boldly hooked in belts. Ryquy says, “This is a place for men, a place without all those screaming faggots, fuzzy sweaters and sneakers. Those guys, the ones you see in other bars, are afraid of us. They’re afraid to come here because everything looks tough. But we’re probably the most genteel bar in town. ”

_______________________________________________________________

The hostility of the minority leather crowd towards the rest of the ‘gay’ world is exceeded by the bitterness of the individual homosexuals towards the ‘straight’ public. One junior advertising executive, who has been under a psychiatrist’s care spills out his rancor.

“I have to make believe all day long. If we go out for lunch, I go through the same complimenting and flirting routine with girls that you ‘straight’ fellows do. I have to be constantly on my guard not to do or say something that will make them suspect I’m ‘gay.’

“At night I have to get out and forget it. I don’t like to go to ‘gay’ bars night after night, but I’ll tell you what I do like to do. I like to go to ‘straight’ bars, find some guy with a good-looking girl and take her away from him. I couldn't be less interested in the girl, but it’s a way to get even.”

____________________________________________________________________

There are many homosexuals better adjusted than this young executive, who behave like solid members of the community. They hold good jobs in business, the professions or the arts. Many of them have apparently strong heterosexual relationships, get married and have children. They go to church, engage in civic activity, see their psychiatrists. They are there in unmeasured numbers, involved in some degree in homosexuality. The only difference between them and the ‘straight’ world is the fear of exposure and their troubled consciences.

There are also the ‘respectable’ homosexuals who pair off and establish a ‘marriage,’ often transitory but sometimes lasting for years. Unburdened by children and with two incomes, they frequently enjoy a standard of living they otherwise would not be able to attain. Recently such a ‘couple’ entertained at Sunday brunch in a New York suburb. Their country home – they also rent an apartment in the city, where both work – is a contemporary ranch house, with swimming pool. The hosts were a self-made businessman and the manager of a fabric salon. Their guests included a stockbroker, a TV actor, a couple of New York advertising men and a leading fashion designer.

In contrast to the homosexuals who avoid all public identification with other homosexuals are those who join ‘homophile’ organizations. A recent phenomenon in American society, the homophile groups actively conduct programs to increase public understanding of homosexuality in the hope of getting more sympathetic treatment, particularly from law enforcement agencies.

One of the earliest and most active homophile club, the Mattachine Society was started in 1950 as a secret organization by a group of Los Angeles lawyers, ministers and doctors, not all of whom were homosexuals. But by 1954 it had become incorporated as a nonprofit, educational group and branches had spread to other cities. Mattachine branches are now located in Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York and Washington D.C. and are independent of each other. Their common aim is to promote the acceptance of homosexuality by society.

In San Francisco, for example, The Mattachine Society operates much as a social agency: it helps homosexuals find jobs in the city, gives them legal advice when they get in trouble with the law and serves as a liaison with police and health departments. The Washington D.C. Mattachine Society however, functions much as a lobbying group. It has challenged what it considers to be discriminatory practices against homosexuals in Civil Servant jobs and in the armed forces. It has enlisted the aid of the American Civil Liberties Union in specific cases involving homosexuals and government agencies including the first such case to reach the Supreme Court.


__________________________________________________________________________

Will probly be back with another installment before the end a the day

Sheriff Roland
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 07:45:52 pm by Sheriff Roland »
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2007, 07:58:39 pm »
The effort of these homosexuals to appear manly is obsessive – in the rakish angle of the caps, in the thumbs boldly hooked in belts. Ryquy says, “This is a place for men, a place without all those screaming faggots, fuzzy sweaters and sneakers. Those guys, the ones you see in other bars, are afraid of us. They’re afraid to come here because everything looks tough. But we’re probably the most genteel bar in town. ”

I find that comment about the leather bar being "the most genteel bar in town" very interesting. I've read that "back in the day," the leather scene had a very rigid code of "etiquette"--as funny as that may sound--and that comment from someone who owned a leather bar back in the Sixties I think tends to support that point.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #96 on: February 26, 2007, 08:49:35 pm »
at least two more long instalments to go, after this one.
_______________________________________________________________________

disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

The ‘Gay ’ World takes to the City Streets                by Paul Welsh                       (part 3 of 5)
_________________________________________________________________________

One Incorporated, another homophile organization formed in Los Angeles in 1952, publishes a monthly, One Magazine, mailed to subscribers throughout the country and sold in newsstands. One Inc basically is involved in education and propaganda. It has an education division called the ‘One Institute of Homophile studies’ which offers courses designed to give parents, ministers, doctors, lawyers, psychologists, sociologists and the public an understanding of homosexuality and homosexual.

These formal homophile groups share the same problems – small memberships, insufficient funds and the hostile atmosphere in which they try to promote their cause. Although membership rolls of various societies are held confidential, homosexuals are reluctant to join simply because they fear that their names may reach the hands of the police.

Homosexuals everywhere fear arrest – and the public exposure that may go with it. In Los Angeles, where homosexuals are particularly apparent on city streets, police drives are regular and relentless. The running battle between police and homosexuals has produced bitter feelings on both sides. Leaders of homophile societies in Los Angeles and San Francisco have accused the police of “harassment, entrapment and brutality” towards homosexuals.
Actually there is no law in California – or in any other state – against being a homosexual. The laws which police enforce are directed at specific sexual acts. For the most parts, these laws make it a crime for two people to engage in any sex activity which could not result in procreation.

It is also unlawful in California to solicit anyone in a public place to engage in a lewd act. Under these laws, the police are able to make arrests. In many cases a conviction results in a homosexual being registered as a ‘sex offender’ (along with rapists) in the state of California.

Inspector James Fisk says that the 3,069 arrests for homosexual offenses made in Los Angeles last year represents merely a ‘token number’ of those that should have been made. “We’re barely touching the surface of the problem” Fisk says. “The pervert is no longer as secretive as he was. He’s aggressive and his aggressiveness is getting worse because of more homosexual activity”
________________________________________________________________________
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 07:46:36 pm by Sheriff Roland »
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #97 on: February 26, 2007, 10:19:26 pm »


     Thank you very much Roland for posting this entire series..I think that
this is the kind of information that this site should be providing.  It gives
real insite to the situation, as it is was and has been.  Maybe these types of
informed notices, can do a great deal toward making people aware of things
that can help the future to be informed and more fairminded..It should
be a subject made aware to all the young men and women that have need.
Thanks again for this timeless and knowledgeable post.      janice



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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2007, 05:55:49 pm »
Thank you Janice. It's a long one today, and the last one too will be long. Then I'll start on the second article that deals with the 'scientific study' of homsexuality ...
_______________________________________________________________________

disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

The ‘Gay ’ World takes to the City Streets                by Paul Welsh                      (part 4 of 5)
_________________________________________________________________________________

As part of the antihomosexual (sic) drive the Los Angeles police force has compiled an ‘educational’ pamphlet for law enforcement officers entitled ‘Some Characteristics of the Homosexual.’ The strongly opinionated pamphlet includes the warning that what the homosexuals really want is ‘a fruit world.’

In their unrelenting crackdown on homosexuals, the Los Angeles police use two approaches: one is an effort to deter homosexual activity in public, and the other is an arrest effort. The first includes patrolling, in uniform, rest rooms and other know loitering places such as Selma Avenue. The police go the rounds of the ‘gay’ bars to make their presence felt. To arrest homosexuals, the police have an undercover operation in which offers dressed to look like homosexuals - tight pants, sneaker, sweaters or jackets – prowl the streets and bars. The officers are instructed never to make an overt advance, they can only provide an opportunity for the homosexual to proposition them. Arrests are made after the officer has received a specific proposition.

In a typical arrest effort in Hollywood this spring, a plain-clothed officer loitered under the streetlight at the corner of Sunset Boulevard and Stanley Avenue. Soon a car slowly turned the corner onto Stanley and the officer drifted into the darkness down the block. When the car pulled over to the curb, the officer (Jim) approaches it. After a few minutes of idle talk the driver establishes that his name was Jerry. He lives many blocks away but Jim indicates that he himself had a ‘place on Wilcox’ (actually the police station.) Part of the conversation, which the officer would enable him to make an arrest, went like this:


Officer: “What’s on your mind after we get home? That’s what I want to know.
Jerry: Well, what’s on your mind?
Officer: Well … I don’t know.
Jerry: “You don’t?
Officer: Well that is to say (laughs) … there isn’t anything to drink at my place, you know.
Jerry: Well, I can always drink coffee. I don’t drink anything stronger.
Officer: Uh huh … Well, anything else…?
Jerry: Anything Else?
Officer: I said, is there anything else?
Jerry: To drink?
Officer: No.
 Jerry: No?
Officer: I was just wondering … maybe … what else you had in mind, if anything.
Jerry: (sighs deeply) At this point I don’t care.
Officer: Well, I don’t know exactly how to take that.
Jerry: Well … how do you want it to go?
Officer: Like I say, it’s up to you, Jerry.
Jerry: Well, you call it and … we’ll go from there. I’m your guest … self invited.
Officer: Well … I know, but … I wouldn’t want to be a presumptive host, you might say in other words, a good host always looks out for the welfare of his guests. You understand? So … I’ll leave it up to you.
Jerry: Well … we can just let the chips fall where they may or forget it.
Officer: I always say, if you know what you want and aren’t man enough to ask for it, why then to heck with it. You know? (laughs)
Jerry: Yeah, I know.
Officer: Well, there’s no use wasting any more of your time or mine I guess, Jerry?
Jerry: Well, I don’t know. It’s up to you.
Officer: You don’t know? What’s the matter, are you afraid?
Jerry: Well, Isn’t everybody?
Officer: I’m not afraid of you.
Jerry: I don’t know you and you don’t know me.
Officer: Well, that’s true, but still and all, I’m not, although, maybe I should be. I don’t know. You’re not a policeman, are you?
Jerry: No.
Officer: Well, you could be.
Jerry: So could you
Officer: Well, that’s true. I understand they have a whole lot of plainclothesmen, so I don’t know what to think sometimes. But that’s why you got to be kinda careful.
Jerry: Uh huh … it pays …
Officer: You understand of course
Jerry: So maybe we should just drop it at that.
Officer: Oh? Well …
Jerry: I mean (laughs) we’re both getting on the leery (sic) side.
Officer: Yeah … Well so long Jerry. I won’t take any more of your time.”


The police officer had decided that the encounter was not going to reward him with an arrest. Jerry drove away and the officer went back to work on the corner.

Although the antihomosexual (sic) stand taken by the Los Angeles Police is unswervingly tough, it reflects the attitude of most U.S. law-enforcement agencies on the subject. Yet within the past decade this position has been criticized by legal and religious groups – here and abroad – which has asked for more social and official tolerance of homosexuals. They frequently quote the ‘Wolfendon Report,’ the famous statement on homosexuality made in 1957 by a British government committee headed by Sir John Wolfendon. The committee recommended that Britain change its sex laws so that ‘homosexual behavior between consenting adults in private should no longer be a criminal offense.’ In its argument, the committee held the view that ‘there must remain a realm of private morality and immorality which is, in brief and crude terms, not the law’s business.

The position of the Wolfendon committee has since been supported by spokesmen from various religions. A group of Quakers in Britain challenged the view that homosexuality is immoral. In a pamphlet titled ‘Towards a Quaker View of Sex.’ Published in 1963, it was suggested that society ‘should no more deplore homosexuality than lefthandedness (sic). … Homosexual affection can be as selfless as heterosexual affection and therefore we cannot see that it is in some way morally worse …’

A Catholic viewpoint, which does not condone homosexuality but does regard it as a psychological problem has been provided in a book ’Counselling (sic) the Catholic” written for U.S. parish priests by Father George Hagmaier, C.S.P. and Father Robert Gleason, S.I. The book makes the point that in order to ‘bring one’s activity into accord with objective morality, one need knowledge and one needs freedom defect in either will normally imply some lessening in responsibility.’ The authors conclude that because they are subjected to this psychological disturbance, homosexuals do not have this freedom.

______________________________________________________________________________
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 07:38:49 pm by Sheriff Roland »
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2007, 06:24:48 pm »




A Catholic viewpoint, which does not condone homosexuality but does regard it as a psychological problem has been provided in a book ’Counselling (sic) the Catholic” written for U.S. parish priests by Father George Hagmaier, C.S.P. and Father Robert Gleason, S.I. The book makes the point that in order to ‘bring one’s activity into accord with objective morality, one need knowledge and one needs freedom defect in either will normally imply some lessening in responsibility.’ The authors conclude that because they are subjected to this psychological disturbance, homosexuals do not have this freedom.[/i]
______________________________________________________________________________


I was born and raised Catholic. Everyone in my family and my extended family is Catholic. Catholicism has been in my family for centuries. But I stopped attending Mass several years ago. I couldn't take it anymore. The Catholic Church has taken part in many shitty crappy deals for a millennium, maybe longer, and yet they have the audacity to look me straight in the eye and condemn me for who I am and the way God created me.  >:(

The nerve!  >:(

And yet, I still struggle with it. Sometimes I really do question myself and my sexuality. I ask myself questions like "Am I really going to go to Hell when I die"? "Does my sexuality really offend God"?

I guess this is what happens after 40 years of Catholic teachings being beat into a person day after day and year after year.

The Catholic church needs to get its own priorities in order before they start condemning me for mine!  >:(  >:(

I'll never go back to Mass again.  >:(
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 06:28:28 pm by David »
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2007, 06:50:57 pm »
David - I'm catholic too, but I'm a thinking catholic. The church is and has been often wrong and behind the times. It's viewpoint today is not what it was as posted in this article (written over 40 years ago). Granted, the current viewpoint of the Church on homosexuality is still far behind the times (at least by western current thought) - It still views us as inappropriate role models, who shouldn't teach - especially Physical Education(!!), and we are to be pitied, not hated. And our sexual drives are suppose to be additional temptations with which we are suppose ta constantly battle. Of course they're wrong wrong wrong!!! But the church did teach you valuable humane values which you can continue to cherish (and you do - I've read your posts - many of yer 3 000+ post shows you've learned to be a good persons.

Just continue to be a thinking catholic - accepting some teachings, discarding others.
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2007, 07:42:57 pm »


disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

The ‘Gay ’ World takes to the City Streets                by Paul Welsh                      (part 5 of 5)

_______________________________________________________________________

Many of the recommendations of the Wolfendon Committee were adopted by the American Law Institute when it wrote a model penal code. In 1961, Illinois based a redraft of its penal code of the American Law Institute’s paper which in effect, says that a person’s private sex life is none of the law’s business. An explanation note in a draft of the Illinois code states that it ‘is not intended to prescribe any sexual conduct between consenting adults unless such conduct adversely affects one of the key interests sought to be protected.’ The ‘key interests’ specifically in mind were preventing the use of force and child exploitation, public sensitivities and the family institution.

Other states, including New York and California, currently are considering penal code revisions similar to Illinois’. But in Florida early this year the Legislative Investigation Committee’s consideration of homosexuality produced an inflammatory report, calling for tougher laws to support the conclusion that ‘the problem today is one of control and that established procedures and stern penalties will serve both as encouragement to law enforcement officials and as a deterrent to the homosexual (who is) hungry for youth.’ Its recommendations would make psychiatric examination of offenders mandatory and create a control file on homosexuals which would be available to public employment agencies throughout the state. The report, which included an opening-page picture of two men kissing and photographs of nude men and boys, was so irresponsible that it brought attacks from the Dade County state’s attorney and the Miami Herald, which described it as an ‘official’ obscenity.

Florida’s attempt to brand homosexuals in order to prevent their being hired in the state has been a long-standing policy with many government agencies. As a result of a 1953 presidential executive order, homosexuality is an absolute bar to security clearance by the federal government. The Department of Defense lists a variety of reasons why it considers sexual deviates poor security risks: they are far more subject to blackmail than heterosexuals, they are emotionally unstable and therefore less reliable keepers of secrets.

There is no psychological evidence to support the DOD’s contention that ‘the weakness of their moral fiber’ makes homosexuals as a group more susceptible to the blandishments of foreign agents. However, FBI and security agency experience does substantiate the charge the homosexuals are particularly subject to blackmail - for fear of exposure which can lead to social ostracism and loss of job.

Homosexuals are unwelcome in the armed forces, where forced segregation of the sexes develops more pressure for deviate activity (as it does in prisons). Many homosexuals are drafted for the service – and quickly weeded out when they have been identified. Homophile groups have protested the unfairness of the system that forces a man into military service and then rejects him with ‘less-than-honorable’ or ‘dishonorable’ discharge because of a psychological condition over which he has no control. But a DOD official explains the policy: “If we didn’t throw them out, we’d be condoning homosexuality. The services’ position has to be that homosexual practices prejudice morale and discipline.”

Civil Service regulations – which governs 93 per cent of federal employes (sic) – states that a person is unsuitable for government employ if he is guilty of ‘criminal, infamous, dishonest, immoral or notoriously disgraceful conduct.’ The Civil Service Commission maintains that homosexuals can be a disruptive influence in a government agency, that a homosexual in a position of influence is likely to bring other homosexuals onto government services, and that where security is necessary, they are a greater risk than heterosexual co-workers. When the commission has evidence that an employe (sic) or prospective employe (sic) is a homosexual, he is denied a job – or fired – for immoral conduct.’
____________________________________________________________________

A recent legal challenge to the commission’s stand was made by a homosexual who was denied a Civil Service job although he had passed tests for three personnel and management positions. With the backing of the American Civil Liberties Union, the man went to court, charging that the government has on grounds of personal immorality, denied him a job for which he was qualified.

David Carliner, chairman of the board of the Capital area A.C.L.U., which is handling the case, points out that his organization is ‘not taking a position on homosexuality. We are arguing that qualifications for government employment should be related to the nature of the employment and the employe’s (sic) experience and ability to do the job. A majority cannot deny a person certain rights. We concede that homosexuality is considered immoral in this country. But the notion of immorality is a very vague one. This puts the government in the position of being Big Brother in passing judgment on other people’s behavior. It is a rather awesome power to pass on someone’s morality.’

For the first time the Supreme Court has agreed to hear the homosexual’s case, which it will probably consider when the court reconvenes in October. But no legal procedures are likely to change society’s basic repugnance to homosexuality as n immoral and disruptive force that should somehow be removed. Today, as homosexuals become more visible to the public, there is a need for greater knowledge about them. What science has found outs discussed in the article following.

________________________________________________________________________________
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Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2007, 10:06:06 pm »

disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

The ‘Gay ’ World takes to the City Streets                by Paul Welsh                      (part 5 of 5)

_______________________________________________________________________

Many of the recommendations of the Wolfendon Committee were adopted by the American Law Institute when it wrote a model penal code. In 1961, Illinois based a redraft of its penal code of the American Law Institute’s paper which in effect, says that a person’s private sex life is none of the law’s business. An explanation note in a draft of the Illinois code states that it ‘is not intended to prescribe any sexual conduct between consenting adults unless such conduct adversely affects one of the key interests sought to be protected.’ The ‘key interests’ specifically in mind were preventing the use of force and child exploitation, public sensitivities and the family institution.

Other states, including New York and California, currently are considering penal code revisions similar to Illinois’. But in Florida early this year the Legislative Investigation Committee’s consideration of homosexuality produced an inflammatory report, calling for tougher laws to support the conclusion that ‘the problem today is one of control and that established procedures and stern penalties will serve both as encouragement to law enforcement officials and as a deterrent to the homosexual (who is) hungry for youth.’ Its recommendations would make psychiatric examination of offenders mandatory and create a control file on homosexuals which would be available to public employment agencies throughout the state. The report, which included an opening-page picture of two men kissing and photographs of nude men and boys, was so irresponsible that it brought attacks from the Dade County state’s attorney and the Miami Herald, which described it as an ‘official’ obscenity.

Florida’s attempt to brand homosexuals in order to prevent their being hired in the state has been a long-standing policy with many government agencies. As a result of a 1953 presidential executive order, homosexuality is an absolute bar to security clearance by the federal government. The Department of Defense lists a variety of reasons why it considers sexual deviates poor security risks: they are far more subject to blackmail than heterosexuals, they are emotionally unstable and therefore less reliable keepers of secrets.

There is no psychological evidence to support the DOD’s contention that ‘the weakness of their moral fiber’ makes homosexuals as a group more susceptible to the blandishments of foreign agents. However, FBI and security agency experience does substantiate the charge the homosexuals are particularly subject to blackmail - for fear of exposure which can lead to social ostracism and loss of job.

Homosexuals are unwelcome in the armed forces, where forced segregation of the sexes develops more pressure for deviate activity (as it does in prisons). Many homosexuals are drafted for the service – and quickly weeded out when they have been identified. Homophile groups have protested the unfairness of the system that forces a man into military service and then rejects him with ‘less-than-honorable’ or ‘dishonorable’ discharge because of a psychological condition over which he has no control. But a DOD official explains the policy: “If we didn’t throw them out, we’d be condoning homosexuality. The services’ position has to be that homosexual practices prejudice morale and discipline.”

Civil Service regulations – which governs 93 per cent of federal employes (sic) – states that a person is unsuitable for government employ if he is guilty of ‘criminal, infamous, dishonest, immoral or notoriously disgraceful conduct.’ The Civil Service Commission maintains that homosexuals can be a disruptive influence in a government agency, that a homosexual in a position of influence is likely to bring other homosexuals onto government services, and that where security is necessary, they are a greater risk than heterosexual co-workers. When the commission has evidence that an employe (sic) or prospective employe (sic) is a homosexual, he is denied a job – or fired – for immoral conduct.’
____________________________________________________________________

A recent legal challenge to the commission’s stand was made by a homosexual who was denied a Civil Service job although he had passed tests for three personnel and management positions. With the backing of the American Civil Liberties Union, the man went to court, charging that the government has on grounds of personal immorality, denied him a job for which he was qualified.

David Carliner, chairman of the board of the Capital area A.C.L.U., which is handling the case, points out that his organization is ‘not taking a position on homosexuality. We are arguing that qualifications for government employment should be related to the nature of the employment and the employe’s (sic) experience and ability to do the job. A majority cannot deny a person certain rights. We concede that homosexuality is considered immoral in this country. But the notion of immorality is a very vague one. This puts the government in the position of being Big Brother in passing judgment on other people’s behavior. It is a rather awesome power to pass on someone’s morality.’

For the first time the Supreme Court has agreed to hear the homosexual’s case, which it will probably consider when the court reconvenes in October. But no legal procedures are likely to change society’s basic repugnance to homosexuality as n immoral and disruptive force that should somehow be removed. Today, as homosexuals become more visible to the public, there is a need for greater knowledge about them. What science has found outs discussed in the article following.

________________________________________________________________________________


Hey Sheriff, that 5 part post was great. Fortunately or unfortuntely depending on your feelings towards age, I remember Life magazine vividly. In fact I have many back editions. The articles like the one you reprinted really illustrate the "mindset" of many in America. The ads too as you probably know speak volumes about our society then.

I was just wondering, can you get these past articles on-line or do you have to purchase them etc. The one you posted was fascinating and I would like to read others on this topic and probably any other topic too.

My recollections of 1965 were just enriched by your article. I think of 1965 as the start of the real Johnson administration, the beginnings of the Viet Nam cloud over his presidency, race riots, and in general a shift towards the start to the "sixties revolution".

My first recollection of major news stories with respect to gay issues was either 1968 or 1969 (sorry my memory slips) but it pertained to the horrible Stonewall Riot.

I guess what I am driving at is, while I have lived through alot compared to our younger posters, I would love to re-read society's perspective back then as it compares to todays viewpoint which can easily be found on-line.

Any help would be appreciated. Regardless the old Life magazine article you already posted was fascinating and greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2007, 10:59:58 pm »
The article that I've retyped was a one shot deal - on homsexuality, and there's another, nearly as long article to follow (taken from the same issue of Life Magazine).

I do not know if LIFE magazine is available online: this / these articles I heard about through a leatherfolk book published in the late 90's. I found the old LIFE magazines on microfilm in the reference library here in Toronto back then (late 90's) and kept the photocopies I made nearly 10 years ago. If you live in a large city, it is quite likely that a similar collection of socially revealing parts of history is archived in yer part a the world.

As for Stonewall, here's how Wikipedia starts it's "definition": "The Stonewall riots were a series of violent conflicts between New York City police officers and groups of gay and transgendered people that began on June 28, 1969, and lasted several days."

Glad yer enjoying reading the article I've already retyped, and I hope it was also informative as to what I was talking about in my first response to your "rosy" remembrance of "What Was Life Like in 1963", as the title of this thread asks.
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Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2007, 07:48:29 am »
Been typin again this mornin - started the second article from the watershed LIFE magazine issue. This one portrays itself as bein based on the best scientific evidence of the day.
_________________________________________________________________________

disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

Scientists search for the answers to a touchy and puzzling question: WHY?       by Ernest Havemann       (part 1 of 4)

Do the homosexuals, like the communists intend to bury us? Yes indeed, suggested a startling front-page story in the New York Times and other newspapers last month. A committee of the highly respected New York Academy of Medicine has come to the conclusion that American homosexuals want far more than to be tolerated and even more than being ungrudgingly accepted. Their true goal, said an academy report, is to convince the world that homosexuality is a ‘desirable, noble, preferable way of like’ – the secret of the greatness of ancient Greece and in modern times a ‘perfect answer to the problem of the population explosion.’

The Academy report, and the newspaper stories it inspired, is just another example of the confusion and downright ignorance that surrounds the entire subject of the nature, cause and extent of homosexuality. The Academy Committee was dead wrong. Only a tiny minority of U.S. homosexuals would ever beat the drum so sensationally for their way of life. Far more of them regard their homosexuality as an affliction. The lot of the homosexual, as the photographs and article on the preceding pages have shown, is often furtive, hazardous and lonely. Many homosexuals have gone t psychiatrists begging desperately for help in escaping from a life that they had decided was intolerable. Most homosexuals, far from seeking recruits, actually refuse to have anything to do with a man who has never had previous homosexual experience.

Says Dr. Paul Gebhard, successor to the late Dr. Alfred Kinsey as director of the institute for Sex Research: “Almost nobody chooses to become a homosexual. More than nine times out of ten a man becomes homosexual for the sole and simple reason that he cannot help it. Perhaps the only exception are young men who move to the big city like New York And Los Angeles and by chance find themselves thrown in with fellow workers or neighbors who belong to the ‘gay’ society. Their new companions provide friendship and flattery and sometimes money as well. A good-looking lazy luxury-loving young man who likes to be told who has artistic talent may find himself sponging off the gay world financially and emotionally, until he wakes up in middle age committed to the life but no longer attractive to his former benefactors – not unlike an aging party girl in the other kind of society.
_______________________________________________________________________

There are of course some homosexuals who specialize in seducing young boys. But they are decidedly a minority group: they are the least homosexual of all homosexuals, less active than the others, and far more likely to be married. So of them go through most of their lives not even aware of their homosexuality until at last their tendency bursts out in an incident which often results in their exposure and ruin. The others who are fully aware of their feelings about boys tend to be lone wolves who stay away from the gay society and indeed would be shunned by it. The boys they seduce are seldom lured into the homosexual life, at least not for long.

If almost nobody becomes a homosexual by choice, what then accounts for homosexuality?

Part of the answer seems to be in the fact that all mammals, humans included, are born with an innate capacity to respond to almost any kind of sexual stimulus. Zoologist observe homosexual behavior in nearly every species of animal, anthropologists find it in human societies from New York City to the South Seas and historians find records of it in the civilizations of the past (Among the noted confirmed homosexuals of history have been Plato, Michelangelo,  Leonardo Da Vinci, and probably Alexander the Great.) On our own American scene, there seems to be a good deal more homosexual activity than anybody suspected or was willing to admit before the Kinsey report was published in 1948.

According to this report, nearly half of all boys engage in some kind of homosexual play before they reach adolescence; even after adolescence slightly more than a third of them have at least one homosexual experience at some time in their lives. The Kinsey report, of course, has had many critics, including scientists who are convinced that a disproportionately high percentage of homosexually inclined men volunteered for the Kinsey study as the word was spread along the grapevine, and that therefore the figures are too high. But even if the figures are sharply discounted, they still point to a considerable amount of homosexual experimentation.

Dr. Gebhard and his present associates at the Institute for sex Research believe that given mankind’s innate nature and our present social customs and moral codes, this is only to be expected. Boys become sexually mature – and indeed reach the very height of their sexual capacity and interest - in their adolescent years. They are discourages from making any outright sexual overtures to girls, and as a matter of a fact few girls that age are interested in sex anyways. On the other hand boys are thrown together intimately on athletic teams, in boarding schools and in summer camps. An older man who takes a homosexual interest in a boy is often encouraged by parents who fail to understand the real nature of his solicitude. The adolescent has to repress his burning sex drive towards girls, but has considerable opportunity and temptation to turn it into homosexual channels. In a sense, nature and society combine to encourage homosexuality – and ironically, do so most of all among the boys who, in strictly sexual terms, are the most masculine. Numerous studies have shown that boys who mature earlier and have the strongest sexual drives and capacities are the likeliest to experiment with homosexuality and to adopt it as a way of life.
_______________________________________________________________________
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2007, 11:28:38 pm »
Wow, Roland, I just caught up on this thread and read your postings. Very sobering. A disturbing reminder of those old attitudes.

It's amazing, those phrases like "homosexuality -- and the problem it poses," as if in and of itself it's a problem, or "There are also the ‘respectable’ homosexuals who pair off," with the "respectable" in quotations to show that, well, a homosexual can't hope to be really, truly respectable.

It's also interesting that the article focuses almost exclusively on men.

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2007, 11:46:29 pm »
I've just gotten around to reading this thread, and I wanted to comment on some of the comments dated in mid Feb.

Re:  Draft...married men with dependent children were not protected from the draft.  My best friend with a 5 month old child was drafted and sent to Viet Nam immeidately.  Full-time college students were exempt for a while...there was a lot of controversy over who was and who wasn't exempt, and that helped started the exodus to Canada.

RE:  Pow braclets...I did wear one for a short time.  My POW, a Chief Warrant Officer, was declared dead about 8 months later, and I sent the braclet to his family.

RE:  The  CPO jacket mentioned was actually a Navy coat, made of heavy material and came down to about mid-thigh, usually for colder weather wear.  We, of the Air Force had one which came to just below the knees, weighed a ton, and was nick-named "Big Bertha".  It was for wear only with the Dress Blues.  I believe the Army jacket mentioned was what is called a "Field Jacket", lightweight, and became a popular item with the younger generation after the Viet Nam vets returned home.  Many are still around today, and I see them everytime I go to the VA Hospital in San Diego.   

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2007, 10:16:38 am »
I've just gotten around to reading this thread, and I wanted to comment on some of the comments dated in mid Feb.

Re:  Draft...married men with dependent children were not protected from the draft.  My best friend with a 5 month old child was drafted and sent to Viet Nam immeidately. 

Does anybody know what role local draft boards had--if any--in who got sent? And if they had a role, did it change over time? There was a mention in one of Fernly's posts that the rules changed.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2007, 02:14:05 pm »
Re:  Draft...married men with dependent children were not protected from the draft.  My best friend with a 5 month old child was drafted and sent to Viet Nam immeidately.  Full-time college students were exempt for a while...there was a lot of controversy over who was and who wasn't exempt, and that helped started the exodus to Canada.

That is such an incredibly classist policy. Who's more likely to be in college? Wealthier men. Who's more likely to have dependent children? I'd guess poorer men. (I'm not absolutely sure of the statistics back then, but I have no doubt that wealthier men nowadays are more likely to reproduce later.)

And it doesn't make sense on any moral or logical grounds. What will be harder for a man to catch up on after returning from the war -- the remainder of his college education, or his children's childhood? Who will be grieve more deeply if the man doesn't make it back at all? The employees of the university registrar's office, or his children?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2007, 02:34:22 pm »
That is such an incredibly classist policy. Who's more likely to be in college? Wealthier men. Who's more likely to have dependent children? I'd guess poorer men. (I'm not absolutely sure of the statistics back then, but I have no doubt that wealthier men nowadays are more likely to reproduce later.)

And it doesn't make sense on any moral or logical grounds. What will be harder for a man to catch up on after returning from the war -- the remainder of his college education, or his children's childhood? Who will be grieve more deeply if the man doesn't make it back at all? The employees of the university registrar's office, or his children?

Ever hear the phrase, "A rich man's war and a poor man's fight"? Ain't right, but thus has it ever been and maybe is likely to remain, barring universal conscription. Vietnam led to outcries over it, but even today, I suppose, who is more likely to volunteer for the all-volunteer army, the college president's child or the child of the college cafeteria worker?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2007, 04:20:13 pm »
Ever hear the phrase, "A rich man's war and a poor man's fight"? Ain't right, but thus has it ever been and maybe is likely to remain, barring universal conscription. Vietnam led to outcries over it, but even today, I suppose, who is more likely to volunteer for the all-volunteer army, the college president's child or the child of the college cafeteria worker?

Yeah, I didn't mean I was surprised by the existence of conscription classism. But I was surprised by its blatancy in that policy, and the fact that people accepted it. And even today is right -- Michael Moore exploited that class division to good effect in Fahrenheit 911 when he ambushed senators and congressmen to ask whether they had children in the war. People who volunteer for service tend to be those who otherwise have few career or education options.

I'm always a little startled whenever I hear of someone who wasn't poor (or even middle-class) who fought in Vietnam, like Al Gore or John Kerry.

As you probably alread know, in Civil War days, rich people were allowed to buy their way out of the draft. So poor people got mad, started a riot and -- what else?  :-\ -- attacked black people. The pecking order in action.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2007, 05:41:27 pm »
As you probably alread know, in Civil War days, rich people were allowed to buy their way out of the draft.

Indeed. I've never done the research to verify the story, but supposedly I have a great-great-grandfather on my mother's side who did just that, when he was called up when Lee invaded Pennsylvania. Supposedly he paid a neighbor a certain sum of money--I forget how much--and the best horse in the barn to take his place. With four daughters and no sons and no one to work the farm in his absence, it probably seemed a better deal than getting shot at for the Union.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #112 on: March 01, 2007, 06:02:27 pm »
disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

Scientists search for the answers to a touchy and puzzling question: WHY?       by Ernest Havemann       (part 2 of 4)_____________________________________________________________________

Yet homosexual experience, like a vaccination, may take or may not. Some boys seem to be so susceptible that a single experience sets them in a lifetime pattern. Others engage in considerable experimentation yet never really take up the homosexual way of life. All in all, the number who do become confirmed homosexuals is quite small. What distinguishes these men from the others?

Dr. Gebbard, who takes a common-sensical rather than psychoanalytical view of the problem, is convinced by the case histories in his files that ‘mere chance often plays an almost frightening part.’ A bad case of acne, a stammer or unusual shyness may make a boy so unwanted in the world of boy-meets-girl that he quickly embraces the other world. (Many a homosexual affair, another expert points out, is an alliance between two men who both consider themselves ‘social cripples’.) In other cases, says Dr. Gebbard, social pressures prove crucial. Some boys feel so guilty about any kind of homosexual feelings or acts that they feel forever ostracized from the rest of society and can only cling to the gay world. Some come under the community’s suspicion or are actually caught, them, after they have been branded as homosexuals, they find it impossible to get a date with a girl and cannot return to the standard pattern of sexual and social life. But over and beyond the influences of happenstance and society, says Dr. Gebbard, there seems to be little question that some boys are predisposed to homosexuality. All medical and psychiatric authorities agree.

Our great-grandfathers, when they dared think about the problem at all, believed that homosexuality was inherited… some men were just born ‘queer,’ with a woman’s disposition in a man’s body, they constituted a third sex,’ which was an aberration of nature. This view was based largely on the mistaken notion, still held by many people, that all homosexuals have effeminate, ‘swishy’ manners and would like nothing better, if only they could get away with it, than to dress like woman, pluck their eyebrows and use lipstick. In actual fact, there are many effeminate men who are not homosexual at all – and indeed the Institution for Sex Research has even found that some transvestites, men who like to dress in women’s clothes, are happily married and lead perfectly normal sex lives. On the other hand, says the Institute, fully 85% or more of homosexuals look and act much like other men and cannot be spotted for certain even by the experts. Often the only signs are a very subtle tendency to over-meticulous grooming, plus the failure to cast the ordinary man’s customary admiring glance at every pretty girl who walks by.

___________________________________________________________________________

Modern tests of physical characteristics and glandular secretions have shown no recognizable differences between homosexuals and other men yet out great-grandfathers may have been partly right at that. Franz Kallman, a German analyst, once manages 40 men, all homosexuals who had identical twin brothers. In every case, the twin also turned out to be a homosexual even though the brothers had never confided in each other and had sometimes grown up apart from each other – so possibly there is some kind of inborn pattern of glandular activity or brain function not yet recognizable by any test thus far developed which predestines some men for homosexuality.

The psychoanalysts who have observed and treated many homosexual patients over the years believe that homosexuality represents a form of arrested development. Most children, though born with an indiscriminate impulse towards affection that does not distinguish between men and women, or even between human beings and other animals soon learn to concentrate it on another human being of the opposite sex. Some do not. Sigmund Freud, the founder of analysis, theorized that this could happen in a number of ways, closely related to the stages of growth through which the analysts believe every child must pass.

_______________________________________________________________________

In the earlier years, through what analysts call the narcissistic period, the child’s emotions and interests are totally centered around his own magical and adored self. If he does not completely outgrow this infantile stage said Freud, he may only be able to love a person as much like himself as possible, hence a person of the same sex. A little later in what the analysts call the Oedipus phase, the baby boy becomes aware of other people and promptly falls in love with the closest one at hand, his mother. If the strange conflicts of this period are nor resolved, Freud believed the boy may grow up wanting to be exactly like his mother – in other words to play a female role in life. Or he may become so frightened by his feeling towards his mother and by what he conceives to be his father’s jealousy as to remain afraid of women all his life. (A common cause of homosexuality , Analyst Sandor Rado once declared is ‘hidden but incapacitating fear of the opposite sex …”)

Freud thought that the tendencies towards arrested development were inborn: some boys simply had less pgychological drive than others or were by nature ‘passive’ and inclines to identify with the feminine – rather than the ‘active’ and inclines to identify with the masculine. But ever since the 1962 publication of the famous study headed by Dr. Irving Bieber, modern analysts have put the blame less on heredity than on childhood experiences.

Dr Bieber and his research committee, studying the case histories of 106 homosexuals who had been treated by members of the Society of Medical Psychoanalysts, found that a remarkable proportion of them had been reared by mothers who babied them all through their childhood. Typically the homosexual’s mother regarded him as her favorite, her pride and joy, who must be protected at all costs from the hazards of growing up. She discouraged him from forming friendships with other boys on the ground that none of them was good enough for him, and jealously protected him from girls who might show an interest. Regarding him as frail and easily hurt, she kept him from the natural rough play  of childhood.
______________________________________________________________________

« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 10:09:25 pm by Sheriff Roland »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #113 on: March 01, 2007, 07:34:57 pm »
This whole passage -- from the "bad case of acne" to the "mothers babied them" -- infuriates me in so many ways I won't even begin to list them.

 >:( >:( >:(


Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #114 on: March 01, 2007, 07:52:51 pm »
Katherine, if that infuriated you, just wait - the next section is subtitled

The cause - Hereditary? Society? A too loving mother? A cold hostile father?

I haven't been reprintin the subtitles fer each page, but it's easy to see where the enquirer got it's origins. This was a respected magazine in the 50's & 60's! But these two articles are froth with self anointed experts (a 'medical andpsychological aspect )?!?!! When the 'experts' are at such odds with each other, how can it be called science, as this second article's title suggests! (Scientists search for the answers ...)

But science is what it perports ta be - with what great grandfather's use to think, and what homophobic legislators attempted managed to pass as law, and what law enforcement officers perceived as necesarry ta maintain the peace.

Like I've argued before, ain't no way, no matter the steps back that recent segments of the the American 'legislators'  have made and called for, ain't no way that things can go back to how they were in Ennis & Jack's time. Those were 'nasty' times indeed.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #115 on: March 01, 2007, 07:54:04 pm »
This whole passage -- from the "bad case of acne" to the "mothers babied them" -- infuriates me in so many ways I won't even begin to list them.

 >:( >:( >:(



Just remind yourself that article was published over 40 years ago. But that was also shortly after a couple of fictional ranch kids came together on top of a mountain in Wyoming. Goes far to illustrate the attitudes that were pervasive back in those days.
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Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #116 on: March 01, 2007, 09:57:42 pm »
Go Sherrif these are great posts! Your patience to retype all the text is greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks,
Your Historian Friend

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2007, 04:48:47 am »
disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

Scientists search for the answers to a touchy and puzzling question: WHY?       by Ernest Havemann       (part 3 of 4)_____________________________________________________________________

On the one hand, the homosexual’s mother kept him utterly dependent on her, unable to make decisions. On the other, she pampered him, catered to his every whim and smothered him with affection. Often she openly preferred him to his father, confided in him and, in Dr. Bieber’s words, ‘acted out a romance’ which had obvious sexual overtones. In some cases she liked to have him sleep in her bedroom, even after he had reached adolescence. All in all, she treated him with an ‘extraordinary intimacy which made it clear to him that he was ‘the most significant individual in her life’ – far more important to her than the husband whom he had replaced as her ‘love object.’

Even with such a mother, Dr. Bieber says, a boy can grow up to normal adulthood if he has a warm affectionate father to set an example of masculinity and counteract the mother’s influence. But the typical father of the homosexual, far from liking and supporting the son, turned out to be totally uninterested in the boy or actively hostile. Often the father was jealous and given to disparagement and ridicule. The boy feared his father and often intensively hated him. Babied and demasculinized by his mother, despised by his father, he arrived at adolescence ‘beset by feeling of inadequacy, impotence and self-contempt’ - and was an eager recruit to the ‘less threatening atmosphere’ of the homosexual world. Not one of the 106 homosexuals studied, Dr. Bieber reported, had a relationship with either mother or father that could by any stretch of the imagination be called normal.

In Dr. Bieber’s view of course, homosexuals are psychologically sick, the emotionally disturbed offspring of emotionally disturbed parents. He believes strongly that the homosexual society in ‘neither healthy nor happy’ and that the very term ‘gar world’ is only a flippant and rather pathetic attempt to cover up deep and chronic feelings of pathological depression. Most analysts, psychiatrists and psychologists tend to agree. (A well-known psychologist and sexologist once began an address to the Mattachine Society with the comment: “I used to think that all homosexuals were neurotic.” His audience greeted his apparent change of heart with applause – but he immediately chilled them by adding: “I now believe that homosexuals in most instances are borderline psychotics.”)
____________________________________________________________________________

Most of the speculation about the mental state of homosexuals, however, comes from therapists who have treated homosexual patients – and thus involves the possibility of a built-in bias which worries some of the experts. One skeptic, Analyst van den Haag, was once told by a colleague, “All my homosexual patients, you know, are quite sick.” “Ah yes” said Dr. van den Haag, but so are all of me heterosexual patients.”

Seeking information about the great majority of homosexuals who have never visited a therapist, a Los Angeles psychologist named Dr. Evelyn Hooker once manages to find 30 such men, then matched them as nearly as she could by age, intelligence and education, with 30 other men. She gave both groups a series of personality test and submitted the results to a panel of trained scorers – who could find no significant differences between the two groups. This may only prove that personality tests are unreliable, as many scientists suspect, or it may indicate that homosexuals can be just as healthy as anybody else.

Freud did not believe that homosexuals were necessarily sick: in a famous letter to a mother of a homosexual who had asked him for help, he wrote, ‘homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation, it cannot be classified as an illness.’ Not did that noted anti-Freudian, Dr Kinsey, regard all homosexuals as psychologically sick. From his interviews with many hundreds of confirmed and part-time homosexuals, Dr. Kinsey concluded that homosexual conduct was simply too widespread, in our own society and others, to be considered neurotic. A new report by his Institute for Sex Research, to be published this fall, will state that many homosexuals ‘are able to lead useful, well-adjusted lives.’
______________________________________________________________________

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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #118 on: March 02, 2007, 05:41:30 am »
One thing, the LIFE article couldn't spell Wolfenden. (UK report arising from the arrest and imprisonment of Peter Wildeblood, Lord Montague of Beaulieu and one other in 1957. Wildeblood wrote a book called "Against the Law" in 1959, which led to the Report. It took them another 10 years to make consent, adult [21] and in private [no more than two people] a defence, though the charge might still be brought. Full decrimininalistion wasn't till the 90s, I think, and repealing the infamous Section 28 against "promoting" homosexuality not until about 2003) 

I checked the spelling against the report itself, and then I thought you'd like to see some of it.

From the last page, obviously they had a big drive on in 1954, the year they got Alan Turing.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #119 on: March 02, 2007, 10:27:59 am »
disclaimer: this is part of an article published in 1965 in LIFE magazine, a very popular magazine of it's time. It is not a recent article!

Scientists search for the answers to a touchy and puzzling question: WHY?       by Ernest Havemann       (last of 4)____________________________________________________________________________

How many homosexuals are there in America? Nobody can say for sure. The closest thing to a census was the 1948 Kinsey report, which was based on interviews with 5,000 men. Kinsey estimated that four men in 100 are exclusively homosexual all their adult lives. This would mean that there are currently about 2.3 million confirmed homosexuals over the age of 18 in the U.S. Kinsey also believed that an equal number of men are exclusively homosexual for a period of three years or more at some time in their lives. Dr. Kinsey’s is the highest of all the responsible estimates and is possibly exaggerated, as has been noted, by the eagerness of homosexual men to volunteer to the study. Dr. Bieber believes that the number of confirmed homosexuals is closer to 2% - or about 1.2 million Americans over the age of 18.

There are also women homosexuals, of course, but the number is much smaller – by the estimate of the Institute for Sex Research, perhaps only a third or a quarter as high as the figure for men. One reason, some analysts have suggested, is that it is far easier for a woman who is afraid of men to perform adequately in marriage than it is for a man who is afraid of women. At any rate, women homosexuals are not nearly so numerous, promiscuous or conspicuous as their male counterpart, and the various studies have largely ignored them.

Has there been an increase in homosexuality? To any observant person walking around cities like New York and Los Angeles, it would certainly seem so. Many psychiatrists and social scientists agree. Dr. Abraham Kardiner, who teaches psychiatry at Emory University says that the increase in the last quarter century has been enormous. But there are no figures to prove a rise in homosexuality and it may be more apparent than real, reflecting simply a more open discussion and practice of homosexuality in keeping with the general sexual frankness of our times.  The Institute for Sex Research, whose studies now cover a period of nearly 25 years, doubts that the proportion of homosexuals has increased at all.
___________________________________________________________________________

Can society do something about homosexuality? Not a great deal. Freud felt that most homosexuals could not be changed even through prolonged psychoanalysis. Dr. Bieber’s attitude is considerably more optimistic: he found that 27% of the homosexuals in his study led normal sex lives after analysis. But even 27% is a low figure and it would be impossible to provide analysis for all the homosexuals in the U.S. anyway.

The laws against homosexual acts have certainly not stopped the confirmed practitioners. As Dr. Gebhard and many other observers have pointed out, sexual behavior is one of the most compulsive of all human traits, and the man who is the grips of homosexuality is likely to practice it regardless of risks or penalties. This fall’s new report by the Institute for Sex Research, which is based on a study of men who were in prison for various sex crimes, will contain some absolutely remarkable figures on the irrepressible drives of the homosexual. The prisoners convicted of advances to boys under 12, the report will show had committed homosexual acts with an average of 19 different partners before they were caught, those convicted of advances to boys between 12 and 15, an average of 45 different partners, those convicted of homosexual acts with older youths and adults, close to 200 times. Moreover, the worst way in the world to try and cure a homosexual is to send him to a prison, where, as in all place when men are gathered without the companionship of women, homosexuality is a commonplace. (The Institute for Sex Research says that 70% of all long-term prisoners in the U.S. become practicing homosexuals). Law officials and psychiatrists who have tried to make international comparisons do not believe that homosexuality is any more wide-spread in places like France, the Netherlands and Sweden, where it is not punishable under the law, than in other nations like ours where it is considered a crime.

Most people who have studied homosexuality believe that the laws against it are what Freud once called them, ‘a great injustice’ and ‘cruelty’ – unjustly penalizing the few who are unlucky to be caught. Indeed some observers think that the legal penalties and social stigma which threatens the homosexual’s life may cause him more emotional disturbance than homosexuality itself – and even some defiant and thrill seeking men may take up homosexuality for the very reason that it is illegal, just as people who have never drunk before began drinking during Prohibition. But certainly society’s powerful disapproval, if not necessarily the law’s, serves to deter at least some men who are wavering between the two worlds.
__________________________________________________________________________

Some well meaning people feel that homosexuality could be reduced if our society were not so blatantly so sexual in general – that is, if we protected our growing boys from the stimulation of sexy movies, books, magazines and outright pornography. But this theory ignores the urgency of the adolescent’s sexual drive. “When a boy reaches puberty,” says Dr. Gebhard, “his hormones keep him far more stimulated from the inside than he could possibly be stimulated by anything he sees or hears.” About the only effective way to discourage homosexuality at that crucial age,” Dr. Gebhard believes, would be “to encourage heterosexuality.” But such an idea would be utterly at odds with our culture and our moral code – and therefore it seems inevitable that a considerable number of boys in every generation will continue to experiment with homosexuality, as in the past, and that some of them who were born or grew up with a predisposition will adopt it as a permanent way of life.

Many optimistic students of our society believe that we may someday eliminate poverty, slums and even the common cold – but the problem of homosexuality seems to be more akin to death and taxes. Even if every present-day American with the slightest trace of homosexuality could be deported tomorrow and forever banished, Dr. Gebhard believes, there would probably be just as many homosexual men in the U.S. a few generations hence as there are now.

________________________________________________________________________
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #120 on: March 02, 2007, 11:54:22 am »
Just remind yourself that article was published over 40 years ago. But that was also shortly after a couple of fictional ranch kids came together on top of a mountain in Wyoming. Goes far to illustrate the attitudes that were pervasive back in those days.

I was going to mention earlier -- though it seemed a tiny bit frivolous to worry about fictional people (even those two!) in this context -- that anyone who says "Why didn't Ennis just get over it?" should be forced to read this.

You're right, Roland. This makes me even madder than yesterday's installment. And once again, I would love to pick out especially egregious examples, but I don't know where to start, there are so many idiotic assumptions in here.

Oh, OK, I have to mention two that happen to be personal pet peeves. One is the fact that scientists, who we are taught to think of as unbiased and objective authorities, whose methods are supposed to be so careful and reliable, are often as stupid and incompetent as anyone else. A study finds that two groups of men, one gay and one straight, are equally mentally healthy -- so rather than consider the possibility that that might actually be the case, many scientists just assume the tests are faulty?

And the other is about the mothers. As a mother, I have long taken issue with the idea that if there's something "wrong" with a kid -- in this case, of course, it isn't even something wrong, but you know what I mean -- it's because the mother screwed up somehow. In the 50s and 60s, autism was attributed to "refrigerator mothers" who didn't love their kids enough. That theory obviously has since been seen as hogwash, but it was widely accepted and caused untold suffering for both kids and mothers. Meanwhile, scientists assumed that boys "became homosexual" because their mothers  loved them too much. How can you love your kids too much? Where exactly were you supposed to draw the line? No matter what mothers do, it's wrong. Parenting "experts'" have changed a little today, but only in degree, not in the underlying assumptions.

One reason the refrigerator mother appeared to have validity was because mothers really did have a hard time being as affectionate with autistic kids who had problems responding to them emotionally. So the researchers really were seeing a correlation, but their bias caused them to interpret the cause and effect backwards (which constantly still happens today, BTW). And it occurs to me that gay men's mothers might actually have appeared more loving, the father more distant, because when it became apparent the son was "different," the father became "uninterested," "actively hostile," "given to disparagement and ridicule." (That pattern would certainly fit Jack's family, and apparently Ennis', too!) Once again, what might actually have been an empirical fact was just interpreted backwards because of the researchers' bias.

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh. The frowning smiley doesn't look mad enough to express my reaction.

Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2007, 11:09:33 am »
One thing, the LIFE article couldn't spell Wolfenden. (UK report arising from the arrest and imprisonment of Peter Wildeblood, Lord Montague of Beaulieu and one other in 1957. Wildeblood wrote a book called "Against the Law" in 1959, which led to the Report. It took them another 10 years to make consent, adult [21] and in private [no more than two people] a defence, though the charge might still be brought. Full decrimininalistion wasn't till the 90s, I think, and repealing the infamous Section 28 against "promoting" homosexuality not until about 2003) 

I checked the spelling against the report itself, and then I thought you'd like to see some of it.

From the last page, obviously they had a big drive on in 1954, the year they got Alan Turing.
Shuggy a question if you don't mind. What is buggery? Is that a British phrase for what us Yanks might call solicitation?


Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #122 on: March 03, 2007, 11:19:19 am »
Shuggy a question if you don't mind. What is buggery? Is that a British phrase for what us Yanks might call solicitation?



No Tommy, buggery is the word used in North America as well, It means taking 'it' (or should I say, giving 'it') up the ass. A very common practice for gays (Ennis did it to Alma as well - that's why we see him flippin her over in the "not so lonely anymore, is it" scene) but certainly not exclusively a gay habit - straights do it too.
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Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #123 on: March 03, 2007, 01:04:34 pm »
No Tommy, buggery is the word used in North America as well, It means taking 'it' (or should I say, giving 'it') up the ass. A very common practice for gays (Ennis did it to Alma as well - that's why we see him flippin her over in the "not so lonely anymore, is it" scene) but certainly not exclusively a gay habit - straights do it too.
Thanks Sherrif, because I was looking at the British study he posted and that was one of 3 categories. What really struck me odd was that they kept these records or prosecuted people in the 1940-44 time period when they were being bombed relentlessly by Nazi Germany.

Offline Kd5000

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #124 on: March 03, 2007, 01:15:16 pm »
"Oh bugger!"  So what does that mean. Or I've heard the wordchoice "Bugger" used in Brittish films when the character is really annoyed. Even the queen said it in THE QUEEN.  Of course, nobody was around to hear her say it.

Offline Sheriff Roland

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2007, 01:22:44 pm »
"Oh bugger!"  So what does that mean. Or I've heard the wordchoice "Bugger" used in Brittish films when the character is really annoyed. Even the queen said it in THE QUEEN.  Of course, nobody was around to hear her say it.

Probably a (slightly more acceptable) version of "Oh Fuck" Though it is NOT somethin that the queen a england would say. It may be percieved as dif'rent, bu that don't change it's origin!

my 2 (canadian) cents
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2007, 03:22:48 pm »
I think "oh, bugger!" is one of those curses in which the literal meaning of the word has kind of fallen by the wayside. At least when the queen says it!  :laugh:

Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2007, 05:03:09 pm »
Buggery refers to anal sex (so it has a somewhat narrower meaning than "sodomy" in the US). Offhand, I think only the penetrative partner is "guilty" of it. The penetrated is regarded as his "victim". But I'm not sure. The fact that in many of those years odd numbers were "offenders" implied they didn't always blame both parties.

Buggery was a very serious crime indeed, with a possible sentence of death until 1861. The last execution for it was in 1836. Although Lord Queensbury accused Oscar Wilde of being a "somdomite" and there was evidence at the trials of anal sex, he was charged with the lesser, more easily proved, crime of "gross indecency with a male" with a maximum sentence of two years at hard labour - enough to destroy Wilde's health and shorten his life.

Tommydreamer wrote:
Quote
they kept these records or prosecuted people in the 1940-44 time period when they were being bombed relentlessly by Nazi Germany.
But you notice there is a dip in the figure for 1940. They probably had other things to do. Quentin Crisp and many others report that the blackouts were wonderful times for cruising. Not only the darkness, but people felt life was short and they should enjoy what they could. Even better after 1941, when thousands of healthy young American males were "over paid, over-sexed and over here".

The word is a very interesting one. From the French "bougre" and in turn from "Bulgari" it's cognate with Bulgaria and Balkan. It originally referred to kinds of heresy believed by those people (Bogomils), and as everyone knows, heretics are capable of anything, especially anal sex.

I doubt very much that the Queen would use it even in private, because she could never know for sure when nobody could hear her, and The Queen (Defender of the Faith) does not say "bugger". She would use the common euphemism "bother". If they have her saying that in the film, I think they went too far. (It reminds me of the scandal when Eliza Doolittle in Shaw's Pygmalian (1910) said "bloody". By the time it was turned into My Fair Lady (1958) people wouldn't have understood what the fuss was about, so it was up?graded to "bloody arse".)

"Bugger" has become very popular in New Zealand, after a series of Toyota TV advertisements in which that was the only dialogue. A series of mishaps involve a Toyota ute, underlining how unexpectedly powerful it is:

A Toyota is used to pull out a fence post. It goes flying through the air. Someone says "Bugger!"
It lands on a dunny (longdrop, outhouse), knocking it over. Someone inside says "Bugger!"
Mud from the wheels lands on some washing hanging on a rotary clothes line. The housewife says "Bugger!"
A dog runs to leap on to the back of the Toyota, but it's too fast and the dog lands in the mud. The dog says "Rurrah!"

So nobody thinks it's rude any more.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 04:02:23 am by Shuggy »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2007, 07:19:23 pm »
I think "oh, bugger!" is one of those curses in which the literal meaning of the word has kind of fallen by the wayside. At least when the queen says it!  :laugh:


Depends on which or what kind of "queen."  ;D

And, of course, "Bugger off!" would be "Fuck off!"

As for the use of bloody in My Fair Lady, it's been awhile, but I think for the movie version they toned down that bloody to bloomin'.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2007, 07:39:00 pm »

And, of course, "Bugger off!" would be "Fuck off!"
The Royals are famous even for using euphemisms. Princess Anne famously told some photographers to "Naff off!" The word "naff" is Polari, the opposite of "bona" and in popular usage just means unfashionable, but is allegedly from the acronym for Not Available For Fucking.

Quote
As for the use of bloody in My Fair Lady, it's been awhile, but I think for the movie version they toned down that bloody to bloomin'.
The Penguin script of the show says "bloomin' arse" but I was told that she said "bloody" on stage. In the song "Without you" she definitely winds up "So go back in your shell, I can do bloody well without you". Julie Andrews sings it on the record. "Bloomin' well" wouldn't cut across the footlights nearly so well.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #130 on: March 04, 2007, 02:53:24 am »
(In re: My Fair Lady): In the song "Without you" she definitely winds up "So go back in your shell, I can do bloody well without you". Julie Andrews sings it on the record. "Bloomin' well" wouldn't cut across the footlights nearly so well.

"Ah, yes, I remember it well." Ooops! Wrong musical. ...  ;D
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Offline Tommydreamer

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2007, 05:13:04 pm »
Shuggy,

Thanks for the in-depth answer.

Tommy

Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #132 on: March 06, 2007, 06:53:51 am »
Hey,  Shuggy!  I was going to explain the origin of the word "bugger" and about the Bogomils - but you just beat me to it.  An alternative name for Bogomil is "Babun" and it is found in many placenames.  There were many sects within the Eastern Orthodox faith which regarded "buggery" as acceptible on the grounds that it didn't result in children,  which would destract a monk's attention from his spiritual or communal duties.   Stories of this concept filtered to the west at the time when Bulgaria was the largest and most stable Orthodox state and when the Bogomil cult was at its height.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #133 on: March 06, 2007, 04:47:42 pm »
Hey,  Shuggy!  I was going to explain the origin of the word "bugger" and about the Bogomils - but you just beat me to it.  An alternative name for Bogomil is "Babun" and it is found in many placenames.  There were many sects within the Eastern Orthodox faith which regarded "buggery" as acceptible on the grounds that it didn't result in children,  which would destract a monk's attention from his spiritual or communal duties.   Stories of this concept filtered to the west at the time when Bulgaria was the largest and most stable Orthodox state and when the Bogomil cult was at its height.
That's interesting but "acceptable" sounds a little far-fetched. Are you sure that's not just what their enemies said? Also, we're talking about a long time ago, so accuracy will be hard to come by now.

Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #134 on: March 07, 2007, 07:32:41 am »
No indeed! At the time of the Russian Revolution, during WWI, there were still monastic communities in Russia and even in Canada in which it was openly acknowledged that monks had same-sex liaisons; sometimes as part of a ritual. I was fortunate to have access to records and descriptions of this in Russia and have heard more about thiese "cults" (?) from Orthodox historians who were not condemnatory. I've also seen an English-language anthology in the university library which discusses the phenomenon in a chapter on Russia; I'll try to relocate it this week and I'll post the title if I can.
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Offline lachlan

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #135 on: March 08, 2007, 09:28:05 am »
"Hidden From History: Reclaiming the Gay and Lesbian Past" Edited by Duberman, Vicinus and Chauncey, Penguin Books 1989 (USA) and 1991 (UK). Anthology. In the chapter on Russia's Gay Literature and Culture at the time of the revolution, by Simon Karlinsky, there is mention (pages 349 - 350) of the peasant religious sects in the north of Russia and along the Volga River: "Two of these sects, Khlysty and Skoptsy, had recognisable homosexual, bisexual and sadomasochistic traits in their folklore and rituals." These could possibly have descended from pre-Christian sects, particularly considering that the regions in question were largely Finnic (Mordvin, Cheremis, etc) in their language and culture until recently. But I have heard of other examples in Russia and the Russian communities in Canada from sources that were not condemnatory. In the case of the Bogomils, I have spent much of the past 40 years in their heartland and have been made to understand that the derivation of the word "Bugger" from their customs was justified. Today, the descendents of the Bogomils are primarily nominal Muslims (Pomaks). But my experiences among them (and I have many Pomak friends still today, including one I just received an email from) has involved plenty of drinking and wild parties not associated with typical Muslim society. I have often been told that they are aware of their ancestors' open sexuality and its place within the former Bogomil ritual. The Western condemnation of sexual relations betwen men (women were largely ignored in these injunctions) stems primarily from St Augustine's interpretations of Christianity. His influence didn't reach the Eastern Orthodox hierarchy until much later and then only within those patriarchates which consciously strove to westernise. So, maybe there's some substance in the source of the word "Bugger" from "Bulgar". And (just to go on and on and... ) the people who inhabited the middle Volga region were also known as "Bulgars" (cognative with "Volga") in the Middle Ages.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #136 on: March 08, 2007, 04:20:12 pm »
Thank you very much, that's very interesting. I have Duberman's "About Time" and I have corresponded with Simon Karlinsky about Tchaikovsky. I put Karlinsky's gay interpretation of Tchaikovsky's 6th (Pathetique/Passionate) sympony published in Christopher Street to the music and it was broadcast on the This Way Out network. In brief, there is an oral tradition passing down to Karlinsky that the secret programme of the symphony is about gay love, the romantic theme in the first movement is for a man, the "struggling" themes in that movement represent homophobia, and the sad final movement is an elegy for various of Tchaikovsky's lovers. The limping "waltz" in 5/4 time and the very un-military march, using the tonic-subdominant interplay instead of the conventional tonic-dominant, can also be interpreted as referring to gay people "marching to a different drummer". 

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #137 on: April 26, 2007, 10:56:49 am »
Just saw that this was the focus thread so i started reading it.
Very interesting. I don't know much about the 60's other than what i have read. I was born in 66.
I remember some things. I was born to a poor Un-Wed teenage mother in the rural south. Hell, we were hillbillys and we were outcasts. Young un-married women just didn't get pregnant unless they were white trash you know whats! So, that is how we were precieved n our small town. She was the whore of Babylon and i was her bastard child. But, we escaped when I was 3 so all I know about that is what mamma has told me.
When she started dating the man I would come to call my father, we spent a lot of time on the VA Tech campus.
i can remember the hippies and them telling me to flash a peace signs to the cops. I remember the moon landing on our old black and white tv in 69.
As far as the homosexuality thing goes, I didn't know anything about that until the late 70's.
I knew I was different from the time I was about 4 or 5.
I remember my mom had the village people album when I was about 10 or 11. I fell in love with the hairy chested leather guy. When I was in the 6th grade is when i first heard the word fag. I had no idea what it meant. Some dumb red-neck called me that and everyone laughed. When I found out I was mortified. How could anyone have known. Well, now that I knew there was a word for it and it was a bad word i knew I didn't want to be that.
Thus began the construction of the closet. As thears progressed and AIDS was all over the place I really didn't want to begay. Being raised in Church I learned that AIDS was the reaping of what the "Homa Sexshuls" have sown!
It's still like that here. In Atlanta there is Mid-town, Virginia-Highlands, Buckhead, Grant Park and Ansley Park. These are all places within the city that gay people are known to live and frequent. But, outside the city in Suburbia there is no place. Once you get outside the city and the further out you go it's like going back in time in regards to attitudes about homosexuality. It's hard all over i'm sure but here in the buckle of the bible belt it can be overwhelming.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #138 on: April 26, 2007, 06:08:04 pm »
I remember the moon landing on our old black and white tv in 69.
So did you get a colour TV after that?  :laugh:

Seriously, though, sad story. Hope it's worked out OK.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #139 on: April 26, 2007, 06:23:42 pm »
The Penguin script of the show says "bloomin' arse" but I was told that she said "bloody" on stage. In the song "Without you" she definitely winds up "So go back in your shell, I can do bloody well without you". Julie Andrews sings it on the record. "Bloomin' well" wouldn't cut across the footlights nearly so well.
In the film adaptation, in the Ascot scene, Audrey Hepburn as Eliza cries out "Move your bloomin' arse!" Seems like it would have been a little shocking for 1964.

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #140 on: April 26, 2007, 06:30:21 pm »
No indeed! At the time of the Russian Revolution, during WWI, there were still monastic communities in Russia and even in Canada in which it was openly acknowledged that monks had same-sex liaisons; sometimes as part of a ritual. I was fortunate to have access to records and descriptions of this in Russia and have heard more about thiese "cults" (?) from Orthodox historians who were not condemnatory. I've also seen an English-language anthology in the university library which discusses the phenomenon in a chapter on Russia; I'll try to relocate it this week and I'll post the title if I can.
In Andrei Tarkovsky's great film Andrey Roublev, the titular character (an historical figure, a monk and icon-painter who flourished in fifteenth-century Russia) reveals his attraction towards a fellow brother of the faith. The fellow monk concedes that "The Devil has tempted me too", implicitly acknowledging a perception of the sinfulness of fulfilling the men's mutual desire, without necessarily condemning the attraction in and of itself.

This scene was very striking when I first saw the film, considering the fact that it was made in Soviet Russia in the 1960's (heady stuff, surely, for that particular country at that particular time).

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #141 on: April 26, 2007, 06:31:36 pm »
So did you get a colour TV after that?  :laugh:

Seriously, though, sad story. Hope it's worked out OK.

Not for many years. My daughter finds that un-believable.
Still working  it out but I think I'm going to be ok!
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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #142 on: April 26, 2007, 06:38:29 pm »
I'm always a little startled whenever I hear of someone who wasn't poor (or even middle-class) who fought in Vietnam, like Al Gore or John Kerry.
My uncle is a Vietnam veteran, and came from a lower middle-class family that highly valued education and the hopes of bettering oneself materially. My uncle had a lot of learning disabilities that were poorly understood when he was growing up, and he grew to hate school, dropping out when he was able to do so. The military seemed like one of his better prospects at the time; as it turned out, he joined up right when the war was beginning to escalate. He was a commended soldier, but had a nervous breakdown while overseas, and received an honorable discharge. In many ways, today, he remains a broken man.

Offline loneleeb3

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #143 on: April 26, 2007, 09:18:33 pm »
My uncle is a Vietnam veteran, and came from a lower middle-class family that highly valued education and the hopes of bettering oneself materially. My uncle had a lot of learning disabilities that were poorly understood when he was growing up, and he grew to hate school, dropping out when he was able to do so. The military seemed like one of his better prospects at the time; as it turned out, he joined up right when the war was beginning to escalate. He was a commended soldier, but had a nervous breakdown while overseas, and received an honorable discharge. In many ways, today, he remains a broken man.
Same here. I had two uncles who came back forever changed. My one uncle was all american in football. He had scholarships waiting and his highschoool sweetheart. he came back broken and spent most of the 70's thru the 90's in prison. He seemed to be doing good for a while but now he has disappeared again and we can't find him. My other uncle is better. He spent most of the 70's in jail and straightend up and got married and had a child but he has battled the bottle ever since.
They never talked about whatthey saw but we know it was horrific because of the effect the war had on them.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #144 on: April 27, 2007, 05:56:37 am »
Quote
Quote from: loneleeb3 on Today at 03:56:49
I remember the moon landing on our old black and white tv in 69.
So did you get a colour TV after that?   :laugh:

Not for many years. My daughter finds that un-believable.
But wasn't it wrecked? I'm surprised you survived... ::)

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #145 on: April 27, 2007, 09:08:59 am »
I remember the surprise I got the first time I saw The Wizard of Oz on television after we got our first color television. I'd had no idea the entire movie wasn't in black and white!  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Shuggy

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #146 on: April 27, 2007, 06:18:50 pm »
I remember the surprise I got the first time I saw The Wizard of Oz on television after we got our first color television. I'd had no idea the entire movie wasn't in black and white!  :laugh:
It's a pretty wonderful effect even when you know the movie's in colour.

It reminds me of the first times I heard stereo sound. I had originally been opposed to it on the grounds that spatial separation is not essential to music (and it's not, but stereo just doubles the bandwidth, as we'd say nowadays). The first time I heard it through headphones ("For unto us" from Handel's Messiah) I cried.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #147 on: April 27, 2007, 07:07:58 pm »
You guys are ahead of me....I didn't see color TV until the early 70s and STILL have not seen Wizard of Oz color sequences. time to go to the rental store.

But, seeing black and white productions brings back wonderful memories. Most TV shows weren't even filmed in color in 1963. in the mid 60s, NBC created a logo with the peacock whose "tail" moved in what was obviously a wonderful display of color to promote their shows... "brought to you in living color".

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #148 on: April 27, 2007, 09:23:09 pm »
You guys are ahead of me....I didn't see color TV until the early 70s and STILL have not seen Wizard of Oz color sequences. time to go to the rental store.

But, seeing black and white productions brings back wonderful memories. Most TV shows weren't even filmed in color in 1963. in the mid 60s, NBC created a logo with the peacock whose "tail" moved in what was obviously a wonderful display of color to promote their shows... "brought to you in living color".

Boy, that phrase brings back memories: "brought to you in living color"! Here's another: Remember "Walt Disney's Wonderful World of Color"?  ;D

As for television shows filmed in black and white, the first season, 1964-1965, of my childhood favorite, Fess Parker's Daniel Boone, was released on DVD late last year; it's in black and white.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline 2robots4u

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2007, 02:36:59 am »
This is in reply to comments about the use of "bloomin'" and "bloody" in My Fair Lady:  On stage "bloody" is definitely used, however, the cast recording opted not to use that word, as did the movie.  "Bloody" was not a widely heard phrase in America at that time, so I don't believe it was a shocked; in England it is as common as dirt and also would not have been a shocked.  It was many years later that I learned that "bloody" was a vulgar word, and used it sometimes.  I guess that might explain why so many people thought I was British!

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2014, 11:38:02 pm »
I've been watching Brokeback Mountain after a long hiatus. One of the quotes that hit me really hard was when Jack said, "I may be back, if the army don't get me." Here's the entire episode, from Moviefanatic.com:

Jack Twist: You gonna do this again next summer?
Ennis Del Mar: Well, maybe not. Like I said, Alma and me's gettin' married in November, so... I'll try and get something on a ranch, I guess. And you?
Jack Twist: I might go up to my Daddy's place and give him a hand through the Winter. But, I might be back... if the army don't get me.
Ennis Del Mar: [pause] Well... I guess I'll see you around, huh?
Jack Twist: [long pause] Right.

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Offline x-man

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Re: The Question of Time: What Was Life Like in 1963?
« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2014, 05:44:14 pm »
I have come to realize that this is the most heart-wrenching exchange in the whole movie.  This is the moment when their lives could have changed.  If only they had not parted then, if only Ennis had caught it at that moment rather then when he turned off to throw up at realizing what had just happened.  It wouldn't have been too late.  This scene has happened to many of us, and we wised up too late.
Happiness is the lasting pleasure of the mind grasping the intelligible order of reality.      --Leibniz