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BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum  |  Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond  |  Brokeback Mountain Open Forum (Moderators: serious crayons, Penthesilea, LauraGigs)  |  Topic: A Ninth Viewing Observation 0 Residents and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
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Author Topic: A Ninth Viewing Observation  (Read 37075 times)
Rosestem
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« Reply #340 on: May 13, 2017, 02:14:19 pm »

Hi BBM_victim, great to have you here. Your observations are fresh and wonderful after all this time, e.g. Lureen fishing around to find out who knew about Brokeback Mountain, and Ennis's "can't have no cake." I always attributed that to his generally weak stomach, but I like your interpretation better. Keep posting!
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« Reply #341 on: May 14, 2017, 11:35:23 am »

Yes, BBM_victim, those are excellent observations about Mrs. Twist's testing with the cake, and Lureen's testing with the "pretend place"!

Come to think of it, even the fact that the cherry cake seems to contain only one cherry now strikes me as potentially significant.

Proof that even after 12 years and 605,588 posts (how many words is that?!), there's always more to be discovered!  Cheesy

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« Reply #342 on: May 16, 2017, 12:51:43 am »

Hey serious crayons!

Thanks a lot for replying. Your post #337 was very nice and true! You are right about a lot of things.

Regarding Mrs Twist - Rosestem, serious crayons - well, i'm so proud of myself that i could contribute something new??  Cheesy This was really never mentioned?? So, you encouraged me to some further thinking about that!  Cheesy

I remembered and pondered the whole scene once again. It actually starts with Ennis arriving at Lightning Flat, Mrs Twist glancing out of the door's window and then stepping outside while raising her head and adjusting her cardigan. The more i think about it the more i think she is bracing herself for this visitor. I don't know whether Ennis announced his visit in beforehand. It would work better if he did and Mrs Twist is aware of who has just arrived. So, she is kind of putting on her most furious face (raising the head) and putting on some armor (adjusting the cardigan) and bracing herself for encounter with THE "Ennis Del Mar". Because she does not know anything about him. She knows that Jack loved this man, but she also knows that Jack had become an empty shell over the years - because of this person. So, i feel she is thinking somewhere along the lines "Oh, Ennis Del Mar is finally coming to visit us. Let's see what kind of creature this person is..."

Then we have that first word exchange about the coffee and cake. I think it's because of the word "cake". Would it have been a "pie" or something else, it might be not that poignant, but she says "cake". What do you associate with "cakes"? Me: birthdays, weddings; cheerful occasions. But to eat a cake at a funeral? I would not say it's appropriate.... Therefore it's important that Ennis declines the cake and it lets her know that he is in fact mourning over Jack. This leads to her first smile which is not directed at Ennis, but is somewhat to the side, so i take it she is smiling to herself.

The next thing Ennis says is about bringing Jack's ashes to BBM - and while saying so he is looking at her, not at Old Twist. She then directs her look to Old Twist as if she were some kind of conductor (elect.) between Ennis and Old Twist because it seems that Ennis is afraid of talking to Old Twist directly.

Then follows Old Twist's torturing speech about "Ennis Del Mar", other fellow and Jack's plans. It's a very hard scene for me to watch. Especially when Old Twist says "but, like most a Jack's ideas... 't never come to pass...". Because upon hearing this Ennis moves his eyebrow and then twitches his mouth - for me it looks like he is about to loose it. To hell with the idea of the other fella - it's more gut-wrenching having been told upfront that Jack's idea of a life with Ennis never came to pass! This is how it must feel for Ennis at this moment - that he was the reason for Jack's ideas, his dreams never coming true, that he failed to make Jack happy and there is no way he can make it up to Jack anymore!
[This eyebrow-moving and mouth-twitching is difficult to show here, but i put a screenshot of Ennis' face at this point below.]

Well, Mrs Twist takes full notice of Ennis' reaction, so she sends him up to Jack's room. She does not look so strict anymore, her face has a hint of a smile.
After Ennis comes down with the shirts she then directly smiles at him and nods. She sees his eyes are red from crying, she has all ultimate proofs that Ennis really loved her son and did him no wrong, that he was a victim of (unknown to her) circumstances himself. And then her almost desperate and wet-eyed "you come back and see us again". Just compare that to the first shot of her at the porch when Ennis arrives. The difference is quite noticeable. She moved from suspicious "who is this guy" to a loving "you are part of this family now - this is your home, come back any time".



It's funny Mrs Twist's "code" was never mentioned. Especially since her coffee and cake question seems to be the code word between brokies?? Like to find out whether a newcomer is really concerned about and is affected by Ennis and Jack's fate  Cheesy. I never took it differently. I actually thought my observation about Lureen was the new revelation  Cheesy (at least for me).

[Oh, by the way, my DVD has Japanese subtitles, so don't wonder Wink]
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BBM_victim
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« Reply #343 on: May 16, 2017, 02:43:46 am »

Friends!

I have some more  Grin. I don't know where to put this, so i post it here because this thread is about new observations - any of them! Grin

As you might have noticed, I'm currently invested in thinking a lot about the movie's ending (starting from Ennis and Jack's last trip together) because i am currently still reading all 400+ pages of the relative thread over at the Ultimate Brokeback Forum (former Dave Cullen). I've been reading since February and i'm now half-through only!  Grin

So, i had another thought on the whole story. As mentioned here some posts back i think the short story is slightly different from the movie in terms of whether or not Ennis and Jack's relationship will ever change. I think the point of the short story is that these two are mightily STUCK. Neither Ennis can overcome his fears of being with Jack (at least more often) while also not being able to stop seeing Jack nor Jack can help it always coming back to Ennis no matter how much it hurts. Annie Proulx put these two characters into a dead end, she does not see any way they could be saved. So - Jack must die (doesn't matter how). On the one hand to break out of this relationship and on the other hand to liberate Ennis from it, too. Therefore, i came to think this is actually - in a weird way - a happy end  Undecided. (Or maybe this is just me trying hard to convince myself that the end was a happy one, ha!)

Now, what the movie does is - it adds some additional scenes and lines of dialogue and sheds a slightly different light on the story, giving it a bit more of a hope. Hope that Ennis and Jack's relationship was actually able to change (Ennis' "can't stand much anymore" + Cassie break-up) and hope that Ennis could change himself (coming to terms with himself and accepting himself fully - as we see him at the very end he looks more at peace with himself).

But I have been thinking about that "being stuck" from the short story. Up to the lake argument we observe that there is no change in their setup. They continue to meet in the middle of nowhere and they continue to avoid any deep conversations about their feelings to each other or about "that thing". This is same in the movie and the short story. Then we have this scene where Ennis gives Jack the news about August. We all noticed how nervous Ennis is - rubbing the truck door handle, biting his nails, hiding under the hat. I would also note his posture (put a picture at the end). Look at him: he makes himself as small as possible, pressing himself against that truck and trying hard to just disappear!

So, i got into thinking. Why is this big, sometimes scary guy acting this way, making himself so small? The obvious answer is because he knows about Jack's reaction, that Jack will be pissed of. But WHY does he know it? If Ennis has the power in their relationship, if he sets the terms, the places and times of their meetings and if Jack is always understanding and never complains - why would Ennis be so afraid of Jack's reaction? I mean to be nervous to this extent? My thought was then that MAYBE this is not their first fight?? That maybe Jack did explode before already? We don't know this, right? Neither the short story nor the movie tell us whether there were any other fights between them. The lake argument is being presented to us as the first one, possibly as the breaking point for their relationship. But what if this was not the first time? Jack says they are having "high-altitude fucks, once or twice a year" - i don't know whether we should take this literally, but if we do this would mean that in some years they meet only ONCE! Wouldn't Jack be upset about this? Did they maybe fight before already? Said painful things to each other in the course of a fight before already? This is how Ennis would know what the news about August would trigger (again).

Do you know what that would mean? That they STILL ended up meeting and loving each other! Ennis could not satisfy Jack, Jack would blow up, they would say painful things, they would torque things back, they would still meet again! They are truly STUCK, no way out, no change! Short story says what they said was no news - can it be it's because they have said it before? Maybe not in this explosive way we see it in the lake scene, since it does affect them both greatly.

Then i think about the movie and Ennis' last sentence "Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack...". As you all know this line is not in the story, it's not in the screenplay either and some claim even Heath's lips don't move at that point (i do see it, though), so it was edited/added later on. Why would they do that? Because it is in line with what comes after that - the break-up with Cassie. From this last line Ennis says the movie version of BBM starts, which offers that little chance of a change for them. On the other hand, due to this small word "much" one could also argue that this line means that Ennis just wants to stop their fighting (at that particular moment), that he can't stand to hear or say any of those truths anymore. This would bring us back to the "stuck" situation because Ennis' line does not refer to the status of their relationship, so "nothing resolved".


Hm.. Here, you have it. Some more thoughts from me  Roll Eyes.
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« Reply #344 on: May 16, 2017, 07:42:23 pm »

Quote
"Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack...". As you all know this line is not in the story, it's not in the screenplay either and some claim even Heath's lips don't move at that point (i do see it, though), so it was edited/added later on. Why would they do that? Because it is in line with what comes after that - the break-up with Cassie. From this last line Ennis says the movie version of BBM starts, which offers that little chance of a change for them. On the other hand, due to this small word "much" one could also argue that this line means that Ennis just wants to stop their fighting (at that particular moment), that he can't stand to hear or say any of those truths anymore.

I could have heard it wrong, but I thought he said, "I can't stand much more, Jack..." or "I can't stand it anymore, Jack..." and I thought what he meant by it was that he was lovesick, lonesome, scared and tired of being different and outcast.
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« Reply #345 on: May 16, 2017, 08:30:49 pm »

Yes, Front-Ranger, it could be taken either way, but the effect will be different, right?? The question is - which one do YOU prefer?  Cheesy

By the way, i take my quotes from http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/movie_script.php?movie=brokeback-mountain, i don't know how accurate this source is. It says there Ennis says "Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack...".

Actually, it can also mean both at the same time. I sure do like the idea Ennis is begging Jack to stop the fighting because he can neither hear anything about Jack's anguish (because it's tearing him apart) nor can he bear him saying any much more because you know how it is in fights - you say a lot of emotional things which you actually don't want to say at all. Ennis on one hand does not want to hurt Jack anymore and on the other he is a very inarticulate guy, right? He does not know how or what to say to Jack's accusations while being full of emotions, being about to explode. How must it feel if you are about to explode but don't know a way how to let it all out?
I do like to take it this way because it shows just how much Ennis loves Jack, how much he opens up to Jack so that he is begging him and just how much Jack in turn is loving Ennis because he would understand Ennis plea. Again, an exchange full of love in itself.

But, you know what, i the end, even if we take it this way, it still does not preclude Ennis' change. Even if he IS saying he cannot stand the fighting (as opposed to the setup of relationship) anymore, this does not mean that Ennis goes back and does not start to consider a change.



I have to giggle.. This is SO great! This story is truly magical, a work of a genius!! No matter how much is twisted or how different something can be interpreted, the core of the story never changes!
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Penthesilea
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« Reply #346 on: May 17, 2017, 01:11:14 am »

I just checked on youtube. Ennis says "I can't stand this anymore, Jack."
I think he means their whole situation, not the current fight.
He starts to see the light, so to say, thus the breakup with Cassie. I do believe that movie-Ennis has the potential to change, however small the baby steps might be.

On a side note, it breaks my heart to see Ennis so forlorn at the Greyhound station (of all places!) - and that is even before he gets the postcard about Jack's death.
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« Reply #347 on: May 17, 2017, 02:18:05 am »

LOL, so now we have 3 different opinions on what Ennis says! But, well, actually it does not affect the fact that it can be taken either way (i don't intend to start any fight over this one Wink ).

Hey, Penthesilea, thanks for sharing your emotions on seeing Ennis at the station. Actually, this scene did not had the same impact on me. Sure, Ennis looks quite ruminant to me and i think it is important that he is this way, because i my opinion he is about to step out of his comfort zone in order make a change in his relationship with Jack and maybe he is also afraid of it.
My personal "breaks my heart" scene is when Ennis is walking outside the Twist ranch (put a pic). He can hardly walk  Cry. At the station he still has Jack (at least he does know he's dead yet), but here he is really left alone in this world Cry .
 Ah, and the other "breaks my heart" scene when Ennis reads the postcard and after comparatively long time a hushed "ghah" escapes him Cry [don't know how to write it even down...].

But, back to your perception of Ennis at the station - could you explain why this feels so heartbreaking to you? I would really love to hear Smiley
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« Reply #348 on: May 18, 2017, 12:28:57 am »

But, back to your perception of Ennis at the station - could you explain why this feels so heartbreaking to you? I would really love to hear Smiley

Easy one Wink. Because he doesn't know yet, but we do. He's so sad and lonely already and I know the worst thing is yet to come.

And of course it's no coincidence that we see him at a Groundhog station. Ennis, who never goes anywhere except around the coffeepot looking for the handle, is sitting broodily at a place where people go to travel places. Not saying Ennis chose the G. station on purpose, but Ang Lee did.
So the Lake scene with "I can't stand this anymore", plus him being so forlorn plus the fact of the Greyhound station, plus his exchange with Cassie - all these are details that make me believe Ennis is ready (or getting there) for some changes (small baby steps of course).
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« Reply #349 on: May 18, 2017, 01:23:19 am »

Ennis is ready
Amen to that! I think so, too!

I watched the ending yesterday again and noticed something new for me yet again. Had any of you noticed Ennis' sleeve when Jack catches him?? I totally lost it yesterday  Cry Cry Cry. Ennis is literally in rags, on his knees, crying!  Cry Clutching to Jack and pressing his head to Jack's chest with such a force!
Could Jack have ever possibly "moved on" after this?!? That would be IMO out of character of the "ministering angel" and i do believe Jack loved Ennis too much to ever "move on".

In the short story and screenplay it also says that Ennis had only 2 shirts when he came to Signal, buttons missing, both of them did not wear any underwear, Ennis even no socks (he does wear socks in the movie, though). I also remember how Ennis put on his best shirt when waiting for Jack after 4 years.... How painful should it be for his self-esteem as a "male" (in his own perception of "masculinity") to having to face Jack like that? (Sure, there are other examples, too: Ennis' truck, his post-divorce cabin, the sleeve on his jacket when talking to Lureen does not look much better either...)

Oh, Ennis....  Cry Jack was really his all and everything...

[Now I really feel so bad about joking about Ennis' jacket on "stupid question" thread  Cry]
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BetterMost, Wyoming & Brokeback Mountain Forum  |  Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond  |  Brokeback Mountain Open Forum (Moderators: serious crayons, Penthesilea, LauraGigs)  |  Topic: A Ninth Viewing Observation « previous next »
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