Author Topic: Did anyone else notice this  (Read 7216 times)

vkm91941

  • Guest
Did anyone else notice this
« on: April 16, 2006, 06:07:10 pm »
My 12 year old  asked me this and I thought it might be a good discussion topic...I see someone else posted something similar on the main board at IMDb.......

Did anyone notice in this film that there were no scenes that showed Ennis with any male friends beside Jack? Do you think his father made him so homophobic when he was young that he could never relate to other guys?  Is there something to this? Is his homophobia the reason he was isolated from all men?   What do you  think?

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2006, 06:12:03 pm »
Hiya Vickie,

Yep, we noticed.  There used to be a thread on the big board a while back, forgot the name.

Jack obviously had 'friends' ("Jack kept all his friends addresses in his head"), but while I can't say if Ennis had any close friends or not, he was close to SOME guys ("I can try to get Don Wroe's cabin again...").  Ennis had to know this guy well enough for him to lend Ennis his hunting cabin.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2006, 06:24:04 pm »
Hi Victoria!

I also remember back on the old imdb board there was a very touching discussion about Ennis's lack of friends, especially when thinking about his comments to Lureen on the phone.  When he says "we were good friends" it breaks you heart because (1) it's a huge understatement (if he could be free with his language he'd say something like "he was the love of my life") and (2) because it does highlight that Ennis lost his only real friend.

We've all noted repeatedly that Jack is the only person (other than his daughters maybe) who can get Ennis to smile and relax.  Ennis jokes, laughs, becomes somewhat chatty (for him at least) and tells Jack his deepest secrets. He decides to make Jack his confidant during the "that's the most I spoke in a year" conversation.  Maybe even earlier, actually.  Maybe he decided right from the beginning at the bar when he told Jack about his parents dying.  But, he makes it even more clear when he tells Jack about not having had the opportunity to lose his virginity yet.  That's pretty private and personal stuff.  And, of course the Earl story is his worst and most painful memory and he allows Jack to comfort him by stroking his cheek.  So, yes, Jack is his deep, deep friend as well as lover.

I think Ennis's status in his normal, daily life in town (away from Jack and the mountains) he's paralyzed by his fear of being outed, of homophobia and of violence.  I think this fear manifests itself in his posture, his silence, his stoicism.  Really, everything that makes him look like a classic cowboy on the outside, are also the same characteristics that stand as physical manifestations of his fear and insecurity. That's really interesting when you think about it.  Yeah, I think there are lots of moments when we see Ennis alone in town.  He's alone at the bar when he meets Cassie.  He's alone again eating his pie in the bus station when Cassie confronts him towards the end.  I'm sure Ennis would find it very stressful to have friends as sad as that is. His main concern is to hide.

But the point about Don Wroe is a good one.  It's nice to think that he wasn't completely isolated.

Oh, poor Ennis.   :'( :-\
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline David

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,097
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2006, 06:36:24 pm »
How very true!     

    Jack was not just Ennis's lover, but his best friend.   Note how he told Jack about the divorce too.  This was big news in his life.   Granted Jack got the wrong signal from that, but it does show that Ennis needed to tell someone.

   On a personal note:  The Ennis in my life was the same way.   He didn't have any male friends other than me.     I know he is saddened by my choice to distance myself from him.   His wife sent me a Birthday card to which I had to acknowledge.   He emailed me back with :"Yea, I thought the card was cute.
 
No problem, It seems strange not talking to you."


Talk about a man of few words!   So like Ennis it is scary!

Quitting someone is harder than you think.   Sigh.  :-\
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 10:03:48 pm by DavidinHartford »

vkm91941

  • Guest
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2006, 10:00:11 pm »

but while I can't say if Ennis had any close friends or not, he was close to SOME guys ("I can try to get Don Wroe's cabin again...").  Ennis had to know this guy well enough for him to lend Ennis his hunting cabin.

Yea will I can see Ennis connecting in a co-worker kind of way with other men, like this Don Wroe but that's not friendship.  Jack was Ennis only friend I thnk
« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 12:25:15 am by vkm91941 »

vkm91941

  • Guest
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2006, 01:25:41 am »
and think of this...he would never hear his name spoken by another human being..no one would speak of him because no one knew him...for the rest of his life.   

Jack would live only in Ennis' mind...the dreams talked about in the short story were so moving, so real that he would either come or wake in tears..............

Ennis  lived in his dreams and slept through his days after Jake died....Maybe he always had, living for the time he snatched with Jack, his only happiness and existed the rest of the time in a kind of limbo of work and child support until the next time he could get away to be with Jack. 

Really emphasises the tragedy of Ennis's life.

Offline hermitdave

  • Jr. Ranch Hand
  • **
  • Posts: 32
  • changed forever by brokeback...
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2006, 01:27:46 am »
 :'(
"Whenever Im alone with you, you make me feel like I am whole again. Whenever Im alone with you, you make me feel like I am young again." - The Cure

Offline Sheyne

  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • I am pretty good with a canoe tho..
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2006, 01:55:34 am »

Victoria, you actually made me cry with what you wrote. I think I'm only starting to sift through the layers of this cloud that has settled over me since seeing Brokeback.  The tragedy of Ennis's life is only a small part of that cloud. The way you put it, the way you explained it just brought another flood of emotion..

I needed this cry, so i wanted to say thanks, but god, don't you wish things had been different for these boys??  :'( :'(
Chut up!

vkm91941

  • Guest
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2006, 03:26:03 am »
but god, don't you wish things had been different for these boys??  :'( :'(

Oh Sheyne I'm so pathetic about it that everytime I watch it I hope till the end that it will turn out different this time... :-\

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2006, 06:37:05 am »
Along these same lines, I always find it particularly poignant when Lureen says to Ennis, "I thought it was someplace to drink.  Jack drank a lot."  That last bit stabs me in the heart.  My mother turned to drinking to self-medicate after the love of her life, my father, left her when I was 2.  It took a few years, but by the time I was in kindegarten, she was a full-fledged alcoholic.  It makes me picture him in the house with Lureen and Bobby at night after work, missing Ennis so much he can hardly stand it, pouring himself one whiskey shot after another (I don't think he'd just pull on the bottle in front of Lureen) until he stumbled to bed drunk.

And I agree with Victoria that Don Wroe was a co-worker, not a friend, to Ennis.  I kind of see him as a boss, really, which would delineate them even further.  I figure he owns/owned a ranch Ennis worked on.  I could see a ranch owner a) having the money to own a hunting/fishing cabin and b) offering it to Ennis because he's his hardest worker and seems to be the type who likes his solitude.  I agree that Ennis had no other male friends than Jack, partly because of his homophobia and fear of people thinking it was something else, and partly because Jack was all the friend he needed.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 07:10:59 am by ednbarby »
No more beans!

Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2006, 07:39:42 am »
Well, I think the movie nor the short story give enough information to reach to that conclusion, at least to me. Maybe Ennis did have some friends, but they were married and didn't have enough time to hang out with him when he divorced. Besides, Ennis was seldom around. When he wasn't working at some far away ranch, he was with Jack at the mountains where nobody could see him.

Also, considering that he didn't want anyone to found out about his secret life, is undestandable that he woud avoid making close friends. But that be out of fear, not necessarily homophobia. Cassie was the closest friend he made after his divorce, and she had a hard time understanding Ennis. She didn't know where she stood in his life and has to ask his daughter about it.

On the other hand, Ennis talks about Don Wroe letting him use his house. He has to be someone Ennis knows pretty well. I mean you don't let a house just like that, you let it to people you know and trust. So I guess this Don Wroe person was someone who as a friend of Ennis. Cassie also talks about some guy named Steve. When she runs into Ennis at the bar, she tells him she has left a message for him with Steve at the ranch. But he could be his boss or whatever.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2006, 11:10:08 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Lumière

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,283
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2006, 02:41:06 pm »
I agree - not only was Ennis without any male friends, he was without many friends in general.  The only possible 'friend' (aside from Jack of course) that Ennis could've had was this fellow Don Wroe whom Ennis mentions.  I think they had to be abit more than aquaintances for him to let Ennis use his cabin for a while.  I can hope ...

During that scene where Ennis meets Cassie, I was always struck by him sitting at the bar alone, chain-smoking and drinking bottle after bottle of beer.  I mean, he might have done that quite a few nights a week ...week after week... :'( ...when he was not with Jack, Ennis just shut down completely.

Another scene that gets me, at the end, during Alma Jr's visit, I could feel the weight of the world on his shoulders.  It sucks to love someone so much for 20 years, to dream of them all the time, to be in love with them and to finally lose them and not be able to tell a single living soul about it!  That burden was crushing the life out of Ennis...everytime I see Ennis alone, I figure he is thinking about Jack, wishing they could be together - yet he was almost paralysed when it came to making that dream come true... :-\


Offline opinionista

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,939
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2006, 02:49:25 pm »
Quote
Another scene that gets me, at the end, during Alma Jr's visit, I could feel the weight of the world on his shoulders.  It sucks to love someone so much for 20 years, to dream of them all the time, to be in love with them and to finally lose them and not be able to tell a single living soul about it!  That burden was crushing the life out of Ennis...everytime I see Ennis alone, I figure he is thinking about Jack, wishing they could be together - yet he was almost paralysed when it came to making that dream come true... :-\

I also thought at this scene Ennis looks like feeling an urge to tell Alma Jr about Jack, about how he has lost him and the importance of loving someone and being loved, but restrains himself. Its a very sad scene.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2006, 02:56:50 pm »
I agree.  When he looks out the window there (as he does so often throughout the movie, as we've discussed) after saying "He loves you?" and Alma replying very thoughtfully and knowingly, "Yes, Daddy.  He loves me.", not only do we see the realization that of course that is what he felt for Jack, but the tiniest inkling of a smile, I think because he is relieved that she won't have to go through what her mother did.  What any of them did, really.  She will not only be loved, but she will be with the one she loves.  The bittersweetness of that smile - the realization of his love for Jack and all the crushing weight that comes with it coupled with the release of a bit of that weight in his relief that his daughter won't have the miserable life that they all had - is just heartwrenching.
No more beans!

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2006, 03:53:01 pm »
But, he makes it even more clear when he tells Jack about not having had the opportunity to lose his virginity yet.

i never thought of that. but you're right. especially for a 19 year old male in America, that is just not what you admit to. you make up stories if you have to, but none admits to being a virgin.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

vkm91941

  • Guest
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2006, 05:50:31 pm »
But, he makes it even more clear when he tells Jack about not having had the opportunity to lose his virginity yet.

i never thought of that. but you're right. especially for a 19 year old male in America, that is just not what you admit to. you make up stories if you have to, but none admits to being a virgin.

Yes, that struck me too, even though Ennis was engaged to Alma he was still a virgin...and admitted it.  Yet when they were older they both felt the need to posture about their sexual prowess with each other.  funny that.

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2006, 01:17:22 pm »
Yet when they were older they both felt the need to posture about their sexual prowess with each other.  funny that.

I'm not sure I follow this reference. Do you mean in that last scene, when they are talking about Ennis' relationship with Cassie and Jack's supposed affair with a rancher's wife? I read those conversations in a different way: Ennis' remarks about Cassie strike me as simply an honest answer to Jack's question about him marrying; he sounds not like he's posturing but like he's very indifferent and lackadaisical ("says she wants to be a nurse, or sumpn'" in a kind of shrugging, "but who cares" tone). I guess Jack's revelation sounds a bit more like posturing, but mainly it seems like a way to slyly confess his involvement with Randall without upsetting Ennis. In any case, neither seems likely to be particularly impressed by -- or even to care about -- the other's prowess with women.  In other conversations, both also seem blase about their sexual relationships with their wives.

Or am I not getting it? If you mean, literally, "posture about their sexual prowess with each other" as in, actually with each other -- again there seems no need to posture; they already know about that!

Offline henrypie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 469
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2006, 02:46:17 pm »
Maybe it's only once they've been together that they've found the need/ability to lie to each other.  Ennis admits to being a virgin when he's innocent; after years of lying to protect the relationship, I don't know that he would have told the same truth.  Lying becomes a habit.

Does Ennis ever lie to Jack?

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2006, 02:57:10 pm »
Does Ennis ever lie to Jack?

Yes.  When Jack says "What about you?" in the motel room and he says, "Me?  I dunno..."  BullSHIT.  He does know.  He has to know.  In the story, though, I'd say that no, Ennis never lies to Jack.
No more beans!

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2006, 03:58:55 pm »
Well, I'd hesitate to call "Me? I dunno" an out-and-out lie. I wish he would have said something more profound, but it just seems like another example of his verbal reticence. Similarly, I wouldn't think of it as a lie when he tells Jack he's sendin up a prayer of thanks for him forgettin his harmonica. Ennis just can't talk about his feelings.

Jack lies a lot, but his motivation is usually to protect Ennis, so I don't really blame him for it.

In other words, I don't think of either of them as habitually lying to each other, or doing so in any sort of harmful or callous way.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2006, 10:06:32 pm »
They both lie to each other.
And yes, Victoria is right. When Ennis says he is "putting the blocks" to a good-looking girl in Riverton, she is actually putting the blocks to him. He doesn't know anything about seducing girls.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,288
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: Did anyone else notice this
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2006, 10:07:22 pm »
BTW, DavidinHartford, Shit, that's hard.
"chewing gum and duct tape"