Author Topic: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers  (Read 14160 times)

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« on: February 28, 2006, 10:41:45 am »
I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day about Brokeback Mountain.  He's gay and in a relationship with someone for several years now.  When I broached the issue of BBM with him and told him about my efforts here on BetterMost, I was stunned to hear his reaction to the movie.  He thought it was terrible.  He didn't actually go and see it in a theater, he saw it from one of those copies that suddenly and mysteriously appeared on his computer.  I was floored to hear things like:

- the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

AIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DID WE SEE THE SAME MOVIE???!!!

I was really surprised to hear this kind of stuff and I could feel my temperature rising as I was listening to it.  My immediate reaction was to begin an all out defense and debate concerning what planet he flew to to get these kinds of reactions.  Normally movies for me are not deeply personal things - I despise Adam Sandler for example, but when I tell an Adam Sandler fan most of his films are always the same thing over and over, they don't flip out.  I liked Pleasantville quite a bit (except for the bang bang over the head with the way too obvious use of the metaphor gun) but if someone told me it was awful, I would shrug my shoulders and move on.  But when it comes to BBM, hearing people trash it evokes a reaction inside me as if someone was out to beat and bash Jack and Ennis and defenses go on maximum.

I was truly, surprisingly, offended to hear these remarks.  After a few minutes of debate I realized my friend just didn't get it.  And he should because he's a lot like Ennis in many ways, and just as stubborn.  Over the years, we've had issues that led me to put him on my "list" of people I need a break from because he was driving me nuts.  But I'm loyal to friends so it's not like I am telling him "never call again."

Obviously, he was factually wrong about the characters anyway - Ennis always remained true to Jack as his one male partner, although Jack did drift but only out of frustration with Ennis.  He was wrong about the characters being stereotypical for not committing to the relationship -- a lot of younger gay guys won't commit because they want to explore around and they are not ready to settle down.  In BBM's case, it was Ennis' fear alone which kept them apart.  It -was- a depressing film because it showed the extension of what bigotry, fear, and hatred can do to honest love.  I saw this as an overall plus for the gay community, especially in showing the power of true love and the consequences for everybody when negative forces interfere.  That was exactly what led Jack and Ennis to marry women in the first place - because it was expected.  I would never condone someone marrying someone just to prove they can fit in; it's cruel to the person you marry and to yourself.  But my perspective is colored by the fact I am much younger than the characters on screen, and I have the luxury of speaking on this contemporaneously.

But there is a real problem for us BBM evangelists out there when we confront the non-believers.  We cannot threaten them with eternal damnation, but perhaps we should taunt them ruthlessly for preferring Final Destination 3.   :P
 
 
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Offline Thomas M. Witherspoon

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 03:07:02 pm »
My conservative but normally open-minded immediate family really surprised me when an article appeared in our local paper "Brokeback Mountain - 'A' for artistry; 'F' for morality". My elderly mother felt the need to remind me that she was somewhat conservative and said that she was concerned by what she had read. My brother also commented to me that the men in the film were cheating on their wives. I explained to both of them that there was so much more to this story then what they were reading in this article and I recommended that they read the novella. I explained that being open about who they were in their environment would have had fatal consequences for these men, so they had limited choices. To my knowledge, neither one has read the novella.. To be fair, my mother is 90 and has had health problems aplenty over the past 4 months. She has always been a reader (with large type these days). Lately she has heard so many positive things about the film she has changed her mind to a certain degree - its hard to argue with so many awards. I sent the short story to my brother and he has yet to read it. My brother is especially sensitive to hearing about "Brokeback" and his eyes fly skyward if he hears me say anything at all about it - funny how I listened to everything that was important to him because his happiness was important to me. My other, older brother and his wife seemed more inclined to read and wanted to see the film. This has been a frustrating thing for me because the novella and film have really touched me on so many levels. :-\

Jack, in his dark camp, saw Ennis as night fire, a red spark on the huge black mass of mountain.

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 06:12:42 pm »
Philip and Tom... you are lucky you can say anything about the movie to anyone. I cant talk about it. If I even said I saw it at the shop I would be laughed right outta there. The whole movie topic is in a closet!


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2006, 08:53:17 am »
I was truly, surprisingly, offended to hear these remarks.  After a few minutes of debate I realized my friend just didn't get it.  And he should because he's a lot like Ennis in many ways, and just as stubborn.  Over the years, we've had issues that led me to put him on my "list" of people I need a break from because he was driving me nuts.  But I'm loyal to friends so it's not like I am telling him "never call again."

Hallelujah!  *claps hands and waives in the air*

I was starting to get a little worried that our great benefactor of the BetterMost forum, that beautifully eloquent and prolific author of the prose-so-wise, would eternally be the voice of balance and reason and never dare to stir up a a little controversy!  *hugs* to you Phillip, I love your work, but thank God there is an actual real human being in there, not some Vulcan or something!  :D

I must admit that my first thought was to "balance" your passion with a little bit of "people will see this film through their own eyes and with their own experiences in mind".  But no, I just don't believe it!  It's just not good enough!  I've got a number of dear but straight friends that, for all intents and purposes and outwardly perceptions, love and accept me for who I am and have never given me a single reason to be self conscious.  Nevertheless, when it came to BBM I was told by several of them that they were worried about watching it or getting other friends/partners to watch it or talk about it, and that the gay sex/kissing scenes were or would be "difficult" for them because they are not used to watching it.  Ok, these people are straight, but before anyone runs to their defence saying I need to be sympathetic, these same people take pride in telling me and others how mature and open they are on the gay topic, and particularly, how comfortable they are with their sexuality.  Hmmm.

Ha, I exclaim!  It's about time you grow up, I say!  For all of my (close) friends I have made BBM mandatory viewing.  I say, if you want to brag about how modern and balanced you are, and say that your one of the "good guys", then it's time to put up or shut up!  As for my gay friends, so far so good, but one said he didn't want to see it because he didn't think it would be as good as all the hype.  Fair enough I said, it's certainly happened before, but you better watch it first or fear my cries of consternation and endless reminders to go and see it.

But back to you Phillip and your poor and pathetic friend.  My only advice is to refer to one of my most reliable life sayings, "you can't blame someone for being stupid, as it's not their fault".
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Offline John Passaniti

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2006, 10:59:29 am »
I was floored to hear things like:

- the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

Does the following sound familiar?

"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read,
and that the reader finishes it through his or her life
experience, prejudices, world view
and thoughts." -- Annie Proulx

Why assume that just because your friend is gay and in a relationship that he would "get" any of the themes in the film?  Being gay (and even being in a relationship) doesn't automatically grant the individual depth or empathy, and it doesn't free the individual from having an agenda.

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2006, 11:15:54 am »
Does the following sound familiar?

"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read,
and that the reader finishes it through his or her life
experience, prejudices, world view
and thoughts." -- Annie Proulx

Why assume that just because your friend is gay and in a relationship that he would "get" any of the themes in the film?  Being gay (and even being in a relationship) doesn't automatically grant the individual depth or empathy, and it doesn't free the individual from having an agenda.

In order to finish the story, you actually have to understand it.  When a conclusion is based on factually inaccurate information, it's not much different that the people who are "finishing the story" by never seeing the film in the first place.  I don't mind if people bring different conclusions to the table, but let's at least make sure they are based on actual things in the film. 

"The film was great up until Tom Cruise went to Ennis' trailer and told him his path to happiness would be to fight the alien invaders and then join the Church of Scientology."    :-\  At times, taken to comedic extreme, that was what I was feeling I was hearing.

I have no doubt there will be a lot of people who will finish the story in their own lives when they slip the DVD into the rental return slot at Blockbuster.  But I don't have to be happy knowing these people.
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Offline Impish

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2006, 06:39:42 pm »
He didn't actually go and see it in a theater, he saw it from one of those copies that suddenly and mysteriously appeared on his computer.

This makes me very suspicious.  I don't think he did see BBM after all.  He's just repeating tidbits he's heard from people.... 

Sounds to me like a gay friend of mine who is afraid of seeing BBM because he's been burned so many times before with gay-themed films.  He's tired of it, and nothing I say will convince him to try one more time.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2006, 09:50:55 pm »
I have no doubt there will be a lot of people who will finish the story in their own lives when they slip the DVD into the rental return slot at Blockbuster.  But I don't have to be happy knowing these people.

Testify!  *Claps and dances another jig*

Ok, ok, I'll be serious.  :D The thing that just blows me away with this film is that people and groups, who are so desperately wanting to criticise BBM, are limited to vague or skewed interpretations that leave you wondering if they were watching the same film as everyone else.  I'm not going to quote or link to a particular sectarian religion (who we all know is terrified that one small slip in their demonising might actually bring the whole thing crashing down) have trouble casting aspurtions beyond a principled, albeit paraphrased, "as good a film as BBM is, we cannot condone it because it goes against our beliefs - and don't forget they were adulterers".

But back to Dealing with the BB Non-Believers.  Well one thing that I have tried to keep in mind is there have been many films in my life that trusted friends have loved and I haven't, even if we both like the genre, and I haven't really been able to explain why.  Maybe it was the timing, or my frame of mind, but there would be something about some films that I would find irritating, or worse, uninteresting.  Rarely has there been a time when I could change my view of a film after this first conclusion, with the Princess Bride coming to mind as an example of an inital dislike turning to later enjoyment.

So I try to keep a balanced mind and accept that maybe this was their turn to see a film that I adore, but they cannot see why we love it?  Maybe it's the simple fact that we love it SOOOOoooo much that is confounding the non-believers.  It becomes a principle that they cannot allow them to appreciate it because in a way they feel like they no longer have a choice, since "giving in to absolute pleasure" would somehow also be admitting defeat or sound like they're jumping on the band wagon.

One thing though, I think that anyone that says they watched in on their PC does not quality IMO as having a valid opinion.  If that was ok then next we'll start listening to people saying the scenery wasn't that good when they only viewed the film using their mobile phone!
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2006, 01:57:10 am »
He didn't actually go and see it in a theater, he saw it from one of those copies that suddenly and mysteriously appeared on his computer.

This makes me very suspicious.  I don't think he did see BBM after all.  He's just repeating tidbits he's heard from people.... 

Sounds to me like a gay friend of mine who is afraid of seeing BBM because he's been burned so many times before with gay-themed films.  He's tired of it, and nothing I say will convince him to try one more time.

I suspect he saw it.  Whether he paid attention to it is another thing.  He wouldn't lie to me about it.  I am considering showing him the film scene by scene and then stopping it, discussing it, and then hitting the play button again.   :)

Let's face it, there has been some real junk out there in gay cinema.  A lot of it is overwrought soap opera low budget romance flicks with cliche dialogue.  No thanks.  The worst gay film I have seen was this awfully acted, videotaped film about a bunch of people who head to Hawaii to grieve over the loss of a close friend to AIDS who sit around a fire and... I don't know what word is right here... vent/lament/expose.  It was unwatchable to me in part because of what I felt was terrible acting.  The filmmakers never bothered to make sure viewers were invested emotionally in the characters either.  For me, it was as easy to hit the off switch as it would be to flip a channel during a daytime chat show.

I am generally cynical about gay-targeted movies because there have been a lot of bad ones.  But this one goes so far beyond any movie involving gay people, it's not even in the same league.  It's like comparing Freddie Got Fingered to Gandhi.

Oh wait, that's probably not the analogy I wanted to make...   :o

Well, yes it is, but for the right reasons!
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Offline twistedude

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2006, 01:17:15 pm »
Bob's perfect answer:

Last December, when nobody knew that everyone was going to see BBM, I recommended it to my sister, and added "and pleasse tell *** (sophisticated gay friend of hers) to see it, and I'd like to talk to him about it afterwards."

Sister: "Why on earth would *** be interested in a movie about gay cowboys?"

Just told Bob last night,. he said:

"Because he is a gay cowboy himself."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 01:23:33 pm by julie01 »
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 02:22:54 am »
My observation (and admittedly it's is a generalization) is that the gay men who don't "get" BBM have a very contrarian streak in their points of view. The gay men that I know who hate this film, invariably have this personality trait. They often have a need to criticize the status quo and tend to like, no relish being an outsider. They use the film to criticize the Hollywood establishment, even though the film didn't come from the establishment. They use the film to criticize stereotypes, thought no one representation can break stereotypes all by itself. They focus on the minute details instead of seeing the bigger picture. They see the conventions, instead of seeing how the convention is used to turn it on its head. Often, they are young, angry, and militant. Many of us were that way, when we first came out. I was. As was my younger brother. I think I might not have appreciated the film had it come out in my early 20's. I guess for now, I'll just let be, as far as these angry gay men are concerned. We all mellow out eventually, and maybe then, they'll be able to appreciate the story for what it is.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2006, 04:14:17 am »
My observation (and admittedly it's is a generalization) is that the gay men who don't "get" BBM have a very contrarian streak in their points of view...

Gee, they seem like real "fun types" to be around.  Come to think of it, I do know one of these types myself and I make sure I keep a safe distance.  From what I can see they get very little enjoyment out of anything unless it involves putting others down or in their place.  Not really the sort of person who's opinion I would seek out.

Being a fairly even keeled, live-and-let-live person myself, I don't have a problem with anyone not liking BBM or anything else that I love.  After all there have been plenty of films that others have enjoyed that possibly have merit but I didn't like - Requiem for a Dream comes to mind.  But I do have a problem with the contrarians spreading their "good cheer" in my direction.  I just wish they'd find something they do like and go off and do it.  Far, far away from me! ;)
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2006, 08:30:54 am »
My observation (and admittedly it's is a generalization) is that the gay men who don't "get" BBM have a very contrarian streak in their points of view...

Gee, they seem like real "fun types" to be around. 

lol. anyone remember carmenjonez?
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2006, 08:52:19 am »
I do, Starbie!  And of all the openly gay men in my company (I know of five off-hand), one of them is just like that and had the same criticisms for the movie.  And he is exactly like that - it seems he feels that the only way to keep the upper hand is to keep putting everything and everyone around him down.  The other four men, all very disparate in background and taste, thought it was one of the best movies they've ever seen.  One is rivalling me for most times viewed.  The others have just seen it for the second time since it came out on DVD and plan to buy it.

And Phillip, I *so* know what you mean about starting to feel not so happy about knowing your friend.  I've had a woman friend for years that I wish I could cut loose.  But it goes against my grain to be disloyal, no matter how damaging an established relationship is.  Friends who know her say, "I can't believe you still talk to her after the things she's said to you."  Glutton for punishment, I guess.  Oh, and she's the one I mentioned at the old CT a while back who said she'd never see this movie because "man on man action isn't her thing."  Mind you, this girl is the biggest potty-mouth you'd ever come across.  More than happy to give you all the dirty details of every single sexual encounter (many extra-maritally) she's ever had.  Ugh.  Hypocritical much?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 08:57:36 am by ednbarby »
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Offline RouxB

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 12:46:49 am »
I pretty much had to give up on trying to "educate" friends. Initially I took everyone person I knew and loved to see it but at some point their lack of gushing love started to bug me as I was taking it personally. Now, if I feel the person is worth it-like my sister-I direct them to IMDb (with warnings about the trolls) or forward some of the great saved threads I have. This has given at least 2 of my friends a whole new lease on the movie.

One of my other friends tried to stage a "Brokeback Mountain Intervention" I told her to f**k off  :P

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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2006, 10:34:40 am »
I don't think this movie universally appeals to any particular group - gay men or straight women or astronauts or immigrant farm workers...it appeals on the level of some internal emotional recognition.  Folks who don't have the receptors for it just don't, and belonging to any particular cultural, sexual, religious, etc., group doesn't make that happen.

I remember seeing Terms of Endearment, and listening to audience members sobbing at the story, and all I could think was "what a bunch of emotionally manipulative crap this is!"  There's no circumstance under which I would have felt differently - I don't have the right receptors to appreciate that filmic experience.  And lots of people don't have it for BBM.

The people who think it's slow and boring aren't just being contrary - they really do think that.  I can think of many lauded films I feel that way about (you don't even want to hear my list).  No friend, no matter how sincerely intentioned, would change that.  Even if I understood why they liked it, I still wouldn't feel what they felt.

BBM is a touchstone for me, but I just can't assume being gay or anything else, means you 'get it'.  Maybe it's most important to live the message of BBM, instead of convincing others to watch it or arguing about their understanding.  And then our friends will get the message of hope and redemption and healing and love and whatever else we felt through us, even if they don't get it from the movie.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 10:36:41 am by yaadpyar »
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Offline twistedude

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2006, 04:07:41 pm »
Lately, I just get mad...I know, I shouldn't.

"Is there a fuckin' problem with that?"
« Last Edit: April 11, 2006, 04:09:27 pm by julie01 »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2006, 04:59:26 pm »
Ooh, Julie.  Love the still shot.  And I react the same way.  I say, "If you wanna keep livin' your ignorant fuckin' life, you go right ahead."  OK, mostly I just think that.  But it still makes me feel better.

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Offline sparkle_motion

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2006, 05:33:49 pm »
I have a rather odd experience. A coworker of mine is racist, homophobic, etc. I finally convinced her to see Brokeback. She saw it, loved it, cried. For about a week after that, she said she "loves gay people! and they should definitely be allowed to marry", etc. Now, a month later, she is back to her old ways...making derogatory comments about homosexuals and such. It's very weird and very frustrating (I can't stop myself from arguing with her every time she does it.)
It seems she lost/forgot the lesson that Brokeback taught her.
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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2006, 08:55:52 pm »
Julie -

I'm so impressed with your graphics talent.  You always talk about technological challenges, so I'm even more impressed that you keep finding and posting these great pics!
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2006, 09:17:22 pm »
I sometimes cannot stand the Non-Believers... I mean, I don't want everybody praising this movie because it would become everyone's movie as opposed to our's (Brokies, I mean). When it's people I'm with in person, they're not as hard on the ears as a lot of people on IMDB. All of my friends who have seen the film thought it was dull as all hell and "didn't live up to the hype." I just can't get past some people's wildly indifferent or even negative views on this movie...
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2006, 01:50:29 pm »
I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day about Brokeback Mountain.  He's gay and in a relationship with someone for several years now.  When I broached the issue of BBM with him and told him about my efforts here on BetterMost, I was stunned to hear his reaction to the movie.  He thought it was terrible.  He didn't actually go and see it in a theater, he saw it from one of those copies that suddenly and mysteriously appeared on his computer.  I was floored to hear things like:

- the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

AIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DID WE SEE THE SAME MOVIE???!!!

I was really surprised to hear this kind of stuff and I could feel my temperature rising as I was listening to it.  My immediate reaction was to begin an all out defense and debate concerning what planet he flew to to get these kinds of reactions.  Normally movies for me are not deeply personal things - I despise Adam Sandler for example, but when I tell an Adam Sandler fan most of his films are always the same thing over and over, they don't flip out.  I liked Pleasantville quite a bit (except for the bang bang over the head with the way too obvious use of the metaphor gun) but if someone told me it was awful, I would shrug my shoulders and move on.  But when it comes to BBM, hearing people trash it evokes a reaction inside me as if someone was out to beat and bash Jack and Ennis and defenses go on maximum.

I was truly, surprisingly, offended to hear these remarks.  After a few minutes of debate I realized my friend just didn't get it.  And he should because he's a lot like Ennis in many ways, and just as stubborn.  Over the years, we've had issues that led me to put him on my "list" of people I need a break from because he was driving me nuts.  But I'm loyal to friends so it's not like I am telling him "never call again."

Obviously, he was factually wrong about the characters anyway - Ennis always remained true to Jack as his one male partner, although Jack did drift but only out of frustration with Ennis.  He was wrong about the characters being stereotypical for not committing to the relationship -- a lot of younger gay guys won't commit because they want to explore around and they are not ready to settle down.  In BBM's case, it was Ennis' fear alone which kept them apart.  It -was- a depressing film because it showed the extension of what bigotry, fear, and hatred can do to honest love.  I saw this as an overall plus for the gay community, especially in showing the power of true love and the consequences for everybody when negative forces interfere.  That was exactly what led Jack and Ennis to marry women in the first place - because it was expected.  I would never condone someone marrying someone just to prove they can fit in; it's cruel to the person you marry and to yourself.  But my perspective is colored by the fact I am much younger than the characters on screen, and I have the luxury of speaking on this contemporaneously.

But there is a real problem for us BBM evangelists out there when we confront the non-believers.  We cannot threaten them with eternal damnation, but perhaps we should taunt them ruthlessly for preferring Final Destination 3.   :P
 
 


I have several friends and acquaintances, both gay and straight, who didn't like Brokeback Mountain. And like you, I got mad at them, and tried to convice them otherwise. You would not believe their reasons, some were even silly. Then on my 5th or 6th viewing at the theater this guy who was sitting next to me started to cry loud and uncontrolably just when the movie ended. I, along with two other people tried to confort him. He was really upset. He kept saying he hated the movie, but he kept crying. And that's when it hit me. That's when I finally understood why some poeple dislike BBM, because it's too real. It deals with topics not everybody is comfortable with. The story makes some people realize mistakes they have made in the past; it makes them remember painful experiences they didn't want to remember; it makes them feel guilty for past behaviors and so on. So, now everytime I hear someone say they didn't like the movie, I stop and think before reacting because I don't know what chord the movie touched on that person. Brokeback Mountain is a tough movie and not everybody can deal with it.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2006, 02:23:24 pm »
I have several friends and acquaintances, both gay and straight, who didn't like Brokeback Mountain. And like you, I got mad at them, and tried to convice them otherwise. You would not believe their reasons, some were even silly. Then on my 5th or 6th viewing at the theater this guy who was sitting next to me started to cry loud and uncontrolably just when the movie ended. I, along with two other people tried to confort him. He was really upset. He kept saying he hated the movie, but he kept crying. And that's when it hit me. That's when I finally understood why some poeple dislike BBM, because it's too real. It deals with topics not everybody is comfortable with. The story makes some people realize mistakes they have made in the past; it makes them remember painful experiences they didn't want to remember; it makes them feel guilty for past behaviors and so on. So, now everytime I hear someone say they didn't like the movie, I stop and think before reacting because I don't know what chord the movie touched on that person. Brokeback Mountain is a tough movie and not everybody can deal with it.

Excellent point.  I was just thinking about this last night (go figure!  ;)).  It came to me after I turned off "The Door in the Floor," which a co-worker to whom I had highly recommended Brokeback (and who didn't really like it all that much) had recommended highly to me.  I turned it off because after a promising start in which Kim Basinger's character was shown non-verbally experiencing serious clinical depression in a manner that struck a chord in me, once they all started talking, not a word of it rang true.  Whoever wrote the dialog DOES NOT GET HOW PEOPLE REALLY TALK.  It just bugged the crap outta me.  Then I remembered how this same co-worker later saw "Crash" after having seen BBM and *raved* about how great it was, how it totally deserved the Oscar, blah, blah, blah.  And this thought struck me:  She must not like anything that's too real.  Some people, I guess, like movies that are contrived because it takes them completely out of their own life situations and plunks them somewhere else for a couple of hours - it's just pure escapism to them - like an extended and relatively pleasant acid trip.  Then they sober up, walk out, and get on with their lives, not giving what they've seen another thought.  That's entertainment to them.

I think they must actually see the whole point of movies as being completely different from how we here see it.

In order for me to thoroughly enjoy a movie, I have to believe those characters are *real*.  Every word they say has to sound like exactly what someone in that real-life situation would say.  Everything they do has to be likewise.  Otherwise, I don't care about them and it falls flat.  As soon as the characters opened their mouths in this movie last night, I stopped believing them.  Every one of them.  And it was over.  Similarly, I have to connect with those characters in some way that comes from my own experience.  Even if it's an unlikable character, if he shows me some vulnerability - some questioning of whether he believes the things he says and does are really right, I can connect.  But a character can be written to be the most likable and vulnerable person in the world, and if what they say doesn't ring true, I can't connect.

To me, what movies are supposed to accomplish and what they do accmomplish when they truly are works of art is this:  They show me an undeniable truth about myself - about the human condition and my experience in it.

I have no problem with pure escapism - I love a great comedy or a well-done shoot-em-up as much as the next guy.  But when a movie preens itself to be great drama and then presents characters who would never say and do in a million years the things they say and do, it's failed.  Utterly.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2006, 02:28:39 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2006, 07:11:41 pm »
Quote
And this thought struck me:  She must not like anything that's too real.  Some people, I guess, like movies that are contrived because it takes them completely out of their own life situations and plunks them somewhere else for a couple of hours - it's just pure escapism to them - like an extended and relatively pleasant acid trip. 

That's true. A lot of peope do that. They go to movies to get away from whatever is bothering them. I do it sometimes, especially now that I'm trying to finish my dissertation. I get so stress out sometimes that I just go to the movies to disconnect. There's a theater just around the corner from where I live, which coincidentally is still showing Brokeback Mountain!!! At limited times though, just fridays and saturdays after midnight. (Went to see it last Friday but today I rented a DVD). All I have to do is go down the elevator, walk a few step up the sidewalk and I'm there.

I like to see tought provoking, well acted, well written and well done movies. Fortunateluy that theater I just told you about usually shows good movies. I saw Volver the other day, Almodovar's new flick, and also Transamerica, which I loved.  Great movie, very well acted by Felicity Huffman.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline David

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2006, 07:22:58 pm »
that's when it hit me. That's when I finally understood why some poeple dislike BBM, because it's too real. It deals with topics not everybody is comfortable with. The story makes some people realize mistakes they have made in the past; it makes them remember painful experiences they didn't want to remember; it makes them feel guilty for past behaviors and so on.

Oddly enough,  I bought the book after my first viewing.   After my second viewing I was so upset and disturbed I threw the book away  ( I was crying too much from reading it )  and after my third viewing I was such a wreck I wish I had never heard of Brokeback Mountain.

Things got worse before they got better.    But now I am happy about BBM.    It has changed my world.   I have met so many good people thru it. 

I can understand why some people don't "get it".  They haven't embraced the movie yet.

The ones that bother me are the "I wont watch it because it was over hyped" types.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2006, 12:23:10 pm »
The ones that bother me are the "I wont watch it because it was over hyped" types.

Oh, no doubt!  That's *exactly* what that ex-friend I alluded to in my initial post of the Ridiculous/Sublime thread is trying to pass off as her reason for not seeing it, this after she says to me, and I quote, "I'm tired of people getting labeled as homophobes just because they don't view homosexuals the same way Ang Lee does."

We got PMing each other in a little mini-debate (mini- only because I decided it wasn't worth my time, and because the last thing I said to her probably made her so mad she'll never write to me again).  I told her I didn't want to argue anymore, let's just agree to disagree, etc.  She could have let it drop, but she fires back, "I can't believe you'd sacrifice a friendship because of a movie."  I wrote back "I'm not sacrificing our friendship because of a movie.  I'm sacrificing our friendship because you *are* a shameless homophobe.  Hey, if the label fits..."

Am I being too harsh, myself, in judging others?  I worry that in a way I'm guilty of the very thing I so strongly preach against - intolerance.  I mean, if I were truly universally tolerant, I suppose I'd have some compassion for the ignorant, too.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 12:25:02 pm by ednbarby »
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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2006, 12:56:09 pm »
Both the book and movie are highly disturbing! I can't pinpoint a single reason, really! I mean I have read several books, watched lots of Movies both Indian and otherwise but none have affected me as much as this duo. Before I saw the movie I was quite fat, but suddenly after I had watched it - I went into a crash diet and exercise regime and have managed to reduce few pounds. What I mean is that this  BOOK is a MIRACLE. I might hurt some people but I have started comparing this book with holy books like BIBLE and GITA!

YES THIS IS A HOLY BOOK! A MIRACLE! AN INSTITUTION! I PREDICT A CULT FOLLOWING FOR THIS BEAUTY!

Offline ghent

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2006, 12:26:02 am »
Quote
- the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

I loved BBM, but I can understand why certain gays and lesbians might hate it. Ennis Del-Mar, in particular, is little more than an extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of.  Replace Ennis' homosexuality, such as it is, with a gambling addiction or alchoholism, and BBM is just Lonesome Dove circa 1963, a depressing western that has been told many times before. For post-Stonewall queers, especially queers in long-term relationships living in urban areas, the Ennis Del Mar character is dated, a painful throwback to an earlier era.

The Jack Twist of 'BBM-the movie', on the other hand, is something to celebrate. A well-adjusted, personable, rural, out (to himself) gay man who believes in love and long-lasting commitment is something that mainstream America has never seen in a Hollywood film.

My suspicion, therefore, is that some post-Stonewall queers perceive BBM as Ennis-centric, while other perceive BBM as Jack-centric. Those in the latter category probably enjoy the film more, cry only when Jack suffers, and remain relatively unmoved by Ennis' suffering on his job, in his family, and in his relationship with Jack.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 12:33:03 am by ghent »

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2006, 06:51:46 am »
I loved BBM, but I can understand why certain gays and lesbians might hate it. Ennis Del-Mar, in particular, is little more than an extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of.  Replace Ennis' homosexuality, such as it is, with a gambling addiction or alchoholism, and BBM is just Lonesome Dove circa 1963, a depressing western that has been told many times before. For post-Stonewall queers, especially queers in long-term relationships living in urban areas, the Ennis Del Mar character is dated, a painful throwback to an earlier era.

Wow ghent, the way you say this makes me think that you actually agree with this sentiment.

Quick, tell me something you like about BBM and rescue me from this thought!

Quote
My suspicion, therefore, is that some post-Stonewall queers perceive BBM as Ennis-centric, while other perceive BBM as Jack-centric. Those in the latter category probably enjoy the film more, cry only when Jack suffers, and remain relatively unmoved by Ennis' suffering on his job, in his family, and in his relationship with Jack.

I couldn't disagree with this more.  No, no, no.  Please tell me this isn't true!  BBM is not Ennis-centric or Jack-centric, it's Ennis-And-Jack-centric.  Please, say something nice quickly.  These thoughts are scary! ???
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline opinionista

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2006, 11:24:24 am »
I loved BBM, but I can understand why certain gays and lesbians might hate it. Ennis Del-Mar, in particular, is little more than an extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of.  Replace Ennis' homosexuality, such as it is, with a gambling addiction or alchoholism, and BBM is just Lonesome Dove circa 1963, a depressing western that has been told many times before. For post-Stonewall queers, especially queers in long-term relationships living in urban areas, the Ennis Del Mar character is dated, a painful throwback to an earlier era.

The Jack Twist of 'BBM-the movie', on the other hand, is something to celebrate. A well-adjusted, personable, rural, out (to himself) gay man who believes in love and long-lasting commitment is something that mainstream America has never seen in a Hollywood film.

My suspicion, therefore, is that some post-Stonewall queers perceive BBM as Ennis-centric, while other perceive BBM as Jack-centric. Those in the latter category probably enjoy the film more, cry only when Jack suffers, and remain relatively unmoved by Ennis' suffering on his job, in his family, and in his relationship with Jack.



Well, then they're missing the whole point! To me Brokeback is much more than just a love story between two men. It's the struggle to deal with what you feel and who you are, versus what society expect you to feel and be.

Ennis as you say, could be an "extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight closeted gay man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of" but WHY? Any child who taken by his own father to see the corpse of man who not only was beaten to death but was also tortured for being gay, and later in life discovers he's gay too will become an "extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate", person.

The movie shows what social control and homophobia can do to people. Ennis is doomed not because he's gay but because he feels forced to pretend not to be.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 11:46:11 am by opinionista »
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Offline David

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2006, 11:37:50 am »
  Please, say something nice quickly.  These thoughts are scary! ???


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Offline ghent

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2006, 04:50:06 pm »
Quote
Wow ghent, the way you say this makes me think that you actually agree with this sentiment.
Quick, tell me something you like about BBM and rescue me from this thought!

Sorry, I stand by everything that I said. Ennis is a completely dysfunctional man in every aspect of his life except for his relationship with his kids. His dysfunctionality pathologizes virtually every aspect of his relationship with Jack. Jack Twist is an incredible character in my opinion, but his relationship with Ennis does expose a co-dependent, enabling side to queer life that gays and lesbians need to permanently leave behind them. 

Quote
I couldn't disagree with this more.  No, no, no.  Please tell me this isn't true!  BBM is not Ennis-centric or Jack-centric, it's Ennis-And-Jack-centric.  Please, say something nice quickly.  These thoughts are scary! ???

In Annie Proulx's mind, and in the minds of many critics, BBM was Ennic-centric, not Jack and Ennis-centric. Ennis was also the favorite of straight-guy viewers of BBM, as well as many straight women desperate to understand the 'down low' syndrome. This is deeply problematic for urban queers in relationships.

Offline opinionista

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2006, 05:55:20 pm »
Jack Twist is an incredible character in my opinion, but his relationship with Ennis does expose a co-dependent, enabling side to queer life that gays and lesbians need to permanently leave behind them. 

Co-dependency is not just a part of queer life. It happens to everybody, gay, straight, bi or whatever. It's a human disease.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2006, 08:24:24 pm »
His dysfunctionality pathologizes virtually every aspect of his relationship with Jack. Jack Twist is an incredible character in my opinion, but his relationship with Ennis does expose a co-dependent, enabling side to queer life that gays and lesbians need to permanently leave behind them. 

Oh, ok then, for one minute there I thought I might have misinterpreted you. :-\

I think we saw two different films, I get nothing of what you say here.  C'est la vie...
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2006, 08:38:13 pm »
Co-dependency is not just a part of queer life. It happens to everybody, gay, straight, bi or whatever. It's a human disease.


Oh yeah - absolutely.  No group of like-minded inviduals gets to claim rights to univerally experienced human frailties, or exemption from them.  This is the kind of stuff that we work on individually and incrementally, inside our own hearts and lives, not in grand political or philosophical gestures. 
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline ghent

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2006, 09:19:05 pm »
Quote
Oh, ok then, for one minute there I thought I might have misinterpreted you. :-\

I think we saw two different films, I get nothing of what you say here.  C'est la vie...

We didn't see two different films; we saw the same film totally differently. That's why BBM is a classic in the making; it is a tragedy capable of invoking incredibly different reactions from different people. But what is the tragedy, ultimately? Is the tragedy that Jack and Ennis, two arguably homosexual people, never had a chance to spend their lives together? Or is the tragedy that Jack, a closeted gay man, spent twenty years of his life trying to convince a dysfunctional, emotionally-crippled and psycho-sexually confused man that he was really gay? The romantic 'believer' in me wants to embrace the former interpretation, but the experienced post-Stonewall queer in me remains open to the latter interpretation.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2008, 11:31:59 pm »
But isn't that true to certain degrees about Brokeback Mountain ?

As quoted on the first post:
          the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

               

Offline Monika

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Re: Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2008, 03:56:32 am »
We didn't see two different films; we saw the same film totally differently. That's why BBM is a classic in the making; it is a tragedy capable of invoking incredibly different reactions from different people. But what is the tragedy, ultimately? Is the tragedy that Jack and Ennis, two arguably homosexual people, never had a chance to spend their lives together? Or is the tragedy that Jack, a closeted gay man, spent twenty years of his life trying to convince a dysfunctional, emotionally-crippled and psycho-sexually confused man that he was really gay? The romantic 'believer' in me wants to embrace the former interpretation, but the experienced post-Stonewall queer in me remains open to the latter interpretation.
I agree that you can interpret the movie in many ways. Another one would be that it is a tragic tale of how one man´s inner fear stops him from making a go with the man he loves, and ultimately looses him because of it.

And how we interpret it much due to our own experiences and what we can relate to in the story.

However, I do think, there´s a main story here that is freestanding from our individual interpretations, and that is a story about how Jack and Ennis can´t bee together because of a homophobic society. What bothers me about the other interpretations is that they leave this part out and focuses on what, for example, is "wrong" with Ennis etc. To me, this is to miss the main point that Annie Proulx is trying to make, and it dimishes the storyline. Annie Proulx has said herself that Brokeback is a story about a homophobic society. She has always been interested in examining how different enviroments, areas, cultures effect the people living in them, and Brokeback is another example of that.