Dealing With the Brokeback Non-Believers

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I sometimes cannot stand the Non-Believers... I mean, I don't want everybody praising this movie because it would become everyone's movie as opposed to our's (Brokies, I mean). When it's people I'm with in person, they're not as hard on the ears as a lot of people on IMDB. All of my friends who have seen the film thought it was dull as all hell and "didn't live up to the hype." I just can't get past some people's wildly indifferent or even negative views on this movie...

[opinionista]

I had a conversation with a friend of mine the other day about Brokeback Mountain.  He's gay and in a relationship with someone for several years now.  When I broached the issue of BBM with him and told him about my efforts here on BetterMost, I was stunned to hear his reaction to the movie.  He thought it was terrible.  He didn't actually go and see it in a theater, he saw it from one of those copies that suddenly and mysteriously appeared on his computer.  I was floored to hear things like:

- the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

AIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DID WE SEE THE SAME MOVIE???!!!

I was really surprised to hear this kind of stuff and I could feel my temperature rising as I was listening to it.  My immediate reaction was to begin an all out defense and debate concerning what planet he flew to to get these kinds of reactions.  Normally movies for me are not deeply personal things - I despise Adam Sandler for example, but when I tell an Adam Sandler fan most of his films are always the same thing over and over, they don't flip out.  I liked Pleasantville quite a bit (except for the bang bang over the head with the way too obvious use of the metaphor gun) but if someone told me it was awful, I would shrug my shoulders and move on.  But when it comes to BBM, hearing people trash it evokes a reaction inside me as if someone was out to beat and bash Jack and Ennis and defenses go on maximum.

I was truly, surprisingly, offended to hear these remarks.  After a few minutes of debate I realized my friend just didn't get it.  And he should because he's a lot like Ennis in many ways, and just as stubborn.  Over the years, we've had issues that led me to put him on my "list" of people I need a break from because he was driving me nuts.  But I'm loyal to friends so it's not like I am telling him "never call again."

Obviously, he was factually wrong about the characters anyway - Ennis always remained true to Jack as his one male partner, although Jack did drift but only out of frustration with Ennis.  He was wrong about the characters being stereotypical for not committing to the relationship -- a lot of younger gay guys won't commit because they want to explore around and they are not ready to settle down.  In BBM's case, it was Ennis' fear alone which kept them apart.  It -was- a depressing film because it showed the extension of what bigotry, fear, and hatred can do to honest love.  I saw this as an overall plus for the gay community, especially in showing the power of true love and the consequences for everybody when negative forces interfere.  That was exactly what led Jack and Ennis to marry women in the first place - because it was expected.  I would never condone someone marrying someone just to prove they can fit in; it's cruel to the person you marry and to yourself.  But my perspective is colored by the fact I am much younger than the characters on screen, and I have the luxury of speaking on this contemporaneously.

But there is a real problem for us BBM evangelists out there when we confront the non-believers.  We cannot threaten them with eternal damnation, but perhaps we should taunt them ruthlessly for preferring Final Destination 3.   
 
 

I have several friends and acquaintances, both gay and straight, who didn't like Brokeback Mountain. And like you, I got mad at them, and tried to convice them otherwise. You would not believe their reasons, some were even silly. Then on my 5th or 6th viewing at the theater this guy who was sitting next to me started to cry loud and uncontrolably just when the movie ended. I, along with two other people tried to confort him. He was really upset. He kept saying he hated the movie, but he kept crying. And that's when it hit me. That's when I finally understood why some poeple dislike BBM, because it's too real. It deals with topics not everybody is comfortable with. The story makes some people realize mistakes they have made in the past; it makes them remember painful experiences they didn't want to remember; it makes them feel guilty for past behaviors and so on. So, now everytime I hear someone say they didn't like the movie, I stop and think before reacting because I don't know what chord the movie touched on that person. Brokeback Mountain is a tough movie and not everybody can deal with it.

[ednbarby]

I have several friends and acquaintances, both gay and straight, who didn't like Brokeback Mountain. And like you, I got mad at them, and tried to convice them otherwise. You would not believe their reasons, some were even silly. Then on my 5th or 6th viewing at the theater this guy who was sitting next to me started to cry loud and uncontrolably just when the movie ended. I, along with two other people tried to confort him. He was really upset. He kept saying he hated the movie, but he kept crying. And that's when it hit me. That's when I finally understood why some poeple dislike BBM, because it's too real. It deals with topics not everybody is comfortable with. The story makes some people realize mistakes they have made in the past; it makes them remember painful experiences they didn't want to remember; it makes them feel guilty for past behaviors and so on. So, now everytime I hear someone say they didn't like the movie, I stop and think before reacting because I don't know what chord the movie touched on that person. Brokeback Mountain is a tough movie and not everybody can deal with it.

Excellent point.  I was just thinking about this last night (go figure!  ).  It came to me after I turned off "The Door in the Floor," which a co-worker to whom I had highly recommended Brokeback (and who didn't really like it all that much) had recommended highly to me.  I turned it off because after a promising start in which Kim Basinger's character was shown non-verbally experiencing serious clinical depression in a manner that struck a chord in me, once they all started talking, not a word of it rang true.  Whoever wrote the dialog DOES NOT GET HOW PEOPLE REALLY TALK.  It just bugged the crap outta me.  Then I remembered how this same co-worker later saw "Crash" after having seen BBM and *raved* about how great it was, how it totally deserved the Oscar, blah, blah, blah.  And this thought struck me:  She must not like anything that's too real.  Some people, I guess, like movies that are contrived because it takes them completely out of their own life situations and plunks them somewhere else for a couple of hours - it's just pure escapism to them - like an extended and relatively pleasant acid trip.  Then they sober up, walk out, and get on with their lives, not giving what they've seen another thought.  That's entertainment to them.

I think they must actually see the whole point of movies as being completely different from how we here see it.

In order for me to thoroughly enjoy a movie, I have to believe those characters are *real*.  Every word they say has to sound like exactly what someone in that real-life situation would say.  Everything they do has to be likewise.  Otherwise, I don't care about them and it falls flat.  As soon as the characters opened their mouths in this movie last night, I stopped believing them.  Every one of them.  And it was over.  Similarly, I have to connect with those characters in some way that comes from my own experience.  Even if it's an unlikable character, if he shows me some vulnerability - some questioning of whether he believes the things he says and does are really right, I can connect.  But a character can be written to be the most likable and vulnerable person in the world, and if what they say doesn't ring true, I can't connect.

To me, what movies are supposed to accomplish and what they do accmomplish when they truly are works of art is this:  They show me an undeniable truth about myself - about the human condition and my experience in it.

I have no problem with pure escapism - I love a great comedy or a well-done shoot-em-up as much as the next guy.  But when a movie preens itself to be great drama and then presents characters who would never say and do in a million years the things they say and do, it's failed.  Utterly.

[opinionista]

And this thought struck me:  She must not like anything that's too real.  Some people, I guess, like movies that are contrived because it takes them completely out of their own life situations and plunks them somewhere else for a couple of hours - it's just pure escapism to them - like an extended and relatively pleasant acid trip. 

That's true. A lot of peope do that. They go to movies to get away from whatever is bothering them. I do it sometimes, especially now that I'm trying to finish my dissertation. I get so stress out sometimes that I just go to the movies to disconnect. There's a theater just around the corner from where I live, which coincidentally is still showing Brokeback Mountain!!! At limited times though, just fridays and saturdays after midnight. (Went to see it last Friday but today I rented a DVD). All I have to do is go down the elevator, walk a few step up the sidewalk and I'm there.

I like to see tought provoking, well acted, well written and well done movies. Fortunateluy that theater I just told you about usually shows good movies. I saw Volver the other day, Almodovar's new flick, and also Transamerica, which I loved.  Great movie, very well acted by Felicity Huffman.

[David]

that's when it hit me. That's when I finally understood why some poeple dislike BBM, because it's too real. It deals with topics not everybody is comfortable with. The story makes some people realize mistakes they have made in the past; it makes them remember painful experiences they didn't want to remember; it makes them feel guilty for past behaviors and so on.

Oddly enough,  I bought the book after my first viewing.   After my second viewing I was so upset and disturbed I threw the book away  ( I was crying too much from reading it )  and after my third viewing I was such a wreck I wish I had never heard of Brokeback Mountain.

Things got worse before they got better.    But now I am happy about BBM.    It has changed my world.   I have met so many good people thru it. 

I can understand why some people don't "get it".  They haven't embraced the movie yet.

The ones that bother me are the "I wont watch it because it was over hyped" types.

[ednbarby]

The ones that bother me are the "I wont watch it because it was over hyped" types.

Oh, no doubt!  That's *exactly* what that ex-friend I alluded to in my initial post of the Ridiculous/Sublime thread is trying to pass off as her reason for not seeing it, this after she says to me, and I quote, "I'm tired of people getting labeled as homophobes just because they don't view homosexuals the same way Ang Lee does."

We got PMing each other in a little mini-debate (mini- only because I decided it wasn't worth my time, and because the last thing I said to her probably made her so mad she'll never write to me again).  I told her I didn't want to argue anymore, let's just agree to disagree, etc.  She could have let it drop, but she fires back, "I can't believe you'd sacrifice a friendship because of a movie."  I wrote back "I'm not sacrificing our friendship because of a movie.  I'm sacrificing our friendship because you *are* a shameless homophobe.  Hey, if the label fits..."

Am I being too harsh, myself, in judging others?  I worry that in a way I'm guilty of the very thing I so strongly preach against - intolerance.  I mean, if I were truly universally tolerant, I suppose I'd have some compassion for the ignorant, too.

[pinku]

Both the book and movie are highly disturbing! I can't pinpoint a single reason, really! I mean I have read several books, watched lots of Movies both Indian and otherwise but none have affected me as much as this duo. Before I saw the movie I was quite fat, but suddenly after I had watched it - I went into a crash diet and exercise regime and have managed to reduce few pounds. What I mean is that this  BOOK is a MIRACLE. I might hurt some people but I have started comparing this book with holy books like BIBLE and GITA!

YES THIS IS A HOLY BOOK! A MIRACLE! AN INSTITUTION! I PREDICT A CULT FOLLOWING FOR THIS BEAUTY!

[ghent]

- the movie continued the stereotype that gay men can't maintain relationships;
- it had two gay guys that refused to settle down with each other;
- it was depressing and an overall negative for the gay community;
- it showed gay people living lies and hurting women and children.

I loved BBM, but I can understand why certain gays and lesbians might hate it. Ennis Del-Mar, in particular, is little more than an extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of.  Replace Ennis' homosexuality, such as it is, with a gambling addiction or alchoholism, and BBM is just Lonesome Dove circa 1963, a depressing western that has been told many times before. For post-Stonewall queers, especially queers in long-term relationships living in urban areas, the Ennis Del Mar character is dated, a painful throwback to an earlier era.

The Jack Twist of 'BBM-the movie', on the other hand, is something to celebrate. A well-adjusted, personable, rural, out (to himself) gay man who believes in love and long-lasting commitment is something that mainstream America has never seen in a Hollywood film.

My suspicion, therefore, is that some post-Stonewall queers perceive BBM as Ennis-centric, while other perceive BBM as Jack-centric. Those in the latter category probably enjoy the film more, cry only when Jack suffers, and remain relatively unmoved by Ennis' suffering on his job, in his family, and in his relationship with Jack.

[Aussie Chris]

I loved BBM, but I can understand why certain gays and lesbians might hate it. Ennis Del-Mar, in particular, is little more than an extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of.  Replace Ennis' homosexuality, such as it is, with a gambling addiction or alchoholism, and BBM is just Lonesome Dove circa 1963, a depressing western that has been told many times before. For post-Stonewall queers, especially queers in long-term relationships living in urban areas, the Ennis Del Mar character is dated, a painful throwback to an earlier era.

Wow ghent, the way you say this makes me think that you actually agree with this sentiment.

Quick, tell me something you like about BBM and rescue me from this thought!

My suspicion, therefore, is that some post-Stonewall queers perceive BBM as Ennis-centric, while other perceive BBM as Jack-centric. Those in the latter category probably enjoy the film more, cry only when Jack suffers, and remain relatively unmoved by Ennis' suffering on his job, in his family, and in his relationship with Jack.

I couldn't disagree with this more.  No, no, no.  Please tell me this isn't true!  BBM is not Ennis-centric or Jack-centric, it's Ennis-And-Jack-centric.  Please, say something nice quickly.  These thoughts are scary!

[opinionista]

I loved BBM, but I can understand why certain gays and lesbians might hate it. Ennis Del-Mar, in particular, is little more than an extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of.  Replace Ennis' homosexuality, such as it is, with a gambling addiction or alchoholism, and BBM is just Lonesome Dove circa 1963, a depressing western that has been told many times before. For post-Stonewall queers, especially queers in long-term relationships living in urban areas, the Ennis Del Mar character is dated, a painful throwback to an earlier era.

The Jack Twist of 'BBM-the movie', on the other hand, is something to celebrate. A well-adjusted, personable, rural, out (to himself) gay man who believes in love and long-lasting commitment is something that mainstream America has never seen in a Hollywood film.

My suspicion, therefore, is that some post-Stonewall queers perceive BBM as Ennis-centric, while other perceive BBM as Jack-centric. Those in the latter category probably enjoy the film more, cry only when Jack suffers, and remain relatively unmoved by Ennis' suffering on his job, in his family, and in his relationship with Jack.

Well, then they're missing the whole point! To me Brokeback is much more than just a love story between two men. It's the struggle to deal with what you feel and who you are, versus what society expect you to feel and be.

Ennis as you say, could be an "extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate, straight closeted gay man with the libidinous equivalent of a bad toothache that he can't get rid of" but WHY? Any child who taken by his own father to see the corpse of man who not only was beaten to death but was also tortured for being gay, and later in life discovers he's gay too will become an "extremely dysfunctional, pathologically incurious, hopelessly repressed, maddeningly inarticulate", person.

The movie shows what social control and homophobia can do to people. Ennis is doomed not because he's gay but because he feels forced to pretend not to be.