Author Topic: Female Sexuality in BBM  (Read 22992 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Female Sexuality in BBM
« on: March 15, 2007, 12:25:25 am »
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here.  But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately.  I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it.  She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc.  This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality. 

So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film.  Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.

I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).

Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like.  As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about.  As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character.  And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often.  So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.

Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck".  I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc.  But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.  It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?



And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 12:50:43 am by atz75 »
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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2007, 12:32:54 am »
Good topic, Amanda! I actually think there is a subcontext in the scene of the fundraising dance, in the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen. But maybe I'm reading things into it. Most of the credit for fleshing out the female characters in the movie needs to go to Larry McMurtry, to whom I doff my somewhat flattened straw cowboy hat. Who can forget the strong and slightly bent female characters he has created, starting with The Last Picture Show, moving on to Terms of Endearment, and now to Brokeback Mountain?!

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 12:37:08 am »
Good topic, Amanda! I actually think there is a subcontext in the scene of the fundraising dance, in the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen.

Hey Bud!

Wow you're fast.  I think you were posting this response as I was still editing my original post!  Yup, I used to try to read something into the interaction between LaShawn and Lureen too... but alas, now I think it was sort of wishful thinking on my part.  I feel sorry for LaShawn too.  Everyone picks on her, but she seems kind of sweet (maybe a little dense and of course talkative, but still sort of sweet).
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2007, 08:52:18 am »
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here.  But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately.  I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it.  She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc.  This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality. 

So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film.  Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.

I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).

Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like.  As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about.  As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character.  And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often.  So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.

Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck".  I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc.  But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.  It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?


Lureen:
" I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it." Well, I think Jack is not only swept along with it, but even kind of taken aback. "You really are in a hurry" (quoted from memory). He almost seems frightened/startled.
Lureen is clearly the pushing and aggressive one of the two. Which had sometimes led to the question if she had already been pregnant by the time of their first encounter. I don't buy this theory, but can imagine Bobby was the product of this first night.

Cassie and Lureen:
At first both Lureen and Cassie seem to be pretty self confident about their sexuality (and about themselves as persons). They know what they want and they take it. But both pick the wrong guy - and yet are willing to stick to him although their sexual life was not the most fulfilling, to say the least. For Lureen, we know that in the end it was non-existing. Cassie? Her and Ennis' sex life can't have been rich and enjoyable in the long haul, simply because he was gay. But I can't picture Cassie to let Ennis do to her what he did to Alma. Unless she wanted to. There are F/M couples who have anal sex. As long as both want it, why not?

Alma:
Oh my, poor Alma. She was so much a product of her time and place. A victim to that specific society as much as Ennis and Jack (more than Cassie and Lureen).
Very long ago we discussed her background, her (assumed) upbringing and the fact that she was downright "trained" to be the woman and wife she was. I believe she simply had not much awareness and therefore no high expectations in regard to her own sexuality and their sex life. Women were trained to obey their husbands, in daily life as well as in the bedroom. And so she let him do what she hated.

I also agree with you about Ennis. As much as I love him - this is too much. It's truly the only thing I hold against him. The fact that he was gay is an explantaion, but in no way an excuse. The only thing that can be said to his credit is (again) their time and upbringings. He was also raised in the believe that men had every right to do what they wanted with their wifes. Even if this was never explicit stated to him (in regard to sex), it was just how the world was, it was 'natural' and a matter of fact.

Quote
And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?

That's a good question. My first thought was that it would have been "too much". But on the other side, Ang Lee is a master of subtle hints. He sure would have been able to work it into the movie just as a little, unobstrusive sidenote. Maybe he really did with the interaction between Lureen and LaShawn? I'm not decided about this.
 

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2007, 11:12:57 am »
I apologize if this is repeating what was said in another thread...

Not that I know of. And even if so, there's no need to apologize. In 158 251 posts there are probably many things said more than once  ;D.

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I'd be surprised if Ennis, in the early years of their marriage, knew she hated anal sex. We see her contorted face, he doesn't. And I'd guess there'd have been no more conversation about sex between the two of them at that point in the marriage than there was between story Ennis and Jack their first summer.

I think you're right about conversations about sex being non-existent. But in the movie, she says a pleading "Ennis, please...". I'm not sure which moment exactly she says it, but I think it's directly before he turns her over.
And the short story says: "...and he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated." Why would he do it quickly, if he didn't know that she hated it?
I believe they didn't talk about the sex and I think you are also right that she didn't tell him that she hated it. But he knew it nonetheless. He was good in 'not knowing' (=ignoring and denying) what he didn't want to know. But deep down he knew it.


Quote
I think it's telling that in the second sexual encounter between them that we see, Ennis doesn't even try to flip Alma over. She's apparently made her feelings clear by then. Which is consistent with the increasing attempts at directness and assertiveness she shows in other scenes.

Great observation. I think you're right that it is telling that Ang Lee chooses to show us the second sexual encounter the way he did, with Ennis not even trying to flip her over.
But for the story, I think it is a bit different. We know they did it both ways (anal and vaginal) from early on in their marriage. We know this from the mentioned scene, which is from their early years and from the fact that Alma got two babies so quickly and short after another.
And Proulx gives us the impression that it stayed this way during their whole marriage. This is from the end of their marriage (the slow corrosion and opening water):
Alma asked Ennis to use rubbers because she dreaded another pregnancy. (=vaginal sex) ...And under that, [Alma] thought, anyway, what you like to do don't make too many babies.(=anal sex)



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2007, 03:35:07 pm »
Cassie: Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

I'm sort of surprised that Cassie put up with Ennis for so long (if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate). She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested in their relationship that he doesn't mention it to his best friend, when he finally does discuss her sounds pretty indifferent, doesn't talk (unlike Carl!) and presumably isn't the greatest in bed. And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2007, 05:06:50 pm »
(if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate).

Still unsolved, this one. Like you, I just don't believe it. For all the reasons you gave.
Additionally, I don't think Cassie would not have let him get away with dumping her just by playing dead. Not after five years. It contradicts sanity and reason. God-knows-what could have happened to Ennis (even if she knew he was alive from Steve). When you've been together for five f'in years, you would believe something bad must have happened to your loved one. So I think she would have sat on the steps of his trailer one evening he got home to finally know what's the matter.

Nope, I think it's not been five years. Or if Ossana/McMurtry/Lee deliberately made it five years (for whatever reason), they may have been wrong. One interpretation comes to my mind, that could be possible: they made it five years indeed deliberately to show poor communication between Ennis and Jack and how much unfathomed ground there was between them.

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2007, 05:12:50 pm »
I'm sort of surprised that Cassie put up with Ennis for so long (if it really was five years, as the movie seems to indicate). She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested in their relationship that he doesn't mention it to his best friend, when he finally does discuss her sounds pretty indifferent, doesn't talk (unlike Carl!) and presumably isn't the greatest in bed. And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!
Yes, but girls don't fall in love with fun, Katherine. (What's the matter with us??!)

If you'd been to that part of Wyoming, (as I recall you've been to Idaho, which is similar) you'd know why Cassie puts up with Ennis for five effen years. Marriageable guys are few and far between; in fact PEOPLE are few and far between (altho there's gettin to be a lot of roughnecks around there, but they're sequestered away on mancamps, LOL!)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2007, 06:43:53 pm »
If you'd been to that part of Wyoming, (as I recall you've been to Idaho, which is similar) you'd know why Cassie puts up with Ennis for five effen years. Marriageable guys are few and far between; in fact PEOPLE are few and far between (altho there's gettin to be a lot of roughnecks around there, but they're sequestered away on mancamps, LOL!)

Well, when I lived in Idaho I was in the Ketchum/Sun Valley area, where there were lots of marriagable guys -- that is, if you don't mind transplanted California millionaires.  8)  (They actually looked quite a bit like that smiley!)

But I get your point.

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2007, 06:49:19 pm »
Well, when I was in Sun Valley/Ketchum last, I remember there bein a lot of cokeheads!!

 :-\

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2007, 07:23:36 pm »
Well, when I was in Sun Valley/Ketchum last, I remember there bein a lot of cokeheads!!

That was certainly the case when I was there last, but that was more than 25 years ago, so I wasn't sure it was still that way.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2007, 07:38:22 pm »
I love this thread & have a lot to say. But first: about why Cassie put up with Ennis?

Quote
She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested...

Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?

Quote
And not only does she put up with him, she fallls in love with him, chases after him when he starts to fade and is heartbroken when he dumps her!

1) As a pretty waitress, she's probably sick of men coming on to her and has heard (or overheard) every pickup line in the book. A man she must pursue is refreshing and intruiging. (As in Lureen's attraction to Jack.)

2) One thing we know about Cassie is that she's an aspiring nurse — therefore drawn to the idea of rehabilitating those who seem in need of healing, which Ennis certainly did!

3) She was probably infatuated with Ennis to a point that logic ("it's been X number of years") takes a backseat. And nothing keeps infatuation alive like mystery, which Ennis had in spades.

Quote
...and [Ennis] presumably isn't the greatest in bed.

Alma sure seemed turned on by Ennis (even 11 years into their marriage and with all their problems)! So he must have been doing something right. Turning Alma over was objectionable, certainly. But outside of that (and with mastery of straight sex being a necessary part of his overall cover — and part of his denial), maybe he wasn't so bad in the sack.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 07:44:30 pm by LauraGigs »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2007, 07:52:27 pm »
Thank you all for the awesome responses so far!  I think this is turning into a really interesting discussion!  :-*

So, what do you all think about Alma Jr.?  Nobody's weighed-in on her yet.


Alma:
Oh my, poor Alma. She was so much a product of her time and place. A victim to that specific society as much as Ennis and Jack (more than Cassie and Lureen).
Very long ago we discussed her background, her (assumed) upbringing and the fact that she was downright "trained" to be the woman and wife she was. I believe she simply had not much awareness and therefore no high expectations in regard to her own sexuality and their sex life. Women were trained to obey their husbands, in daily life as well as in the bedroom. And so she let him do what she hated.

I also agree with you about Ennis. As much as I love him - this is too much. It's truly the only thing I hold against him. The fact that he was gay is an explantaion, but in no way an excuse. The only thing that can be said to his credit is (again) their time and upbringings. He was also raised in the believe that men had every right to do what they wanted with their wifes. Even if this was never explicit stated to him (in regard to sex), it was just how the world was, it was 'natural' and a matter of fact.

Hi Penthesilea, I very much agree with your interpretation of the situation.  And, I'll just say that this whole issue really freaks me out... even the idea that people are "trained" one way or the other is creepy to me... let alone the idea that one person is expected to "obey" the other when it comes to the matter of her own body (**shudders in freaked-outness**).  But, I do think you're right that it goes a long way to explain things with regard to Ennis and Alma in bed.  Still it surprises me about Ennis and his decision to treat Alma this way.  From almost everything else we learn about Ennis, at least to me, he seems very sensitive to other people.  And, I do think he was fully aware that she didn't like this behavior (whether or not they actually discussed it in conversation) I'm sure he would have been able to sense her discomfort.  I do agree, too, with what has been said already in this thread... that he's definitely capable to blocking out or denying certain realities when it comes to his relationships with other people.  This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise.  For me it almost feels out of character for Ennis.


Quote
That's a good question. My first thought was that it would have been "too much". But on the other side, Ang Lee is a master of subtle hints. He sure would have been able to work it into the movie just as a little, unobstrusive sidenote. Maybe he really did with the interaction between Lureen and LaShawn? I'm not decided about this.


Why do you think it would be too much?  I mean, this movie (on one of it's many levels) is about confronting the topic of sexuality- focused primarily on gay male sexuality, but heterosexual female sexuality is at least addressed in different ways (through the lense of several very different characters) and the topic of bisexuality in men can also be said to be at issue within the context of the film/ story.  I think this leaves a bit of a skewed picture of female sexuality.  Granted the range of the film is sort of narrow given the relatively small number of major characters. 
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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2007, 07:59:24 pm »
Quote
And, I do think he was fully aware that [Alma] didn't like [being turned over]. This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise.  For me it almost feels out of character for Ennis.

The book makes it clear that Ennis makes Alma climax before turning her over — lending at least a bit of reciprocity and consideration to his character.

Interestingly, the film makes it clear that he doesn't. I wonder why this is.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2007, 08:07:01 pm »
I love this thread & have a lot to say. But first: about why Cassie put up with Ennis?

Quote
She's beautiful, confident, bold ... and yet she puts up with a boyfriend who is so uninterested...

Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?

Heya,
I'm just popping back in to say I think this is also a really great point.  For some reason it reminds me of Jacks behavior too.  If we substitute the word "un-committed" for the word "uninterested" in reference to his perception of Ennis's attitude towards him.  I know many people are a bit in awe of Jack's persistence in coming back year after year over all those miles to a boyfriend who won't commit.  And certainly I'm not suggesting that the relationship between Jack and Ennis was "sub-par" except with respect to the dissatisfaction on both of their parts when it came to the distance/ lack of time/ commitment, etc.

I think the film (not the story at all) tries to create some kind of comparison (if not equivalence) between some aspects of Cassie and Jack.  And, I think this is all done so that it can come to a head in the bus stop conversation (or at least it seems to cause Ennis to maybe have a big realization about the reality of his relationship to Jack during the bus stop conversation with Cassie).  I wonder if this might be why it would be important for the relationship between Ennis and Cassie to be perceived to be long (4 or 5 years).  This way, at the very least, Cassie and Jack are both depicted as long "suffering" in certain aspects of "waiting" for Ennis.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2007, 08:09:55 pm »
The book makes it clear that Ennis makes Alma climax before turning her over — lending at least a bit of reciprocity and consideration to his character.

Interestingly, the film makes it clear that he doesn't. I wonder why this is.

I still think that whether or not she has an orgasm in a different sexual position still doesn't make it OK to do something else that she pretty clearly doesn't want.  My guess is that in the film they tried to economize and depict her displeasure at this in the simplest means possible.  That's just a guess.
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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2007, 02:41:33 am »
Quote
What do you think about Alma Jr.? I feel she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.

IMO, the biggest clue about Alma Jr. is early in the film when Ennis gets Jack's first postcard.

Is she playing tag? Ball? Hide-and-seek? No....  She's playing Alma Junior, literally — cooking with a little apron, stove and pots — right beside Mom.

Sure, in her teen years she complains of strictness and wants to move in with Daddy, but by 19 the 'cycle' is complete: she's ready to settle down young, like her predecessors. (This isn't to say that she's unenlightened; we could devote a whole other thread to how much she knew about Ennis, for example. But her parents' divorce evidently didn't shake her faith in traditional relationships. Or she could be repeating her parents' pattern in an unconscious attempt to 'repair' that history.)

Quote
Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love...

He doesn't have to ask how she feels; he knows. Ennis and she are so on the same wavelength. You can tell by the way they communicate in the truck after the Cassie date: relatively little is said but they read each other so well. (Her in-love glow at the end is fairly obvious to the viewing audience, so it's a given for Ennis!)

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...only whether Kurt loves her. What's up with that?

It has been observed (& I agree) that Ennis wants to make sure she's not going too far down Alma Sr's path . . . in marrying a man who doesn't really love her. He doesn't want to see her hurt the way he hurt her mom.

Speaking of whom:

Quote
And, I do think he was fully aware that [Alma] didn't like [being turned over]. This one particular issue is so unsettling and honestly pretty cruel, that it seems well "below" what we know of Ennis otherwise. It almost feels out of character for Ennis.

How does he manage this, when he should know better?  Compartmentalization — this thing grabbing hold of him — the same mechanism that enables him to sleep with Jack and still believe himself straight.  (Or at least straighter than "Boys Like You" . . .)


So much to talk about here!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 05:34:01 pm by LauraGigs »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2007, 10:06:19 am »
Catching up with this great discussion ...

Doesn't that happen pretty often though? That a great person will put up with a sub-par relationship?

Oh, maybe. I wouldn't know anything about that!  ::)

Quote
2) One thing we know about Cassie is that she's an aspiring nurse — therefore drawn to the idea of rehabilitating those who seem in need of healing, which Ennis certainly did!

3) She was probably infatuated with Ennis to a point that logic ("it's been X number of years") takes a backseat. And nothing keeps infatuation alive like mystery, which Ennis had in spades.

Good points!

Quote
Alma sure seemed turned on by Ennis (even 11 years into their marriage and with all their problems)! So he must have been doing something right.

You think? My impression on the "if you don't want no more of my kids" night is that when they turn their separate ways, she's not all that disappointed.

Why do you think it would be too much?  I mean, this movie (on one of it's many levels) is about confronting the topic of sexuality- focused primarily on gay male sexuality, but heterosexual female sexuality is at least addressed in different ways (through the lense of several very different characters) and the topic of bisexuality in men can also be said to be at issue within the context of the film/ story.  I think this leaves a bit of a skewed picture of female sexuality.  Granted the range of the film is sort of narrow given the relatively small number of major characters.

I'm in the "it would be too much" camp, partly for the reason you mention in your last sentence. Do we ever even see two women in the same scene together, aside from Alma and her daughters or Lureen and her mom? Oh yeah, Cassie and Alma Jr. But otherwise, there's no evidence that any of these women have ever even met any other women.

I guess it might have been possible for Ang to have suggested something in a very subtle way -- for example, showed two women extras in the background together, the way we keep seeing pairs of men. But I think the goal of the movie was less to explore the range of human sexuality than to keep the focus very much on Jack's and Ennis' relationship, to look at how their sexuality and feelings for each other, and the restrictions put upon them, affected those particular men and everyone else in their lives.

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It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?

IMO, this isn't because he doesn't care how Alma Jr. feels toward Kurt. It's more about what Ennis has recently realized regarding his relationship with Jack. Ennis always knew he loved Jack, IMO. But that wasn't enough to spur him to action. But when he finds the shirts (and contemplates Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun") he realizes how much Jack loved him, that's when he fully understands how much he blew it. What he learned was, if someone (whom you love) loves you, don't waste that opportunity. He's assuming that Alma Jr. loves Kurt (as he loved Jack), and is saying, "If he loves you, that's what matters; you definitely should marry him."

I think this whole scene, which the first couple of times I saw the movie felt a little tacked on, is a really wonderful way of showing how the experience has affected Ennis and what he has learned from it. And it lets the movie end on a slightly more hopeful note than the story did. Alma Jr.'s role is to show the "what if": What if, when Ennis was 19, he had felt he could do what he wanted, and be with the person he loved.



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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2007, 10:17:38 am »
I'm in the "it would be too much" camp, partly for the reason you mention in your last sentence. Do we ever even see two women in the same scene together, aside from Alma and her daughters or Lureen and her mom? Oh yeah, Cassie and Alma Jr. But otherwise, there's no evidence that any of these women have ever even met any other women.
I assume you're talking about the movie, since you say "scene." So, there's the two scenes with Lureen and LaShawn, which are very important scenes in my opinion. These were created by McMurtry and Ossana, I theorize, to flesh out the Texas Jack part of the story and setup his death and the final pronouncements of Lureen to Ennis. I think it was in the dialogue between Lureen and LaShawn that Lureen began to know that Jack was gay, when she found out the similarities between Jack and Randall.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 10:58:28 am »
I assume you're talking about the movie, since you say "scene."

Yes.

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So, there's the two scenes with Lureen and LaShawn, which are very important scenes in my opinion.

Oh, yeah! Duh! I knew I would forget something.

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These were created by McMurtry and Ossana, I theorize, to flesh out the Texas Jack part of the story and setup his death and the final pronouncements of Lureen to Ennis. I think it was in the dialogue between Lureen and LaShawn that Lureen began to know that Jack was gay, when she found out the similarities between Jack and Randall.

Good point. I think Lureen already knew something was amiss, but perhaps didn't have an explanation for it. She probably progresses a little closer to understanding during that evening.

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2007, 11:03:30 am »
I remember that scene because I still for the life of me can't figure it out!!
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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2007, 11:58:32 am »
Fascinating topic indeed.  I know we find it reprehensible that Alma submitted to anal sex but part of it was due to the era & culture of the location - even in otherwise loving relationships there was still the view that women yielded to men in the bedroom, whether that particular act or any sex act.  I would even go so far as to say that Alma was lucky to have Ennis attend to her needs first at all.  I'm not sure where he would have learnt about that - presumably from Alma herself in the early days of their relationship.  This is surprising to me, as was Lureen's confident sexuality given my preconceptions of the era & culture. 

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 12:19:44 pm »
This was during the early days of the birth control pill. Women were enjoying new freedom and assertiveness, and momentum was building for the feminist movement. I believe that the movie Peyton Place came out at this time. The character of Lureen was definitely accurate for this time period. In later years, there was a backlash against the feminists and a wave of puritanism has swept through the U.S. Things have definitely changed a lot and it's difficult for a young woman of today to imagine that era.

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2007, 07:36:13 pm »
I didn't think the pill had really reached the more traditional American states at that time even though it was out, especially smalltown places in Wyoming.  It is implied Alma & Ennis used condoms/anal sex for birth control & with Lureen it seems she got pregnant such that Jack had to marry her.  Hence I still expected both of them to have the more traditional hidden/repressed female sexuality - or are you saying that Alma & Lureen would have more open sexuality because they would be aware of what was happening in that arena even though they wouldn't have easy access to the pill themselves?
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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2007, 02:30:41 am »
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Lureen might have been an only child, too...
Well Goadra, I think that's pertinent because it helps account for her confidence (and relative audacity some would say ::) ::) ::)).

There's a still from the "Blue Parka" scene that is striking to me. Although it's not framed the same in the film, she sits beneath a portrait of her father and they're very similarly dressed. http://www.bioscop.cz/_web/_filmy/b_zkrocena_hora/fotografie/nahledy_nejvetsi/115_zkrocena_hora.jpg
It is written that Elizabeth I did the same (positioning portraits of Henry VIII above her seat) to reinforce her lineage since the idea of her regency was so controversial.

Anyway, she + Jack are very similar in that they're high-spirited only children who aren't afraid to go after their dreams — no matter who may object.

[I've posted the following before; forgive me if you've seen this]

Some bemoan their "cold" marriage, but IMO they have it all wrong. She + Jack had symbiosis: he let her be who she wanted to be — and to an extent, vice versa. She didn't care about his lack of prospects, and gave him the means to earn a good living in his own right (thus he was able to tell LD, "this is my house". He wasn't interested, however, in taking over the business that was her birthright, as some men may have been.) Also, she doesn't expect him to live up to some masculine ideal and be anything that he's not. Many women of the time expected their husbands to "be a man" and might even have taken subtle swipes at his manhood if he weren't. (Madonna, asked about Sean Penn's jealous + controlling nature said, "at least he had the balls".) This isn't an issue to Lureen.

What is an issue of course, is Jack's baffling lack of attention. I agree that by the dance scene she may be in the process of putting pieces together, but is still basically in the dark (thus asking "Why . . . Jack?)

People tend to be hard on Lureen for some reason, as if not being primarily a homemaker means she had less of a heart. But she just wanted to be noticed and loved, like anybody else.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2007, 02:40:23 am by LauraGigs »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2007, 12:01:09 pm »
What is an issue of course, is Jack's baffling lack of attention. I agree that by the dance scene she may be in the process of putting pieces together, but is still basically in the dark (thus asking "Why . . . Jack?)

Though I always hear that line ("Why do you think that is, Jack?") as sort of a tease or taunt. That's why he feigns indifference and brushes it off like stray cigarette ashes.

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People tend to be hard on Lureen for some reason, as if not being primarily a homemaker means she had less of a heart. But she just wanted to be noticed and loved, like anybody else.

Frankly, I always find it a little sexist when people accuse Lureen of not being a good wife and mother because she is so involved in the business. If the genders were reversed, I doubt anyone would say that. I think part of the reason Lureen throws herself into her work is because she's frustrated in her marriage. But I certainly don't blame -- as some people do -- any of their marital woes on her work habits. If Lureen were to quit her job, stay home to cook and clean and sew curtains, and greeted Jack every night wearing nothing but Saran wrap and holding a pitcher of martinis, they would still have marital problems.



Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2007, 02:39:07 pm »
Heya,

Wow, some great points have been raised recently.  It's really interesting to note that Jack and Lureen are both only children (or at least as far as we know regarding Lureen... and based on the family gathering at Thanksgiving).  It's also interesting that Bobby is an only child.  It sort of re-inforces that dynamic in the Twist-Newsome family I think.  (by the way, I'm an only child  :D... for what it's worth).

Anyway, I really like Lureen and it's probably pretty clear from lots of my posts over time that I think that the marriage between Jack and Lureen was primarily based on a probably quite genuine friendship between them.  I like the term symbiosis, it seems pretty accurate.  Both Jack and Lureen were existing beyond the conventional gender norms for their times and their environment.  And, it is true that the marriage seemed to truly be one of "convenience" for both of them. 

It's interesting that other than Jack's suggestion in the motel with Ennis during the reunion, there's no real hint that Jack and Lureen contemplate divorce through the rest of the film.  I think that's quite a big clue to something.

Also, Lureen's relative kindness to Ennis on the phone (despite the traumatic circumstances and the major revelation she's having about the situation) is one of the things that makes me really love Lureen.
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Offline nic

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2007, 02:41:58 pm »
I really like Lureen too.  However, as with Alma, I can't help a streak of negativity towards the wives relating to divorce.  If Alma had divorced Ennis earlier, could it have made a difference in his acceptance of Jack? And likewise with Lureen - even though her & Jack were good friends it was not really an ideal marriage so maybe if she'd suggested a divorce it could have spurred Jack to try harder with Ennis?  The endless "what ifs"!

...It's interesting that other than Jack's suggestion in the motel with Ennis during the reunion, there's no real hint that Jack and Lureen contemplate divorce through the rest of the film.  I think that's quite a big clue to something....

A clue to Lureen covering for Jack?  Do tell!

The only child thing (me too btw) - I think that was definitely because Lureen & Jack's physical relationship died away after the early years, & of course once a male heir was produced there would be less familial pressure to reproduce.   I do find it odd that Lureen didn't express more dis-satisfaction with the relationship, because she was clearly still young when the physical aspect to the relationship dropped off & very attractive, & she kept an interest in her looks implying she would still be interested in sex etc.  Maybe she had affairs & the continuing marriage helped her cover?



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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2007, 02:57:10 pm »
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If Alma had divorced Ennis earlier, could it have made a difference in his acceptance of Jack? And likewise with Lureen - even though her & Jack were good friends it was not really an ideal marriage so maybe if she'd suggested a divorce it could have spurred Jack to try harder with Ennis?

I don't think the responsibility would be on the wives to set the men free to chase a dream their wives had no clue about, would it?

The film makes it pretty clear that Ennis was so scarred from his upbringing that no extenuating circumstances in his adulthood would bring him around. After his divorce, he still preferred not to even be seen with Jack.

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I do find it odd that Lureen didn't express more dis-satisfaction with the relationship

She does it plenty in the dance scene. Remember, this is Ang Lee: he's all about economy and subtlety.

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Maybe she had affairs & the continuing marriage helped her cover?

She would appear much more blase' if that were the case. IMO the dance scene makes it clear that she's still interested in Jack and mystified in his disinterest.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2007, 03:20:47 pm »
A clue to Lureen covering for Jack?  Do tell!

Heya, well, I probably wouldn't go that far.  Or at least it doesn't seem like she probably understands the whole situation until the Ennis phone call.  So, she probably wasn't consciously covering for Jack.  I don't know what I mean to imply by noting that neither Jack nor Lureen seem to seriously contemplate divorce.  I think all I can say, is that on some level their marriage seems to work for both of them (even if it's simultaneously very frustrating on some other levels).
 :-\
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2007, 03:23:41 pm »

The film makes it pretty clear that Ennis was so scarred from his upbringing that no extenuating circumstances in his adulthood would bring him around. After his divorce, he still preferred not to even be seen with Jack.


Yup, I think this is Ennis's situation in a nutshell.  And, it seems to be the basis of how heartbreaking Jack's surprise post-divorce visit becomes.  He realizes that Ennis can't even handle being seen with him by some random person driving by in the white truck.  He finally gets that it wasn't Ennis's marriage really holding Ennis back.
 :'(
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Offline nic

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2007, 06:31:41 pm »
I don't think the responsibility would be on the wives to set the men free to chase a dream their wives had no clue about, would it?

No, certainly not, but I yearn for a happy ending so search out any possible route into a parallel universe!  Yet Alma did have more than clue about Ennis & Jack's relationship. 

By today's standards it would be considered odd for a young wife to stand by her husband for so long after finding out he was gay, & effectively was never in love with her.  It must have been very difficult for her to keep having sex with him.  Do you think she ever would have attempted to "cure" him from being gay/seeing Jack, eg by submitting to anal sex she is showing Ennis that he can "have the best of both worlds"? 

It is a mystery to me why she took so long to get round to a divorce even given the trappings of the era.  I have wondered if maybe she set up the relationship with Munroe first before she sought divorce, so that she wouldn't have to be a lone parent, as that would have been very hard at that time in that location. 



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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2007, 06:41:51 pm »
Yeah, I think the question of why Alma waits so long is very valid.  She seems to simmer under a lot of resentment over the continual appearance of postcards and Ennis's enthusiasm for the fishing trips.  Did she think things would somehow get better?  There are a lot of odd timing issues in BBM and this is just one of them.  The other major timeline puzzle is the length of time that Ennis dates Cassie (and correspondingly the length of time that Jack might be dating Randall).
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Offline LauraGigs

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Guys! Come here! (This isn't the Proctor & Gamble thread LOL....)
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2007, 08:05:17 pm »
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By today's standards it would be considered odd for a young wife to stand by her husband for so long after finding out he was gay . . .

But this was rural Wyoming in the 60s.  What did people say about homosexuality then?  If anything?  What would someone like Alma know about it?  "Finding out he was gay" is oversimplifiying Alma's experience.  A lot of people believe she had very little full understanding of what she saw until much later.
 
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Do you think she ever would have attempted to "cure" him from being gay/seeing Jack, eg by submitting to anal sex she is showing Ennis that he can "have the best of both worlds"?

With all the ignorance surrounding homosexuality, that's a good possibility Nic. Have you ever seen Far From Heaven?  If not, rent it! It's really pertinent and a fine film too.

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It is a mystery to me why she took so long to get round to a divorce even given the trappings of the era . . .

Remember, there was a lot of ignorance surrounding divorce at the time too. Divorcees were much rarer than they are today — and were considered anything from radicals, to damaged goods in most circles (especially if you're a woman).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2007, 12:04:52 am by LauraGigs »

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2007, 10:15:57 pm »
another aspect to remember is the religious one. Even today in 2007 my sister is considered a sinner and damaged goods in her church for getting a divorce...and the reason is immaterial. She was telling me her husband and his best friend were discussing this last week...about how women that are divorced go to hell.

Offline nic

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2007, 07:01:21 am »
I believe Alma would want to resist divorce for a number of reasons, as mentioned above & also including the simple fact she loved Ennis, but I also think of the taboo surrounding homosexuality in those times,  that gay men could be seen as monsters & perverts.  If someone was to find out she was "harbouring" a homosexual, they would turn on her.  Plus if she was quite ignorant about homosexuality, she might have thoughts of him as a monster & potentially some kind of threat to the children.  These factors point me to thinking an earlier divorce would have been on the cards.

Or it could have worked conversely, in that she wouldn't have had a valid enough reason for divorce, as she wouldn't want to openly cite a homosexual partner as the reason for divorce.  Thus she had to build up a case of Ennis neglecting his husbandly duties etc over some years.  This is quite plausible, as it also gives her time to try to master her own feelings about Ennis. 

....With all the ignorance surrounding homosexuality, that's a good possibility Nic. Have you ever seen Far From Heaven?  If not, rent it! It's really pertinent and a fine film too...

I have seen it, & remember it had some fine performances but not much else.  I'll try to check it out again. Alma didn't appear to buck up her game in any other arena. I thought she might try to keep their house more in order, make herself less dowdy-looking etc in an attempt to persuade Ennis to stick fully to a conventional lifestyle.  Maybe she didn't because she was flat out as it was.  I was pleased she took the job at the store, as it was something she could do off her own back,  even if the prime reason was needing the income.  I found Ennis lumbering her with the kids at work in the film very hard to take at first veiwing!  >:(

She must have felt her own sexuality was brought into question, in the sense of why wasn't her feminine sexuality enough for Ennis? Monroe is obviously second choice, & convenient.  Again, looking with today's eyes, she would be expected to effectively take her pick of a second partner.  I see her becoming pregnant with Monroe's child as her completely having no choice but to follow the societal convention at the time.  She seems quite plucky so I could have seen her as taking a more pro-active role in managing the store with Monroe, but no - she is relegated to the kitchen sink & I imagine becoming a stay-at-home mum for many more years.  This may have been ok with her of course, but I interpret the fact she stood up for herself getting the job & then the divorce as indicators she became more independent & naturally would have liked to continue in that vein if it had been possible at the time.  Especially as she had settled for Monroe - she would want something to "balance out" her compromise of accepting second best.   

I seem to have a lot to say on this, whether completely OT or not.  Apologies for rambling along  ::)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2007, 09:56:50 am »
I was pleased she took the job at the store, as it was something she could do off her own back,  even if the prime reason was needing the income.  I found Ennis lumbering her with the kids at work in the film very hard to take at first veiwing!  >:(

... I see her becoming pregnant with Monroe's child as her completely having no choice but to follow the societal convention at the time.  She seems quite plucky so I could have seen her as taking a more pro-active role in managing the store with Monroe, but no - she is relegated to the kitchen sink & I imagine becoming a stay-at-home mum for many more years.  This may have been ok with her of course, but I interpret the fact she stood up for herself getting the job & then the divorce as indicators she became more independent & naturally would have liked to continue in that vein if it had been possible at the time.  Especially as she had settled for Monroe - she would want something to "balance out" her compromise of accepting second best.   

I see Alma's job at the store as more about boosting their income than Alma's independence. We see Alma cajoling Ennis to move to town and get the apartment over the laundromat, Ennis says it's too expensive, and next thing we know they're living over the laundromat and Alma's working in the store. I'm guessing that's the compromise they made.

Someone once said that the look Ennis gives her when he drops off the kids could be a reminder that she was the one who wanted to live in town in the first place, and that if he loses his job they'll be in trouble. And that's why Alma, acknowledging that, immediately backs down.

I would guess Alma probably does become a stay-at-home mom after having the baby with Monroe. But back in those pre-"Feminine Mystique" days (which probably lasted in Wyoming until long after "The Feminine Mystique" was published, in 1963), a lot of wives/mothers did not consciously long to work outside of the house. In fact, it could even be considered faintly shameful for both spouses: an indication that the husband wasn't capable of supporting the family himself. And of course, Monroe was capable, so Alma didn't "have to work." After all, a lot of mothers today think the same way -- they opt to stay home with their children, even feminists with degrees and careers and good incomes and access to excellent child care.

I also think it's even possible that Alma, who seems very interested in having a nice home and decent income, doesn't consider the prosperous Monroe second best.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2007, 11:04:15 am »
Maybe she resisted the urge to get divorced until she was certain that Monroe would be a sure bet.

Before the divorce how much do we think was going on between Alma and Monroe?  What's the significance of her stomping off to take a late shift at the store during the "swing set/ kick the bucket" scene?  Is the opportunity to maybe see Monroe part of her motivation for working late by this point (besides making extra money)?
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Offline nic

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2007, 06:45:26 am »
Maybe Alma doesn't see Monroe quite as second best, but he's not Ennis & Ennis was Alma's sweetheart.  I think she really loved Ennis, or rather the person she thought Ennis was, & she is effectively forced to stifle & suppress her feelings for him, they do not just go away over night, hence the angry thanksgiving outburst.  That happened out of her personal hurt & also showed jealousy - if she was completely happy with Monroe & the lifestyle I don't think that episode would have had quite the power behind it.  Perhaps after a little more time elaspes, her feelings will have been drained of any remaining energy & then she can settle emotionally into "her lot" & be content with it. 

Alma does have a little bit of scheming side, shown by the notes on the fishing gear, so I'd definitely say she was working towards a relationship with Monroe at the time she goes off for the late shift.  I hadn't read the story before so didn't know Alma ended up with Monroe.  I really liked how it was handled in the film, ie it appeared neutral such that later on the viewer mulls it over trying to see if hints of the end result are there. (similarly the opening scene, potato peeling, etc & in some of these scenes the hints are indeed there to the trained observer/mad fanatic!). 

......After all, a lot of mothers today think the same way -- they opt to stay home with their children, even feminists with degrees and careers and good incomes and access to excellent child care. ...

Yes - me included. I am giving up work this year to become an earth mother if things go well & I have degrees, 10 years of a professional career & would say I am a feminist, even so far as going through a lesbian separatist at one stage!  I am quite resentful to give it up even though I've made an informed decision etc etc, so as it's a delicate issue for me I'm bound to be putting my own spin on it.

It's just occurred to me that it's quite surprising Monroe did not already have a wife.  Is this because he was in a relatively urban environment & as such attitudes were not as old-fashioned & there wasn't a pressure to get married young?  Also, do you think Alma would have had any fears about whether she was getting involved with another man who would let her down? 
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2007, 09:40:35 am »
I love the description of Monroe's environment as "relatively urban"!
 :laugh:

That's great.  But, seriously, I think that we're supposed to get hints that Alma and Monroe are interested in each other during the "grocery store/ spilled peanut jars" scene.  I always thought that the look he and Alma exchange over the broken jars is meant to feel significant.  And, his kindness to her here combinded with this look make it feel less out-of-the-blue when we later learn they've gotten married.  So, that grocery scene is really early and even before she knows about Jack.  Interesting.

It's a good question as to why Monroe wasn't married before.  I don't feel like I know enough about him to make a really good guess. 
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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2007, 09:44:13 am »
I agree with what you say, Amanda. When Alma has an interchange with Monroe right after the interchange with Ennis, she and we are meant to see the contrast between the brutish Ennis and the sympathetic Monroe. I don't think Monroe was considered to be much of a catch in Wyo. even though he was a successful merchant.

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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2007, 12:59:17 pm »
Monroe's fondness for Alma is palpable in the grocery store scene, but I don't think the preoccupied Alma has caught on to that yet. Her look of horror when the jars tumble and regret when Monroe surveys them indicates that he is like any boss to her at that point.

The character of Monroe is played to be pretty transparent and straightforward — a stand-up (if comparatively boring) guy. And you can tell from his 'delayed' reaction to the fight at Thanksgiving that he's a little bit afraid of Ennis. So if he & Alma had had anything going on by the grocery store scene, it would have shown in the way Monroe greets Ennis: either a little guilty or a bit afraid.

Quote
[A wife/mother working outside the home] could even be considered faintly shameful . . .  an indication that the husband wasn't capable of supporting the family himself.

I think this is part of what vexes Ennis, especially in the 'bucket kick' scene.  Again, I don't think Alma has anything going on with Monroe here — she's certainly not 'gussied up' in any way, nor particularly giddy about going to work.  This is shown right after a J + E fishing trip, indicating to me that her resentment of this (channeled into passive-aggressive behavior relating to finances) is fraying the marriage.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 06:35:10 pm by LauraGigs »

Offline nic

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2007, 07:13:08 am »
....I always thought that the look he and Alma exchange over the broken jars is meant to feel significant.  ...

My interpretation is that it shows us Monroe is interested here & although Alma isn't interested yet, as time goes by she is bound to respond to kindness shown to her in this manner & at some point the idea that he's a potential partner kicks in.  It's true we don't know much about Monroe but maybe he didn't get involved with anyone else for all that time as he was sweet on Alma. 

FR - why wouldn't Monroe be considered as a catch? I'd have thought mothers for miles around would be cueing him up at the church socials for their daughters  ;D

I think this is part of what vexes Ennis, especially in the 'bucket kick' scene. Again, I don't think Alma has anything going on with Monroe here — she's certainly not 'gussied up' in any way, nor particularly giddy about going to work. This is shown right after a J + E fishing trip, indicating to me that her resentment of this (channeled into passive-aggressive behavior relating to finances) is fraying the marriage.

"Gussied up" is new one for me & I can't help but relate it to the word gusset  :-\   ???  Possibly Alma hadn't gotten the idea of her & Monroe in her head at this time, but she would definitely be viewing the job as a bit of a relief to get away from the domestic environment, & Ennis. 

Good point about what is annoying Ennis - he is so paranoid about anything that can detract from him being seen as the husbandly archetype.  What do you think is his level of understanding about female sexuality? ( if any  ;D )
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2007, 08:55:06 am »
This is slightly OT, but it's interesting that in two scenes of marital conflict -- the bucket-kick scene and the "husbands never wanna dance with their wives" scene, ashes get spilled.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2007, 09:43:51 am »
I think the topic of ashes is really interesting.  Wasn't there an idea floating around for a while that Lureen's color shift from red gradually to black and white is equivalent to a fire turning to embers and then to ash?

Also, I think the camera's focus on the dwindling fire embers in the flashback is very interesting.  Especially since the flashback comes at the end of the big argument between Jack and Ennis (essentially, finally, they're having it out... their moment of 'domestic' conflict has finally erupted).  Obviously that dying fire in the flashback was from the beginning of their relationship and from a "good moment" in their relationship.  But, I feel like that fire has important significance for the "real time" of the last argument between them too.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2007, 01:22:22 pm »
Maybe the ashes in each of those wife scenes signal that the marriage has died out. Though neither may have been ideal even before that, there was some affection in each. But at the point the ashes are scattered (!!) it's over -- Ennis and Alma are bickering harshly, Jack and Lureen have grown distant and frustrated.

It occurs to me that one way to look at the fact that Ennis didn't get Jack's ashes to scatter means that the feelings in that relationship can't "die out."

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2007, 01:53:39 pm »
OMG latjoreme — great observation.

Quote
in two scenes of marital conflict . . .  ashes get spilled.

And the 'final conflict' of the film is over ashes, and where they will get spilled.

But Ennis comes away from it with something more powerful: a living symbol of how strong Jack's love for him was. His relationship with Jack had never 'burned out' the way each of their marriages had.


Damn. Every little detail proves to be significant . . .

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2007, 07:33:10 pm »
Amazing.  Somehow I'd never thought to connect the ash buckets, the fire embers, the possible relationship to Lureen's image (going from fire red to black and white ash colors) to the fact that Jack's actual body becomes ashes.

You're right that this final issue that Ennis has to confront dealing with Jack in any possible physical sense has to go with gaining access to ashes.
 :-\ :'(
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2008, 01:16:46 pm »
Since Lureen and the topic of women in BBM is hot once again these days, I thought I'd revive this old thread.

:)


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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #49 on: January 17, 2008, 07:57:26 pm »
Love it... Atz!!

See my thread: If Lureen is lesbian too... please.

Hugs!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2008, 10:39:41 pm »
Love it... Atz!!

See my thread: If Lureen is lesbian too... please.

Hugs!!

I'll say, again, that I don't think that Lureen is meant to be portrayed as a lesbian.  I don't think any of the female characters in BBM are overtly meant to represent a lesbian character or a lesbian point of view. 

I don't think we're given enough evidence either visually or within the script, etc. to suggest that Lureen (or any of them) are either lesbian or bisexual.

The interesting point in BBM - the film at least - is that each one of the major female characters is very different from the others.  Cassie is very different from Lureen.  Lureen is very different from Alma.  Junior even confronts Cassie... emphasizing Junior's own individuality in contrast to other female figures. 

They're all complex in their individuality even without the inclusion of a really major difference such as a lesbian identity among any of them.  The female characters represent something of the diversity that can exist among women within the one category of straight women.  And, of course, the women in the film are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of diversity among women.  That's what's so interesting about how the film of BBM incorporates the women characters.  The film makes them far more "real" or "fleshed-out" characters compared to the story, which usually glosses over the women very quickly.


« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 01:01:14 am by atz75 »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2008, 12:57:50 am »
The film makes them far more "real" or "fleshed-out" characters compared to the story, which usually glosses over the women very quickly.

Which IMO improves the story. It's not just a way to fill time; it genuinely expands the meaning and deepens the tragedy.


Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2008, 05:09:33 pm »
Lureen as a lesbian is a bit over the top  :o :laugh:
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2008, 12:10:28 am »
Thanks brokenbackjack!

Oh, another man, beside I, wow!!

May I quote you brokebackjack:
Quote
Lureen as a lesbian is a bit over the top
.
...

And may I say to you and to all, you are in a way proving that Lureen is lesbian, since she is top!! That is the way I discover now Lureen... as a detective could on second viewings. Not only by looking at her, but what she does, and certainly how!! Take another angle, when you see her, all of you... see that possibility!

Hugs!!


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2008, 01:03:26 am »
Artiste, can I suggest that Lureen's excitement at meeting Jack in the beginning of their relationship is strong evidence that she really is straight.  She's excited about him from the moment that Jack retrieves her hat at the barrel racing event.  She's interested enough in him to approach him at the bar when she senses his reluctance.  She really, really wants to dance with him.  And, probably most importantly, she's very excited and eager for the sexual contact in the car.

These are not behaviors typical of lesbians.  Most lesbians don't show this much interest in men and certainly wouldn't go out of their way to establish a sexual relationship with a man as quickly and as enthusiastically as Lureen demonstrates in BBM.  In fact, many lesbians would go out of their way to avoid the behaviors that Lureen demonstrates.

I think the point about Lureen, is that she's a very confident, sexually-self-aware straight woman.  Her boldness and confidence in going after what she wants are to be applauded (at least from my perspective... I am a lesbian... and I applaud Lureen for her confidence in her own sexuality, which from the scenes we're shown in the film seems strongly heterosexual).  Her self-confidence and assertiveness, I'm thinking is meant to be seen as rather extraordinary and very progressive for a straight woman in Texas during her era.  She's a progressive character in that regard... but not a lesbian.  She's so self-assured in her youth (as we see) that if she was a lesbian... she would not be pursuing Jack.  She would be using her self-confidence and self-awareness to pursue entirely different people (i.e. women).



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Offline Katness

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2008, 06:07:05 am »
I'm going to open up a *really* broad topic here.  But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately.  I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it.  She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc.  This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality. 

So, I just wonder how people feel the movie treats the subject of female sexuality (again I know this is a big topic) when it comes to the main female characters in the film.  Lureen, Alma, Cassie, and Alma Jr. in the last scene.

I'll start with some "starter" questions/ obervations (beginning with my Lureen observation above).

Alma:
I think one of the more disturbing aspects of the story and film with regard to this topic is Ennis's persistence in having sex with Alma in "positions" that she does not like.  As much as I love Ennis, this is a really upsetting thing for me to deal with/ think about.  As much as I sympathize with his dilemma and his own pain, I think the way he treats Alma in bed is one of the worst aspects of his character.  And I don't recall this topic being hashed out in great depth too often.  So, I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about this.

Cassie:
Maybe somewhat similar to the situation with Lureen, we get a sense that Cassie is sexually confident and bold.  She's not afraid to make first moves or ask guys to dance (as we see Lureen will do too).  But, it seems that the movie treats Lureen and Cassie differently when it comes to this topic, but it's hard for me to pinpoint how.  And, maybe both Cassie and Lureen are meant to illustrate different reactions to frustration.

Alma Jr.:
I always feel so sad at the end of the movie that Alma Jr. is getting married so young to a "roughneck".  I know I'm supposed to feel happy that she's in love, etc.  But, honestly, I feel sorry for her. I feel like she's shown to be trapped in a bit of a cycle of little opportunity and a narrow social sphere.  It's also interesting that Ennis doesn't ask Alma Jr. if she's in love... only whether Kurt loves her.  What's up with that?



And, this is a sort of selfish question about this topic for me... in a movie that's so much about exploring the nuances of the love between two men and gay male sexuality and the societal pressures put on those relationships (not just Jack and Ennis's but also Earl and Rich and even Randall in his situation), why is there seemingly no hint about gay female sexuality?

In my mind, when I put Alma, Alma. Jr, Cassie and Laureen together. I think Alma loves Ennis to the point that she will do anything for him so long as he is her's. I believe Alma is in denial about Ennis being in love with Jack. And she her self still loves him. So even though she doesn't like the sex that Ennis likes she will still consent to it because she wants to feel like he will be her's even if it is just an illusion. Alma consenting to something she doesn't like though or rather the way Ennis treats her in bed disturbs me too. Don't get me wrong though, I don't mind that particular form of sex, just so long as both parties enjoy it to the fullest.

Alma Jr, did get married quite young. (she was 20 right?) but I think Ennis only asked her if Curt loved her because he, having realized just in how much pain Alma Sr was in their relationship, didn't want Curt treating Ennis' daughter the same way. But I believe he trusted that his own Daughter knew what she was doing.

Cassie and Laureen to me are both similar in that they are more dominant, action type girls then Ennis was. Jack (like I said before) to me was more of an action guy which is probably what attracted him even remotely to Laureen and vice versa in the first place. Then you have the opposites attract (in some cases) like Ennis and Cassie. Ennis was the more quiet, subdued one, like I was hence my identifying as an Ennis when I was younger. Where as Cassie is the more talkative take charge one.

My feeling that there being no hint of female homosexuality or little hint of female bisexuality is because in the 60's it was probably more common for someone even a woman to hide their same sex attractions. And with women already being able to admire another woman in those days and do things non sexual that would make two men look gay, it was probably harder to spot the lesbians in society unless they themselves specified.

Thats just my interpretation. I'm going to read more of this thread.

Sincerely, Kat.
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2008, 12:06:06 am »
ARTISTE, I STILL THINK THE OLD BAT DOWN IN CHILDRESS WAS STRAIGHT!
How are you?

been a while...
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2008, 08:58:18 am »
Where you been? You must have got those notes we left at your place!

 ;D

Good to see you back, Jack!  :D

Katherine





Offline Artiste

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2008, 10:39:01 am »
Atz you say:
          But, the scene with Jack and Lureen in the back of the car has been on my mind a lot and it seems to come up for me in a number of different threads lately.  I think it's a particularly intriguing scene because it seems to be mostly about her desire and sexuality while Jack is sort of swept along by it.  She initiates a lot of the contact, she undresses herself, she's on top, etc.  This seems to be an extraordinary moment in the context of BBM because the movie is so much about the men's sexuality. 

           

.........

Atz, may I dare ask if this could be a method that a lesbian would take ?
This just comes to my mind... among methods that lesbians maybe do, some prefer ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2008, 11:58:18 am »
I agree with what you say, Amanda. When Alma has an interchange with Monroe right after the interchange with Ennis, she and we are meant to see the contrast between the brutish Ennis and the sympathetic Monroe. I don't think Monroe was considered to be much of a catch in Wyo. even though he was a successful merchant.

FR - why wouldn't Monroe be considered as a catch? I'd have thought mothers for miles around would be cueing him up at the church socials for their daughters  ;D

Monroe was really the kind of guy who would be many a woman's dream of a second husband.  Or the guy who usually gets to go to the prom in high school but the girl he goes with said yes after the boy she really wanted to ask her asked someone else.

The impression I had from the grocery scene was that he and Alma had known each other since high school.  IMO it's a reasonable assumption that Alma is from Riverton originally since she has a sister in the area.

(I know I'm answering some really old posts; but happened to notice this thread had been revived -- it covers scenes that don't get much discussion in comparison to others.)

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2008, 12:04:13 pm »
The character of Monroe is played to be pretty transparent and straightforward — a stand-up (if comparatively boring) guy. And you can tell from his 'delayed' reaction to the fight at Thanksgiving that he's a little bit afraid of Ennis. So if he & Alma had had anything going on by the grocery store scene, it would have shown in the way Monroe greets Ennis: either a little guilty or a bit afraid.

Quite on target IMO, and I'd add --

He's in one hell of an awkward situation in the Thanksgiving scene. The dates given indicate that he and Alma haven't been married very long -- maybe 18 months? and she's clearly still carrying a lot of baggage about her first marriage. Not an easy situation for a second spouse; but you also have two stepdaughters who aren't anywhere near young enough to grow up thinking of their stepfather as Daddy.  And the girls' and Alma's reactions at the dinner table suggest that Ennis has been invited mainly to please the kids. 

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Female Sexuality in BBM
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2008, 10:48:02 pm »
And I got those notes you left with FrontRanger, too.

Took me a while but I'm back. There were a lot of things going on and going down.
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