Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??

[Artiste]

Just answered a reply to another of my threads or questions, I think now that maybe:
Ennis and Jake are homosexuals, bi-sexuals or??


Has this been thought about?? Bisexual or gay, were they??

Awaiting replies... gladly!!

Hugs to all!

[serious crayons]

Hi Artiste,

There is a already a thread on this very topic called "How would you describe Jack's and Ennis' sexuality?" http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,8649.0.html Rather than start another thread, you might want to get involved in that conversation instead. That way, you can see what others have written so far, and add thoughts of your own. If we get too many different threads going on similar topics, it gets confusing for people and everybody winds up missing out on some interesting ideas.

Thanks!

latjoreme/Katherine

[Artiste]

Even so with another thread, may I continue this one.

Much more can be added?


You can add what??

Hugs!

[ednbarby]

I'll be glad to chime in on this one here.

Ennis and Jack, basically, are gay.  I'm a big believer in the Kinsey Scale - so much so that I believed in the concept of it before I ever knew it existed.  That said, on the scale, I think Ennis is actually the more gay, so to speak (or further to that end of the spectrum), of the two of them.  Ennis *clearly* does not enjoy having sex with women.  He more puts up with it because he thinks it's "normal" and expected.  We can see how he doesn't look Alma in the eyes when they're intimate and how he prefers anal sex with her most likely because he's imagining she's a man, specifically Jack.

Jack may be a little more toward the bi-sexual (middle) of the spectrum because he does not seem as adverse to straight sex as Ennis - when Ennis asks him, for example, if things with Lureen are "normal and all," he doesn't hesitate to nod a pretty emphatic yes, as if to say, "Why wouldn't they be?"

I get particularly irritated when people who've seen the movie say anything like "Ennis is Jack-sexual" or "Ennis is straight but in love with a man."  I think if one has seen the movie and still thinks that, they have missed the whole point - the point being that rural homophobia in effect kills Ennis and Jack's relationship - and that part of that homophobia is Ennis', along with self-loathing for being what he deep down knows he is but can't accept.

[Artiste]

Thanks ednbarby!!

Your perspective here about Ennis and Jack is WONDERFUL!!

Wow! Wow!

Here is your comment: I'll be glad to chime in on this one here.

Ennis and Jack, basically, are gay.  I'm a big believer in the Kinsey Scale - so much so that I believed in the concept of it before I ever knew it existed.  That said, on the scale, I think Ennis is actually the more gay, so to speak (or further to that end of the spectrum), of the two of them.  Ennis *clearly* does not enjoy having sex with women.  He more puts up with it because he thinks it's "normal" and expected.  We can see how he doesn't look Alma in the eyes when they're intimate and how he prefers anal sex with her most likely because he's imagining she's a man, specifically Jack.

Jack may be a little more toward the bi-sexual (middle) of the spectrum because he does not seem as adverse to straight sex as Ennis - when Ennis asks him, for example, if things with Lureen are "normal and all," he doesn't hesitate to nod a pretty emphatic yes, as if to say, "Why wouldn't they be?"

I get particularly irritated when people who've seen the movie say anything like "Ennis is Jack-sexual" or "Ennis is straight but in love with a man."  I think if one has seen the movie and still thinks that, they have missed the whole point - the point being that rural homophobia in effect kills Ennis and Jack's relationship - and that part of that homophobia is Ennis', along with self-loathing for being what he deep down knows he is but can't accept.

........................

And here are some of my thoughts on your comments, if I may??

You state that Ennis and Jack are, basically, gay; you do not know that I thought that too!! I am now at times puzzled by that! It could be that they are heterosexuals??  At least to a certain degree?? Are we wishfulthinking, saying they are gay?? Why do you think they are basically gay; because of the film and/or the story by Annie?? Or even the text written for the movie by two other authors?? And/or  the director, or the two main actors (or other actors)??

Some say that Annie calls Ennis and Jack gays?? Is that a fact?

...

I think Annie is basing herself on some truth or truths, and can NOT reveal one or more of that!!
However, attention is on her book, and the movie!! I can NOT reveal more at this time!!

...

The two main actors Heather and Jake, are straights (heterosexuals), it seems... according to their lives and sayings. Is that so?? Or has that changed??
...

So is the director, I think, a straight man? As he has said something once, he does not know of my dislike for it yet!!
He has helped in creating, directing, the movie!! I am more and more unpleased with it, however! And do NOT know how much of a hand he had in it!!

...


I do know that there were gays or one gay person on staff while making the movie. Is that all and has that helped??
...

Hope that I have not distracted you too much with these questions of mine, and pray that you will answer MORE, as I find your thoughts harmonious and searching as worthwhile!!

Hugs!!

[brokebackjack]

If one uses the criteria used in RL to decide whether someone is gay or bi, they are gay. Both of them. With Ennis coming off as gay as a picnic basket.

[brokebackjack]

Let me amend that:

Ennis was GAYER then a picnic basket.

[whiteoutofthemoon]

Thanks for starting the new thread, sometimes its nice to just have a brand new discussion on a topic that will be discussed in film classes for years to come.

I respectfully disagree with the already posted responses here.    I do not feel that Ennis was gay, but Jack was.  First of all, what defines "gay"?   We can probably go on and on about what that is and not come to mutual agreement, but it is not simply because Ennis had sex with a man.  If that were so, then he would be straight, because he also had sex with a woman.   Similarly, Jack would also be classified as straight with that definition.

I look at it more like this:   if Ennis had not met Jack, would he have fallen for another man?   I would say no: i envision him living a long life with Alma and the kids, having grandchildren.     You can possibly argue that he would have always had repressed feelings, but then if he never acted on them nor knew what they represented, then how can you classify him as gay?   There is no indication that he was ever attracted to another man, nor that he will ever be attracted to another man in the future.   

Jack, on the other hand, is implied as having had previous relationships with men, and likely future ones as well, and even had he not met Ennis, would probably had continued such relationships.

I see his situation as having the misfortune (or fortune?) of finding his one and only soulmate out of billions, but that soulmate just happens to be a man.  And that is the tragedy of the whole story.   I personally get irritated when labels are placed on people when it's not that simple;  gay and straight are not issues of black and white but numerous shades of gray.   

[ednbarby]

I disagree.  Being gay is not the act of having gay sex.  It's being attracted to members of the same sex.  Many men and women live the straight lie most of all of their lives when really they are regularly sexually attracted to members of their same sex.  Just read some of the stories here.

Just because Ennis most likely would not have acted on his attractions to men had he not met Jack when he did and been isolated with him for that summer does not make him any less gay.  Ennis is a homosexual.  His own father knew it - sensed it in him by the way he interacted with other boys and girls, the things he said, etc., as a kid.  And so he showed him and his brother what he did.  There would be no reason to show them that if he in no way suspected either of them was a homosexual.

I'll say it again:  Ennis *clearly* does not enjoy having sex with Alma.  You might argue that he doesn't love her.  But I think he does in a platonic way.  He is not attracted to her in any way, though.  He doesn't look at her, he barely kisses her (and seems to be forcing himself to), and he prefers anal sex with her.  Why?  Because he's so straight?

I think you're defining gay as what someone does instead of what someone is, which is dangerously close to the Fundamentalist point of view.

[brokebackjack]

I don't like labels either, I've had more then enough stuck onto my own rump by others.

I don't approach this from the 'are they gay' angle, but from the 'are they bisexual' angle.

Taking Annie Proulx's comments out of the picture entirely, in the beginning I have to say I thought they were both bisexual males. It's too early in the morning to go into the why of it but I did.

Then it  hit me that if I thought they were bi, prove it.

I couldn't.

And I tried.

Why?

Neither Jack nor Ennis show any indication in either film or short story that they were able to do the one [1] thing which means a man is a true  bisexual. I'm not speaking of sex here either....there are many gay men who can be FUNCTIONALLY bisexual with a woman, and there are just as many straight men who can be FUNCTIONALLY bisexual with a man.

I'm speaking of the ability to form a true bond, a deep bond, that bond which heterosexual love takes for granted and gay love does as well.

 I couldn't get past this: neither had any capacity to form any attachment, romantically, with a woman which even remotely had the depth of their romantic attachment to a man--each other. If you look at both characters the desire is there. But the ability simply isn't. The result was a devastated Alma and a Lureen who had all her life and vitality drained from her.

Jack was very functionally bisexual yet as he aged and the relationship wore him down he appears to have lost even that capacity.

Ennis, from the day he got that postcard, was incapable of any attachment to a woman. It was not in him.

He was FOND of Alma and in his own way CARED for her; Cassie as well. But a deep romantic attachment? It was not in him. That man was as gay as they come. I sometimes think Ang Lee had Cassie just to point it out, for exactly that reason!

Cassie was a female Jack Twist, and  Ennis remained....unmoved. Which is why I think he was so gay; if he couldn't fall for Cassie, he couldn't fall for any woman. His machismo sort of hid that fact from me but once I applied that yardstick.....

Neither of these men was capable of forming 'that special bond' with a woman. And that means neither was bisexual....which was a bit disappointing because I wanted them for MY side lol.

[brokebackjack]

You know, I just thought of something: the age they were at their last meeting by the lake.

Very close to 40.

That is the age where bisexual men traditionally--REAL ones, not functional ones--tell themselves that it's time to settle down with one or the other. This may undermine my argument but thought I'd let you know. 40-45 is when they start really looking and the sex does not matter, the person does. Every Bi I know got hitched to one sex or the other at that time, or tried to. Even me, although THAT was such a total mess due to 'environmental circumstances' that it took BBM to get me to say screw this STFU and marry me. { ask front ranger she came to the wedding reception roflmao }

Maybe it doesn't undermine anything but it's a bit of info not many non bi's know. There really are NOT very many of us.

It's the ability to form the bond, not the sex---I can't emphasize that enough. Ever.

There is enough BS talked about bi guys as it is, usually using gay men on their way out as examples...when they most certainly ARE NOT.

[ednbarby]

This is an excellent point and one I had never considered, BBJ.  Thanks!

I come at it not knowing squat about being bisexual (or gay, for that matter).  I think of my two women friends who are regularly mistaken for being lesbians - not that there's anything wrong with that and they are not offended - because they each are well into their 40s and live alone and haven't been in a relationship with a man since they were in their 20s.  That is not by choice - it has just worked out that way.  But I know they're as hetero as the day is long.  I know all about their celebrity and real guy crushes and I know how lonely they both get for a male companion from time to time.  They don't miss the sex (hey, we're women, remember?) so much as the companionship.  Like you would say, BBJ, they really would like to form a lifelong bond with someone, and they'd like that someone to be a man.

[RossInIllinois]

I would say the film portrays both Jack and Ennis as Bi Sexual simply for the fact they do marry Women. Most truly Gay men I know are almost repulsed at the thought of having sex with women and this does not seem to be the case here. In fact we see Ennis having the straight sex in the film where as Jack's is "implied". Now there is ONE scene in the movie that is a bit  Queenie on Ennis' part and thats the "first snow" when he exits the pup tent with his blanket in the morning and "Girly" dances around in the snow when he wakes up. I feel Ang Lee potrays Jack as much more the "same sex" Predator in the film than Ennis. The opening sequence when Jack stares down Ennis standing next to the trailer with that Ooooh thats hot smirk on his face shows that early on, and then its Jack that writes Ennis the first post card not the other way around. It would appear without Jacks persistence the relationship would never have re kindled.

[brokebackjack]

Ross, read the last few posts.

REAL BISEXUALITY is not the sex.

FUNCTIONAL bisexuality is the sex. Many married gay men are labeled as bi when they are not, they are in the process of coming out. I think they find it less embaressing to say they are bi, but it skews how society and individuals look at really bi  males. Very frustrating, that.

Genuine bisexuality, again, is the ability to form ' the bond' regardless of the other person's sex, which does not matter.

Neither of those two had that ability.

[RossInIllinois]

Ross, read the last few posts.

REAL BISEXUALITY is not the sex.

FUNCTIONAL bisexuality is the sex. Many married gay men are labeled as bi when they are not, they are in the process of coming out. I think they find it less embaressing to say they are bi, but it skews how society and individuals look at really bi  males. Very frustrating, that.

Genuine bisexuality, again, is the ability to form ' the bond' regardless of the other person's sex, which does not matter.

Neither of those two had that ability.

I have to disagree, truly "Gay" men don't marry Women and have children. Bi-Sexuals do however. Now can Bi-sexual men later on decide to lead a same sex lifestyle? Yes of course. (Notice I called it a same sex lifestyle and not a Gay lifestyle) I do see a distinct difference in the two.

[brokebackjack]

I have to disagree completely.

Truly gay men most certainly do marry and have children.

All the time.

Such a statement completely bewilders me.There are men all over the forum who have married and had children who would be as baffled as I am at someone who is apparently gay denying this....fact.These guys are GAY, not bi, and would tell you so in 2 milleseconds flat.

I HAVE met some extreme gay men who could as easily throw up as perform cunningilus; to tell you the truth I actually KNOW one who threw up while performing cunningulus, with god only knows what mental  trauma to the girl involved.

The quantity and quality of the abuse to which he was subjected by GAY MEN--some of them INCREDIBLY gay men, one of whom was actually in drag as he ripped this sad sad fellow a new one--was so memorable that someday I may just write it all down and see if I can get it published roflmao. What was startling was that the sort of gay man 'who nobody would know about unless he told them', many of who HAD been in marriages, were the nicest about it. They kept their hilarity private. The others---including a man so gay nobody knew how he could EVER have fathered a child, but father him he did!--ripped him to bits. I mean absolutely destroyed him, it was almost painful to hear no matter that it was incredibly funny.  And deserved. I should perhaps mention here that some of the biggest femmes alive incredulously asked this guy what sort of MAN he was, that he couldn't even preform cunningulus without disgracing himself, and by extension, the gay world.The damned fool just kept repeating his, umm, faux pas and expected to be told things like 'you pooooor pooor boy, how disgusting, how...how...'.

Instead he got the opposite and he deserved it. To sleep with a girl--quite a lovely nice one, too!--and then throw up all over her clitoris is more then bad manners Ross! To compound the matter by telling her that her@#$%^& was disgusting and then barfing all over her breasts as well is simply too much, he had his ass handed to him and the girl involved was sent to a beach house with a few gay men to recover.

She did. They took care of their friend.

Nicely.

As for the fellow who threw up all over her vulva, he eventually moved. His reputation as both male and homo was completely destroyed, it followed him everywhere and he to my knowledge henever figured out that it's not NICE to puke on someones mons generis.  He was so dense he kept blaming her for seducing him, no matter that she said he asked her, and no matter that at age 30 you get seduced when you WANT to get seduced.  He swished his way into semi-legend and was given a deplorably apt nickname which stuck to him like glue. To this day, nigh on 20 years later, you can ask whatever happened to @#$@!$^&* and many many gay people in NYC will know exactly who you mean.

One doesn't puke on a nice girls' vulva in NY and have it go unavenged.

[RossInIllinois]

Confuses you how? I see it as clear as day. The Married ones are Bi. Its just that simple,  If you are able to have a relationship with a Woman you are not 100% same sex exclusive or "Gay".  The word "Gay" is used in our society today to define an individual that is 100% same sex orientation IMO.

[ednbarby]

I know a gay man who was married for many years and has a couple of beautiful children.  He came out about 25 years ago and has been in a committed relationship for the last 20 with his partner.  He and his ex-wife are on decent terms to this day and even get together once and a while with their new partners, and he has a great relationship with his kids.

So, sorry, Ross, but to say that no truly gay man would ever marry and have kids is just plain inaccurate.  This guy would never characterize himself as bi - he's never been interested in any other woman since his wife and honestly wasn't all that interested in her - just had a good friendship with her 'with benefits' (from her point of view only).  If you were to ask him - and even if you weren't - he'd say "I am gay, gay, GAY.  And proud of it."  BBJ is right - many men who truly are gay just characterize themselves as "bi" because it's more socially acceptable.  I know a couple of those men, also.  And that's a shame every way around.

[brokebackjack]

But they are NOT bi. Most of them are coming out, married before they figured it out. Ask them when they have completed the process if they are capable of feeling what they feel for a man the same way they feel for a woman. They will likely say there is no comparison.

This is just what i bang my head on the wall about, what every bi guy I know gets so frustrated at.

WE are not what you think of as BI, using any criteria but the one bi males use among themselves. The guys you describe as bi are functionally bisexual as regards sex and emotionally attached to men. They may think they love their wives but when they realise that they are gay, they leave....if they were really bi it would not matter..

[ednbarby]

Confuses you how? I see it as clear as day. The Married ones are Bi. Its just that simple, and not  100% "same sex" as "Gay" implies.

I must add that you, like whiteoutofthemoon, seem to be defining "gay" as what one does instead of what one is.  If that were the only way to define people, my two aforementioned women friends would be "asexual" since they haven't had sex in 10 years or more.  But the truth is, they'd love to be in a relationship with a man, and part of that would be being intimate with him.  Asexual is not what they are, it's what they happen to be doing right now.  Heterosexual is what they are.

[RossInIllinois]

For what ever reason the 100% "Gay" community has a hard time accepting there are individuals that are not exclusive to either sexual orientation, I see it all the time.  Its a shame that some people can not accept this fact.

[brokebackjack]

NOBODY is 100%, nobody.

But that does not make gay men who sleep/have slept with women bi, anymore then it makes ME gay.

It's a shame they can't face that fact, but they don't.

I went to see Brokeback last year with a few forum people, one of whom was floored when I said wait a minute, I'm not gay and never have been. i'm still not gay. I said that when he said 'Now that you are gay, out of the closet.....'

I'd been open---within limits, I'm not stupid here!--since I was a teenager. You knew who was ok and who would make problems.....

And I never will be, it's not what i am. Nor am i straight. having so many people take away one's identity because one can't fit into their preconceptions is a very frustrating thing.

sleeping with a woman does not make a gay man into a bisexual. It makes him a gay man who is functionally bisexual and that's ALL. there is no way the majority of those guys are bisexual, and they will say as much once their 'out' process is done!

[RossInIllinois]

NOBODY is 100%, nobody.

But that does not make gay men who sleep/have slept with women bi, anymore then it makes ME gay.

It's a shame they can't face that fact, but they don't.

I went to see Brokeback last year with a few forum people, one of whom was floored when I said wait a minute, I'm not gay and never have been. i'm still not gay. I said that when he said 'Now that you are gay, out of the closet.....'

I'd been open---within limits, I'm not stupid here!--since I was a teenager. You knew who was ok and who would make problems.....

And I never will be, it's not what i am. Nor am i straight. having so many people take away one's identity because one can't fit into their preconceptions is a very frustrating thing.

sleeping with a woman does not make a gay man into a bisexual. It makes him a gay man who is functionally bisexual and that's ALL. there is no way the majority of those guys are bisexual, and they will say as much once their 'out' process is done!

Being able to sleep with both Men & Women does make you Bi just accept it please.     "Being Able" is KEY here. True Homosexuals are repulsed at the mere thought of having hetero sex. Bi's are not.

[brokebackjack]

Being able to sleep with both Men & Women does make you Bi just accept it please.     "Being Able" is KEY here. True Homosexuals are repulsed at the mere thought of having hetero sex. Bi's are not.

Ummm no it doesn't. Exactly what we bang our heads on the wall about. Furthermore, for someone who doesn't have a clue to say "just accept it please" is the absolute height of blind arrogance. I mean it: I know very well who and what I am, I've know it since I was 13[ which did absolutely nothing to lessen thebafflement]

i have to ask this...maybe I shouldn't but really, have to after that remark I have to. It's the sort of remark made by  a tenured academic who is completely cut off from reality, which just can't be: are you some sort of sociologist or sexologist or something? Or  do you know what everyone is simply 'because'?? For your statement above is just so dogmatic, so absolute, so closed minded and all that I can't figure out who made someone God. It sounds like the political philosophy of the Bush Family: WE know what's best for you, just accept it.

I'm wondering what my friend who was married, fathered a son, slowly knew he 'was wrong, something was radically wrong' would make of what you keep saying. There is no way he would describe himself as anything but gay, queer, a homosexual. NEVER would he call himself bi and never would he date a woman again. If FORCED he could have sex with a woman, which would mean he was functionally bi. But genuinelly bisexual?? nope. No way. Define your terms with more accuracy, please. Because as stands they are simply out of it.

Please accept that.

[RossInIllinois]

Ummm no it doesn't. Exactly what we bang our heads on the wall about. Furthermore, for someone who doesn't have a clue to say "just accept it please" is the absolute height of blind arrogance. I mean it: I know very well who and what I am, I've know it since I was 13[ which did absolutely nothing to lessen thebafflement]

i have to ask this...maybe I shouldn't but really, have to after that remark I have to. It's the sort of remark made by  a tenured academic who is completely cut off from reality, which just can't be: are you some sort of sociologist or sexologist or something? Or  do you know what everyone is simply 'because'?? For your statement above is just so dogmatic, so absolute, so closed minded and all that I can't figure out who made someone God. It sounds like the political philosophy of the Bush Family: WE know what's best for you, just accept it.

I'm wondering what my friend who was married, fathered a son, slowly knew he 'was wrong, something was radically wrong' would make of what you keep saying. There is no way he would describe himself as anything but gay, queer, a homosexual. NEVER would he call himself bi and never would he date a woman again. If FORCED he could have sex with a woman, which would mean he was functionally bi. But genuinelly bisexual?? nope. No way. Define your terms with more accuracy, please. Because as stands they are simply out of it.

Please accept that.

No Again you are WRONG. My comments come from myself a Bi- sexual man that is in touch with, and owning his reality to what bisexuality vs homosexuality (Gay) really is.  

[Front-Ranger]

I agree with brokebackjack and ednbarby that there are gay men who have sex with women and marry and have a family. Just because they do so does not make them bisexual. There are also gay men who would not even touch a woman much less have sex with her! And it's also the same way with gay women. Brokebackjack, LOL, too much information! Who among us hasn't barfed while having sex, if you haven't you haven't been trying hard enuf!!

[RossInIllinois]

For me its much more black and white. If you sleep with men exclusively you are homosexual (Gay). If you sleep with Women you are Heterosexual. If you are sexually able to have sex with both genders you are bi sexual. (weather or not you choose to admit it). Its a very simple concept to me.

[whiteoutofthemoon]

Once again, Ednbarby, I disagree.   You have NO indication of what Ennis's tendencies or attractions were prior to meeting Jack, other that he was leading a straight life.   We as the viewer have no idea why Ennis's dad showed him the dead body as a kid; you are making presumptions that were not at all in the book nor the movie.    Ennis did not seem attracted to Alma only AFTER he met Jack, which to me was not so much that he had given up on women entirely, but he had fallen for another person, who happenned to be a man.   How do you know that Ennis wasn't madly in lust with Alma before Brokeback, and had regular intercourse all the time?    Heck, they had two daughters pretty darn quick, which means that he was at least enjoying some intercourse!

So, back to my original question, if Ennis had never met Jack, how would you, or Ennis himself, know that Ennis was gay?     I am not defining being gay or straight by what someone does, remember, I disputed that.   But, if you have someone who is married, has kids, demonstrates no attraction whatsoever that he is attracted to men, never has that suspicion in himself (until he meets his "jack"), then how can you possibly label him as gay?

[Artiste]

Thanks to you all!!!

You all are interesting!!!

Great to know that!!!


Will be happy to know more,

hugs!!!

[RossInIllinois]

Once again, Ednbarby, I disagree.   You have NO indication of what Ennis's tendencies or attractions were prior to meeting Jack, other that he was leading a straight life.   We as the viewer have no idea why Ennis's dad showed him the dead body as a kid; you are making presumptions that were not at all in the book nor the movie.    Ennis did not seem attracted to Alma only AFTER he met Jack, which to me was not so much that he had given up on women entirely, but he had fallen for another person, who happenned to be a man.   How do you know that Ennis wasn't madly in lust with Alma before Brokeback, and had regular intercourse all the time?    Heck, they had two daughters pretty darn quick, which means that he was at least enjoying some intercourse!

So, back to my original question, if Ennis had never met Jack, how would you, or Ennis himself, know that Ennis was gay?     I am not defining being gay or straight by what someone does, remember, I disputed that.   But, if you have someone who is married, has kids, demonstrates no attraction whatsoever that he is attracted to men, never has that suspicion in himself (until he meets his "jack"), then how can you possibly label him as gay?

You can't. hence the bisexual moniker. 

[Front-Ranger]

To me, bisexual means attracted to both women and men, not able to function with both.

[brokebackjack]

For me its much more black and white. If you sleep with men exclusively you are homosexual (Gay). If you sleep with Women you are Heterosexual. If you are sexually able to have sex with both genders you are bi sexual. (weather or not you choose to admit it). Its a very simple concept to me.

Ross, simplify it some more!

If you are really bi, and really honest with yourself, you have to KNOW that a genuinely bisexual man can fall in love with a PERSON regardless of their sex.
 
Absolutely regardless of their sex.

If Ennis was bi...what was the problem? He could have stuck with Alma, had non-anal sex, met with Jack up on Brokeback and possibly had the best of both worlds. If he was bi he would have fallen for Cassie: that woman was a female Jack yet he had no interest whatsoever.

If Jack was bi, he would have loved Lureen--or another woman--as deeply as Ennis. Even if not, he would have been able to hold a balance. He was not. He patently had no interest in M/F sex OR in having any woman aside from Lureen... who was a fond convenience. He had no interest in any women aside from his titular marriage. Jack liked FELLAS, and a fella named ENNIS over any other man alive..Ennis liked JACK. Just Jack. Wanted no one else male or female.

And that my friend is that.

{And this is where i may get in trouble with our mod, because I know of no way to explain this aside from personally--if this is waaay OT, feel free to remove it! It's been years since I've heard stuff like this...I HOPE it isn't too disjointed or rambling}

That, my friend, is the key: the ability to fall in love, a love which has  equal depth regardless of whether it's directed towards Jimmy or Juanita. If you can't do that, a man who sleeps with men and women can have or be:

A)   The morals and fastidiousness of a goat.
B)    Fall towards one side or the other, but not in the middle.If you can't fall in love with either, then someone is not bisexual,  someone is pushing the extremes of hetero or pushing the envelope of gay. You have to be able to fall in love regardless of the sex of the person you're sleeping with.
C)    A male with the depth of a puddle and a 13 year old boys obsession with orgasm

Sex is just that: sex. The sex act does not define the bisexual male's personality. In a certain way, the sex--no matter how aroused--is meaningless; if you can't fall in love AND MEAN IT a person is using the term bisexual because it's easier then saying he's  gay or a str8 boy checking it out..[ I am not in this particular paragraph speaking about harmless recreational sex, either.]

When you come down to it in a lot of ways it would have been so much easier to be a non-conflicted young straight lad. SOOOO much easier. It would have been so much easier to have been an avowedly homosexual young GAY lad. Harder, but still easier then to be a bi boy.

Why??

Easy.
 
There was Nobody to talk with.

If you're straight you can talk with thousands, if you're gay you can talk with hundreds. If you're born bi there is virtually NOBODY. As time went on I met other young bi kids. We all had the same problem: no place to fit, no place to go, no idea of what we were and very very confused by having the hots for girls with cute butts and boys with hot bulges.Who the devil does your average bi 16 year old discuss that with??? You fit NOwhere. It was the blind leading the blind. I made my own rules of behaviour, these blended well  the actual inborn sense of who and what i was, and the same can be said of the few friends who were the same. We met each other in the ODDEST ways, too---a beach, a study hall, having a physical fight which both stopped because each recognised...something which somehow  knew was inthe other.

 Every one was a  teenaged misfit. Cool...but different. Nerdy...but different. Quiet. Boisterous. Didn't matter, all were loners and supremely distrustful of others' motives with REASON. I. detested older gay men and supposed straight guys who were pigs. My kid I was closest too detested cool straight dudes, and he was cooler then they were.

As we got older we met men who claimed they were bi, and had the morals of pigs. They would marry and sleep with anything they wanted regardless of the consequences to a wife. They would have gay relationships with a committed partner and sleep with women. These guys had not an ounce of integrity. My friends and I had mad hormones, yet these guys were revolting and we were appalled because they were known as bi. WE thought they were simple opportunistic pigs with the morals of goats and ran in the other direction. They thought they were gods, without saying so. They merely ACTED that way. Rules of any sort within a relationship did not apply, nor did they ever really give a damned about anybody but themselves.

As time went on these screw-whatever-moved guys either died of disease or slid to one side or the other. Looking back, they actually WERE the opportunistic pigs with morals of goats that a bunch of 16-17-18 year old boys THOUGHT they were.

As I got just slightly older, I had a huge break. I developed  a problem of sorts and  older gay men got interested in helping this completely impossible stand-offish arrogant brat [aka, me ] deal with that problem lol.   Absolute altruism on their parts combined with enormous honesty. I'd have never settled down if it wasn't for those guys--hell, who else was willing to take the time. I got some of my friends to join 'us';one had the same problem and also got help for it while the others ended up spending Sunday afternoons with a group of old gay farts for years.

At heart we baffled these guys. All of these older men were gay gay gay, all of them had had sex with women and all of them said it was essentially meaningless. Most were partnered, or had been, for long years. There was no way they would describe themselves as bisexual, there was no way we would describe ourselves as gay.

They did not relate.

I remember well, one day long conversation where everybody baffled everybody else completely. How could they only like men? How could WE like women? How could we combine the two? The resulting decision was we had been born that way. We were not like most [MOST] of the other guys they knew who said they were bi. We differed in one giant aspect, namely that we could and did fall in love with women or men and were happy. I bracketed the word most. That's because they knew a very small number of men  who COULD fall in love like that and DID describe themselves as bi. Outside of relationships we had fun, in them we did not screw around. Two of us were naturally mono, the others, 2 I think did so because they thought it worked, and 1 did so because he was afraid of turning into one of THOSE. ALL of us, to this day, know a guy is bi not by what he does in bed but by with whom he has the ability to fall in love.

Who can you fall deeply in love with? Does it matter if they are a woman? Does it matter if it's a man? Are the bonds just as deep? I feel very sorry for any male who says he is bi and won't/can't answer those to himself. Why? means he has a lot of hell ahead of him.

I've been in love 2 x's, once with each, the sex did not matter, the person did. The actual sex was as satisfyingly passionate with the guy as it was on BBM, the sex with the woman is none of your business, I married her. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

and this is way long.

[brokebackjack]

You can't. hence the bisexual moniker. 

ROSS!!!!!!


You DO have humor!!!!!


lolol

[RossInIllinois]

Ross, simplify it some more!

If you are really bi, and really honest with yourself, you have to KNOW that a genuinely bisexual man can fall in love with a PERSON regardless of their sex.
 
Absolutely regardless of their sex.

If Ennis was bi...what was the problem? He could have stuck with Alma, had non-anal sex, met with Jack up on Brokeback and possibly had the best of both worlds. If he was bi he would have fallen for Cassie: that woman was a female Jack yet he had no interest whatsoever.

If Jack was bi, he would have loved Lureen--or another woman--as deeply as Ennis. Even if not, he would have been able to hold a balance. He was not. He patently had no interest in M/F sex OR in having any woman aside from Lureen... who was a fond convenience. He had no interest in any women aside from his titular marriage. Jack liked FELLAS, and a fella named ENNIS over any other man alive..Ennis liked JACK. Just Jack. Wanted no one else male or female.

And that my friend is that.

{And this is where i may get in trouble with our mod, because I know of no way to explain this aside from personally--if this is waaay OT, feel free to remove it! It's been years since I've heard stuff like this...I HOPE it isn't too disjointed or rambling}

That, my friend, is the key: the ability to fall in love, a love which has  equal depth regardless of whether it's directed towards Jimmy or Juanita. If you can't do that, a man who sleeps with men and women can have or be:

A)   The morals and fastidiousness of a goat.
B)    Fall towards one side or the other, but not in the middle.If you can't fall in love with either, then someone is not bisexual,  someone is pushing the extremes of hetero or pushing the envelope of gay. You have to be able to fall in love regardless of the sex of the person you're sleeping with.
C)    A male with the depth of a puddle and a 13 year old boys obsession with orgasm

Sex is just that: sex. The sex act does not define the bisexual male's personality. In a certain way, the sex--no matter how aroused--is meaningless; if you can't fall in love AND MEAN IT a person is using the term bisexual because it's easier then saying he's  gay or a str8 boy checking it out..[ I am not in this particular paragraph speaking about harmless recreational sex, either.]

When you come down to it in a lot of ways it would have been so much easier to be a non-conflicted young straight lad. SOOOO much easier. It would have been so much easier to have been an avowedly homosexual young GAY lad. Harder, but still easier then to be a bi boy.

Why??

Easy.
 
There was Nobody to talk with.

If you're straight you can talk with thousands, if you're gay you can talk with hundreds. If you're born bi there is virtually NOBODY. As time went on I met other young bi kids. We all had the same problem: no place to fit, no place to go, no idea of what we were and very very confused by having the hots for girls with cute butts and boys with hot bulges.Who the devil does your average bi 16 year old discuss that with??? You fit NOwhere. It was the blind leading the blind. I made my own rules of behaviour, these blended well  the actual inborn sense of who and what i was, and the same can be said of the few friends who were the same. We met each other in the ODDEST ways, too---a beach, a study hall, having a physical fight which both stopped because each recognised...something which somehow  knew was inthe other.

 Every one was a  teenaged misfit. Cool...but different. Nerdy...but different. Quiet. Boisterous. Didn't matter, all were loners and supremely distrustful of others' motives with REASON. I. detested older gay men and supposed straight guys who were pigs. My kid I was closest too detested cool straight dudes, and he was cooler then they were.

As we got older we met men who claimed they were bi, and had the morals of pigs. They would marry and sleep with anything they wanted regardless of the consequences to a wife. They would have gay relationships with a committed partner and sleep with women. These guys had not an ounce of integrity. My friends and I had mad hormones, yet these guys were revolting and we were appalled because they were known as bi. WE thought they were simple opportunistic pigs with the morals of goats and ran in the other direction. They thought they were gods, without saying so. They merely ACTED that way. Rules of any sort within a relationship did not apply, nor did they ever really give a damned about anybody but themselves.

As time went on these screw-whatever-moved guys either died of disease or slid to one side or the other. Looking back, they actually WERE the opportunistic pigs with morals of goats that a bunch of 16-17-18 year old boys THOUGHT they were.

As I got just slightly older, I had a huge break. I developed  a problem of sorts and  older gay men got interested in helping this completely impossible stand-offish arrogant brat [aka, me ] deal with that problem lol.   Absolute altruism on their parts combined with enormous honesty. I'd have never settled down if it wasn't for those guys--hell, who else was willing to take the time. I got some of my friends to join 'us';one had the same problem and also got help for it while the others ended up spending Sunday afternoons with a group of old gay farts for years.

At heart we baffled these guys. All of these older men were gay gay gay, all of them had had sex with women and all of them said it was essentially meaningless. Most were partnered, or had been, for long years. There was no way they would describe themselves as bisexual, there was no way we would describe ourselves as gay.

They did not relate.

I remember well, one day long conversation where everybody baffled everybody else completely. How could they only like men? How could WE like women? How could we combine the two? The resulting decision was we had been born that way. We were not like most [MOST] of the other guys they knew who said they were bi. We differed in one giant aspect, namely that we could and did fall in love with women or men and were happy. I bracketed the word most. That's because they knew a very small number of men  who COULD fall in love like that and DID describe themselves as bi. Outside of relationships we had fun, in them we did not screw around. Two of us were naturally mono, the others, 2 I think did so because they thought it worked, and 1 did so because he was afraid of turning into one of THOSE. ALL of us, to this day, know a guy is bi not by what he does in bed but by with whom he has the ability to fall in love.

Who can you fall deeply in love with? Does it matter if they are a woman? Does it matter if it's a man? Are the bonds just as deep? I feel very sorry for any male who says he is bi and won't/can't answer those to himself. Why? means he has a lot of hell ahead of him.

I've been in love 2 x's, once with each, the sex did not matter, the person did. The actual sex was as satisfyingly passionate with the guy as it was on BBM, the sex with the woman is none of your business, I married her. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

and this is way long.

Well as I see it Jack and his wife vs Ennis is no different than a hetrosexual married guy lusting after another woman. This would be "normal" for a bisexual.

[ednbarby]

Once again, Ednbarby, I disagree.   You have NO indication of what Ennis's tendencies or attractions were prior to meeting Jack, other that he was leading a straight life.   We as the viewer have no idea why Ennis's dad showed him the dead body as a kid; you are making presumptions that were not at all in the book nor the movie.    Ennis did not seem attracted to Alma only AFTER he met Jack, which to me was not so much that he had given up on women entirely, but he had fallen for another person, who happenned to be a man.   How do you know that Ennis wasn't madly in lust with Alma before Brokeback, and had regular intercourse all the time?    Heck, they had two daughters pretty darn quick, which means that he was at least enjoying some intercourse!

So, back to my original question, if Ennis had never met Jack, how would you, or Ennis himself, know that Ennis was gay?     I am not defining being gay or straight by what someone does, remember, I disputed that.   But, if you have someone who is married, has kids, demonstrates no attraction whatsoever that he is attracted to men, never has that suspicion in himself (until he meets his "jack"), then how can you possibly label him as gay?

First of all, we all know Ennis never had sex - period - before Brokeback because he tells Jack so.  And he's not one to lie.  "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."  At this point, we can be fairly certain it isn't gay sex Ennis is talking about, but sex in general.

And to say that he was madly in love with Alma before Brokeback is what's really being presumptuous.  1. We know Ennis is a virgin.  2.  We know Ennis plans to marry Alma when he comes down off the mountain.  And yet it is with Jack that he shares his family and childhood history in a way we can be fairly certain he hasn't shared with Alma.  How can we be?  Because he says so.  "Hell...  That's the most I spoke in a year."  He's spoken more in that one conversation with Jack than he spoke in a whole year with Alma.  Does that not tell you something?  Anything?

And just because he is in denial about his own homosexuality does not make him any less homosexual.

Also, if we look at the short story, there is even more evidence.  What he says about Alma there is this:  "I love my girls.  And Alma?  This ain't her fault."  There is no "I love Alma" or "I thought I loved Alma once."  Just "I love my girls" and "This ain't [Alma's] fault."

You imply that I'm presuming things, and yet you're presuming an awful lot based on your interpretation of the movie, too.

Let's just agree to disagree on this.  You will no sooner convince me that Ennis is anything but predominantly homosexual any sooner than I'll convince you that he's anything but straight.

Truce?

[serious crayons]

You imply that I'm presuming things, and yet you're presuming an awful lot based on your interpretation of the movie, too.

It really does depend on your interpretation of the movie, and how you understand that parts that are hinted at but not spelled out. There aren't always right and wrong answers.

My interpretation is close to Barb's. I don't think Ennis had anything beyond mild nonsexual affection for Alma, and maybe not even that for Cassie. He sounds pvery uninterested in either when he talks to Jack about them. Similarly, I think any love Jack had for Lureen is of the good-friends type.

Maybe gay vs. bi is also a matter of interpretation and personal definition. But to me, it's less based on whether a person is sexually functional with someone of the opposite gender than whether they are sexually attracted to people of the opposite gender. I see no sign that Jack and Ennis are attracted to women.

[RossInIllinois]

First of all, we all know Ennis never had sex - period - before Brokeback because he tells Jack so.  And he's not one to lie.  "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity."  At this point, we can be fairly certain it isn't gay sex Ennis is talking about, but sex in general.

And to say that he was madly in love with Alma before Brokeback is what's really being presumptuous.  1. We know Ennis is a virgin.  2.  We know Ennis plans to marry Alma when he comes down off the mountain.  And yet it is with Jack that he shares his family and childhood history in a way we can be fairly certain he hasn't shared with Alma.  How can we be?  Because he says so.  "Hell...  That's the most I spoke in a year."  He's spoken more in that one conversation with Jack than he spoke in a whole year with Alma.  Does that not tell you something?  Anything?

And just because he is in denial about his own homosexuality does not make him any less homosexual.

Also, if we look at the short story, there is even more evidence.  What he says about Alma there is this:  "I love my girls.  And Alma?  This ain't her fault."  There is no "I love Alma" or "I thought I loved Alma once."  Just "I love my girls" and "This ain't [Alma's] fault."

You imply that I'm presuming things, and yet you're presuming an awful lot based on your interpretation of the movie, too.

Let's just agree to disagree on this.  You will no sooner convince me that Ennis is anything but predominantly homosexual any sooner than I'll convince you that he's anything but straight.

Truce?

Do we know Ennis didn't have sex??? Im not so sure about that one. I wouldn't think a 19 YO kid would think of sex as sinning... I could be wrong. The short states "nothin heed done before" no instructions needed ( hehehe my hero!)  Proulx isn't very clear on this statement as sex in general or anal sex with a guy. You could be right. We do learn Ennis has good aim with both guns however! Piece of cherry cake indeed! 

[ednbarby]

I think Ennis is talking about sex in general here because he is in *deep* denial about his own sexuality.  Do you really think he'd be telling Jack at this point that he'd never had sex with a man before?  In the early 60s (as it is now in some circles), pre-marital sex was considered a sin.  They still call kids born out of wedlock "bastards."

I mean, my God - Ennis couldn't even admit to himself that he had loved a man until he said, "Jack, I swear."  20 years later and who knows how long after Jack's death.  So you think he's referring to anal sex when he's 19?

[Artiste]

Wow, wow, wow, wow!!!!

Thanks very, very, very much all of you!!!!!!!!!!

This information is interesting!!

There are different types of gay sex and/or relationships, same for bi-men, for heterosexuals, and by others,
it seems more evident now.

It remains that at 19 Ennis said to Jack that he had not sex yet. At 19 then, one does think about sex or does not??

Still... a puzzle!! At what age and time sex was an allure for Ennis?? For Jack too??

Why the mention of religion, was that NOT then too?? During that same conversation?? And that made a difference if you were/are gay, bi-, hetero, and/or of other orientation??


Hugs!!

[brokebackjack]

Le Truce!!!!!!

[Artiste]

brokenbackjack, what is:

Le Truce!!!!!!

What is that??

Hugs!!

[brokebackjack]

l'Armistice.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokenbackjack!!

Pourquoi l'Armistice? (WhyArmistice?)

In my dictionary, armistice is what I thought it is: interruption of hostilities... only for awhile!!

I am puzzled. Please explain why you mention this. How do you view this with Ennis and jack??

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!

[Front-Ranger]

I think he meant it in the sense of a meeting of the minds. Yes, Jack??

[Artiste]

Thanks Front-Ranger!!

I think your comment is that!!

And that l'Armistice is much more for brokenback jack.

Much more, I suggest!!

Men here in the movie are hard on each other: Ennis and Jack do fight, like they are at war
with each other!! Hard to understand, maybe for us all??

May I compare brokenjack's word as that, as a start of that??

Hugs!!

[Brown Eyes]

I look at it more like this:   if Ennis had not met Jack, would he have fallen for another man?   I would say no: i envision him living a long life with Alma and the kids, having grandchildren.     You can possibly argue that he would have always had repressed feelings, but then if he never acted on them nor knew what they represented, then how can you classify him as gay? 

Under the hypothetical circumstances you describe here, I would definitely still describe Ennis as gay.  If his true desires were for men and he repressed himself so much that he lived the rest of his life with Alma, it still wouldn't mean that his true sexual orientation is towards Alma.  People can go through the motions physically and still not actually feel the component of true desire that, at least to me, seems to be the core of honest sexual orientation.  I think this is actually demonstrated in Ennis's character both in his behavior towards Alma and towards Cassie.

I think a lot of closeted gay people (both historically and currently) live this way. Unfortunately.

[brokebackjack]

Way I always looked at it was if a man is emotionally oriented towards women he is straight, if he is emotionally oriented towards men he is gay and if he is emotionally oriented towards both he is bi.

I said it last week lol, IMO Ennis was gayer n a picnic basket

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75!

I think that is much in what you say here:
Under the hypothetical circumstances you describe here, I would definitely still describe Ennis as gay.  If his true desires were for men and he repressed himself so much that he lived the rest of his life with Alma, it still wouldn't mean that his true sexual orientation is towards Alma.  People can go through the motions physically and still not actually feel the component of true desire that, at least to me, seems to be the core of honest sexual orientation.  I think this is actually demonstrated in Ennis's character both in his behavior towards Alma and towards Cassie.

I think a lot of closeted gay people (both historically and currently) live this way. Unfortunately.
...

I say that it could be that most gay men (and gay women, lesbians,) bi-sexuals, etc., do live closeted even to-day in the USA, Canada, and some other democratic countries; other have to hide somehow in the others or be killed right away!! That is maybe one thing that Annie says by her story! Also, maybe Annie says that is not even that safe of be gay men even in the USA, Canada, etc., even to-day?

What do you think?

Hugs!

 
 

[Artiste]

Thanks brokenbackjack!!

I tend to agree with you saying this:
Way I always looked at it was if a man is emotionally oriented towards women he is straight, if he is emotionally oriented towards men he is gay and if he is emotionally oriented towards both he is bi.
...

However, I know that it is not that simple, for many reasons and times!! I have known some bi-sexuals who qualify themselves as that, yes: bi-sexuals!! Others, who do not!! Even if I had sex with a lady, I do NOT qualify myself as bi-sexual at all! I qualify myself being a gay man! There are others who do not want either of those 3 categories!!

Hard to say??

Hugs!!

[brokebackjack]

not really...I know plenty of guys who are self described NOW as exclusively gay who had great sex with a woman, liked the woman, even loved her 'in a way' who were never able to love the woman as much as a man.

[HerrKaiser]

Not even the psychological, medical, or other scientific communities can agree on or define the fine lines that blurr the catagorizations of peoples' orientations. The easy ones are the committed polarized groups of 'only straight' or 'only gay', and those get firmed up real quick in the bedroom when things work or someone is repulsed . But, everything in between is up for grabs, and every individual tends to self-define him or herself in a way that works for their life and their unique circumstances, emotional, physical, financial, or whatever.

[Front-Ranger]

Great to see you back, Herr, with your enlightening way of posting!!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokenbackjack!!

I agree with what you say as this I know that too as you talk this concerning 3 categories and mention this about them:
not really...I know plenty of guys who are self described NOW as exclusively gay who had great sex with a woman, liked the woman, even loved her 'in a way' who were never able to love the woman as much as a man.
...

I say that there are indeed more than 3 categories, some unknown yet?

Do you consider Ennis as a homosexual, bi-sexual, straight,  or??

Do you consider Jack as a homosexual, bi-sexual, straight, or ??

May I ask you brokenbackjack??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Thanks HerrKaiser!!


It is very revealing what you say about different categories and times, etc. as you are saying this:
Not even the psychological, medical, or other scientific communities can agree on or define the fine lines that blurr the catagorizations of peoples' orientations. The easy ones are the committed polarized groups of 'only straight' or 'only gay', and those get firmed up real quick in the bedroom when things work or someone is repulsed . But, everything in between is up for grabs, and every individual tends to self-define him or herself in a way that works for their life and their unique circumstances, emotional, physical, financial, or whatever.
 ...

However, am sure you know that some medical, religious, etc., experts (and others) are trying to say about sexual orientation, even in certain ways to categories in order to have gays kill, others killed too, etc., because they are negative against certain persons. We know of those sent and/or taken from many different countries during WWII so they be killed in camps, burned to death by the thousands just because they were gays!! And, even to-day there are hundreths (maybe hundrenths of thousands) murdered or killed by their governments to-day, just because these are gay persons, such events as in Iran, and elsewhere in islamic countries and others even in South America, etc.; plus many murdered in the USA, Canada, England, France, etc. because they were  murdered are gay men!! This is not a subject that many want to talk about, not many even in the gay communities, unfortunately. Fortunately, we still have some liberty to at least talk about it, and try to do something against that those needless murders/killings??

................. How can we try to prevent such murders/killings??

Do you think that Annie writing about Ennis and Jack helps??

Hugs!!

[RossInIllinois]

Under the hypothetical circumstances you describe here, I would definitely still describe Ennis as gay.  If his true desires were for men and he repressed himself so much that he lived the rest of his life with Alma, it still wouldn't mean that his true sexual orientation is towards Alma.  People can go through the motions physically and still not actually feel the component of true desire that, at least to me, seems to be the core of honest sexual orientation.  I think this is actually demonstrated in Ennis's character both in his behavior towards Alma and towards Cassie.

I think a lot of closeted gay people (both historically and currently) live this way. Unfortunately.

I disagree somewhat on your statement. A bisexual can fall in love with either gender. In the case of the story line in BBM, Ennis was not in a loveless relationship with Alma in the beginning. What happens in many marrages is the couple grows apart because of a lack of incompatibility usually on both sides. In the case of BBM Alma turned into a  controlling Woman trying to "mold" Ennis into something she wanted often putting conditions (and him) down in the relationship and this can wreck a marrage in a hurry if its one sided. You can say a similar breakdown happened between Jack and Laureen as well. What Ennis had with Jack Twist was unconditional love, Jack loved Ennis no matter what he did or who he choose to be. This is why he choose to have the homosexual relationship not because he "discovered he was Gay" I would have to assume that Ennis knew he was Bi for awhile however.  Love is a wonderful thing especially when someone loves you for just being who you are.  Indeed "unconditional" Love is a force of nature and should never be ignored it may only happen once in your life. All this Banter is mostly useless anyway because none of it is really true and just implied through Annie Proulx's imagination   

[Brown Eyes]

Do you really think that Ennis ever loved Alma?  I mean really, truly deeply loved Alma?  I certainly don't.  I think he saw her as an opportunity.  And, I think he felt a friendship and a sense of partnership with her at the beginning, but certainly not love.  I think it's totally unfair to call either Alma or Lureen a controlling woman.  The main reason that both marriages failed was that neither Ennis nor Jack were in the marriage because they first and foremost wanted to be with their wives.  Both Ennis and Jack forced themselves into that circumstance.  Yes, Alma wanted to move to town, but beyond that we don't know what kind of "conditions" she put on Ennis.  She even put up with some tremendously distasteful situations in bed (distasteful to her) in order to accomodate the marriage for a while.  I'm no fan of Alma, but I really don't at all feel it's fair to blame her for the ultimate downfall of the marriage.  It was doomed even before they were married.  It was doomed as soon as Ennis met Jack.  I really tend to like Lureen.  I find her to be a much more complex character than Alma.  And, again, I don't think she was a "controlling" figure to Jack.  L.D. certainly was.  But, Lureen seems to have pretty much let Jack do what he liked (didn't really question his interest in the fishing trips, etc.).  And I think her gesture to Ennis on the phone is really nice (both telling him to go to Jack's parents' house and also telling Ennis that Brokeback was Jack's favortie place).  Lureen's behavior during that phone call is light-years better than Alma's "Jack-Nasty" rant.  But, again, I don't blame either wife for the failure of the marriages.  How could those marriages ever possiblly have worked?  Both of the men were already in love with someone else before the weddings ever happened.

And, I agree with you that a bisexual person can fall in love with a person of eithe gender.  And even a gay person (for the record, I myself am gay) can love (in a platonic sense) a friend of the opposite gender.  But, my basic point is that I think Ennis and Jack are both purely gay.  I think Ennis is only going through the motions (for the sake of propriety) when it comes to going through with his marriage, etc.

[Front-Ranger]

I agree with everything you say here, Amanda. The way Ennis talks about Alma ("me and Alma are gettin married as soon as I come down from this mountain," etc.) is so passive and devoid of enthusiasm that it's very clear to me where he stands and that his heart isn't in it, and that's even before he and Jack have an intimate relationship. Which reinforces the feeling that he is gay, IMO. I also think that it was a marriage arranged by Ennis's siblings in agreement with Alma and/or her relatives.

[Artiste]

Thanks Two Jacks!

Wow, wow, you really think Ennis's mariage was arranged in such way??

It could very well be... and such by his brother? Or someone else?

Like an obligation?

Hugs!

[RossInIllinois]

Thanks Two Jacks!

Wow, wow, you really think Ennis's mariage was arranged in such way??

It could very well be... and such by his brother? Or someone else?

Like an obligation?

Hugs!

Hello People??  this is a fictional story!

[Artiste]

Thanks RossInIllinois!

You say this:
Hello People??  this is a fictional story!
...

For many reasons, I think that this is yes a fictional story, and, also a non-fictional story!

Just for instance (just as one example), there have been many true stories on TV news and documentary films this year and last year, about some persons who are obligated to marry the one that their parents do want, especially if they are of a certain religion, cast, etc.; so this subject is in a way to-day's! And, we are finding in Canada and in the USA such obligated marriages and those who refused are killed, yes murdered. If we let, as free citizens, such murderers run our countries, are we civilized? How many gay men were burned to death in the WWII only because they were gay, countless,  and other persons were murdered because murderers room. If Ennis is a straight man or a gay man and/or something else, that needs to be talked about, I think, as we can NOT be blind because many gay men are being murdered to-day in our countries and elsewhere for NOTHING!

Pray you inderstand why I am searching in many ways how to stop the needless killing of gay men and of others??

Your ideas are invited!! Please!! True, it could be that Annie did a fiction story; however, she did surely know about the needless killing of the Sheperd gay man, yes? And she still thinks about that, as she fears ( I feel) for gay men as she thinks daily about Ennis and Jack even to-day after she wrote her story!!

I would appreciate your ideas, etc., here, RossInIllinois,

like always your comments I do,

hugs!!

[RossInIllinois]

Thanks RossInIllinois!

You say this:
Hello People??  this is a fictional story!
...

For many reasons, I think that this is yes a fictional story, and, also a non-fictional story!

Just for instance (just as one example), there have been many true stories on TV news and documentary films this year and last year, about some persons who are obligated to marry the one that their parents do want, especially if they are of a certain religion, cast, etc.; so this subject is in a way to-day's! And, we are finding in Canada and in the USA such obligated marriages and those who refused are killed, yes murdered. If we let, as free citizens, such murderers run our countries, are we civilized? How many gay men were burned to death in the WWII only because they were gay, countless,  and other persons were murdered because murderers room. If Ennis is a straight man or a gay man and/or something else, that needs to be talked about, I think, as we can NOT be blind because many gay men are being murdered to-day in our countries and elsewhere for NOTHING!

Pray you inderstand why I am searching in many ways how to stop the needless killing of gay men and of others??

Your ideas are invited!! Please!! True, it could be that Annie did a fiction story; however, she did surely know about the needless killing of the Sheperd gay man, yes? And she still thinks about that, as she fears ( I feel) for gay men as she thinks daily about Ennis and Jack even to-day after she wrote her story!!

I would appreciate your ideas, etc., here, RossInIllinois,

like always your comments I do,

hugs!!

If you could figure that out sweetheart,  you would win a Nobel Peace Prize!

[Artiste]

Thanks RossInIllinois!

Replying to your comment which is this:
If you could figure that out sweetheart,  you would win a Nobel Peace Prize!
...

I like your sense of humour!

Yes, let us do that aim high, as it would be great to prevent somehow as this can maybe do so too, murders of gay men and of others persons!!

Waiting for a clue from you on this, too!
And if you figure Ennis and Jack are gays, bi-, straights, and /or?
as that might help.... and you are welcome,

hugs!

[fritzkep]

Hey Artiste, you asked me to add my $0.02, so here goes.

As far as I'm concerned, Jack was the love of Ennis' life, and vice versa. If society had not forced them to marry women, with children as a natural result of their marriages, I think they would have stayed together and have had a happy if not exactly strife-free partnership. So, in that sense, I would say that they were gay. No woman could provide the physical love that they were seeking.

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks fritzkep!

I think like you do... in a way!!

May I ask this? If Ennis (which I felt Ennis wanted) and Jack had married their ladies, and still they had told their wives, all the four could have stayed together, maybe??

Is that possible to-day?? Not too much of a big maybe??

Hugs!!

[fritzkep]

I doubt it, even today, since Alma and Lureen would have not put up with it. Jack and Ennis could accept each other being with women, but the women would have felt threatened by their men being intimate with other men.

[ednbarby]

I totally agree with you, Fritz.  And I think Ennis and Jack were able to accept the idea of one another being with women because they both knew that, like you said, no woman could provide the physical (and I also think emotional) bond they provided to each other.

[brokebackjack]

Hey Artiste, you asked me to add my $0.02, so here goes.

As far as I'm concerned, Jack was the love of Ennis' life, and vice versa. If society had not forced them to marry women, with children as a natural result of their marriages, I think they would have stayed together and have had a happy if not exactly strife-free partnership. So, in that sense, I would say that they were gay. No woman could provide the physical love that they were seeking.

Hugs!

FRITZ!!!!!

hell, great to see you! [ a bit OT but I wonder --after the BBQ reactions--why Cullen attracts some pretty cool Brokies, --with a few wacks---why BM attracts funky cool brokies---with fewer wacks---and the 3rd forum  @!#$%#$%^& #$%^^& #@$ 3456 with a few cool BROKIES. Are we just lucky???LOLOLOL]

That's a great explanation of their essential gayness fritz.

[fritzkep]

You're right about the emotional bond, of course. Jack and Ennis were such that each needed each other badly. Not even another man would have been sufficient for each of them. Having said that, I remain hopeful that Ennis, after Jack's passing, would have somehow found another man (not unlike Ellery!), not as a replacement for Jack by any means, but as a way for him to share his love, and relieve his terrible loneliness.

[fritzkep]

Hey Jack! Great to see you here too!

[Artiste]

Thanks fritzkep, neverenoughm and brokebabckjack!!!

Then why did Ennis wife wait so long??

Hugs!!!

[fritzkep]

She really did love him, which made her blind to his true nature, which up to the moment of the reunion was completely beyond her experience. I still fault society for forcing Jack and Ennis apart rather than for having driven Alma and Ennis together.

[ednbarby]

Then why did Ennis wife wait so long??

Denial is a very powerful thing.  Hell, how many wives hang on for years knowing full-well their husbands are carrying on affairs with other women?  There's that, plus an element of shame.  What would she tell people was the reason she left him - that she saw him making out with another man?  She just couldn't wrap her mind around it.  And she had two young children.  It's complicated.  Just like any marriage is, only moreso (or in different ways).

[Artiste]

Thanks fritzkep!

You say this:
She really did love him, which made her blind to his true nature, which up to the moment of the reunion was completely beyond her experience.
...

Ennis's wife did see the Ennis and Jack kissing ardently and many times and long... it seems that way in the movie.
Maybe so in Annie's story??

But she did not cut off Ennis right away, nor in a week or two... she stayed with Ennis for how many  months or years?? That is puzzling to me!

Is it not to you?

Hugs!

[fritzkep]

In the words of NeverEnough, DENIAL!

Besides, she probably thought she could win him back, that this gay episode was just something passing, not realizing how deep Ennis's love for Jack was.

Gotta go to bed now, till later!

[Artiste]

Thanks fritzkep!

Wow, as you say this concerning Ennis's wife staying that long with Ennis after she saw Ennis and Jack kiss ardently:
that this gay episode was just something passing.
...

I never thought of that!

Would such a lady or ladies think that??

Pray you had a great dream like Ennis and jack... somehow as you like it!!

Hugs!

[serious crayons]

that this gay episode was just something passing.
...

I never thought of that!

Would such a lady or ladies think that??

Yes, I think she didn't really know what to make of it and hoped it would just go away. Whatever she had probably heard about homosexuality in those days was so unlike what she saw in Ennis that she couldn't really connect the two.

May I ask this? If Ennis (which I felt Ennis wanted) and Jack had married their ladies, and still they had told their wives, all the four could have stayed together, maybe??

Is that possible to-day?? Not too much of a big maybe??

No, I don't think it's possible. Set aside the sexual orientation aspect. Very few married partners are willing to stay with a spouse who is in love with someone else, whatever the genders involved.

In the case of the story line in BBM, Ennis was not in a loveless relationship with Alma in the beginning.

To the extent that you can call it love, it looks pretty platonic to me.

What happens in many marrages is the couple grows apart because of a lack of incompatibility usually on both sides. In the case of BBM Alma turned into a  controlling Woman trying to "mold" Ennis into something she wanted often putting conditions (and him) down in the relationship and this can wreck a marrage in a hurry if its one sided. You can say a similar breakdown happened between Jack and Laureen as well.

If you completely took Jack's and Ennis' feelings for each other out of the equation, the two marriages might not have been ideal. Even if Jack and Ennis were both straight, they might not have been ideal. But the big problem with the marriages as we see them is that Jack and Ennis are not sexually interested in their wives, and they are in love with each other.

As for Alma and Lureen's behavior, Alma I find kind of annoying for her nagging about better apartments and jobs (understandable as that might be, it still grates on my nerves). Lureen I suspect might have been a perfectly fine wife if she'd been married to a (straight) man who loved her.

All this Banter is mostly useless anyway because none of it is really true and just implied through Annie Proulx's imagination    ... Hello People??  this is a fictional story!

Yes, BBM is a fictional story, but it undoubtedly represents a particular version of a real-life situation that has taken place literally millions of times throughout history.

[Artiste]

Thanks ineedcrayons!

Your comment about Ennis's wife staying so long with her husband Ennis after she saw him kiss Jack mutually, you say this:
Yes, I think she didn't really know what to make of it and hoped it would just go away. Whatever she had probably heard about homosexuality in those days was so unlike what she saw in Ennis that she couldn't really connect the two.
...

I am puzzled by your comment! I thought that a woman is not jealous of another man loving another man (even sexually), many or some or one women/woman said/say even once they find out their husbands do sex with another man or other men!! And, therefore, would stay with their husband! But would not stay likely with their husband if he would find/have sex with another woman!!

I think then and now, that many ladies married to a husband do know about their man having a pal-t-pal relationship with another man, but that does NOT bother her as long as their is no proof like kissing and/or sex in front of her!!

On Oprah, it seemed that her show was to state how husbands go to have sex secretly with another man/ other men, and, therefore, the impression was that the wives would get a divorce afterwards??
As most woman want exclusively a man as a husband!! ??

So once if sex by the husband is known, then the wife will ask for separation? Otherwise, the wife stays with her husband, even if she thinks that he might be a gay man?

Be happy to here fro you and all,

hugs!

[serious crayons]

I am puzzled by your comment! I thought that a woman is not jealous of another man loving another man (even sexually), many or some or one women/woman said/say even once they find out their husbands do sex with another man or other men!! And, therefore, would stay with their husband! But would not stay likely with their husband if he would find/have sex with another woman!!

I think then and now, that many ladies married to a husband do know about their man having a pal-t-pal relationship with another man, but that does NOT bother her as long as their is no proof like kissing and/or sex in front of her!!

Well, of course, every marriage is different. But I would say in general that while wives do not want their husbands to be seeing other women, they'd be likely to object more, not less, to their husband having a sexual relationship with another man. For traditional and/or homophobic wives, this is because they object to homosexuality per se. But also I think many wives, traditional or progressive, would feel that their husband's attraction to men could indicate they are not attracted to women, including the wife, so the relationship is a threat on two fronts (of course, the husband could be bisexual, but if so the wife might not be aware of that).

There probably are some wives out there who would object less to their husband's having a male lover, perhaps because they don't take it as seriously as a female lover, or something like that. And there are probably wives who don't mind their bisexual husbands having male lovers, and so on. But I would think these would be relatively rare responses.

[Artiste]

Thanks ineedcrayons!

Your comments are welcome, as I can dwell on them. Somehow, might be helpful too to others.

I will mention only one for now as you say this:
Well, of course, every marriage is different. But I would say in general that while wives do not want their husbands to be seeing other women, they'd be likely to object more, not less, to their husband having a sexual relationship with another man.
...

You accent to object MORE!! I would have thought LESS or NOT AT ALL!!

On Oprah, the wives who found out that their husbands were gay (maybe bi-sexuals??) were HAPPY that it was NOT another woman!! May I ask why?? I can not remember their answers.

If Ennis and Jack were homosexuals, bi-sexuals, heterosexuals or defining each themselves (and/or as a couple) as something else, did each prefer what is called a monosexual relationship?? With whom?? And when??

I am still puzzled as to why Ennis's wife stayed that long with her husband, as the movie seems to say!!

Awaiting your news and that of others too,

hugs!!