Author Topic: Jack was maligned unfairly  (Read 14154 times)

Offline Front-Ranger

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Jack was maligned unfairly
« on: March 20, 2007, 10:53:15 pm »
I had a scare tonite--I needed to read this topic so badly and I couldn't find it anywhere! As you might expect, it has disappeared from imdb where I laboured over it such a long, long time ago--a year ago!!

But thanks to Jenny and Andrew, it is saved here:

http://www.geocities.com/bbmarchive/

Look halfway down the left side, under Characters and then under Jack Twist.

I will synopsize the thread and then post more soon. Please add your thoughts!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2007, 01:22:55 am »
Ennis told Jack to hush up his harmonica playing or else he'd scare off the sheep. This runs contrary to the prevailing customs in the sheepherding industry. Cowboys and sheepherders' musical skills were valued. They calmed down the livestock, they did not run them off. This was documented in Patricia Earl Warren's article "Homos on the Range" in True West Magazine, discussing Brokeback Mountain.

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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2007, 10:33:00 pm »
Ennis told Jack to hush up his harmonica playing or else he'd scare off the sheep. This runs contrary to the prevailing customs in the sheepherding industry. Cowboys and sheepherders' musical skills were valued. They calmed down the livestock, they did not run them off. This was documented in Patricia Earl Warren's article "Homos on the Range" in True West Magazine, discussing Brokeback Mountain.



Thanks so much for posting the archives for TOB - I never knew that index existed though I have spent many an hour on IMDB reading the older posts. Interesting topic - I always interpreted Ennis' comment as tongue-in-cheek - apparently he did not think that Jack's musical ability with the harmonica had a 'calming' effect upon the sheep, or upon him.  Maybe from another perspective, do you think that it made Ennis feel uncomfortable or that he just liked to tease Jack about it? I'm wondering if maybe Ennis saw it as not very macho.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2007, 11:06:47 pm »
Quote
...do you think that it made Ennis feel uncomfortable or that he just liked to tease Jack about it? I'm wondering if maybe Ennis saw it as not very macho.

That's an interesting thought, but I don't see it that way, Cat. The way men relate, minor insults passed back and forth are a sign of friendship. (Took me a long time to figure that out. In fact, it can be hilarious to listen to!) You can't tease a stranger, but you can a friend, you know? (It's part of why Jack laughs heartily when Ennis shoves him & says "tired a your dumbass missin!" It's kind of a breakthrough, really.)

However, something like harmonica playing is something Ennis would never do -- can you picture him doing it? It doesn't fit him -- too lighthearted & outgoing for his character.

Interestingly however, Ennis is more vocal and verbal with the animals than anyone else in the film. He has a constant dialogue with them, with his whistles and chirps. An earthy person more aligned (and comfortable) with the animal world, maybe.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2007, 11:22:56 pm »
Hooray for the Archives!  They save the day once again!
 :-*

I agree with a couple points above, that in this scene with Jack playing the harmonica near the sheep Ennis is teasing and even flirting with Jack.  I think he's trying (consciously at this point) to turn the harmonica into an inside joke between the two of them.  Which I think is why he brings it up again years later during the reunion camping trip.  I don't think he's actually bothered by Jack's harmonica playing one tiny bit.  At this point, I think he's so smitten with Jack that he probably thinks it's adorable and the best music he's ever heard.  The happy look on Ennis's face indicates this to me (his facial expression and the tone of his voice contradict his teasing remark). 

It's interesting that it seems that the harmonica fits Jack's personality (maybe because it's loud and exhuberant) and not Ennis's.  But, Ennis is musical.  We know he likes to hum/sing to himself and then he hums to Jack too during the flashback.
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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2007, 11:56:00 pm »
Those are good points, Amanda! Ennis WAS musical after all, and, I actually thought he was not that bad of a dancer! I've seen much worse! Jack for his part was actually a good cook--a fine potato parer, even in the face of distractions!! He was not just the only combine salesman they had, he was a good combine salesman! In fact, he was excellent at combining and at Sales!! There wasn't a thing that he didn't do well, and, he used to try, he really tried.

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2007, 12:05:53 am »
and, he used to try, he really tried.

Awwww.  Why yes he did.   :D  I think Jack's relative awkwardness at certain things and his continuing willingness to "try" is very, very cute. 

This whole "trying" topic is what Jake said he was going for a lot of the time in that interview on the DVD (I'm sure you all realize this).
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2007, 01:44:15 am »
Jack was being teased, it was an inside joke. He DID, after all, suck on the harmonica
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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2007, 02:20:21 am »
All of these are such good insights - definitely I agree with your interpretation LG, that of a friendly, teasing nature that Ennis had and his comfortableness in ribbing Jack...you're exactly right about the comaraderie that males develop in this respect. Great allusion everyone to Ennis' natural 'musical' abilities versus Jack's learned musical abilities (I assume he learned or was self-taught on the harmonica) - and the fit with each of their respective personalities.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2007, 10:31:34 am »
Jack was being teased, it was an inside joke. He DID, after all, suck on the harmonica

Well, of course he did suck on the harmonica, that's how you play a harmonica, you suck and blow!  ;D

And, Amanda, I got the quote wrong... I think it was "He used to try." This is from the "pissant" scene.

I would also like to mention that in this movie, Jack played the archetype of the good shepherd, and the harmonica was one of the tools he used to minister to his flock. In Ennis's ribbing, were there elements not only of admiration, but also envy and jealousy??
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2007, 11:18:28 am »
And, Amanda, I got the quote wrong... I think it was "He used to try." This is from the "pissant" scene.

Oh, sure, that's good too.  But, you know the interview I mean with Jake, right?  It's one of the special features on the DVD where he goes on and on about not being the best at cowboy skills (not so great at riding horses, etc.) and he thought that was OK because he wanted to maintain the sense that Jack also didn't always have the best cowboy skills... but that Jack tried and tried.  Jake sort of sounds like he's struggling to articulate how to best say this... but it also feels like he would be right at home on this thread discussing this issue!
 :D



If Ennis was jealous of Jack over something my feeling is that it would be over Jack's relative comfort in his own skin.  I wonder if Ennis was a little bit in awe of Jack's comfort at striking up conversations and in his open-ness- relative to Ennis's painful reserve.
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Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2007, 02:03:13 pm »
Quote
In Ennis's ribbing, were there elements not only of admiration, but also envy and jealousy??

f Ennis was jealous of Jack over something my feeling is that it would be over Jack's relative comfort in his own skin.  I wonder if Ennis was a little bit in awe of Jack's comfort at striking up conversations and in his open-ness- relative to Ennis's painful reserve.

I agree with Amanda, and would say that it was more awe than jealousy.

If anyone had jealousy over Jack's open-ness and lack of inhibition, it was John Twist.  A poster once said that meeting John was part of Ennis' evolution: that he was seeing a future version of himself if he didn't change his ways. I don't disagree.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2007, 03:58:00 pm »
A poster once said that meeting John was part of Ennis' evolution: that he was seeing a future version of himself if he didn't change his ways. I don't disagree.

Ooooo!  That's a very interesting point.  I wonder though if Ennis would have ever been *that* hostile and mean-spirited.  I could imagine Ennis becoming more and more and more introverted.  Maybe that would go hand in hand with becoming more openly bitter and hostile.  But, Ennis in general seems like a very different personality than John Twist.  But, it's an intriguing suggestion as to the significance of this meeting.

I think it caused him to learn a lot about Jack.  It probably caused him to realize the folly of the comment that Ennis made during the last argument that he thought Jack "forgot what it's like to be broke all the time."  Given how his parents lived, Jack surely hadn't forgotten what poverty is all about. 
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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2007, 04:17:48 pm »
It probably caused him to realize the folly of the comment that Ennis made during the last argument that he thought Jack "forgot what it's like to be broke all the time."  Given how his parents lived, Jack surely hadn't forgotten what poverty is all about. 
Good point, Amanda! In fact, I counted several times when Ennis dissed Jack unfairly. It may have been three times! But I think it was more than that.

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2007, 04:30:48 pm »
It's interesting to try to sort out the instances when Ennis is *teasing* Jack in a fun way (a flirting way or a way that indicates the level of their friendship) vs. the moments when his "dissing" becomes mean-spirited (as in the argument scene... I've always thought the "boys like you" was an awfully harsh thing for Ennis to say... even in the heat of an argument).

Poor Jack.

 :(

I think it's sort of easy to see him as a bit of a puppy that gets kicked a lot (so to speak).  His Dad is mean to him, Ennis is hard to deal with (at least sometimes), L.D. is mean to him, the customers at the tractor dealership (and probably by extension a lot of people in Childress) are mean to him, etc.  This is on top of the sad notion that most of Jack's ideas/ dreams "never came to pass."  And then he dies young (either by murder or by horrible accident!!


 :'( :'(
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2007, 05:37:58 am »
To tell ya the truth I think Ennis just knew it was some goddayumed god awful harmonica playin and wished that harmonica had broke in two when the mare threw him, to spair EDM's ears.

That was some lousy marmonica playin JT did. We malign him fairly!

annie was correct, the man was marginally skilled.......
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2007, 01:17:07 pm »

Poor Jack.

 :(

I think it's sort of easy to see him as a bit of a puppy that gets kicked a lot (so to speak).  His Dad is mean to him, Ennis is hard to deal with (at least sometimes), L.D. is mean to him, the customers at the tractor dealership (and probably by extension a lot of people in Childress) are mean to him, etc.  This is on top of the sad notion that most of Jack's ideas/ dreams "never came to pass."  And then he dies young (either by murder or by horrible accident!!


Sure, and we all hate to see Jack be treated that way. Getting more into the psychology of Jack though - how much of the mistreatment by others could he have deflected or changed? In some ways because of his unassertive nature, Jack was the "puppy that gets kicked a lot" so to speak. I hate to say he allowed it, but in a way he did. I really saw Jack develop his assertiveness though, throughout the movie with the culmination at the FLS. Perhaps Jack's ideas/dreams 'never came to pass' because he lacked follow-through and self-confidence (yes, he was confident in some things but not the 'biggies' - his ideas/dreams). Maybe he had a self-fulfilling expectation of failure- and maybe others saw this in him too.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2007, 01:40:53 pm »
Maybe you're right...but look at the facts: Jack had a successful marriage and was a good father, even tho he never wanted to get married or have kids. Jack was successful financially, and was a good businessman, and the best combine salesman they had. He regularly made the long trip back to the godforesaken wilderness of Wyoming to visit his parents and look after their needs. He got his teeth fixed LOL. He went to charity fundraisers. He stopped to help people stranded by the side of the road. He rescued fair maidens whose husbands were too busy oogling him to dance.  He...

I won't be happy until you all say in unison JACK WAS MALIGNED UNFAIRLY!!  8)

Oh, and you know who actually played that harmonica? It was Gustavo!
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 02:11:08 pm »
Only for LEE:

JACK WAS MALIGNED UNFAIRLY


He was a world class harmonica player.


{ on the non debatable side, he was a good man, he loved his boyfriend so much it destroyed him, he was handsome, he had a good good heart; Jack loved his son, liked his wife, told LD to drop dead and last but not least I also hear he was hung like the proverbial horse. }
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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 02:24:55 pm »
hehe, bbjack, I was just writing about how Jack was like a horse, but I didn't think of that one! (Who cares with that tongue of his!!) Go look at this:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1039.msg172121.html#msg172121

oh, and if you go back one page you can also read more on the harmonica issue written by our FRiend EDelMar!!


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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2007, 03:16:55 pm »
I hate to be a post stealer but yes, JACK WAS MALIGNED UNFAIRLY, Lee.

Perhaps I was too critical of Jack, I only wanted to point out that his personality was perhaps a factor in him not achieving much more than he wanted. Overall, he was a good man. I definitely agree he had many many redeeming qualities, especially his good looks!
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 04:32:40 pm »
hehe, bbjack, I was just writing about how Jack was like a horse, but I didn't think of that one! (Who cares with that tongue of his!!) Go look at this:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1039.msg172121.html#msg172121

oh, and if you go back one page you can also read more on the harmonica issue written by our FRiend EDelMar!!



The tongue is genetic, his pappy does the same thing lolololol
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2007, 07:41:14 pm »
Sure, and we all hate to see Jack be treated that way. Getting more into the psychology of Jack though - how much of the mistreatment by others could he have deflected or changed? In some ways because of his unassertive nature, Jack was the "puppy that gets kicked a lot" so to speak. I hate to say he allowed it, but in a way he did. I really saw Jack develop his assertiveness though, throughout the movie with the culmination at the FLS. Perhaps Jack's ideas/dreams 'never came to pass' because he lacked follow-through and self-confidence (yes, he was confident in some things but not the 'biggies' - his ideas/dreams). Maybe he had a self-fulfilling expectation of failure- and maybe others saw this in him too.

Well, I'll agree with you while still maintaining my position of feeling so, so sorry for Jack (and Ennis too). 

I agree that neither Jack nor Ennis were completely passive victims of society, circumstance, etc.  There were instances where societal elements/ unfair circumstances were entirely beyond their control.  But, there were also decisions and mistakes that were within their control too (this can be said for Alma and Lureen, etc. too).  People are certainly responsible for some of their own fate and their own happiness to a certain extent.  Jack certainly made mistakes (for example, perhaps in letting Ennis leave too easily at the end of the '63 summer... and perhaps he misjudged and shouldn't have driven up for a surprise visit following Ennis's divorce, etc.).  But, likewise, Ennis is somewhat responsible for the sad situation he's left in at the end.  His motto of "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" turned into his own self-imposed life sentence.

None of the characters are "perfect" and their tragedy has a lot to do with imperfect decisions that all people make.  At a basic level all of this just adds to the realism of the story and makes the tragedy feel so plausible.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2007, 05:07:59 am »
hehe, bbjack, I was just writing about how Jack was like a horse, but I didn't think of that one! (Who cares with that tongue of his!!) Go look at this:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1039.msg172121.html#msg172121

oh, and if you go back one page you can also read more on the harmonica issue written by our FRiend EDelMar!!


Lee, can't find Edelmar....
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2007, 01:08:19 pm »
Here is the link to EDelMar's treatise on the harmonica playing:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,1039.msg149044.html#msg149044

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2007, 05:30:54 pm »
Hooray for the Archives!  They save the day once again!
 :-*

I agree with a couple points above, that in this scene with Jack playing the harmonica near the sheep Ennis is teasing and even flirting with Jack.  I think he's trying (consciously at this point) to turn the harmonica into an inside joke between the two of them.  Which I think is why he brings it up again years later during the reunion camping trip.  I don't think he's actually bothered by Jack's harmonica playing one tiny bit.  At this point, I think he's so smitten with Jack that he probably thinks it's adorable and the best music he's ever heard.  The happy look on Ennis's face indicates this to me (his facial expression and the tone of his voice contradict his teasing remark). 

It's interesting that it seems that the harmonica fits Jack's personality (maybe because it's loud and exhuberant) and not Ennis's.  But, Ennis is musical.  We know he likes to hum/sing to himself and then he hums to Jack too during the flashback.

Interesting, friend! I never thought of it that way...maybe this is one way the filmmakers are trying to bring AP's writing to life, when she wrote, "Ennis felt as good as he ever had, thought he could paw the white out of the moon." And about the harmonica fitting Jack, I agree with you in so many ways. Even in the simple way that the harmonica creates sound by air passing thru it, when Jack is associated with air and wind, and was supposedly felled by a tire exploding when he was pumping it up with air. Also, the harmonica, despite being "flattened" by a throw from a low-startle-point filly (while Jack was waylaid by Lureen) keeps going and making its music, not letting setbacks derail it!!

Your point about Ennis surprisingly being musical too is well taken. He likes to bang on the coffeepot, and in the story he knows the salty words to The Strawberry Roan." Perhaps he is like the livestock that can be calmed by the crooning of a cowboy, yet skittish of its charms!!
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2007, 05:05:43 am »
wew3ll, he was a good guy, they both were. But neither of them was particularly competent...
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2008, 07:03:29 am »
When the character's creator says he is MARGINALLY SKILLED as a bull rider, cowboy etc., THEN HE IS. There is no way around Annie. But this does not say he was a bad guy, it says he didn't have skills. Jack Twist, who is second fiddle in the short story if not the film, is one of the most appealing characters in English language literature.
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2008, 02:33:45 pm »
Hi to you all!!

Just discovered with joy this thread!! And was happy to read all comments!!

Concerning Jack and Ennis about the harmonica, since I consider that they both were maligned infairly... in different ways and degrees, that instrument shows them both as shy!! To me, when I think about it!

My father played the harmonica, when he could. At times at small parties, to spark them. Even when we had to go moose hunting, he played it... then too, maybe to scare away wolves or to celebrate the hunt success since we often did nearly starve and had to go into the forest to survive!!  But I had never realized that he was extremely shy and that that he was hidding in a way behind the harmonica!!

It seems to me that Jack hides with his harmonica as his shyness, and also rings hope or happiness at other times with it. AS in my paintings I create, there is a duality about harmonica playing!! ??

The bad persons or wolves (if I may use those words) who senses or sees that Jack is shy, pry on him and want to hurt him in different ways, even bash or murder him easily!! So, at time(s), Jack realizes that and protects himself!! With or without his harmonica! Many types of persons maligns Jack unfairly!!

As for Ennis, he senses Jack true nature: shyness!! Since, Ennis is extremely shy too. Maybe much more so that Jack?? And accepts Jack shyness via harmonica... tunes more and more, even applauding him for it!! Since Ennis is helped that way, as one way, to open up to life, more and more!!

Harmonica or playing other instruments are also beautiful past times, right?? Being up there in the mountains, such effort at time are delights for both (Ennis and Jack)!!

But where did Jack learn or get his harmonica? From his father? From his mother? Or? Any clues?

It remains that Jack in many ways unmentioned yet maybe, that he was maligned unfairly in the Brokeback Mountain movie since he was a shy charactor? And therefore pried (is that the right word?) upon?

Hugs!! May all harmonica players in the world play tunes for gay joys in life!!






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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2008, 11:22:13 am »
Jack spent his whole life unable to say to Ennis, "I love you." How could this have happened? It happened little by little. In the very beginning, he wanted to reach out to Ennis. He began to walk right up to him. But, Ennis just lowered his head and covered his face with his hat brim, blocking Jack off. That was okay. Jack went back to the shelter of his truck, and spruced up for Ennis, sneaking glances in his rear-view mirror. Aguirre conferred even more power on Ennis, while lecturing to Jack, pointing to him and ordering him to break the rules. At the next possible opportunity, Jack reached out to Ennis again. Once again, Ennis rebuffed Jack by only giving his first name.

Finally, at the tavern, Ennis's guard began to come down. Ennis was emboldened to borrow Jack's lighter, then to tell him to watch out for the low-startle-point filly. Jack felt the balance of power changing. He adopted a blustery front for Ennis, toting sheep across the stream, shlepping water.

As the herder, Jack had to spend long hours away from camp, and he often looked down on Ennis's night fire. He complained about the situation, hoping to get more of Ennis's companionship, but instead Ennis dictated that the boys should switch roles and Ennis should take control of the herd and the gun. Not being a homebody, Jack had no interest in cooking and tending the camp. He was inept even at nursing wounds when Ennis came home hurt. Ennis was pretty much in total control by the time he shot the elk for Jack because he was tired of Jack's "dumbass missing." He also maligned Jack's harmonica playing and his rodeo experience, saying (by quoting his father) that rodeo cowboys "was all fuckups."
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2008, 05:16:22 pm »
Little by little Ennis let his guard down with Jack, and on the fateful nite of TS1, Jack opened the door and Ennis entered. The ensuing dead sheep of the movie was a foreboding sight for Ennis but didn't shake his resolve to go full throttle with Jack. In the story, there is no dead sheep. Let me repeat, there is no dead sheep the next morning. There are no bad consequences at all after TS1. Even when Aguirre came up on them being naughty, he waited patiently until they had buttoned up their jeans before he approached them. And another thing, he made a SECOND trip up the mountain to tell Jack that his Uncle hadn't died after all. And he still didn't say anything critical, about the switch in jobs, about the being naughty, or anything. He just gave Jack a "bold stare."

After TS1, Jack boldly went to Ennis on the mountain as his workday was ending. But it was Ennis who set forth the parameters of what they could and couldn't do, could and couldn't say. And Jack readily agreed (in the story Ennis said it during or right after sex, and it was almost a joke). The rest of the summer was Ennis's to own, as he came and went to and from the sheep and Jack, owning the mountain and all on it. Until the day of the hailstorm.
 
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2008, 06:16:52 pm »
The story shows the "tent not looking right" starting with the hailstorm in August. Ennis spent the whole nite with Jack, and the sheep wandered and got tangled up with a foreign herd (what Chilean sheep were doing on Brokeback Mountain, I have no idea). This led to disorientation in Ennis's mind and no amount of work to untangle the sheep could put it right. Thus, Ennis was on pins and needles when he came down from the mountain in mid-August and found Jack packing up. There Jack was, cheerfully tearing down the tent which was all the home Ennis had at that point. He overreacted, as Ennis often did, and even more when Jack playfully lassoed him and knocked him off his feet. The last straw (after Ennis chewed on it) was when Jack accidently kneed him in the nose, causing a nosebleed!! The whole summer unraveled right there on the hill, and Ennis lashed out at Jack. Ennis's primitive need for survival, his fight-or-flight instinct, took over and required him to assert control, physically and emotionally, over Jack. Ennis's last words to Jack were "Well see you around, huh." Around the coffeepot, looking for the handle? Instead he had flown off the handle. Jack's instinct was flight, not fight, and he ended up driving grooves across Texas trying to forget what could not be forgotten.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2008, 06:41:20 pm »
If anyone has a different view on this, I would love to hear about it. In fact, I am somewhat distressed that I am seeing the story this way. What happened to Jack was not Ennis's fault, or anyone's for that matter. I guess it was just destiny. And I am not referring to Jack's death altho that certainly was a tragedy. What I am referring to is that both Jack and Ennis only had Brokeback Mountain in the end. That's all they had, and Jack never got to tell of his love for Ennis.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2008, 07:15:29 pm »
Jack drove away from Ennis looking regretfully at him in his rear-view mirror, just as he had when he first met him. And he stayed away four long years. So, when he finally showed the initiative to make contact with Ennis again, Ennis once again seized control, just like he had in TS1. With wonderment and joy Jack opened his heart to Ennis again. But after a short period of bliss, Ennis began to dictate the parameters of the communication again. He failed to respond to Jack, instead saying, "Me, I don't know..." and then he came right out and said "It ain't gonna be like that" when Jack proposed the little cow-and-calf operation. The rules were that they could get together, once in a while, way the back in the middle of nowhere. And Jack agreed to them. I think Ennis was pleased that Jack was married, had a kid, was 14 hours away. The relationship was fine with Ennis. Ennis was in the process of withdrawing from those he knew so that he could more easily hide his true nature from the world. Alma saw this very clearly. Ennis withdrew sex, socializing, singing. He withdrew by drinking, working weekends, spending more time with his horses. He was no longer a conscientious dad, but was fine with dumping the kids on his wife even while she was still at work!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2008, 11:56:03 pm »
Thanks Front-Ranger!

Your lines are very interesting!

I am puzzled by this you are saying: I think Ennis was pleased that Jack was married, had a kid, was 14 hours away. The relationship was fine with Ennis. Ennis was in the process of withdrawing from those he knew so that he could more easily hide his true nature from the world. Alma saw this very clearly. Ennis withdrew sex, socializing, singing. He withdrew by drinking, working weekends, spending more time with his horses. He was no longer a conscientious dad, but was fine with dumping the kids on his wife even while she was still at work!!



....

Front-Ranger, in many ways, am puzzled by much said in different lines here.

Hugs!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2008, 02:15:32 am »
I am puzzled by it too, Artiste! But I am just telling you what I have experienced and seen, and lived!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2008, 05:55:26 pm »
What changes occur through the movie! Yet they happen so subtly, so gradually, that we are lulled into thinking nothing much is happening. In fact, we may even come away thinking, why couldn't Jack be satisfied over time with the status quo as Ennis laid it out??

But let's look at some of the details more closely. Jack started out being at large and in charge. He was the first to light up his cigarette after leaving Aguirre's trailer, using his lighter rather than a down-scale match. He smoked whole cigarettes, whereas Ennis had to put his cig out partway through and save it for later. Jack had two beer bottles in front of him at the bar, as opposed to Ennis's one. But as early as the bar scene, Ennis was already borrowing Jack's lighter. Later, Jack was out in the cold on the mountain, forbidden by Aguirre from having a fire, looking down on Ennis's "night fire." Jack was also sharing his whiskey with Ennis. In fact, Annie Proulx writes that they had some drinks that were "on shares." (My theory is that Jack brought the whiskey stash up there himself because the employer would be unlikely to provide it and he had learned the year before when surrounded by stinking electrocuted sheep's carcasses how important it was to have whiskey.)

Ennis got bolder and bolder. In fact, when Jack offered him a canteen, he said "Got whiskey or somethun?" Ennis was clearly upset about having to ask for whiskey, so Jack learned to provide it without having to be asked. In fact, Ennis didn't like touching, so instead of passing him the bottle, Jack poured the whiskey in Ennis's coffee cup. Later after the boys were both soused, Jack got bolder and passed the bottle, but he still grasped the neck, giving Ennis plenty of room to grab the bottle without touching his hand.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2008, 06:38:31 pm »
Thanks, Front-Ranger!

Wow, Front-Ranger, you sure detail greatly. I really like your details!! More please...

Jack was infatuated since he had immediately a crush on Ennis when he first say Ennis, in the BM movie... I figure. You think so too?

But the first year Jack worked there, do you think that Jack had booze then? Was he an alcoholic?


So Jack somehow trained Ennis, by being so very careful and training himself not to touch Ennis first few times, so that Ennis would touch him eventually??

Answer any if you like!!

Awaiting you news, and continuation of your story within a story like...

hugs!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2008, 07:00:22 pm »
I really like your details!! More please...

Jack was infatuated since he had immediately a crush on Ennis when he first say Ennis, in the BM movie... I figure. You think so too?

Okay!! You bet!! Yup I agree a hunerd percent. How else would Jack put up with everything unless he was infatuated with Ennis? And, can you blame him? For all his weaknesses and control-freak behaviour, Ennis is eminently and enigmatically enchanting!!

But the first year Jack worked there, do you think that Jack had booze then? Was he an alcoholic?
He was a little young to be an alcoholic but he was certainly on his way to being one! Doesn't he answer the profile of the addictive personality though? Yes, he does.

So Jack somehow trained Ennis, by being so very careful and training himself not to touch Ennis first few times, so that Ennis would touch him eventually??
On the contrary, I think Ennis trained Jack. He told him what he could do and what he could not do. Thru his body language, he dictated even more. How he reacted to Jack's ideas trained Jack even more. You can just see it in Jack's eyes...what can I get away with without setting him off? The way he says, late in the movie, "Well, maybe you should get out of there...maybe go to Texas." And then, realizing that he had stepped into the shoot-em zone, was cutting fence..."I was just thinkin out loud. Go live your own miserable life." And Ennis seemed to be telling him, when he said "You're a real thinker there" not even to THINK about them being together, much less give voice to those thoughts.

hugs!
Thanks, I needed that!!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2008, 07:59:24 pm »
Thanks again Front-Ranger!

So, it was Ennis who trained Jack? In many ways. Was that because, Ennis had right away realized that Jack had an immediate crush on him, at that trailer to get themselves a job from Aguirre??

But, where (from whom) does Ennis get this way to method how to control a man?

Hugs!! Always happy to hug you even when I am presently in dire pain since I moved furniture and am still with broken bones because 4 had beaten me as you know, and always it is great to read your comments, and awaiting your next ones!!


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2008, 12:51:52 pm »
I am presently in dire pain since I moved furniture
Oh, Artiste, I am so sorry to hear that!  :'( You stay off your feet and rest today, please!!

So, it was Ennis who trained Jack? In many ways. Was that because, Ennis had right away realized that Jack had an immediate crush on him, at that trailer to get themselves a job from Aguirre??
No, that would have been manipulative, and I don't think Ennis had that in his nature. Their friendship was like a dance in which fearless Jack made the first step while fearful Ennis pushed back or retreated. But there was another force within Ennis and that was the power of love, the need to connect. Even tho he tried to control and repress it, at times it asserted itself and what a blessing that was for them, and for us!

But, where (from whom) does Ennis get this way to method how to control a man?
Part of it was animal instinct, but he also learned from his father and his brother. One time Jack reflected that "I never figured you to throw a dirty punch" on that last day on the mountain, and Ennis tried to explain it by recalling how his father advised him to beat his brother up at odd times when K. E. was not expecting it. "The lesson was, Don't say nothin and get it over with quick" Ennis said. And then tumbled out the story of Earl and Rich. From his father, Ennis learned how to control others' behavior through force. He didn't do this in a conscious way, and thus when it was time to let his guard down, to let himself loose, he didn't know how to do it. He was either unresponsive and impassive, or he was wildly out of control.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2008, 08:04:14 pm »
Front-Ranger, thanks very much!

You say about Ennis: He was either unresponsive and impassive, or he was wildly out of control.

....

Front-Ranger, may I say to that that Ennis sounds straight, I mean much more heterosexual acting therefore. What do you think?

...
Concerning Earl and Rich, I am concerned since nobody seems to be talking about them. Tell me... please?

Must rush as am fatigued! With a long day, have just few energies to create smile and

hugs to you mon amie!!

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2008, 03:39:27 pm »
Artiste you're as bad as my aunt--stop screwing around with the furniture!!!  Hope you feel better soon...

Earl and Rich are important in that their experience was a primary factor in Ennis unacceptance of his gayness; I mean even Annie Proulx said Ennis was self hating, he could not deal with his 'homo-ness'. This does not make him any less likeable, it makes him even more lovable IMO. he had it so hard, was so incapable of breaking the walls of 'The Box'.

But Jack, I like Jack. Incompetent or not, Jack Twist was great.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2008, 03:59:10 pm »
Thanks brokenbackjack!

I am not screwing my furniture. Got hole in the back if you want to do so! Ha! Ha!

Back to this thread and your comment, of course Jack was maligned unfairly; so were the two gay guys living together, right??


.........
But no one wants to talk about those two!! Except, you but a bit (excuse my butt!!) So, why, why, why?

Hugs!! May gay men be safe!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2008, 04:26:17 pm »
You say about Ennis: He was either unresponsive and impassive, or he was wildly out of control.
...Ennis sounds straight, I mean much more heterosexual acting therefore. What do you think?
Many people straight AND gay are this way. In fact, my mother was like this. She grew up in a home with a lot of sisters and brothers, and wanted to avoid conflict at all costs. Then, whenever she couldn't stand it any more, all the pent-up feelings came out in a rush.

Concerning Earl and Rich, I am concerned since nobody seems to be talking about them. Tell me... please?
I will come over and talk about Earl and Rich on the topic set up for them, I promise. But, for some people, they have trouble talking about it and some can't even watch that scene in the movie!! Can you blame them? It's horrifying!

Hi, Jack!! I know you love your namesake, and thanks for reading/writing!! I am just as Jack-obsessed as ever!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

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Re: Jack was maligned unfairly
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2008, 07:25:40 pm »
Thanks Front-Ranger!

My mother is like yours. Tells me often not to questions anyone! May I say!

........

Concerning your saying: I will come over and talk about Earl and Rich on the topic set up for them, I promise. But, for some people, they have trouble talking about it and some can't even watch that scene in the movie!! Can you blame them? It's horrifying!


...

Front-Ranger, there is such a thread on Earl and Rich already?? Are these the two gay lovers: as Ennis said: two old... birds?? You will see later why I asked you that and from others!!
.......




Hugs!!