Author Topic: What is your religion?  (Read 48299 times)

Offline ednbarby

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What is your religion?
« on: April 20, 2006, 12:20:16 pm »
Just curious as to what our demographics are here as far as religious beliefs.  For the record, I am an atheist.  I was baptised in a Methodist church at 14, mostly to placate my mother and paternal grandmother to whom baptism was very important.  But I was always an agnostic.  I've become an atheist in very recent years only because I can't understand what kind of a God would allow things like the tsunami in Indonesia and Hurricane Katrina, along with various and sundry genocides and hate crimes throughout history, to happen.  Really, I'm a humanist - I believe that we are more than the sum of our parts - that we are tied to one another through our very humanity, and that that common thread is in itself a higher power.
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Offline hermitdave

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 12:55:22 pm »
 I was raised in the Pentecostal church, just like Jack. There was a lot of fire and brimstone preaching. Guilt and inner turmoil were a constant for me growing up. Since BBM I have begun to revisit my past, and hopefully deal with feelings I have kept pushed down for many years. I believe in God, but have a bg problem with organized religion. Groups of people who believe they have a God given right to control  other peoples lives are scary and dangerous. The bible says "Judge not, lest ye be judged". So many "Christians" choose to ignore that verse-in order to spread hatred, discrimination, bigotry, etc., all in the name of God. I believe God lives in the hearts of those who seek him- but couldnt be farther away from those who use his name to further their own hateful agendas. 
"Whenever Im alone with you, you make me feel like I am whole again. Whenever Im alone with you, you make me feel like I am young again." - The Cure

Offline Toast

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 02:41:49 pm »
I think my United Churdh of Canada background gave me a great lesson in respecting other people.  We have few rituals, and few mindless recitations of belief. which is good.
But I call myself a Christer.  (rhymes with meister)
I always ask "what would Jesus say about that?"
I never ask what his disciples or followers would say/do
I NEVER wonder what the Pope would tell me to do.
I would rather listen to someone at the bar about respect than to learn from a church group.
Organized religion is so scary.
I loved reading the DaVinci Code, but hoped for some useful ending to it.
it just died with a whimper, much to my disappointment.

If I had children, I would take them to church, but treat it as another learning experience, and not make them think that God/god approved of all that happened there, anymore than anywhere else.

Beliefs are important, even if you don't have them.

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2006, 09:58:58 pm »
I was always an agnostic.  I've become an atheist in very recent years only because I can't understand what kind of a God would allow things like the tsunami in Indonesia and Hurricane Katrina, along with various and sundry genocides and hate crimes throughout history, to happen.
That's an interesting reason. One answer would be, "an imperfect one". Believers have various answers to the Problem of Evil, but omnibenevolent and omnipotent are really incompatible with the world as we know it.
There are also two kinds of atheist:
  • strong: "(I believe) there are no gods
  • weak: "I have no belief that there are any gods"
but even a strong atheist may say "- but I could be wrong". Absolute faith is the preserve of those with no evidence.

Quote
  Really, I'm a humanist - I believe that we are more than the sum of our parts - that we are tied to one another through our very humanity, and that that common thread is in itself a higher power.
I like that very much. And the essence of our humanity is our ability to love each other, no?

But I still like Tom Paine's "My country is the world, and my religion is doing good."

Offline David

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2006, 10:24:16 pm »
Born and raised Protestant Luthern.    But to be honest, I checked off "Agnostic".

I really question whether there is a god who lets people suffer so much.   

Don't get me wrong.   I am respectful of ALL religions.     But I think most religions were started as a reason for people to pull together in times of need.     But today, it seems that most religions are causing groups of people to separate from the rest of the world.   

Muslims hate.. well, anyone non-Muslim.

The Jews are in perpetual battle with the Palistinians and vice versa.

The Catholics don't want you to marry a Protestant.

Reverend Fred Phelps wants you to hate Fags.

You know, the more I think about it,  there is more hate in the name of religion nowadays than Love. 
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 10:32:20 pm by DavidinHartford »

Offline Lynne

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 11:17:41 pm »
Agnostic for many years...  There's a bumper sticker I like:  'I don't know and neither do you!'  :)

I've had exposure to the wide variety of religions in the Western hemisphere...grandparents were fundamentalists of the snake-handling and speaking-in-tongues variety.  This messed up both of my parents spiritually-speaking - a lot of internal conflict there.  They sent me to Catholic elementary school because of the academics.  I convinced them to go to a Methodist church when I was in Jr/Sr high school, which was more moderate.  My university was Episcopalian, as was my husband and his family, so about 10 years were spent there.

I most closely identify these days with the liberal Friends (Quakers) and attend a meeting once in awhile because it's a long drive for me.  I like them because they focus on the individual's relationship with spirit, there is no dogma, very little hierarchy, and they are tolerant and accepting of people in all their infinite varieties.  They also have a very strong record of promoting social justice, which is extremely important to me.

Here's some info to illustrate...Quakers have a testimony called the Truth testimony.  This is where we get the 'I swear or affirm...' when taking an oath.  Quakers maintain that because they are always called upon to tell the truth, there should not be a special version of truth for official occasions like testifying in court.  During the slavery period, Quakers were very active in the Underground Railroad.  When slave-hunters would come searching, a Quaker would state, 'There are no slaves here,'  which is truth to the Quaker, because in their belief system, no man could be enslaved.  From the earliest days of the Quaker movement, women have held roles equal in the church as men.  And many Quakers were instrumental in working for women's suffrage in the U.S.  Last but not least, most liberal Quaker congregations welcome gays and lesbians and will perform union ceremonies.

Sorry to prattle on and on...
-Lynne
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Offline Ellemeno

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2006, 04:19:09 am »
Thanks L:ynne, 3 of my favorite people are Quakers.  They are different one from another, but have in common that they are respectful listeners - good friends to talk things over with, openminded, good meeting facilitators, and happy.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2006, 06:07:20 am »
I like that very much. And the essence of our humanity is our ability to love each other, no?

But I still like Tom Paine's "My country is the world, and my religion is doing good."

Yes.  And our knowledge of our own mortality.  I think other animals have the ability to love each other.  I've seen it in my dog Layla, who mourned the passing of my other dog Beauty so severely we thought she was going to die of a broken heart.  But only we seem to have foreknowledge that we will not live forever.

I like that Tom Paine quote and this one, from Abraham Lincoln:  "When I do good, I feel good.  When I do bad, I feel bad.  And that is my religion."

I went for a long time believing that there is no way we can know one way or the other whether there is a God.  But now I just think that with all that goes on in the world that's so hateful and ugly and tragic, if there is a God, he is not only imperfect but at best indifferent and at worst wrathful.  I think it's just that I don't want to live in a world made by an indifferent or wrathful God so much that I'd rather believe there isn't one.  That it really is all random.  But I find peace in that - because when something extraordinarily beautiful comes out of randomness, that is the miracle.  I don't need a God to make that happen.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2006, 02:10:14 pm »
I generally don't do polls, but I couldn't resist this one because the topic fascinates me endlessly.

I was born, baptized, raised, and confirmed Lutheran (the old LCA, now the ELCA). No fire and brimstone in my upbringing. The congregation was mainly young families; the pastor's son was my age and president of my class in high school. Much "practical Christianity," with common Lutheran emphases on justification by faith and the sacredness of all vocations. I was interested in the ministry as a possible occupation--until I served a term on church council while I was in college.  ;)

I have never had any kind of "conversion experience." Faith and belief have just always been a part of the structure of my life. One of the most important lessons I ever learned came not in church but from one of my religion professors in college. It was a definition of "faith" not as a belief system but as a living one's life trusting in God. (I took a lot of religion and philosophy electives--interesting subject matter, interesting readings, and no term papers. ...)

As a young adult I did the typical falling away from regular worship. In addition, I had moved to a city that is not strongly Lutheran, and I was loyal to denomination of my upbringing. In the mid 1990s I began to feel a personal need to return to formal worship in my life. A friend invited me to our neighborhood Episcopal parish. I found the liturgy itself and the style of worship not too different from what I had grown up with, so I continued attending. In 1998 I was received into membership--for the very practical reason that I was supporting the parish financially but until I became a member, I couldn't vote for the vestry (the church leadership).

The parish has been a good spiritual home for me. I'm comfortable with the form and style of worship, and the parish has a large gay presence from the leadership levels down, yet it doesn't exist to be a "gay church." So it's a place where I can be who I am at worship without my sexual orientation being an "issue." (I'm speaking about my parish level here, not the larger issues in the Episcopal Church.) Another reason I'm comfortable is Anglicanism's historic acceptance of a wide variety of private personal beliefs. My own personal belief system is almost certainly not orthodox in a Nicene Creed kind of way, but the practice of an historic, mainline Protestant denomination "works" for me because it's how I was raised and part of who I am.

The funny thing is, formal requirements for congregational membership--keeping your name "on the books"--are so minimal these days, that I technically still a member of my home Lutheran church as well. Plus the ELCA and the ECUSA are in full communion with each other, anyway.

Very early on in my Brokeback experience, I noticed something I found very interesting. Despite the tragedy of the film, I would leave the theater with the same peaceful, spiritually uplifted feeling I have when I leave church after receiving Holy Communion.

Lynne--if you read this--I think the Quakers were granted and give the rest of us a valuable insight in the concept of the Inner Light.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2006, 08:39:28 pm »
Quakers sound fascinating.

Neo-pagan reconstructionist here, leaning toward moral relativity.

Was born and baptized in the Methodist Church.  Never had much of personal connection to Christianity.  When they taught us bible stories, I was always more interested in the Egyptian/Greek/Roman cultures.  And I was a feminist from day one.  As a child, I never understood why god would put women here just to have us cover our heads and be obedient to our menfolk just because of original sin and stay 2nd class citizens even though supposedly Christ died to take away that sin.  There was a lot of contradictions going on that I didn't understand.

Then later in life, I met a devout Catholic (well, not too devout considering what we were doing together) and had a brief affair and somewhere in our conversations, he asked if I had faith because *I* believed it or because that was what I was taught or what my family believed.

I didn't take his words to heart, but I did remember them.

Years later, I decided to investigate my Christianity.  To decide for myself if I believed because *I* did.  To research my faith.

No drama, no horrific personal crisis that drove my faith into question, nothing so 'movie of the week'. 

My life was fine as it always had been.

I have degees in the biological and chemical sciences, so I know how to research something with as much objectivity as possible and my love for the truth and facts had me brace myself for whatever I would find.

And what I found was that Christianity's strength - the idea that Christianity differs from all other religions because it was really true, based on real events and facts - wasn't correct.

It was no more 'based in fact' than any modern movie or TV series and was in fact, yet another religion based on faith.

So there was no 'right or true' path, one could be just as good as another, and being a spiritual person and still believing in the spiritual world, I could pursue and worship whomever I felt a connection.

So I returned to my childhood interests, which had always and to this day still fascinate me and have followed that path for nearly 10 years now and have never been happier nor more at peace.




Offline fernly

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2006, 10:49:27 pm »
I was raised in the Presbyterian church and lost my faith when I too couldn't reconcile what happened in the world, nearby or far away, with those tragedies being the result of God's will. Was agnostic/atheist for years, and now...

Humanist in regards to morality.

I clicked pagan because that seems to be the closest.  When I'm hiking in the hills or mountains that's when I feel what apparently I was supposed to feel going to church growing up, and never did -  peace and joy, connectedness, being in the presence of something greater than myself.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 12:03:47 am by fernly »
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2006, 12:10:10 am »
I have a lot of time for the Quakers, and if I were a christian, that's the only kind I could be. Very thoughtful people. I like "Walk cheerfully in the world, seeking that of God in every one." The "Inner Light" is the same thing. (And my grandmother used to quote "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you" and conclude that the kingdom of Hell is too: ie we are rewarded and punished for our deeds by what they do to our selves.)

But in the US, a branch of the Quakers has gone back to conservative christianity, the branch with churches, ordained ministers and set liturgy. That's the branch Nixon belonged to. The branch with meeting houses, every member a minister and silent Meetings for Worship until someone is moved to speak, is the branch I think of as Quaker.

Offline Ray

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2006, 06:06:23 am »
Catholic by splash only.  My favourite religious lesson at school was when Ian McCray stood to read from the bible and read 'blahsomethingblah...go forth, and he came fifth and won a tea pot'.  Never having heard this before I PML so hard I was banned from religion for a month and Ian and I became friends while attending detention over this period.  It was then I realised that Religion really does bring people together.  Now, however I have my own spirituality and it does not involve punishing people for diversity, and it is not based in fear.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 04:56:02 pm by Ray »
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Offline FuzzyChanny

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2006, 09:48:09 am »
I'm Catholic, but my faith is stronger than my religion. I often find myself angry with my church because they can be a bunch of hypocrites (an example is one time my catechism teacher gave us a lesson in which she said "Do not judge other people..." and five lines later said "...But all other religions are wrong, Catholic is the only way").

I try to follow what I believe to be God's teachings through Catholicism but the thing that most often sticks with me is "Do not judge other people".
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2006, 12:28:56 pm »
I have a lot of time for the Quakers, and if I were a christian, that's the only kind I could be. Very thoughtful people. I like "Walk cheerfully in the world, seeking that of God in every one." The "Inner Light" is the same thing. (And my grandmother used to quote "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you" and conclude that the kingdom of Hell is too: ie we are rewarded and punished for our deeds by what they do to our selves.)

But in the US, a branch of the Quakers has gone back to conservative christianity, the branch with churches, ordained ministers and set liturgy. That's the branch Nixon belonged to. The branch with meeting houses, every member a minister and silent Meetings for Worship until someone is moved to speak, is the branch I think of as Quaker.

The Quakers are also very big on the Peace Testimony and social justice.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2006, 01:50:54 pm »
I had no religious upbringing whatsoever, for which I am now thankful. Oh, except I was baptized because everyone else in the family is religious (catholic), and my parents gave in to that.
 I have a real problem with organised churches or cults, and a problem with the idea of there being a god. I have always been an atheist, agnostic at best sometimes, but I picked "Buddhist" because I wanted to say which sort of spirituality I'd be closest to. I have started reading about it, and I love it! Hey, there's no god to bow to, and no judgement of people or actions such as 'this is RIGHT, this is WRONG'; the only criteria is: 'does this make me and others suffer?' If it does, best seems to get to learn how to avoid it, that's 'all'!
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Offline FuzzyChanny

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2006, 02:38:07 pm »
I've been interested in Buddism for a little while, because from what I've heard (I haven't looked into it that much yet) it does agree with a lot of the things I believe in (like Isabelle said, lack of judgement). A friend of mine wants me to go on a buddist retreat with him and I'm excited about it.

I will however, probably, always believe in God (or a God). There has to be something there. And I am often surprised by the beauty of faith.
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2006, 03:09:41 pm »
And DEL, I've been a feminist from day one too. Which is why religions in general make me run away (helter skelter style), because none is really cool with women. Buddhism apart, but it's more a philosophical sort of spirituality than religion. Or else I don't know enough about it yet.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2006, 06:21:27 pm »
I clicked pagan because that seems to be the closest.  When I'm hiking in the hills or mountains that's when I feel what apparently I was supposed to feel going to church growing up, and never did -  peace and joy, connectedness, being in the presence of something greater than myself.

Hmmmmm.  I'm with you on that, Fernly.  I've only ever felt that oneness and reverence alone in nature, myself.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2006, 06:38:23 pm »
Isabelle,

And DEL, I've been a feminist from day one too.  Which is why religions in general make me run away (helter skelter style), because none is really cool with women.

Which is why I went neo-pagan.  Nothing like taking a non-dogmatic ancient religion and bringing it into the 21st century.

Quote
Buddhism apart, but it's more a philosophical sort of spirituality than religion. Or else I don't know enough about it yet.

I read a nasty quote from the Buddha about women once, but I couldn't trace the source, so I can't say if Buddhism is basically good for women or not.

A friend of mine is very feminist as well, brought up in a Catholic school and she shopped around for a religion.  She thought the B'hai B'hai were pretty good, but apparently they were only pro-women on paper and not in actual practice.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 06:40:37 pm by delalluvia »

Offline littledarlin

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2006, 01:23:10 am »
I had no religious upbringing whatsoever, for which I am now thankful. Oh, except I was baptized because everyone else in the family is religious (catholic), and my parents gave in to that.
 I have a real problem with organised churches or cults, and a problem with the idea of there being a god. I have always been an atheist, agnostic at best sometimes, but I picked "Buddhist" because I wanted to say which sort of spirituality I'd be closest to.


wow, isabelle.  we are spiritually identical, it seems.

i identify myself as agnostic, but usually lean towards atheist.  but i do identify with many buddhist ideals, and respect them, and appreciate them, but would never convert or consider practicing rituals.  i live my life trying to be the best person i can be, and that's all i think is expected of us.

i wasn't raised a certain way, although certain family members tried to sway me when i was much younger, but it didn't work.  i've always been turned off by it, even since before i could understand it.  i wasn't baptized either.  my family is part catholic, part protestant, part pseudo-christian, part atheist. 

Quote
She thought the B'hai B'hai were pretty good, but apparently they were only pro-women on paper and not in actual practice.

del, i've heard this as well.  but any religion that was not founded in recent times is most likely anti-feminist.  i'm a feminist myself, and any religion that would in any way consider women a lesser being makes me sick.  buddhism doesn't realy acknowledge women.  i'm not sure how present-day is, but you know, buddha is male, monks are male, so that immediately turns me off.  just the thought that a church would sooner ordain a child molester, as long as he is male, than any woman, is baffling even in these times.  what's more baffling is how widely accepted the practice is, and goes unquestioned..

i also have respect for pagans, as far as religion goes.  i mean nature is all around us.  we are nature.  makes more sense to me than worshipping aliens or supreme beings and then destroying everything they supposedly created in their name...
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2006, 02:24:29 am »
Isabelle,


I read a nasty quote from the Buddha about women once, but I couldn't trace the source, so I can't say if Buddhism is basically good for women or not.

A friend of mine is very feminist as well, brought up in a Catholic school and she shopped around for a religion.  She thought the B'hai B'hai were pretty good, but apparently they were only pro-women on paper and not in actual practice.

To tell the truth, I was expecting to come across something nasty about women from Buddhism, sooner or later! I'll try to research that, or if you find it, please let me know.

And about B'hai B'hai being "pro-women on paper and not in actual practice", well...sounds like a few men I've known! Those who DARED be pro-women, albeit on paper that is!
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2006, 02:40:17 am »

wow, isabelle.  we are spiritually identical, it seems.

i identify myself as agnostic, but usually lean towards atheist.  but i do identify with many buddhist ideals, and respect them, and appreciate them, but would never convert or consider practicing rituals. 


That's right littledarlin, we seem to be identical in several ways (music too). I would never practise rituals either, and I cannot imagine myself converting to anything, religion-wise. I also agree that seeing only males as Buddhist monks was a bad sign, but all I got interested in was the Buddhist outlook on life, NOT the rituals. Now it seems even the Buddha didn't think too high of women either. I think I'll just keep worshipping Brokeback Mountain.

(And I still haven't worked out how to quote/unquote!).
Littledarlin, if on top of all the rest you are a feminist, then... :-* :-* ;D
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 02:48:10 am by isabelle »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2006, 07:28:11 pm »

To tell the truth, I was expecting to come across something nasty about women from Buddhism, sooner or later! I'll try to research that, or if you find it, please let me know.

I can't find my book with the actual quote, but here are some bits:

"The Buddha continually warned his disciples against the sinister guile of women, and women were not allowed in the Sangha.  Indeed it was very difficult for a woman to become a Buddhist during this time.

Later Buddha did allow women to become a part of his followers, but many restrictions were placed on the nuns and they were subject to the authority of the monks at all times.  The Buddha is quoted as saying, "A nun, though she be a hundred years old, must reverence a monk, rise on meeting him, salute him with clasped hands and honor him with her respects, although he may have been received into the order only that day."  Some today argue that the Buddha was only communicating on a level his followers could understand and he went against the male chauvinism in his culture."

"In Sri Lanka, the main faction of the religion that is practiced is Theravada Buddhism, one of the oldest and most traditional of the various sects of Buddhism. In the debate for equality it has proven to be the most stubborn, maintaining its position that women should be subordinate to men. While the Buddha has specifically taught Buddhists that women and men are equal in his or her ability to achieve enlightenment, certain Buddhist texts and prejudices have subordinated women, and in some cases actually prevented them from enlightenment. In its teachings Theravada Buddhism associates women with immorality, defilement, seduction, falsehood and desire. (Shanshan Du, 1) This depiction of women in early Buddhism is partially due to societal viewpoints at the time of the Buddha, and the difficulty priests had with celibacy. Because of this negative perception, women have been hindered in their ability to practice Buddhism at the same level as Buddhist monks. The order of Bhikkhunis (Buddhist nuns), founded by the Buddha, no longer exists in Sri Lanka. This is a tragic occurrence, and women face many challenges trying to restart it."

Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2006, 07:43:15 pm »
Thanks Del. It's the same story over and over again, isn't it? *SIGH*
And if the monks have the obligation to remain celibate (I wasn't 100% sure about that), ok, then that's me. Bye bye Buddhism. Not that I thought of becoming one for real real,  really!
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2006, 07:54:12 pm »
Thanks Del. It's the same story over and over again, isn't it? *SIGH*
And if the monks have the obligation to remain celibate (I wasn't 100% sure about that), ok, then that's me. Bye bye Buddhism. Not that I thought of becoming one for real real,  really!

Yeah, pathetic isn't it?  I don't suggest you read St. Augustine's writings on women on a full stomach lest you lose it.  And these guys are venerated!  You always know when a religion was invented by men. ::)

Offline littledarlin

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2006, 07:57:45 pm »
And if the monks have the obligation to remain celibate (I wasn't 100% sure about that), ok, then that's me. Bye bye Buddhism.

lol amen to that. 

isn't it grand the way society always blames women?  denying women equality because they might tempt men, just their very presence, not counting their actions.  as if women can't be tempted?  as if it is expected of men to not be able to control their urges?  please. 

again, there is no religion that will suit everyone.  i think it's ok to believe certain aspects, but there is no right religion.  we don't need a religion to respect eachother and the world around us, it's called being HUMAN. 
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2006, 08:14:25 pm »

Yeah, pathetic isn't it?  I don't suggest you read St. Augustine's writings on women on a full stomach lest you lose it. 

I HAVE, I HAVE!! Hor-ri-ble! Yes, invented by men indeed (sorry you guys who are not like them, talking to you Andrew :-*)
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2006, 08:27:17 pm »
Quote
isn't it grand the way society always blames women?  denying women equality because they might tempt men, just their very presence, not counting their actions.  as if women can't be tempted?  as if it is expected of men to not be able to control their urges?  please.

Men's urge to control is very evident in religion.  I don't know why that is.  Power I suppose?  That a religion is just a reflection of the patriarchal society and not anything divinely inspired?

One of ironic favorite stories - maybe it's an urban myth, dunno - was when Golda Meir was still a local politician.  There had been a rash of muggings, people getting hurt and so the suggestion was made that there be a curfew for women.  To protect them.

Golda jumped in with a not-so-fast.  Hey, it wasn't women who were doing the mugging.  If there was going to be a curfew, it should be for the men!

Well of course, the idea of a curfew then dropped like a lead balloon.  What?  Men restrict their movement in society?  Unthinkable!    ::)

Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2006, 02:09:32 am »
Golda jumped in with a not-so-fast.  Hey, it wasn't women who were doing the mugging.  If there was going to be a curfew, it should be for the men!

Well of course, the idea of a curfew then dropped like a lead balloon.  What?  Men restrict their movement in society?  Unthinkable!    ::)

I love this story! I am a teacher, and only last week, I had an interesting discussion with some pupils (16-17 year-olds), girls, trying to explain that it was frightening for me to hear them say: 'well yeah, if a girl gets raped and she was walking on her own at night and wearing provocative-looking clothes, then she should have known better'! For once, I managed to remain calm, and tried to lmake them understand that they were ultimately justifying imposing the headscarf and burqa on women. Which shocked them. But in the end it began to dawn on them.
I can't believe that 20-30 years later, we still have this kind of opinion, from GIRLS! But then, at least in France, I think the way women are considered in society is going backwards, not forward. And I am also sorry to say that it is due to the growing presence of Islam here, coupled with a surge of the hard nut Catholics who want to show they are there too and won't leave all the space to the Muslims!
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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2006, 06:30:20 am »
I can't believe that 20-30 years later, we still have this kind of opinion, from GIRLS! But then, at least in France, I think the way women are considered in society is going backwards, not forward. And I am also sorry to say that it is due to the growing presence of Islam here, coupled with a surge of the hard nut Catholics who want to show they are there too and won't leave all the space to the Muslims![/color]

Hi girls, do you mind if I stuck my nose in your conversation?  Being male after all.  I actually vote for women to take over the world.  I'm sick of the mess that men have made of things and I think they've had their turn in the driver's seat.  Basically, I think the vast majority of men are misogynistic on one level or another, and it reflects in all fields of life.  It's not that women aren't allowed in religious hierarchy because they may tempt the men, it's because men see them as inferior.  Since when did it become the men's prerogative to think that?  And why do women let them?  There are more women on the planet then men, so how is it that men dominate?

Ok, before you have to ask, I have this view because I was mostly raised by my mother and three sisters, and between them if there was any chauvinism in me it was beaten out at an early age.  Even though I'm gay and prefer the company of men in all things sexual, for everything else in life give me a woman!  My best friend is a woman and I spend most of my time with them in all things spiritual and social - alas this also probably why I don't get much sex.  <sigh>
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2006, 08:42:58 am »
I can't believe that 20-30 years later, we still have this kind of opinion, from GIRLS! But then, at least in France, I think the way women are considered in society is going backwards, not forward. And I am also sorry to say that it is due to the growing presence of Islam here, coupled with a surge of the hard nut Catholics who want to show they are there too and won't leave all the space to the Muslims![/color]

Hi girls, do you mind if I stuck my nose in your conversation?  Being male after all.  I actually vote for women to take over the world.  I'm sick of the mess that men have made of things and I think they've had their turn in the driver's seat.  Basically, I think the vast majority of men are misogynistic on one level or another, and it reflects in all fields of life.  It's not that women aren't allowed in religious hierarchy because they may tempt the men, it's because men see them as inferior.  Since when did it become the men's prerogative to think that?  And why do women let them?  There are more women on the planet then men, so how is it that men dominate?

Ok, before you have to ask, I have this view because I was mostly raised by my mother and three sisters, and between them if there was any chauvinism in me it was beaten out at an early age.  Even though I'm gay and prefer the company of men in all things sexual, for everything else in life give me a woman!  My best friend is a woman and I spend most of my time with them in all things spiritual and social - alas this also probably why I don't get much sex.  <sigh>

How is it you turn out so well and Tom Cruise turn out so controllling?  Cruise, too, was raised by his mother and sisters and talks about having such 'great resepct' for them.  Then he controls Katie into the ground.

This is a huge topic and I definitely want to say more, but I must rush off to work.

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2006, 09:01:08 am »
How is it you turn out so well and Tom Cruise turn out so controllling?  Cruise, too, was raised by his mother and sisters and talks about having such 'great resepct' for them.  Then he controls Katie into the ground.

Gee, great, I actually have something in common with that twerp?  Having "great respect" is a pretty shallow admision - I have "great respect" for cockroaches and scorpions for being able to survive conditions we couldn't begin to imagine, but that doesn't make them great models to base our lives on.  No I always liked the amazon woman thing: women in charge (I'd sit at your feet adoringly) and all the straight males can do all the work that doesn't require decision making.
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2006, 12:16:58 pm »
I always liked the amazon woman thing: women in charge (I'd sit at your feet adoringly) and all the straight males can do all the work that doesn't require decision making.

Oh Chris, NOW you're talking! I'll say amen to that way of organizing society! ;)
Thanks for your support, Chris. But the question of 'why don't women react/take over, when they are more numerous' is a very long one to discuss, and not sure I have an answer.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2006, 06:15:40 pm »
I've been interested in Buddism for a little while, because from what I've heard (I haven't looked into it that much yet) it does agree with a lot of the things I believe in (like Isabelle said, lack of judgement). A friend of mine wants me to go on a buddist retreat with him and I'm excited about it.

I will however, probably, always believe in God (or a God). There has to be something there. And I am often surprised by the beauty of faith.
I have time for Buddhism, but like all of these, it can be misused. I knew a couple of Buddhists who didn't seem to care for people much. I think they were misapplying the doctrine of non-attachment. To me, non-attachement means not to be selfishly attached to material possessions (becasue all things decay, die, fade away - or get pinched), but that doesn't rule out healhty concern for others.

In the same way, I like the pan-divinity of Hinduism, but not the fatalism that makes social progress unnecessary, or the very material images of the manifestations of the Godhead (though Ganesha is cute and Hanuman is admirable). My man has just been reading the Bhagavad-Gita, and I can never come to terms with its justification for warfare.

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2006, 06:30:15 pm »
I have time for Buddhism, but like all of these, it can be misused. I knew a couple of Buddhists who didn't seem to care for people much. I think they were misapplying the doctrine of non-attachment. To me, non-attachement means not to be selfishly attached to material possessions (becasue all things decay, die, fade away - or get pinched), but that doesn't rule out healhty concern for others.

He he, that's funny getting non-attachment confused with disconnectedness.  Actually non-attachment (craving and aversion) are based on the principle of impermanence, and that desire leads to misery.  Ennis had it right when he said "if you don't got nothing you don't want nothing", although I fear that he took that one a little too far in letting Jack go. :(
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2006, 06:32:21 pm »
My man has just been reading the Bhagavad-Gita, and I can never come to terms with its justification for warfare.

I'd be interested to know what that is, shuggy!
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2006, 08:53:46 pm »
I'M GENERALIZING HORRIBLY.  I UNDERSTAND FULLY THAT ALL MEN ARE NOT LIKE THIS...
I can't believe that 20-30 years later, we still have this kind of opinion, from GIRLS! But then, at least in France, I think the way women are considered in society is going backwards, not forward. And I am also sorry to say that it is due to the growing presence of Islam here, coupled with a surge of the hard nut Catholics who want to show they are there too and won't leave all the space to the Muslims![/color]

Isabelle,

I'm with you in the sinking feeling that in some places, women's rights seems to be marching backwards for every step forward.  I don't know why that is.  Power again, I suppose.  Whenever men feel threatened in society or downtrodden, they always take it out on someone weaker than themselves.  For every woman who wants to be considered a person, her rights recognized, her feelings considered, there is a man who doesn't want the headache and competition of someone else's needs.

It's a lot easier on a person to be a dictator.  He gets his needs met and doesn't really have to worry about anyone elses.  And if he can get religion to back him up, all the better to keep her down.

Almost every single religion on this planet was written by men and -hey whaddaya know! - every god thinks it's a divine thing to keep women in the home and taking care of the kids and a man's needs.

I noticed that when women write religions - modern religions - there is never anything about the gods saying a woman should stay in the home and be subservient if she doesn't want to.

Go figure.

Hiya Aussie,

Quote
It's not that women aren't allowed in religious hierarchy because they may tempt the men, it's because men see them as inferior.  Since when did it become the men's prerogative to think that?

Basically, from what I've discovered, it all comes down to a stupidly immature playground attitude.  A man considers himself superior to a woman because he could beat her up in a fistfight.  Power.  She can be eloquent, intelligent, a problem-solver, etc, but when it comes right down to it, she can't MAKE him do anything he doesn't want to.  She can't enforce her desires and wants.

He can.  Hence, he's the more powerful and thus, superior.

Quote
And why do women let them?  There are more women on the planet then men, so how is it that men dominate?

Mental wiring.  Men think they're dominating.  Women think we're cooperating.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 08:55:27 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2006, 04:27:42 am »
Mental wiring.  Men think they're dominating.  Women think we're cooperating.

Oooh, like this line.  Not sure I get it in a way that I should though.  It's funny that all of the people I look up to spiritually in my life are women.  This has taken many years of paying attention and listening, but all the great "OMG you're right" moments in my life took a female to make me realise them.  I don't even know why, but I think it's got something to do with the fact that (now) I'd rather be happy than right/superior any day.  Maybe that's not that far from your mental wiring line after all?
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Offline YaadPyar

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2006, 08:17:07 am »
Mmmmmmm - I'm just going to have to go with this:  my religion is peace.
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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2006, 02:16:12 pm »
I was born and raised within a Catholic culture (I'm hispanic), but my religious education was quite a mess. On one hand, my Dad is atheist. He says he only believes in anything he can see, smell, hear or touch. On the other my mother, who grew up baptist, doesn't quite believe in God but thinks we all have a spiritual side.

Then, there were my grandparents. My grandpa (my dad's father) was a staunch God believer, but hated the Church and the priests to death. He said his relationship with God was a private matter and the Church had no business in it. He thought priests were a bunch of thieves and the Pope was a mafia boss. My Grandma, however, was an avid church goer and was always blaming it on the devil for anything negative or bad that would happen to her.

My other grandparents (my mom's parents) were a baptist and Church goers. They did everything in their power to get me and my siblings to at least get in the habit of  going to Church every Sunday, but failed miserably.

Then, to make things even more confusing, I went to Catholic school. Don't ask me why. But I had a happy childhood, which, in my opinion, is what really matters.

I guess I'm atheist.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 07:31:59 pm by opinionista »
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2006, 02:59:36 pm »
Hey, I thought this might be the right place for it.
Now BEAR with me if this is totally KNOWN and has been since the birth of the human race round your end! It is not known here (an American friend gave me this):

Religious views of life:

Taoism: Shit happens
Confucianism: Confucius says, shit happens
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit happened before
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah
Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it
Judaïsm: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Atheism: I don't believe this shit
Agnosticism: Is this shit for real?
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Offline FuzzyChanny

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2006, 04:57:58 pm »
Hey, I thought this might be the right place for it.
Now BEAR with me if this is totally KNOWN and has been since the birth of the human race round your end! It is not known here (an American friend gave me this):

Religious views of life:

Taoism: Shit happens
Confucianism: Confucius says, shit happens
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit happened before
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah
Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it
Judaïsm: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Atheism: I don't believe this shit
Agnosticism: Is this shit for real?


My friend has a shirt with those on, but it has a few more that I can't remember. I just remember the last one is:

Rastafarian: Let's smoke this shit!
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2006, 05:00:17 pm »
Hahaha, that's a good one fuzzy, I'll write it down to add to my list.
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Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2006, 05:01:45 am »
  She thought the B'hai B'hai were pretty good, but apparently they were only pro-women on paper and not in actual practice.

Baha'i (only once) are a sect of Islam, founded in the 19th c. Islam considers them heretical because they have prophets after Mohammed, so they have been badly persecuted. Baha'is I have known, both women, were very good people. Baha'i say the role of women is co-equal with that of men, but whether that works out to full equality in practice I don't know.

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2006, 11:32:42 am »
Hey, I thought this might be the right place for it.
Now BEAR with me if this is totally KNOWN and has been since the birth of the human race round your end! It is not known here (an American friend gave me this):

Religious views of life:

Taoism: Shit happens
Confucianism: Confucius says, shit happens
Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit happened before
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah
Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else
Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it
Judaïsm: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Atheism: I don't believe this shit
Agnosticism: Is this shit for real?


My friend has a shirt with those on, but it has a few more that I can't remember. I just remember the last one is:

Rastafarian: Let's smoke this shit!
This all gave me a good chuckle for my Thursday morning! :laugh:

I have a humble addition to submit to the list:

Kashmir Saivism (a radically monist Hindu sect): I and the shit are One.

Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2006, 11:54:27 am »
Thanks moremojo, I love it too!
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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2006, 03:25:56 am »
Hi everybody. I'm new here.  I came here from the troll-plagued IMDb forum.  And I love the fact that the smileys have cowboy hats.

I checked "Protestant", as I am a happy little Episcopalian.



But now I just think that with all that goes on in the world that's so hateful and ugly and tragic, if there is a God, he is not only imperfect but at best indifferent and at worst wrathful.  I think it's just that I don't want to live in a world made by an indifferent or wrathful God so much that I'd rather believe there isn't one.  That it really is all random.  But I find peace in that - because when something extraordinarily beautiful comes out of randomness, that is the miracle.  I don't need a God to make that happen.

You know what, I do believe that "it really is all random" and I still believe in God.  I mean, the only way for God to NOT "allow" crime, murder, rape, hurricane Katrina, etc to happen would mean that God would have to control us like puppets.  I think we have free will, and I think nature has free will, and that's gives the world an element of chaos and randomness that is sometimes scary.  Just my two cents.  Then again, I'm just an ignorant kid and I have plenty of time for my opinions and beliefs to change, but that's what I think at the moment.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2006, 04:15:34 pm »
You know what, I do believe that "it really is all random" and I still believe in God.  I mean, the only way for God to NOT "allow" crime, murder, rape, hurricane Katrina, etc to happen would mean that God would have to control us like puppets.  I think we have free will, and I think nature has free will, and that's gives the world an element of chaos and randomness that is sometimes scary.  Just my two cents.  Then again, I'm just an ignorant kid and I have plenty of time for my opinions and beliefs to change, but that's what I think at the moment.

Honey, I don't think you're the least bit ignorant (I know that's not quite what you meant, but humor me :)).  The fact that you're posting here speaks volumes for your lack of ignorance, actually.  And I don't think what I believe is the only possibility and that everyone else is wrong.  Actually one of my mantras is that anything is possible.  So who am I to say that one thing is more probable and another isn't?  No one has unequivocal proof either way, after all.
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Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2006, 06:29:40 pm »
So who am I to say that one thing is more probable and another isn't?  No one has unequivocal proof either way, after all.

OK, try this one then (again, I hope it's not completely known and has been since the onset of humanity round your end, and I thought this was the right place for it  ::)):

It's official: Jesus was Irish

* He had 12 drinking friends
* He trained as a carpenter to work on the buildings
* He was unemployed
* He lived with his mother till he was 33
* He thought his mother was a virgin
* His mother thought he was God


Found this in Ireland. So it's official: The Irish have humour.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2006, 07:13:12 pm by isabelle »
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Offline ProwlAmongUs

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2006, 06:58:48 pm »
I was raised Baptist, and although Baptists have many distinctions; some are more liberal, while others belong to specific associations; for example, American Baptist, etc.,  all are not kind toward gays. I found the worst to be the fundamentalist/independent sect which take the Bible literally (when it suits them).  I became so consumed by guilt, and later disgust, that I got out while I could still run. Since then, my spiritual life is, sadly, non-existent. Are they are denominations that welcome gays?  Thanks.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2006, 06:58:57 pm »
So who am I to say that one thing is more probable and another isn't?  No one has unequivocal proof either way, after all.

OK, try this one then (again, I hope it's not completely known and has been since the onst of humanity round your end, and I thought this was the right place for it  ::)):

It's official: Jesus was Irish

* He had 12 drinking friends
* He trained as a carpenter to work on the buildings
* He was unemployed
* He lived with his mother till he was 33
* He thought his mother was a virgin
* His mother thought he was God

Found this in Ireland. So it's official: The Irish have humour.

Hey, now - as an Irish American (sort of - by descent, anyway), I resemble these remarks!
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2006, 07:04:04 pm »
I was raised Baptist, and although Baptists have many distinctions; some are more liberal, while others belong to specific associations; for example, American Baptist, etc.,  all are not kind toward gays. I found the worst to be the fundamentalist/independent sect which take the Bible literally (when it suits them).  I became so consumed by guilt, and later disgust, that I got out while I could still run. Since then, my spiritual life is, sadly, non-existent. Are they are denominations that welcome gays?  Thanks.

A gay man I know is an ex-Southern Baptist.  He said the sect his family was in was like that Footloose town - they actually thought dancing was a sin.  He's been attending a Methodist church for a while that welcomes (or that at least doesn't exclude) gays.  But he says he doesn't like it because they always make him feel like he owes them something - more of his money or more of his time than he can give.  A friend of mine in California works at a Unitarian Universalist church whose pastor is a lesbian and that is obviously very welcoming of gays.  Often it's not the denomination but the leadership of the particular church, at least so far as I've heard.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2006, 07:30:40 pm »
Honey, I don't think you're the least bit ignorant (I know that's not quite what you meant, but humor me :)).  The fact that you're posting here speaks volumes for your lack of ignorance, actually.  And I don't think what I believe is the only possibility and that everyone else is wrong.  Actually one of my mantras is that anything is possible.  So who am I to say that one thing is more probable and another isn't?  No one has unequivocal proof either way, after all.

In a very real way, we're all ignorant - it's the point of the word faith.  Back in my religious ed days in high-school, the best lesson I remember actually came from one of the science teachers who said: "as rational beings we know that we came from our parents, they from theirs, and so on.  We talk about evolution as the mechanism that leads to our humanity, and the big bang being the beginning of the universe.  What we find difficult to talk about however is what created the big bang.  That unknown, he said, is God".  Now to a 15 year old this was a real wow experience, and I've always been amazed that so many see science and spirituality as opposite ends of the spectrum when in my mind they are really one and the same.  A famous quote by Albert Einstein was: "There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that do not believe in miracles and those that believe everything is a miracle".

Now the two groups that just amaze the hell out of me (pun intended) are the fundamentalist Christians and the splinter group of "intelligent designers".  The problem with these groups is they feel the need to believe that the Christian Bible is word-for-word literal and true.  When I went to Sunday school it was always talked about the Bible as a book of parables to be used as lessons for life.  So when did it become true exactly, and why does it have to be true in order for the lessons to work?  This to me is the fundamental problem (another pun) with religions generally, and why religion is so inaccessible to most people.  So they have a book that says God hates me because I'm gay?  Well gee, I thought you told me that God made me in his image?  Make up your mind.  Strangely, I don't feel like God hates me.  I wonder what's in it for these people to say that he does?

I find it sad that religion hasn't really progress much past the inquisition days.  All this hatred and condemnation and accusations about how others live their lives on a day to day basis just snaps my brain, being the exact opposite of all religious texts in the first place.  Religion and religious doctrine is the creation of humans, and in my mind, the most evil thing that humans have come up with.  This is what John Lennon meant when he suggested "imagine... no religion too".  I dream of a day without religion, where all people take personal responsibility for everything they do, and none for everyone else.  Once this happens, and only then, will religion have served its purpose.

My religion: Believe in a higher power, but not in organized religion of any kind
« Last Edit: April 29, 2006, 04:38:18 am by Aussie Chris »
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slayers_creek_oth

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2006, 07:38:55 pm »
Born into a conservative Catholic family....not real active but I guess I'm Catholic...

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2006, 12:53:00 am »
 
Why does it have to be true in order for the lessons to work? 



Exactly.  Luckily I have a pretty liberal New Testament professor (I'm a religion major in college) and he said something very much like that.

I guess I'm just way too sensitive about stuff, but I hate the bad rap that religion has in our culture today.  I hate the way Christian fundamentalists pervert it to suit their own agenda, and I hate the way a lot of people end up getting the message that all religion or all Christianity is unaccepting and wrathful and end up being turned off of it completely. 

I know I'm not the only liberal gay-affirming Christian in the world, but sometimes I feel like I am because of the way the "Religious Right" is so prevalent and they act like they are representatives of all Christianity... shit it pisses me off.

But I can only hope that, since I intend to go into the priesthood and to continue working for the gay rights movement (I'm the secretary of my college's GLBT organization), maybe my life will make some small contribution towards making this a better world for gay Christians and indeed for all gay people, be they people of faith or not.

Haha sorry.  Done ranting. LOL.
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Offline Kea

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2006, 01:10:14 am »
Oh I dont know which box to tick.....

I am Roman Catholic ...raised so and I hold the beliefs now...spent time in the pursuit of a religious life part trained by an Italian  order plus the Franciscans  and Benedictines...

they thought me lots about theology, philosophy, ethics and human rights...not as closed minded as alot of people think...

the close minded ones are just louder...

But I also practice Zen Buddhism....been vegetarian all my life...and hold the issue of the rights and regard for all living creatures very close to my heart....

so I would say....Catholic Zen Buddhist..... ::) ::) ::)

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2006, 01:22:29 am »

Back in my religious ed days in high-school, the best lesson I remember came from one of the science teachers who said: "as rational beings we know that we came from our parents, they from theirs, and so on.  We talk about evolution as the mechanism that leads to our humanity, and the big bang being the beginning of the universe.  What we find difficult to talk about however is what created the big bang.  That unknown, he said, is God".  Now to a 15 year old was a real wow experience, and I've always been amazed that so many see science and spirituality as opposite ends of the spectrum when in my mind they are really one and the same.  A famous quote by Albert Einstein was: "There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that do not believe in miracles and those that believe everything is a miracle".

Great post Aussie!

My favorite quote by one of my college professors (atheist) kinda goes against your science teacher's.

"Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it. But if they called everything divine which they do not understand, why, there would be no end of divine things."

-- Hippocrates

Offline iheartBBM

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2006, 01:32:00 am »


"Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it. But if they called everything divine which they do not understand, why, there would be no end of divine things."

-- Hippocrates

Unfortunately, I think the opposite of this is what happens these days... people call everything "sinful" which they do not understand.
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Offline FuzzyChanny

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2006, 05:56:55 am »
Aussie Chris, that was a really brilliant post!

Now the two groups that just amaze the hell out of me (pun intended) are the fundamentalist Christians and the splinter group of "intelligent designers".  The problem with these groups is they feel the need to believe that the Christian Bible is word-for-word literal and true.  When I went to Sunday school it was always talked about the Bible as a book of parables to be used as lessons for life.  So when did it become true exactly, and why does it have to be true in order for the lessons to work?  This to me is the fundamental problem (another pun) with religions generally, and why religion is so inaccessible to most people.  So they have a book that says God hates me because I'm gay?  Well gee, I thought you told me that God made me in his image?  Make up your mind.  Strangely, I don't feel like God hates me.  I wonder what's in it for these people to say that he does?

What bugs me is the translation of the book, both into other languages from Ancient Greek and into it's meanings. Like any good piece of literature, a story can be taken to mean different things in different ways. So therefore, I believe the bible to mean something different to every person (with the basic outline remaining in tact) but the church only want you to believe it the way they have deciphered it. Once again judging...
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2006, 07:40:18 am »
Beautiful posts, everyone.  Chris, I'm in that group of people who believes everything is a miracle.  I do believe in a higher power in a sense - I worship the sun.  And I don't mean I'm working on a tan.  I mean I worship the fact that we are where we are in relation to that sun in the first place - it's what has made all things possible on this planet.  Nature is my God.  And Science is what I use to talk to her.  I loved what you said about the text not having to be true in order to impart its lessons, too.  And I think I know why some people have to believe it's true in order to make sense of their world.  Because they are afraid.  To die.  So afraid of it that they've forgotten how to live.  That's how organized religion gets its followers - by dangling the promise of immortality in front of the masses.  I find fundamentalist Christians to be using their religion as a justification for judging others.  And I think they need to judge others because it makes them feel better about their sorry-ass existences.  There's a line in a Linkin Park song that goes like this:  "You think having the upper hand means you gotta keep putting me down."  That pretty much nails it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2006, 08:42:55 am by ednbarby »
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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2006, 01:15:06 pm »
Because of I know the "official" history of those who "believe in the Pentecost" like Jack Twist's mother did and the fact that Roberta Maxwell, who portrayed her in the movie, said that Mrs. John C. Twist, Sr. was Pentecostal, I chose an alternate answer which was "Non-organized Christian."

Pentecostal churches, independent congregations, semi-non-denomination and denominational ones, are not historically speaking Protestant churches.

According to Catholic and Protestant denominational histories, for a church to be officially a Protestant Church, it has to have split from the Roman Catholic Church AND have Martin Luther in its official history.

None of the Pentecostal Churches, referred to either as denominations or fellowships which began 100 years ago, are a split from any particular denomination, not the RCC nor any Protestant Church.

The United Pentecostal Church, an non-trinitarian doctrine denomination, does have in its history people who split from the Assemblies of God Fellowship which is Trinitarian in doctrine.

This year is the 100th anniversary of the Azusa Street revivals which took place in Los Angeles.
You can read some about it here at this link. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week935/cover.html
The offical website is here: http://www.azusastreet100.net/

The General Council of the Assemblies of God (AG) which has the Azusa Street meetings in its history can be found here. http://ag.org/top/


Annie Proulx does not have Jack Twist even discuss "The Pentecost" in her original story. Unlike what is said in the movie, and using my own experiences here and if he were an actual person, Jack Twist more than likely told Ennis Del Mar what the Pentecost was if his mother was actually Pentecostal, even if his father did not attend church regularly.

Since the movie's Ennis Del Mar stated that his "folks were Methodist," I believe that Ennis might have known a little bit about what "the Pentecost" meant, too; because the Methodists, like most Protestant denominations, have a "Pentecost Sunday" every year.

In the book, what is in the following quote is the only thing connected with any kind of religious belief.

Quote
Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to "Strawberry Roan." Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.

I know that I made this a little long here. Although I am Pentecostal by experience and my basic doctrinal beliefs are very much like the Assemblies of God's "16 Fundamental Truths," and I grew up attending regular church services and special services, I prefer to say that "I was raised AT home and not in a church." The only people that I have known who were raised in a church were those who actually lived in one while growing up. My Parents were Pentecostal by experience, too. But, they did not demand that their children believe just like them. They taught us to make our own choices and believe according to what we felt the Holy Spirit wanted us to believe. 

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2006, 01:47:15 pm »
From my previous posting:

Quote
Annie Proulx does not have Jack Twist even discuss "The Pentecost" in her original story. Unlike what is said in the movie, and using my own experiences here and if he were an actual person, Jack Twist more than likely told Ennis Del Mar what the Pentecost was if his mother was actually Pentecostal, even if his father did not attend church regularly.

When I was in the 4th and 5th grades, my father pastored Washington Community Assemby of God in rural Rogers County to the NE of Claremore, Oklahoma. His younger brother attended a "Free Holiness Church," which was not quite a denominational church but loosely connected with other Free Holiness Churches. Uncle Raymond's brother-in-law was the pastor of that church. Many of those who attended a Free Holiness Church in rural Oklahoma believed that one only had to go to school as required by the law which said school attendance until age 16. Some of them even thought the King James Version of the Bible was the only one God authorized for Christians to read.

In those Pentecostal churches, even when the husband did not attend church, except maybe on special occasions, his wife attended almost every service and if they had children, their children went to Sunday morning church which was both Sunday School and congregational worship afterwards. One learned about the Pentecost and what it meant to be Pentecostal in Sunday School.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2006, 01:59:38 pm »
Quote
Anni Many of those who attended a Free Holiness Church in rural Oklahoma believed that one only had to go to school as required by the law which said school attendance until age 16. Some of them even thought the King James Version of the Bible was the only one God authorized for Christians to read.

The Amish also do not believe in higher education.  Their children are only educated to the age of what is required by law.

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2006, 02:14:14 pm »
Quote
Anni Many of those who attended a Free Holiness Church in rural Oklahoma believed that one only had to go to school as required by the law which said school attendance until age 16. Some of them even thought the King James Version of the Bible was the only one God authorized for Christians to read.

The Amish also do not believe in higher education.  Their children are only educated to the age of what is required by law.

I know about the Amish because we have them in Oklahoma. Mixed among the Amish are people who are Mennonites who have a similar doctrine but, Mennonites are not anti-education. I went to college with Mennoites whom I had known in grade school, too.

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2006, 09:39:07 pm »
Beautiful posts, everyone.  Chris, I'm in that group of people who believes everything is a miracle.

Me too Barb, and thanks everyone for the nice compliments.  I'm totally cool with your sun/nature worship.  You know I've always seen spirituality as a higher ideal than religion.  Simply put, spirituality is the connection with the divine.  Religion is a human creation, and although *should* lead to spirituality, the fact that it is caught up in the human condition (interpreted and dictated) means that it will also always be one step below.  When I was a little younger I asked myself "was religion really such a bad thing"?  I mean, can I really condemn a philosophy that teaches people (or tries to) to be nice to each other?  Of course the answer is no.  The problem is with people not with religion, but I worry a lot about the people in the role of priest (or whatever).  What is the spiritual qualification for this role?  Do they need to be "good people", or do we assume they are because they learn scripture?  I tell ya, the only people that I listen to about life/love are the ones that are better at it than I am, which pretty much eliminates anyone who would try to tell me how to live/love.

I know that I made this a little long here. Although I am Pentecostal by experience and my basic doctrinal beliefs are very much like the Assemblies of God's "16 Fundamental Truths," and I grew up attending regular church services and special services, I prefer to say that "I was raised AT home and not in a church." The only people that I have known who were raised in a church were those who actually lived in one while growing up. My Parents were Pentecostal by experience, too. But, they did not demand that their children believe just like them. They taught us to make our own choices and believe according to what we felt the Holy Spirit wanted us to believe. 

Hi TJ, just a quick acknowledgement for your posts, and respect for your beliefs and experience.  The one thing that I would add for you to what I've said in my previous posts is that if your faith and doctrine brings you closer to spirit, then it does it for me also.  Take care, be happy, and peace.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

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"You ask for a profession of faith?"
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2006, 09:16:58 pm »
I have not yet responded to the poll (thinking that "other" probably would suit me best), but in the meantime I would like to share an inspiring passage, quite dear to me, from the Sufi master Ibn al-Arabi, who lived from 1165 to 1240. This passage, which I quote from memory (and whose translator, from the original Arabic, I cannot remember), poetically evokes some of my own spiritual views:

You ask for a profession of faith?
My heart encompasses many forms
The mosque,
    The church,
        The synagogue,
            Even idolater's fane
All shelter within me.
Wherever Love's caravan winds its way--
     There lies my path, my religion.

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:11:55 pm by moremojo »

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: "You ask for a profession of faith?"
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2006, 11:50:58 pm »
You ask for a profession of faith?
My heart encompasses many forms...

That's really beautiful Scott, I can really identify with the sentiment.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2006, 01:15:41 pm »
Here is a link to a discussion thread where I was asked to to talk about Jack's Mother who believed in the Pentecost by one of the forum moderators who had first discussed the idea of such a topic with another moderator.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1162.0

It is a discussion for and by those who understand and accept the Pentecostal POV as related to their own experiences.

To be Pentecostal is not actually a church denomination, it is a special experience not limited to any one Christian denomination. Besides, during the 1st Century AD, all the churches were Pentecostal ones.

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2006, 04:47:39 am »
The Amish also do not believe in higher education.  Their children are only educated to the age of what is required by law.


I know about the Amish because we have them in Oklahoma. Mixed among the Amish are people who are Mennonites who have a similar doctrine but, Mennonites are not anti-education. I went to college with Mennoites whom I had known in grade school, too.
I have a lovely book about the fundies by a gay man with an Amish background. In the last chapter he goes back to them and finds they are much more tolerant than the Fallwell crowd. It's at home and I'm at my man's place, but I'll post its details tomorrow.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2006, 07:42:16 pm »
I have a lovely book about the fundies by a gay man with an Amish background. In the last chapter he goes back to them and finds they are much more tolerant than the Fallwell crowd. It's at home and I'm at my man's place, but I'll post its details tomorrow.

Shugs,

Name of the book?  Sounds interesting.

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2006, 11:37:54 pm »
Sorry, I forgot I'd promised this. It's "God's Bullies" by Perry Deane Young, 1982, Holt, Reinhart and Winston, NY, ISBN 0-03-059206-4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0030597064/qid=1148009141/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8302016-5742356?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 at Amazon.com.

It has an interesting section in the middle about Terry Dolan, head of the National Conservative Political Action Committee - first about Young trying to pin him down on homosexuality, then a second account by a (named) man who had sex with him.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 11:42:36 pm by Shuggy »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2006, 12:40:45 am »
Sorry, I forgot I'd promised this. It's "God's Bullies" by Perry Deane Young, 1982, Holt, Reinhart and Winston, NY, ISBN 0-03-059206-4 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0030597064/qid=1148009141/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8302016-5742356?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 at Amazon.com.

It has an interesting section in the middle about Terry Dolan, head of the National Conservative Political Action Committee - first about Young trying to pin him down on homosexuality, then a second account by a (named) man who had sex with him.

 :o :o :o :o Sex with Terry Dolan??!?

Dang, no one's reviewed the book on Amazon.  Off to google it!

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2006, 03:01:54 am »

Offline Rayn

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2006, 11:42:50 am »
"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha!"   (Zen Saying)


For the record, I was raised Roman Catholic, educated in RC schools and university.  But the RC tradition was my parents choice of faiths, so I left their path to wander a long while studying & experiencing other religions to establish my own choice. 

I now practice Tibetan Buddhism and know about other sects of Buddhism, but I still see the wonder and miraculous teaching of Jesus as true and good.  If you want to "pigeon hole" me, you coud place me in the Unitarian Universalist Church. I am open to the many ways the Divine manifests in the human mind-heart. 

I believe in the perfectly compassionate, all knowing, all forgiving Buddha Mind which lives in every human being.   In some, it is perfectly clear and visible, in others less clear, less visible and there are those in whom it is not clear at all, but is buried by layers of bad karma and delusion.  We are all at different stages of spiritual development. 

That 's why the world is such a mess and why, at the same time, it is perfect.     

LOL
   
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 11:54:54 am by Rayn »

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2006, 05:05:48 pm »


That is absolutely brilliant Vickie!  Where did you get that?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 07:23:18 pm by delalluvia »

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2006, 05:24:28 pm »

Offline isabelle

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2006, 05:36:59 pm »
Yes Vick please tell us; I've been trying to save it and can't. I only get one pic.
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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2006, 02:48:58 am »
I was an agnostic till the last national election, then became an athiest for a while (really dub reason), and now I'm beginning to see Bodhisattvas everywhere...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2006, 06:42:51 am »
Yes Vick please tell us; I've been trying to save it and can't. I only get one pic.
It's an animated gif (gif87). If you open it using Internet Explorer, it should animate, but if you use most still imaging software it won't. I played with them quite a lot a few years ago. When I can work out how to make them appear in the message field (and hence work) I'll post some.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 06:49:04 am by Shuggy »

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2006, 06:55:11 am »
I give up. How's it done? Does it involve the [ img ] and [ /img ] markers?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2006, 07:04:30 am by Shuggy »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2006, 01:30:13 pm »
I give up. How's it done? Does it involve the [ img ] and [ /img ] markers?

What you do is right-click on the image, select "Properties," copy the URL (address) in the box that displays from beginning to end (highlight it, then right-click, then click "Copy"), then paste (right-click and click "Paste) it into the message text of your post between [ img ] and [ /img ] minus the spaces inside the brackets.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 02:50:04 pm by ednbarby »
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tiawahcowboy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2006, 05:16:33 pm »


No need to repeat the original .gif image; but, that reminded me of a "Christian" neighbor who believes that it says in Leviticus that homosexualiy is an "abomination."

I asked her, "What about the OT law where women are not supposed go out in public when they are having their monthly period?

Leviticus 20:18 - If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people.

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2006, 05:52:58 am »
What you do is right-click on the image, select "Properties," copy the URL (address) in the box that displays from beginning to end (highlight it, then right-click, then click "Copy"), then paste (right-click and click "Paste) it into the message text of your post between [ img ] and [ /img ] minus the spaces inside the brackets.


So it has to be up on the WWeb somewhere? What if it's in my computer? Must I make it an attachment at the end of my message?

vkm91941

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2006, 06:04:41 am »
So it has to be up on the WWeb somewhere? What if it's in my computer? Must I make it an attachment at the end of my message?

I up loaded it off my computer into Photobucket.  Then posted it here.  Photobucket does all the [ img ] [/img] stuff for you you just copy and paste.  The original gif was posted on the BBM board on the IMDB so I brought it over here for our enjoyment before the trolls got it deleted.  ;)  If you want to save it you have to save it as .gif, not jpeg in order to get the full effect.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2006, 06:08:29 am by vkm91941 »

Offline henrypie

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2006, 05:50:26 pm »
I answered "other."

Strong atheist till age 20 -- went to Oxford and fell in love (I mean with a person -- but secondarily with the city of course) -- not coincidentally I'm sure, I had a powerful realization of what it meant to believe... at least for me... and felt that I had entered a jeweled chamber which I had only ever been able to see from the outside.  It was unutterably, achingly lovely.  I was an enthusiastic Christian (Episcopal-Lutheran; nothing else looks or sounds as appetizing to me) for a few years; now I'm a jaded, smart-alecky paid singer in the very church in which I was baptized almost ten years ago and I still take communion, and pray for forgiveness from ?? for my hypocrisy as my faith crumbles and I'm not working to put it back together -- just letting the feelings come through me as they will.

A big part of the reason I take communion is because, while I trust it would be okay with the pastor if I stopped, I would feel acutely uncomfortable.  A lot of people for whom I am a beacon, a guide, would have question marks in their thought-bubbles, and that would be a distraction from what I do, which is make music.  Eventually maybe I'll think of it as out-and-out acting, in the theatrical event that is Sunday morning, and Wednesday evenings as it happens.

My faith has been downgraded to hope.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2006, 02:38:10 pm »
Hey henrypie, when I somehow find myself in some sort of communion-celebrating church, which is rare, I am happy to walk up there  with my little hands folded just so and receive it.  It's just so communal.  Just because I don't believe that it's somebody's body and blood, I think it's still okay for me to do.  (And really, if people really believe it IS the body and blood of Christ, why the hell are they putting it in their mouths and swallowing it?  Ugh.)

I love the parts in church when we get to say stuff like, "And also with you," and try to ignore the glorification of the gory stuff.  But I only seem to get to a church once or twice a year, usually for someone's special event.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2006, 08:06:06 pm »
Hey henrypie, when I somehow find myself in some sort of communion-celebrating church, which is rare, I am happy to walk up there  with my little hands folded just so and receive it.  It's just so communal.  Just because I don't believe that it's somebody's body and blood, I think it's still okay for me to do.

Oh, I don't.  Communion is holy, a sacrament and supposed to mean something very deeply spiritual - asking the god for forgiveness, actually experiencing a miracle inside your body, washing away of sin, etc.

If I don't worship or honor their god, I can't bring myself to participate so I just sit it out.

Quote
(And really, if people really believe it IS the body and blood of Christ, why the hell are they putting it in their mouths and swallowing it?  Ugh.)

It transmorgrifies or whatever inside their bodies.  Yeah, the literal idea of what's supposed to happen is yucky.  As a young Catholic relative of mine said, "Yeah I take the Lord Jesus into my body.  But I poop him out, too."  O0

Offline henrypie

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2006, 12:42:01 pm »
That's transubstantiate, dela, not transmogrify.  Hee hee.

I had a weird experience in the eighth grade with my science teacher whom I worshipped.  I had recently heard of transubstantiation and asked him, thinking it must be a now-debunked notion like alchemy, if it were "still believed in."  He said "Absolutely.  I believe in it."

About ten years later he was fired for inappropriate behavior with a student.
Of course he was!

Giancarlo

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2006, 01:57:56 pm »
I'm a definite atheist. Recently my atheism has strengthened after seeing the relentless attacks by conservative fundamentalists and seeing how they don't have a point.

gattaca

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2006, 02:10:44 pm »
Agnostic (see my tagline). :)

Offline nakymaton

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2006, 02:14:07 pm »
I love that tagline, by the way, gattaca.   ;D
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2006, 07:32:27 pm »
That's transubstantiate, dela, not transmogrify.  Hee hee.

It was SOME big word.  ;D

Offline Shuggy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2006, 07:35:54 pm »
Oh, I don't.  Communion is holy, a sacrament and supposed to mean something very deeply spiritual - asking the god for forgiveness, actually experiencing a miracle inside your body, washing away of sin, etc.

If I don't worship or honor their god, I can't bring myself to participate so I just sit it out.
I used to take communion at our gay services, understanding that it was communion with everyone there and with those we were thinking of. Earlier, when I felt closer to christianity, I actually took communion (twice) according to the rite of the Church of South India, relying heavily on the line "We are the body of Christ".

Quote
It transmorgrifies or whatever inside their bodies.  Yeah, the literal idea of what's supposed to happen is yucky.  As a young Catholic relative of mine said, "Yeah I take the Lord Jesus into my body.  But I poop him out, too." 

My mother gave up Prebyterianism when she was told about communion. She just found the idea of eating Jesus - no matter how symbolically - utterly repugnant. (Her father had also had his first depressive breakdown, and therefore she decided, there was no god. It's 90 years ago now and she's dead 20 years, so I guess it can be told.)

Transmogrifies/"Transubstantiates"/"Transsignificates" (Transsignifies?) The Catholic church used to teach that the bread and wine literally, physically and in every other way turned into flesh and blood. When that became untenable (and repugnant) they fell back on a very Aristotelian idea that its essence (real spiritual nature) became flesh and blood while its accidents (external appearance and physical attributes) stayed bread and wine. They seem to have retreated from that one now (since it more and more seems just word-play) to "transsignification" which is almost a New Age "your reality / my reality" "In my universe it's really body and blood" kind of "it is but it isn't". Have your cake and eat it too, eh? And all in order to make "This is my body, ... this is my blood" true in some sense.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #94 on: June 19, 2006, 12:56:42 am »
I am a cradle Catholic (baptized  Catholic at birth). I have remained Catholic all my life, but I no longer attend Mass.... for obvious reasons. :(
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Offline Katie77

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2006, 02:42:13 am »
Christened Church of England...but prefer to live by my own standards and morals....

Am sick of the hypocracy of the church.........
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Offline TexRob

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What is your religion?
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2006, 11:10:30 pm »
I don't have a religion, but since everyone needs an integrated view of existence to guide them, I define my worldview as "naturalistic humanism."  For me, human beings should be the basis of ethical considerations.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #97 on: July 05, 2006, 08:39:55 am »
I don't have a religion, but since everyone needs an integrated view of existence to guide them, I define my worldview as "naturalistic humanism."  For me, human beings should be the basis of ethical considerations.

Very nicely said.  I feel the same way.
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Offline Amber

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2006, 03:54:30 pm »
I'm a Catholic - borned, raised and confirmed.  However ... I'm also pro-choice, believe VERY strongly in gay marriage, and am a hard core liberal democrat.  Apparently I don't fit much of the "catholic" label.  I do attend mass occassionally - mostly because I find it a peaceful hour of my life where I feel fully relaxed ... unless they are talking about money or marriage during the homily *lol*  In my opinion people just need to find what works for them - churches and religions aren't for everyone and that is fine by me ... but it's what works for me and so I let it be.
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Offline TexRob

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What is your religion?
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2006, 11:06:46 pm »
Very nicely said.  I feel the same way.

Thanks, ednbarby.  I think by looking at the story of Jack and Ennis in this light, it helps a little better to see that they did not get what they had a right to.  This way of looking at the world seems like the most practical way to sort through life's issues.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 11:21:31 pm by TexRob »

Offline JT

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2006, 12:39:32 pm »
I was born a Catholic but by 18 yo, I became an Athiest.  My mind understands logic and science more than religions, but I have no problems with anyone else'a believes as long as they can grasp the concept of "equal rights for everyone".

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2006, 01:22:10 pm »
I'm a Catholic - borned, raised and confirmed.  However ... I'm also pro-choice, believe VERY strongly in gay marriage, and am a hard core liberal democrat.  Apparently I don't fit much of the "catholic" label.  I do attend mass occassionally - mostly because I find it a peaceful hour of my life where I feel fully relaxed ... unless they are talking about money or marriage during the homily *lol*  In my opinion people just need to find what works for them - churches and religions aren't for everyone and that is fine by me ... but it's what works for me and so I let it be.

Not picking on Amber or anything, but this post raised a question.  For those who still consider themselves Catholic/Jewish/Luthern or whatever but have radically differing views of how things are and should be, how do you reconcile your worldview as it is with your religion's dogma on how it's supposed to be?

Some religions have very strict rules about what it means to be a member (Muslim/Catholic etc) so to my mind, if my ideas differ from what my religion says they must be, I don't consider myself 'one of them'.  That's why I left Christianity behind.  I couldn't rightly call myself one if I no longer 'followed the member rules' so to speak.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2006, 05:54:31 pm »
Not picking on Amber or anything, but this post raised a question.  For those who still consider themselves Catholic/Jewish/Luthern or whatever but have radically differing views of how things are and should be, how do you reconcile your worldview as it is with your religion's dogma on how it's supposed to be?

Some religions have very strict rules about what it means to be a member (Muslim/Catholic etc) so to my mind, if my ideas differ from what my religion says they must be, I don't consider myself 'one of them'.  That's why I left Christianity behind.  I couldn't rightly call myself one if I no longer 'followed the member rules' so to speak.

This is the whole reason I no longer attend Mass. I was baptized Catholic at birth, Confirmed in 6th grade, attended Catholic grade school.... everything. But recently I realized that not only do I not agree with much my faith (and Christianity) teaches, I am not really welcome there either. So I stopped going to church. It's sad and pathetic. But apparently this is the way they want it, and I was only more than happy to oblige them.   >:(

But I agree with you Delalluvia. The church cannot have it both ways, and neither can we. At some point we must draw some lines.
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vkm91941

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2006, 01:23:23 am »
Not picking on Amber or anything, but this post raised a question.  For those who still consider themselves Catholic/Jewish/Luthern or whatever but have radically differing views of how things are and should be, how do you reconcile your worldview as it is with your religion's dogma on how it's supposed to be?

Some religions have very strict rules about what it means to be a member (Muslim/Catholic etc) so to my mind, if my ideas differ from what my religion says they must be, I don't consider myself 'one of them'.  That's why I left Christianity behind.  I couldn't rightly call myself one if I no longer 'followed the member rules' so to speak.

Well Del...My Grandfather was a Pentecostal Preacher.  He traveled all over Southern Virginia and North Carolina doing tent revivals during the Depression when he wasn’t working the docks in Norfolk as a long shore man to support his wife and 7 children, of which my Mother was the youngest.  My Mother defied and balked at the strictness of the Pentecostal way and when she married my Father, a Roman Catholic, they made the decision to baptize their children in the Lutheran Church as a compromise.  However being military brats and living in many different places in the world, over the years we attended whatever church was available and consequently my brothers and I now find ourselves to be rather ecumenical in our theological outlook.

I am and always have been a person of faith. But this is a faith that I have arrived at in my own way, it is based on love, a faith I have a certain amount of gut feeling about because of the deductions that have lead me to it. It is my faith and it works for me, and probably for no one else. But it serves as my myth - my story about myself and my relation to the world. It is as good and righteous as any other faith I know. Does that make me a heretic? I don’t know.  Probably as few as 300 hundred years ago I would have been burned at the stake.

I found my home in the Episcopal Church.  First because they are more tolerant than a lot of other Christian denominations I have encountered, second they invite the faithful to use the brains that God in his wisdom gave us all.  They encourage you to THINK, to REASON, to QUESTION.  This is at the heart of my personal faith experience and they are not threatened by it. My questioning does not break down their faith.  It was like coming home for me.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2006, 02:04:55 am »
Victoria, I have heard many good things about the Episcopal/Anglican church. If I was ever to ever to attend church again, the Episcopal Church would probably be the church I would attend. For two reasons:

1. It is very close to the Catholic church (from what I understand). I have attended some Anglican Masses before and they are very close to the liturgical structure of the Catholic church.

2. They are more accepting of gay people than my religion (the Roman Catholic Church) is.

However...

It seems that nearly (if not all) Christian religions teach of a vengeful God. A judgemental God. My God is not like this. My God is a God of Love. My God tells me in my heart that it is good to love others and accept others. My God says that it is not only okay, but good to love another human being.. no matter who he or she is. My God teaches me that love is never wrong. My God tells me that I am a good person, and He loves me because He created me. My God always loves me, and He always encourages me to try to be a better person. My God believes in me... and He believes in you.

Yes, I believe in Hell. But I don't believe a person goes there for loving another person. People go to Hell because THEY want to. They go there because they do not love God. They CHOOSE to go there. They NEVER go to Hell because of love. It is unfortunate Christianity disagrees with my God and what He speaks to me in my heart each and every day. My God loves His Creation, and He believes in them....  He believes in us. He believes in us all. And He will NEVER give up on us.

I wish Christians would only understand and accept this. And I cannot attend a church that tells me otherwise.
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vkm91941

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2006, 02:30:40 am »
Victoria, I have heard many good things about the Episcopal/Anglican church. If I was ever to ever to attend church again, the Episcopal Church would probably be the church I would attend. For two reasons:

1. It is very close to the Catholic church (from what I understand). I have attended some Anglican Masses before and they are very close to the liturgical structure of the Catholic church.

2. They are more accepting of gay people than my religion (the Roman Catholic Church) is.

However...

It seems that nearly (if not all) Christian religions teach of a vengeful God. A judgemental God. My God is not like this. My God is a God of Love. My God tells me in my heart that it is good to love others and accept others. My God says that it is not only okay, but good to love another human being.. no matter who he or she is. My God teaches me that love is never wrong. My God tells me that I am a good person, and He loves me because He created me. My God always loves me, and He always encourages me to try to be a better person. My God believes in me... and He believes in you.

Yes, I believe in Hell. But I don't believe a person goes there for loving another person. People go to Hell because THEY want to. They go there because they do not love God. They CHOOSE to go there. They NEVER go to Hell because of love. It is unfortunate Christianity disagrees with my God and what He speaks to me in my heart each and every day. My God loves His Creation, and He believes in them....  He believes in us. He believes in us all. And He will NEVER give up on us.

I wish Christians would only understand and accept this. And I cannot attend a church that tells me otherwise.

Oh David I could not agree with you more! Everything you said is at the very root of my personal belief system.  All the negativity and judgement comes from man not God.  We are his creation, all his children and he knows us better than we know ourselves, yet he loves us unconditionally, we only have to open our hearts and receive the gift no strings attached.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2006, 05:37:35 pm »
However...

It seems that nearly (if not all) Christian religions teach of a vengeful God. A judgemental God. My God is not like this. My God is a God of Love. My God tells me in my heart that it is good to love others and accept others. My God says that it is not only okay, but good to love another human being.. no matter who he or she is. My God teaches me that love is never wrong. My God tells me that I am a good person, and He loves me because He created me. My God always loves me, and He always encourages me to try to be a better person. My God believes in me... and He believes in you.

Yes, I believe in Hell. But I don't believe a person goes there for loving another person. People go to Hell because THEY want to. They go there because they do not love God. They CHOOSE to go there. They NEVER go to Hell because of love. It is unfortunate Christianity disagrees with my God and what He speaks to me in my heart each and every day. My God loves His Creation, and He believes in them....  He believes in us. He believes in us all. And He will NEVER give up on us.

I wish Christians would only understand and accept this. And I cannot attend a church that tells me otherwise.

So the gist of what I'm getting from this David is that you pretty much worship a god not recognized by the Christian Church.

Yes, many churches emphasize the goodness and love of the Xtian god, but unfortunately, if they call themselves a Christian Church and/or have a cross sitting around somewhere in their houses of worshp, then at the core of their theology is the bible and its teachings.

And the bible is full of rules and regulations that are still in force as far as that god is concerned and you disregard them at your own peril.

I was like this once.  If anyone I felt comfortable with asked me my religion, I'd say 'I made up my own religion' because everything I believed and supported and was dedicated to wasn't in the bible or part of Jesus' or Paul's or Moses' teachings and therefore was of my own making.

After many years I had to finally leave the Christian Church because I could no longer honestly say to others or to myself that I was a Christian and loved god and followed Jesus' teachings when I didn't.  I am very spiritual myself, so I had to be honest with myself and the universe and didn't want the bad karma - if you will -  of saying one thing and being/acting another, so I left.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 06:24:45 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2006, 08:46:31 pm »
I am  a member of a sect called Pentecostal, or holy rollers.  We are also called Holiness, the "noisy group!"  We were called holy rollers because members of the church got "happy" fell on the floor and started rolling.  The holy rollers were wrapped in blankets and allowed to do their thing.  People in my sect speak in tongues, do the "holy dance," sing and shout, thus the designation, "The noisy group!"  If you have ever witnessed a "Snake Handlers" service, there is little difference in the manner of worship, except we don't handle snakes!

I haven't been to church in many months for a variety of reasons.  Perhaps one day I will return, but I can't say for sure.

Offline Daniel

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Odd Request, but may be suitable to place here.
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2006, 09:27:57 pm »
Does anyone know where I can buy Tincture of Gold for an alchemy ritual I'm performing...?

Or if not Tincture of Gold, where I can buy pure gold by the gram?
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Re: Odd Request, but may be suitable to place here.
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2006, 10:13:43 pm »
Does anyone know where I can buy Tincture of Gold for an alchemy ritual I'm performing...?

Or if not Tincture of Gold, where I can buy pure gold by the gram?

Yes actually, you can buy Tincture fo Gold here:

https://www.thecountrygoddessshop.com/displayProductDocument.hg?productId=1073&categoryId=productDisplayInfo&sourceCode=froogle

I buy my incense from them.

Offline Daniel

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2006, 10:37:43 pm »
Actually, that's a tincture of a leaf called Aztec Gold, not an actual tincture of gold..... Wish it were.
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Odd Request, but may be suitable to place here.
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2006, 10:42:53 pm »
Does anyone know where I can buy Tincture of Gold for an alchemy ritual I'm performing...?

Or if not Tincture of Gold, where I can buy pure gold by the gram?

Since a tincture is just an infusion in alcohol, may I suggest Goldschlager?  It's an alcoholic cordial with real flakes of gold already in it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 10:44:44 pm by delalluvia »

Offline David In Indy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2006, 10:44:21 pm »
Daniel -

I am being totally serious when I ask this quetion, but couldn't you use some of that liquid gold they sell to dip jewelry in? In the advertisements they say it is 24K gold.

Would that work for you or no?
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Offline Daniel

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2006, 10:49:05 pm »
Hmm, well neither of those will work really....

Tincture of Gold is a very specific chemical solution which is heated at just the right temperature until the gold is evenly spread throughout the solution. I will probably have to make it myself, I just need the pure gold, only 3 grams of it.

It's better to make alchemical things yourself anyway.
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline Daniel

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2006, 12:26:24 pm »
Well it was easy enough to procure the gold.... $20.00 on Ebay will get you at least a few grams of unrefined 23K gold in flake form.

Now to procure the rest of what I need for the Tincture of the Sun: that's going to be significantly more difficult. This is hilarious. You would think the gold would be the most expensive part. To get the rest of what I would need to make the tincture will cost me about $350.00... :(

  • Spirit of Salt (Hydrochloric Acid) $19.00
  • Spirit of Nitre (Nitric Acid) $17.00
  • Ether (Purified Ether (C4H10O) $47.00
  • Water of Life / Spirit of Wine (Concentrated Aqueous Ethanol 200 proof) $28.00
  • Glass Syringe $38.00
  • Glassware Kit $189.95

Of course, I don't know what I'm complaining about... Seeing the film 25 times in the theatre, buying two DVDs, the poster, the book, the ~Unmentionable Awards~ consideration book, has cost me about $400.00 total, but thats a rough estimate.... and I guess another $100.00 for various books, notebooks, pens, paints, pigments, for my diligant study of personal transformation, and well I did spend about $200.00 on a computer so I could work on my book in privacy.... Wow, this is really adding up. This is the most expensive thing that's ever happened to me.  :laugh: I guess you get out of it what you put into it though, so its all good.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 12:49:36 pm by Daniel »
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

vkm91941

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2006, 01:12:02 pm »
Well it was easy enough to procure the gold.... $20.00 on Ebay will get you at least a few grams of unrefined 23K gold in flake form.

Now to procure the rest of what I need for the Tincture of the Sun: that's going to be significantly more difficult. This is hilarious. You would think the gold would be the most expensive part. To get the rest of what I would need to make the tincture will cost me about $350.00... :(

  • Spirit of Salt (Hydrochloric Acid) $19.00
  • Spirit of Nitre (Nitric Acid) $17.00
  • Ether (Purified Ether (C4H10O) $47.00
  • Water of Life / Spirit of Wine (Concentrated Aqueous Ethanol 200 proof) $28.00
  • Glass Syringe $38.00
  • Glassware Kit $189.95

Of course, I don't know what I'm complaining about... Seeing the film 25 times in the theatre, buying two DVDs, the poster, the book, the ~Unmentionable Awards~ consideration book, has cost me about $400.00 total, but thats a rough estimate.... and I guess another $100.00 for various books, notebooks, pens, paints, pigments, for my diligant study of personal transformation, and well I did spend about $200.00 on a computer so I could work on my book in privacy.... Wow, this is really adding up. This is the most expensive thing that's ever happened to me.  :laugh: I guess you get out of it what you put into it though, so its all good.


Wow Daniel, fascinating.  SO when your all done what exactly is this tincture supposed to do?  What's it's purpose?  Serious question I am really interested.

Offline Daniel

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #116 on: July 21, 2006, 01:16:15 pm »
"Tincture Of Gold" contains the energy, vibration, purity and beauty of Gold, the mineral of light. "Tincture Of Gold" is congealed sunlight; a super conductor which revitalizes and regenerates the blood, the cells and the subtle bodies...

In addition, "Tincture Of Gold" serves to align us with the universal perfected energies within the sun itself. This subtle, yet powerful agent raises the consciousness of our cells (our self), and promotes peace, harmony and vitality...

As to what I am personally doing with it.... its a little surprise.. But I'll let you know as soon as I'm done.

Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #117 on: July 21, 2006, 10:14:06 pm »
Well it was easy enough to procure the gold.... $20.00 on Ebay will get you at least a few grams of unrefined 23K gold in flake form.

Now to procure the rest of what I need for the Tincture of the Sun: that's going to be significantly more difficult. This is hilarious. You would think the gold would be the most expensive part. To get the rest of what I would need to make the tincture will cost me about $350.00... :(

  • Spirit of Salt (Hydrochloric Acid) $19.00
  • Spirit of Nitre (Nitric Acid) $17.00
  • Ether (Purified Ether (C4H10O) $47.00
  • Water of Life / Spirit of Wine (Concentrated Aqueous Ethanol 200 proof) $28.00
  • Glass Syringe $38.00
  • Glassware Kit $189.95

Of course, I don't know what I'm complaining about... Seeing the film 25 times in the theatre, buying two DVDs, the poster, the book, the ~Unmentionable Awards~ consideration book, has cost me about $400.00 total, but thats a rough estimate.... and I guess another $100.00 for various books, notebooks, pens, paints, pigments, for my diligant study of personal transformation, and well I did spend about $200.00 on a computer so I could work on my book in privacy.... Wow, this is really adding up. This is the most expensive thing that's ever happened to me.  :laugh: I guess you get out of it what you put into it though, so its all good.

Being CM is always expensive.

Offline Daniel

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #118 on: July 21, 2006, 10:27:24 pm »
CM?
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #119 on: July 21, 2006, 10:28:55 pm »
CM?

Sorry, most people I know who do alchemaic (sp?) rituals are CM (Ceremonial Magicians).

Offline David In Indy

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2006, 10:48:56 pm »
Well,  I might as well go ahead and say this. When I first joined Bettermost I wasn't sure how people would react to it, but it appears there are some on this forum who study the Old Religions.

Up until about 10 years ago, I was very much involved in the Occult/Pagan religions. I studied Wicca for years. I also studied Kabala. I still have my crystal ball too! It is about the size of a soft ball, and it is very clear (hardly any bubbles).

Daniel, have you ever read the book "The 21 Lessons of Merlyn" by Douglas Monroe? I still have that book, and even though I no longer practice, I do get this book out from time to time and read it. It offers 21 courses in Celtic Druidism. It is very interesting. It contains teachings based on the 16th century manuscript "The Book of Pheryllt" and it even briefly touches on Alchemy, although I would not call this an actual Alchemy lesson. It is more like a walk through.... kind of an Alchemy 101 I  guess. I have some other books I have stored away in boxes over at my father's house. You have renewed my interest in this though, and I may  have to go over there and get them and bring them back to my house.

We use to have an Occult Book Store here in Indianapolis called "World of Wonder". I use to buy many of my supplies and equipment there. I'm not even sure if they are in business anymore. They were located on the southside of town and they sold a little bit of everything.   :D
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2006, 11:05:35 am »
Well,  I might as well go ahead and say this. When I first joined Bettermost I wasn't sure how people would react to it, but it appears there are some on this forum who study the Old Religions.

Yep.  ;D  You are wise to be cautious.  I've been run off boards before because of my religion.

Quote
Up until about 10 years ago, I was very much involved in the Occult/Pagan religions. I studied Wicca for years.

Just curious, why did you stop studying/leave?

Offline dly64

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #122 on: August 01, 2006, 02:12:41 pm »
I most closely identify these days with the liberal Friends (Quakers) and attend a meeting once in awhile because it's a long drive for me.  I like them because they focus on the individual's relationship with spirit, there is no dogma, very little hierarchy, and they are tolerant and accepting of people in all their infinite varieties.  They also have a very strong record of promoting social justice, which is extremely important to me.

Here's some info to illustrate...Quakers have a testimony called the Truth testimony.  This is where we get the 'I swear or affirm...' when taking an oath.  Quakers maintain that because they are always called upon to tell the truth, there should not be a special version of truth for official occasions like testifying in court.  During the slavery period, Quakers were very active in the Underground Railroad.  When slave-hunters would come searching, a Quaker would state, 'There are no slaves here,'  which is truth to the Quaker, because in their belief system, no man could be enslaved.  From the earliest days of the Quaker movement, women have held roles equal in the church as men.  And many Quakers were instrumental in working for women's suffrage in the U.S.  Last but not least, most liberal Quaker congregations welcome gays and lesbians and will perform union ceremonies.
-Lynne

I was reading through this thread and stopped on yours. I relate very closely to the Quakers. They come from an Anabaptist history as does my church. I am Mennonite. The first thing I hear when I say “I am Mennonite” is, "where is your bonnet?" and then "where's your horse and buggy?" Needless to say, Amish and Mennonites are not the same thing (although some of the basic theology is similar). Mennonites are like any other people (especially in my region ... Indiana). What I like is that we are pacifists, are accepting of all cultures (sexual orientation is still a sticky subject. However, several Mennonite churches have openly gay parishioners), and are social activists. We often “do” instead of preach (i.e. it isn’t what we say that shows God’s goodness … like the “right-wingers” as I call them …. we act. This means rebuilding the golf coast, providing food and medicine and health personnel to regions in need, and being very active in the local communities. In all of this I am very proud. The idea of not judging others and to meet them where they are is key.

I struggle with spirituality and organized religion. I think part of it is because of the whole extreme right Christian conservatives that are corrupting our national landscape. What I know, however, that it is important for me to believe in God … a higher power … and to have my own relationship with Him/Her.
Diane

"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em."

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: What is your religion?
« Reply #123 on: November 21, 2006, 04:18:57 am »
This is a really interesting thread.  BUMP!