Author Topic: Sacrilege  (Read 14444 times)

injest

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Sacrilege
« on: April 04, 2007, 08:45:37 pm »
I have had a bad week....so I am gonna put this out here and let YA'LL see how bad it has been!

Have you ever thought that maybe we are looking at the story the wrong way?? Maybe it IS about standing it??

That some dreams just aren't going to come true so we have to learn to deal with life without them...we have to face reality.

There comes a time that you just have to realize that you just don't have the ability to fulfill your dreams. So to continue beating your head against a stone wall is ridiculous and useless and robs you of living your life to the fullest....

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 09:10:12 pm »
If the boys had looked at reality when they came down from the mountain....and really accepted that they weren't going to be able to be together....what would their life had been like?

If Jack had not went looking for Ennis but instead had focused on living what life he could...either with Lureen or 'the foreman's wife'.....

If Ennis had stuck with one of those jobs instead of quitting to go meet Jack twice a year...would he have been better off financially? Had more responsibility?


injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 09:12:32 pm »
and the reason I am asking, well, I see people everyday that are living lifes that are not happy, not fulfilling....but how many people DO get to live their dreams?

Is it better to dream and lose big or is it better to not dream and so not lose?

especially if your dream has NO chance of coming true??

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 09:48:42 pm »
Jess, at some level I have always suspected that Jack's dream of the little cow and calf operation with Ennis was impossible, most likely for economic reasons.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 09:55:15 pm »
I have always felt that when Ennis got divorced he was in a way relieved and went off into a secret world in his mind where he could be as available to Jack as he could manage. It meant a lonely existence for him and no guarantees, but that is not answering your questions I know.

Yes, I think in many ways it is about standing it. They had hard lives and the story hinges on this one dynamic, their attraction to one another and how that made their lives harder.

We all walk around with our secrets. Sometimes, they are our only company.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 10:09:05 pm »
I have an aunt that wanted to be a fashion designer....drew wonderful designs when she was younger...

has buried three husbands, and been on welfare her entire life. Now she is dying from cancer...

so I think....would her life had been happier if she had NOT dreamed of being something more? something above her station in life??

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 10:10:42 pm »
I think it is our dreams that give us hope.  That is what I see as Jack's essence in this story, Hope.  His life and his survival are based on it when we meet him, he gives it to Ennis who was desperate for it.  The striving for a dream, just like always having the fishing trips together to look forward too combined with their deep and abiding love for one another is what made the hard lives these beautiful lonely souls lived bearable.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 10:17:21 pm by dot-matrix »
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 10:16:35 pm »
I have an aunt that wanted to be a fashion designer....drew wonderful designs when she was younger...

has buried three husbands, and been on welfare her entire life. Now she is dying from cancer...

so I think....would her life had been happier if she had NOT dreamed of being something more? something above her station in life??

Is it even possible to "dream" above your station in life?  I don't think so.  Being a Fashion Designer is something that was very within your Aunt's reach as a young woman if it was something she really wanted.  Seems to me that we make choices everyday that affect those kinds of dreams... example:  Somewhere along the line, she made choices and decisions that changed that potential, but she made them and they were her's to make since it was her future and her dream that it altered.  I'm not sure I'm explaining this right but I hope you see what mean :-\
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injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 10:18:19 pm »
I think it is our dreams that give us hope.  That what I see as Jack's essence in this story, Hope.  His life and his survival are based on it when we meet him, he gives it to Ennis who was desperate for.  The striving for a dream, just like always having the fishing trips together to look forward too combined with their deep and abiding love for one another is what made the hard lives these beautiful lonely souls lived bearable.

or did it make it worse? cause as much as the anticipation as there was....there was that much anguish when they had to part. If Jack had accepted that he couldn't have this dream maybe he could have lowered his expectations and been happier...

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 10:23:18 pm »
Is it even possible to "dream" above your station in life?  I don't think so.  Being a Fashion Designer is something that was very within your Aunt's reach as a young woman if it was something she really wanted.  Seems to me that we make choices everyday that affect those kinds of dreams... example:  Somewhere along the line, she made choices and decisions that changed that potential, but she made them and they were her's to make since it was her future and her dream that it altered.  I'm not sure I'm explaining this right but I hope you see what mean :-\

see this is where I think people who have never been TRULY poor understand reality. We hear these incredible stories about people that overcome poverty and go on to be doctors or lawyers or millionaires....but we hear them BECAUSE they are unusual and rare...if a LOT of people were overcoming poverty everyday...it wouldn't be news!!


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 10:23:30 pm »
Is it even possible to "dream" above your station in life?  I don't think so.  Being a Fashion Designer is something that was very within your Aunt's reach as a young woman if it was something she really wanted. 

Was it, though? I think sometimes it's possible to have a dream, but if you don't have any idea how to take the first step to realize the dream, or anyone to encourage you or help you on that first step, maybe that dream stays a dream.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 10:26:53 pm »
Was it, though? I think sometimes it's possible to have a dream, but if you don't have any idea how to take the first step to realize the dream, or anyone to encourage you or help you on that first step, maybe that dream stays a dream.

thank you Jeff.

I wanted to go to college. But I had no idea how to even start...my mother wanted me to quit high school and I had to be out by June of the year I graduated. So she was no help...and facing the prospect of finding a job and a place to live....college was the last thing on the list....

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 10:27:28 pm »
I thought Jack DID lower his expectations after the divorce debacle. And he stayed with Ennis a decade or so longer even though he knew Ennis would never give himself to him. That's why, at the lake, he said, "I did once" with such regret.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 10:32:47 pm »
Have you ever thought that maybe we are looking at the story the wrong way?? Maybe it IS about standing it??

That some dreams just aren't going to come true so we have to learn to deal with life without them...we have to face reality.

There comes a time that you just have to realize that you just don't have the ability to fulfill your dreams. So to continue beating your head against a stone wall is ridiculous and useless and robs you of living your life to the fullest....

There are some things in life we have no power or control over.  My mom's cancer was an example of that.  For things like that, applying the Ennis "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it" philosophy is about the best you can do.  But as far as fulfilling other dreams within yourself, I've found that people can be incredibly dynamic and can accomplish quite a lot, or at least give it a shot.  It seems more often that people don't even try.

Look at the 20 years of excuses Ennis gave Jack for not giving their relationship a chance.  Jack's character got labeled as reckless by some movie critics and "a dreamer" by his father - always talking but never delivering.  But it didn't come from a lack of trying.  And consider the alternative of being a John Twist, where time and life has basically stood still for year after year.  Even Jack's room stayed the same.

We give in too much to fear of failure, fear of the unknown, and for some, fear of success.  For a lot of folks, living a half-fulfilled existence that you know and have experience with is far easier than risking the unknown for that sweet life, so they don't even try.  And then, eventually, you get to the point where you regret that.

The message I took away from this film is that it's always worth it to take some risks.  You can't win if you don't play the game!  Unfortunately, it was too late for Jack and Ennis, and that fact alone was a major kick in my rear end to start taking those chances today.

This home called BetterMost exists -only- because of Jack and Ennis and that message.  Before Brokeback, I would have been a lot of talk, but no real action.  I took my shot and here it is.  I made mistakes along the way, asked for help when I needed it, but kept on going forward.  I'm a better person because of it.
You're a part of our family - BetterMost, Wyoming

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 10:35:01 pm »
Was it, though? I think sometimes it's possible to have a dream, but if you don't have any idea how to take the first step to realize the dream, or anyone to encourage you or help you on that first step, maybe that dream stays a dream.

Oh I totally agree with that, but  that doesn't make the dream impossible just improbable.  I wish I were more eloquent because I know I'm not making ya'all understand what I mean here.

see this is where I think people who have never been TRULY poor understand reality. We hear these incredible stories about people that overcome poverty and go on to be doctors or lawyers or millionaires....but we hear them BECAUSE they are unusual and rare...if a LOT of people were overcoming poverty everyday...it wouldn't be news!!



Poverty, any kind of poverty wither the working poor or those who experience the extreme understand how hard it is to crawl out of.  Once you're mired in it, you are well and truly stuck, at the very least it feels that way.  But dreams are free and they are no respectors of persons. Both rich and poor people have dreams.  I guess it just depends on your out look on life in general.  We were poor when I was small,  Dad had built the ranch up and we were comfortable by the time I was in high school but those early days of hand me down dresses and beans, beans, beans forever shaped who I am today.  I went to college but only because I worked my butt off and got a full scholarship.  My brother went into the Army for his education.  I am a glass is half full person, don't cut your nose off to spite your face, there is nothing so bad today that won't look better tomorrow.  I cannot visualize a world were we didn't have dreams, there would be no hope, and can people whose lives are not perfect be happy without hope?  I just can't see it.  :'(
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Offline Cameron

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2007, 10:48:17 pm »
Was it, though? I think sometimes it's possible to have a dream, but if you don't have any idea how to take the first step to realize the dream, or anyone to encourage you or help you on that first step, maybe that dream stays a dream.

I am having trouble posting here but this does so describe myself.  It is really hard to know exactly what to do to get started on your dream, what exactly to do and how to do it.  But without the dream then what else is there?

Still it is so hard when I know the things I want to do and what kind of life I want to have, but I have to just keeping forcing myself to do things that I don't particular care for or have interest in now just to make some money.

It is hard to know how to get started, but the dream hasn't gone away.  Actually it gets stronger and.....more frustrating somehow. But sometimes I don't know what to do.



Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2007, 10:50:43 pm »
What potentially crippling crucial life issue do all of us — man and beast — face? Uncertainty of the future.
And we're buffeted between outside circumstance and our own actions and decisions — with no way of knowing for sure how much each will play in determining our fate.

A major reason this film is so resonant and pertinent to so many is that is deals directly with dreams, hope and regret. You watch people live their whole lives out and reap the rewards and consequences of their hope — or lack thereof.

The flip phrase "life is a gamble" is so true at its core. The problem is, you can look back (as in the case with your aunt), and even then (with the benefit of hindsight) it's difficult to guess which course (dreaming, or not) would have been the better one.

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2007, 11:00:56 pm »
There are some things in life we have no power or control over.  My mom's cancer was an example of that.  For things like that, applying the Ennis "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it" philosophy is about the best you can do.  But as far as fulfilling other dreams within yourself, I've found that people can be incredibly dynamic and can accomplish quite a lot, or at least give it a shot.  It seems more often that people don't even try.

Look at the 20 years of excuses Ennis gave Jack for not giving their relationship a chance.  Jack's character got labeled as reckless by some movie critics and "a dreamer" by his father - always talking but never delivering.  But it didn't come from a lack of trying.  And consider the alternative of being a John Twist, where time and life has basically stood still for year after year.  Even Jack's room stayed the same.

We give in too much to fear of failure, fear of the unknown, and for some, fear of success.  For a lot of folks, living a half-fulfilled existence that you know and have experience with is far easier than risking the unknown for that sweet life, so they don't even try.  And then, eventually, you get to the point where you regret that.

The message I took away from this film is that it's always worth it to take some risks.  You can't win if you don't play the game!  Unfortunately, it was too late for Jack and Ennis, and that fact alone was a major kick in my rear end to start taking those chances today.

This home called BetterMost exists -only- because of Jack and Ennis and that message.  Before Brokeback, I would have been a lot of talk, but no real action.  I took my shot and here it is.  I made mistakes along the way, asked for help when I needed it, but kept on going forward.  I'm a better person because of it.


and maybe because they are so afraid of losing what LITTLE they have that they are incapable of reaching more?

and I am not talking about dreams that are possible....but say you dream of being a concert pianist...but you can't hear or don't have the ability....wouldn't it be better to accept that you will not headline Carnegie Hall and lower your dream to something you can do?? like learn to play the piano period??


Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2007, 11:02:46 pm »
see this is where I think people who have never been TRULY poor understand reality. We hear these incredible stories about people that overcome poverty and go on to be doctors or lawyers or millionaires....but we hear them BECAUSE they are unusual and rare...if a LOT of people were overcoming poverty everyday...it wouldn't be news!!

I am not sure how many people achieve these things and it never gets reported or discussed.  Quiet victories are still victories.  Sometimes people can manage to do extraordinary things by taking serious risks.  I'm not one of those people.  My game plan has been to take incremental steps towards my greater goals.  In part, it helps build my confidence in myself and show that I can be successful in the things I try.  It's probably the better solution for people like me who probably would be devastated by a major catastrophic failure.  I think the best way people achieve success is to make a plan that carries with it reasonable risks and steps that can be tracked along the way towards a particular goal.  It may take longer than putting everything on the line at once, but I think it's more realistic for more cautious folks.

We also need to take better care of ourselves.  I've found things like eating right and exercise to be major helps in coping with stress, and being open and honest about your feelings with others also helps us cope with bad things that happen to us.  Not only did a psychologist assist me in helping deal with my mom, but also some counselling by the hospice care people.

or did it make it worse? cause as much as the anticipation as there was....there was that much anguish when they had to part. If Jack had accepted that he couldn't have this dream maybe he could have lowered his expectations and been happier...

Unfortunately, you can't rationalize love away.  It's sort of like the first person you truly fell in love with in your life.  With time the memories and the intensity of the feelings may become rarer, but if that person was right back in front of you, making you recall those memories, a lot of the feelings are likely to come back with them.  Jack and Ennis lived the lives society expected them to live.  Jack was prepared to dump Lureen the moment Ennis said yes -- she basically served as some sort of "next best thing."  Ennis drifted around as though he was a spectator to his own life, clueless as to how to manage the people around him, and the feelings they developed for him.  But the one thing both of them knew whenever they were together - Brokeback got them good, and they were powerless to change that.

Was it, though? I think sometimes it's possible to have a dream, but if you don't have any idea how to take the first step to realize the dream, or anyone to encourage you or help you on that first step, maybe that dream stays a dream.

This happens to a lot of people.  The best solution that has worked for me is to ask for help.  If you don't know how to get started, someone does, but none of us are psychic, so the only way someone can offer their own experiences is if they are asked.  What is often nice about asking is that you learn something you can then pass along to the next person who might be in the same boat you are, and helping others often feels wonderful.

I thought Jack DID lower his expectations after the divorce debacle. And he stayed with Ennis a decade or so longer even though he knew Ennis would never give himself to him. That's why, at the lake, he said, "I did once" with such regret.

I think you could read the regret on their faces as time passed, up until the point where the big blowup about "all we've got is Brokeback Mountain."  Jack and Ennis came to tolerate their 'unwritten agreement,' completely unfair and ridiculous it had come to be after all that time.  The whole thing was maddening to me, but then I didn't grow up in 1960s Wyoming and wasn't about to have my life's ambitions and measurement of success dictated by societal convention.  I was becoming as exasperated as Jack at the total lack of progress in making any change. The first time I saw the film, I thought for sure that Ennis' collapse on the ground was FINALLY a potential breakthrough moment, where Jack could finally say enough was enough and take a lead role in getting himself into Ennis' life, even if it meant building a cabin next door.  But it wasn't to be.

But ultimately, the opportunity to win in the end was taken away by Jack's death.  And after that, Ennis finally had his moment of clarity, of revelation and acceptance.  Unfortunately for him, it was too late.

Message to the rest of us: Don't let this happen to you!
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Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2007, 11:17:47 pm »
and maybe because they are so afraid of losing what LITTLE they have that they are incapable of reaching more?

and I am not talking about dreams that are possible....but say you dream of being a concert pianist...but you can't hear or don't have the ability....wouldn't it be better to accept that you will not headline Carnegie Hall and lower your dream to something you can do?? like learn to play the piano period??

I guess to be an overachiever would be to say I want to be a concert pianist and bash yourself for not managing to achieve that goal, all while never learning to play the piano in the first place.  That would be a perfect example of unreasonable expectations and beating oneself up, because you cannot achieve that concert pianist role without first learning the play the piano.

So, logically, how could one ever achieve a goal if they never took the first steps on the journey to get there?  And then one sits around and beats himself/herself up for being a failure?

The psychologist who helped me identify my own self-doubting demons discovered right away I was far more likely to believe the negative things I thought about myself than the positive ones.  One of the things he suggested was to write empowering, positive sticky notes for myself and put them in places where I would see them.  They might track the small steps I had already taken towards a greater goal, or say more general things like "I believe in myself."  But my sense of humor is grounded in comedic cynicism and there would be no way in the world I'd buy into a blizzard of empowering sticky notes all over my desk.  "It's corny and silly," I told him and "I wouldn't believe in it anyway."  But, as he pointed out, I was perfectly willing to buy into the "I can't do this" mentality, which was based on absolutely nothing concrete whatsoever.  Why should I try to do anything remarkable when I wouldn't succeed at it anyway, so why bother?

But, how can anyone know if they will succeed at something until they actually try?  In this example, the first step would be to actually sit down and learn the piano.  At the very least, you'd end up with a new skill and a new achievement, worth something even if you didn't ultimately achieve a concern pianist goal.  In fact, after learning this new skill, you may be satisfied enough with just that and no longer feel a need to achieve that goal.  And along the way of learning the piano, who knows what else can happen.  Perhaps a teacher could inspire you about a possibility you never thought of before.  Perhaps you get introduced to someone learning the piano around the same time and discover a new found friendship.  Perhaps you learn it well enough to teach others and find some joy in that.

The possibilities go on and on, but only for those who elect to take the first step and learn the piano.  The big mistake is to dismiss the value of all of it unless you absolutely achieve ultimate goal perfection.
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2007, 11:47:40 pm »
I was just reading Phillips post, and my story is the reverse of his. Well, maybe not.

My parents insisted on exposing me to music. I started taking piano lessons at the age of 5 and violin lessons a few years later. I fell in love with the violin, so much in fact that I spent the next couple of years nagging my parents to let me take cello lessons too. They finally agreed, and my entire world was immersed in music. My life revolved around it. I loved the violin and cello so much I joined the Carmel Junior Symphony Orchestra by the age of 12 (in addition to the school orchestra). Later, in high school I joined the Carmel Symphony Orchestra. I loved playing in the orchestra and I was certain I wanted to make music my profession. After I graduated from high school, the conductor of the CSO, Victor Zydonis insisted I audition for ISO (Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra). I really thought my "dream" had come true. Now I had the opportunity to play with a major US orchestra and travel. But once I found out the salary I would have been paid, I gave up on the idea. It didn't pay enough; at least not enough at the entry level.

So, I decided to go to college. I decided to study Funeral Service. Why? I don't know. The pay was good, and I liked the idea of working in a profession where I could help people. So, I attended college and earned a three year degree (Indiana only requires a 2 year associate of science degree). After college, I spent the next several years working for a major funeral home in Indianapolis. But after a few years, I found it was draining me emotionally. I was working 70 hours a week, and I was surrounded by grief all the time.

So, I went back to college. This time I earned a degree in accounting. Then, another degree in photography.

Each and every time, I thought I was working towards my dream, and at the time, I think I probably was. But my dreams changed. And, sometimes I found out my "dream" really wasn't my dream at all.  I guess all we can really hope for is a content life, surrounded by people who love us.

I'm currently working as an accountant. I make a pretty good living. I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either. I have a nice house, a good job, lots of friends, a dog and a cat, and a wonderful boyfriend (who just happens to live in a different country in a far away continent, but I digress).

So, am I living my dream? I don't know. But if simply being happy and content is my dream, then I guess I am!  :D

I still play my music, and it brings me a lot of joy and comfort. But, I still saving up for that baby grand piano! Maybe someday!  :)

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injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2007, 11:53:11 pm »
I am not sure how many people achieve these things and it never gets reported or discussed.  Quiet victories are still victories.  Sometimes people can manage to do extraordinary things by taking serious risks.  I'm not one of those people.  My game plan has been to take incremental steps towards my greater goals.  In part, it helps build my confidence in myself and show that I can be successful in the things I try.  It's probably the better solution for people like me who probably would be devastated by a major catastrophic failure.  I think the best way people achieve success is to make a plan that carries with it reasonable risks and steps that can be tracked along the way towards a particular goal.  It may take longer than putting everything on the line at once, but I think it's more realistic for more cautious folks.

We also need to take better care of ourselves.  I've found things like eating right and exercise to be major helps in coping with stress, and being open and honest about your feelings with others also helps us cope with bad things that happen to us.  Not only did a psychologist assist me in helping deal with my mom, but also some counselling by the hospice care people.

Unfortunately, you can't rationalize love away.  It's sort of like the first person you truly fell in love with in your life.  With time the memories and the intensity of the feelings may become rarer, but if that person was right back in front of you, making you recall those memories, a lot of the feelings are likely to come back with them.  Jack and Ennis lived the lives society expected them to live.  Jack was prepared to dump Lureen the moment Ennis said yes -- she basically served as some sort of "next best thing."  Ennis drifted around as though he was a spectator to his own life, clueless as to how to manage the people around him, and the feelings they developed for him.  But the one thing both of them knew whenever they were together - Brokeback got them good, and they were powerless to change that.

This happens to a lot of people.  The best solution that has worked for me is to ask for help.  If you don't know how to get started, someone does, but none of us are psychic, so the only way someone can offer their own experiences is if they are asked.  What is often nice about asking is that you learn something you can then pass along to the next person who might be in the same boat you are, and helping others often feels wonderful.

I think you could read the regret on their faces as time passed, up until the point where the big blowup about "all we've got is Brokeback Mountain."  Jack and Ennis came to tolerate their 'unwritten agreement,' completely unfair and ridiculous it had come to be after all that time.  The whole thing was maddening to me, but then I didn't grow up in 1960s Wyoming and wasn't about to have my life's ambitions and measurement of success dictated by societal convention.  I was becoming as exasperated as Jack at the total lack of progress in making any change. The first time I saw the film, I thought for sure that Ennis' collapse on the ground was FINALLY a potential breakthrough moment, where Jack could finally say enough was enough and take a lead role in getting himself into Ennis' life, even if it meant building a cabin next door.  But it wasn't to be.

But ultimately, the opportunity to win in the end was taken away by Jack's death.  And after that, Ennis finally had his moment of clarity, of revelation and acceptance.  Unfortunately for him, it was too late.

Message to the rest of us: Don't let this happen to you!

and if you don't have anyone in your life to ask? If you are a kid in the middle of nowhere? and the people around you don't know the answer....or don't even understand the question...or even the reasoning behind the question? I know that my own family viewed me with suspision growing up because I read a lot...I was 'weird'....why would I want to go to college?

and counseling is wonderful if you can afford it...or have access to it. Small town USA is not the place to find it. Even the idea of eating right....poor people don't eat right because eating well costs a lot more than eating poorly. They are trapped by the lack of choices. Some have no cars or money for gas to drive the car they have....so they buy at convenience stores or try to buy things that last (high in preservatives) to save trips.

Reality.

I am probably not conveying what I am trying to say well....but I knew the idea wasn't gonna be popular when I started it...




Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2007, 11:58:56 pm »
My parents insisted on exposing me to music. I started taking piano lessons at the age of 5 and violin lessons a few years later.

Yes, we are on different tracks here, but they are at least next to each other.  I took clarinet lessons up until the 3rd grade in elementary school, at which point the teacher shared with my parents that my talents obviously laid elsewhere.  I didn't care enough to agree or disagree, really.  :)  I ended up in chorus as a soprano until puberty hit and my voice dropped.  The voice sounded better reading things to people than singing to them, so off towards the radio world I went.  I, like yourself, discovered the abusive pay that industry enjoyed putting on its employees, especially the on-air ones, so as a practicality, I jumped out of that as well.

The new reality in this country today suggests that people will change jobs and even career paths several times in their working life -- it's not so uncommon anymore.  We're all becoming our own free agents, representing ourselves first and foremost, and the company second (especially these days).  And I agree that dreams do change.  I've always told people headed for college to take as broad of a range of courses possible so they have a good foundation established that will assist them if/when their dreams or plans do change as well.

And that our dreams can and do change is not necessarily a threat to our happiness as individuals.  It's actually a good thing to have the freedom to explore those things and achieve them.
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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2007, 12:03:44 am »
ok...let me try phrasing it like this...

reach for your dreams...work for them...

but learning to accept your limitations (the inevitable) seems a better choice for long term happiness!

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2007, 12:16:10 am »
ok...let me try phrasing it like this...

reach for your dreams...work for them...

but learning to accept your limitations (the inevitable) seems a better choice for long term happiness!

I think it depends on the person Jess. Some people aren't happy unless they are constantly reaching higher. Maybe their dream is in the "reaching", and not so much in the "attaining".

Others find happiness with what they have; or at least what is attainable, like you said. They find their dreams around them; in the family and friends. Everyone is different. Personally, I wouldn't spend my life striving for a dream if I knew it was impossible. That would be stupid on my part. I would be setting myself up for disappointment.

I would love to get married and have children of my own. This is one of my dreams. But it's not possible. Not for me anyhow. How could it be? It's not legally possible for me to marry the person I love, and it wouldn't be physically possible for us to have children of our own. It' just not possible, and it would be stupid to waste time trying to pursue it.

I think dreams are relative. Some people are already living their dream and they just don't know it. That was the point I was trying to make in my post.

Perhaps others would beg to differ with me.  :)
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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2007, 12:21:24 am »
I think it depends on the person Jess. Some people aren't happy unless they are constantly reaching higher. Maybe their dream is in the "reaching", and not so much in the "attaining".

Others find happiness with what they have; or at least what is attainable, like you said. They find their dreams around them; in the family and friends. Everyone is different. Personally, I wouldn't spend my life striving for a dream if I knew it was impossible. That would be stupid on my part. I would be setting myself up for disappointment.

I would love to get married and have children of my own. This is one of my dreams. But it's not possible. Not for me anyhow. How could it be? It's not legally possible for me to marry the person I love, and it wouldn't be physically possible for us to have children of our own. It' just not possible, and it would be stupid to waste time trying to pursue it.

I think dreams are relative. Some people are already living their dream and they just don't know it. That was the point I was trying to make in my post.

Perhaps others would beg to differ with me.  :)

that is sad to me....

well, obviously I am not in the most cheerfulest (is that a word?) mood...so I will leave it at that...this is a question I have had about the movie for a while....whether we are looking at it from the wrong direction... :)

XX

{{{David}}}

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2007, 12:32:37 am »
I am having trouble posting here but this does so describe myself.  It is really hard to know exactly what to do to get started on your dream, what exactly to do and how to do it.  But without the dream then what else is there?

Still it is so hard when I know the things I want to do and what kind of life I want to have, but I have to just keeping forcing myself to do things that I don't particular care for or have interest in now just to make some money.

It is hard to know how to get started, but the dream hasn't gone away.  Actually it gets stronger and.....more frustrating somehow. But sometimes I don't know what to do.

yes, the first order of living is survival..I remember in one of the classes in high school there was an order of needs...what has to be taken care of before you can think of the other things...

if you are struggling with basic survival you can't move on to working on dreams....well... you can but it is much harder.




Offline Cameron

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2007, 12:46:28 am »
Yeah, thats the struggle, for me at least.

I don't have the time to become as good as I can be and think I can be in the things that I love to do because I have to spend time on my work.

But then I never feel good about work because its not what I really want to be doing and then I feel all guilty for not working as hard as I feel I am supposed to. So honestly I just end up all frustrated and confused ???



Offline Daniel

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2007, 01:23:35 am »
For me, Jess, I think I know where you are coming from (and so many others that have posted as well).

I know that when I went into college, I was planning on studying archaeology with plans to go into egyptology. There were a number of exciting discoveries made in the previous few years that I wanted to get in on, but the college that I was able to go to and could afford didn't really offer specialized courses in egyptology, but nevertheless I think I made a good choice. Anthropology was completely fascinating to me and the fact that I really knew how to observe people (from a lifetime of intellectual boredom I suppose) grabbed a hold of me. For three years of my five years in college I focused on anthropology and psychology courses, dipping now and then into archaeology. But what really interested me about archaeology I discovered was more studied in anthropology, namely politicial and religious anthropology. I still have no idea how to apply this particular information in the real world, though I thought I might be well suited for a counterintelligence role... but I have a somewhat unique understanding of the flow of power, through both symbolic interactions and political intrigue.

But what saddened me was that during my pursuit, my parents insisted several times that I change my major to business or something more applicable (mathematics, computer science - ick!) and could ensure a job for me in the "real world" as they called it. That certainly got me to thinking about how I could apply anthropology in the real world.... something that I could really have a passion for. I was completely immersed in celtic culture at the time, and did in depth-historical research into Ireland's cultures and cultural conflicts. I really began to understand how unique and important the Irish culture and people were for the entire planet, and how much they had suffered to keep their traditional cultural values intact. (Seriously, the death penalty for wearing green and gold). One of our anthropology/sociology courses studied cultural conflict, and I wrote a thesis for that class specifically detailing how cultural preservation programs and historical tourism could actually benefit among other things cultural education. So I thought about that for a very long time and decided to pursue an Interdisciplinary Degree which could combine anthropology, communications, history and marketing techniques in a specific way... namely through historical tourism. So I changed my major to the Interdisciplinary Studies and my parents were happier. I was accepted into an internship in a company that worked exclusively with historical/cultural tourism and I couldn't wait until I graduated. I was very excited (pumped, I believe is the vernacular.) and for the very first time it really felt like my life was heading in the right direction. I was planning to graduate in the summer of 2002.

Those plans of course were decimated by the events of September 11, 2001 and the resulting economic crash. The business that I had gotten the internship with went down, and tourism (which had been before then one of the fastest growing markets) seemed to completely drop from the global economic view. In fact, every other business and school in the area that pursued or taught skills specifically devoted to external tourism closed. I had never been so devastated in my life, and found myself in a lot of debt because the company (that had offered to pay for my tuition) had completely collapsed and could not afford even that small luxury. I couldn't afford to keep going to school, and as I was in my fifth year already, managed to piece together a degree in Anthropology with a minor in psychology. (There are a number of advanced degree programs that one can pursue with a minor in psychology). So now I had a college degree, but with no idea of where to go from here...

I certainly didn't give up on the idea that I could find something that would enthrall me that I could live with. I continued to dream and to strive towards them in whatever ways I could.  And that led me into my next career, my pursuit of an online program which would give me some wonderful new skills that I could use to help people, and which I found I could quite easily mesh together with my anthropological and psychological observation and application skills. The core of the matter is profoundly human, and all humans face imbalance in their lives. The holistic life coach can examine this imbalance and help lead people to a greater understanding of themselves, and whether or not they should "stand it" or "fix it".

Actually, to a great extent, holistic life coaching always assumes that a situation is fixable. Even if only a few small changes can be made. But if you want success stories of people who have gotten places after thinking for years that they couldn't, we have only to examine the case files of the holistic life coaches that I studied under.  The main thing is to keep active. NEVER give in to a situation that you can't stand and simply allow it to roll you into the mud. Make a plan of action. If you don't know what to do, find someone that does. I know some clients who didn't even know who to ask, and I advised them to do online searches, go to reading groups, or even ask complete strangers. The human question "Can you help me?" can engage anyone, and sometimes just engaging in a conversation with a stranger can shed enlightenment on the most mysterious or depressing of circumstances.  (This happens with business coaching a great deal, also. Entrepreneurs that have no idea how to do something, but know that they want to do it can find advice from someone.)
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2007, 02:32:45 am »
yes, the first order of living is survival..I remember in one of the classes in high school there was an order of needs...what has to be taken care of before you can think of the other things...

if you are struggling with basic survival you can't move on to working on dreams....well... you can but it is much harder.


EXACTLY!  This is the point I was trying in my inept way to share with you.  NO one said life was easy, especially for poor people with few options.  Even the comfortable don't always get a free ride.  Like Daniel, my husband is student of anthropology, it is his passion, he is an authority on the ancient cultures of the desert southwest with a particular emphasis on the Kayenta Anasazi  who are ancestors of the Hopi.  He spent many years participating in digs and crawling through cliff dwellings and other sights all over the 4 corners area.  BUT as you said the first priority is making a living at what you do and unless you have a name  that is widely recognized in Academia large universities DO NOT offer to underwrite your research.  So Bob teaches high school right now, which he loathes even thought he likes most of the kids, and he continues to work on his Phd and we spend darn near 4 weeks out of every summer cruising all over the southwest together and he spents a month alone on one university dig or another.  Well he ever be Dr. Bob, will he ever publish the reems of paper he has produced from his research so near and dear to his heart....who knows...but it is his dream and he is happy in the pursuit of it even if he never fully realizes it and I am happy working to support his dream.


I'm sorry about your Aunt Jess and I'm sorry that you are so down right now. {{{ Jess}}}}  I think you're accurate that the film can be interpreted that way if you want to look at it from the negative perspective.  But isn't the point of morality tales such as this to up lift and educate.  In that case I feel that the more positive intrepretation, the one we went with originally is probably the more accurate.
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Offline Kelda

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2007, 03:38:43 am »
bump to find later so I can read properly and reply properly.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2007, 05:32:12 am »
If the boys had looked at reality when they came down from the mountain....and really accepted that they weren't going to be able to be together....what would their life had been like?

If Jack had not went looking for Ennis but instead had focused on living what life he could...either with Lureen or 'the foreman's wife'.....

If Ennis had stuck with one of those jobs instead of quitting to go meet Jack twice a year...would he have been better off financially? Had more responsibility?




I don't think they would have been happier. They couldn't change who they were. I think this goes deeper than the dream to be a high-class concert pianist. It is about being the person you truly are, about not pretending, about being accepted.

What I can rely to in Ennis' and Jack's story, is the aspect of pretending to be another person than you are and of living the wrong life. When I grew up, I lived in two different families. In one, I had to pretend all the time. I had to be the reasonable, quiet, unobstrusive child who brings good grades home from school and is more or less non existent for the rest. No friends allowed to bring home, no loud playing, singing, don't talk too much. Everything a normal child does was unbearable for my parents. I was more or less non-existent in that family. I had to pretent to be non-existent, I couldn't be the person I am.

In my sencond family, I was just a normal child. And I was just myself. I am not a quiet and unobsrusive person, I am high-spirited, sometimes loud, very talkative, have a bad temper from time to time, love to be around other people, bring friends home, and so on.
All this I could be when living with my second family. And I was not alone there. I had three sisters, we were a loud and jolly bunch and sometimes the sparks flew. I was accepted there the way I was. I was at home there.

I can't tell you how happy I was every time I was allowed to go to my second family (the deal was, I had to stay with my bodily parents for school days, and was allowed to go home on many weekends and during the school holidays).
And how devasted I always was when I had to go back to my bodily parents. How alone, empty and hollow felt all the time I wasn't at home (and that was the greater part of the year).

But: would I have been better off, if I hadn't have my second family at all? If I had never known them? Or if I just had given up and submitted to the life my parents wanted me to live? . No fucking way!
You have no idea how thankful I was (and still am) for my second family. I wouldn't be the person I am today if it weren't for them.

The situation caused me much hurt. But it was better than not having my second family at all. It was better to be myself only for some time and to pretend for the rest of the time than to never be able to be myself at all.

This is not about dreams and plans you have for your life. It is about being who you are and being accepted for yourself.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2007, 02:35:40 pm »
That is true also. Sometimes this is the first hurdle that I've had to help my clients overcome. The perception of the self and how the self is restrained or contained by surrounding elements is often the very thing which is preventing forward movement. The inability to be true to the self is the greatest difficulty which we face as a species, and thus when it is conquered, it is our most freeing and empowering moment. When you can become comfortable with your own inner self, befriend the demons and angels within, and be aware that everything that has happened to you (the good and the bad) is what has made you as you are now, then you can really start to see things beyond the perceived limitations that existed before.
Why do we consume what we consume?
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Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2007, 06:40:23 pm »
Man, it is frustrating to want to speak your mind and not having the words to make yourself understand.

I have been thinking about this today...and one of the problems is I am using one word two different ways.

SO....

this is how I define a dream...it is something you would like do or achieve. ex: go on a cruise thru the Greek Islands...that is concievable...you MAY be able to do that.

now there are other dreams that are not...they are FANTASIES: dreaming of flying to Mars...aint happening!!

so...Jack was gay, he DREAMED of being with Ennis...his FANTASY was that Ennis would change and they would be able to have their lil cow and calf operation.

now if he had given UP the fantasy...and worked on the dream...he could have been happier (IMO) He could have moved to Wyoming; took a job near Ennis and seen him much more. But instead he focused on the fantasy....robbing himself of the joy that was POSSIBLE...

that is all I am trying to say...and not very well!! LOL!!

to me the movie is a morality play about living your dreams without being blinded by fantasies...


Offline Daniel

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2007, 12:19:32 am »
Actually, if we go by the movie, I don't think Jack's cow-and-calf operation would have been a fantasy. He said it quite thoughtfully, as though he had been thinking about it for a while, and a precursory glance at his clothing and jewelry in the later scenes of the film reveal that he was quite financially secure, to say the least. Furthermore, Jack had the know-how and probably made a little bit more than his father did even in the earlier scenes of the film. At least, that's how it seems to me. Perhaps someone with more ranching experience might be able to explain it better.
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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2007, 12:24:27 am »
but if you pin your dreams to someone ELSE changing to meet your dream...that sends it into fantasy for me....

he was depending on Ennis to change and be willing to do it....Ennis was NOT.

and Jack's money came from Lureen. I would be suprised to see him get much if they divorced...

Offline Daniel

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2007, 12:36:39 am »
It is true that a shared dream does in fact need to be shared in order to be successful, but whether or not the unsatisfactory life of that relationship would have been better if Jack had given up on his hope that Ennis might one day "see the light" remains to be seen. But I think that what you might be suggesting is that Jack may have crossed that thin line between hope and expectation. And expectation, particularly when it is unmet in relationships, can be a spiritually devastating thought-form. Unmet expectation leads to that almost-eternal feeling of incompletion and the long, tedious wait. But more sadly, expectation in the face of impossibility (or at best, severe difficulty) creates the feeling of blame. "If it's not the way I want it, someone must be at fault." Rarely do we look at ourselves for the source of this problem.

I just realized that this sentence, or perhaps the past few sentences, seem harsh in retrospect. Though if I spoke them to myself in some of my more difficult times, I would not have been too insulted.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 12:43:08 am by Daniel »
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

injest

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2007, 12:41:15 am »
It is true that a shared dream does in fact need to be shared in order to be successful, but whether or not the unsatisfactory life of that relationship would have been better if Jack had given up on his hope that Ennis might one day "see the light" remains to be seen. But I think that what you might be suggesting is that Jack may have crossed that thin line between hope and expectation. And expectation, particularly when it is unmet in relationships, can be a spiritually devastating thought-form. Unmet expectation leads to that almost-eternal feeling of incompletion and the long, tedious wait. But more sadly, expectation in the face of impossibility (or at best, severe difficulty) creates the feeling of blame. "If it's not the way I want it, someone must be at fault." Rarely do we look at ourselves for the source of this problem.

very true....

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2007, 08:23:56 pm »
I was just reading Phillips post, and my story is the reverse of his. Well, maybe not.

My parents insisted on exposing me to music. I started taking piano lessons at the age of 5 and violin lessons a few years later. I fell in love with the violin, so much in fact that I spent the next couple of years nagging my parents to let me take cello lessons too. They finally agreed, and my entire world was immersed in music. My life revolved around it. I loved the violin and cello so much I joined the Carmel Junior Symphony Orchestra by the age of 12 (in addition to the school orchestra). Later, in high school I joined the Carmel Symphony Orchestra. I loved playing in the orchestra and I was certain I wanted to make music my profession. After I graduated from high school, the conductor of the CSO, Victor Zydonis insisted I audition for ISO (Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra). I really thought my "dream" had come true. Now I had the opportunity to play with a major US orchestra and travel. But once I found out the salary I would have been paid, I gave up on the idea. It didn't pay enough; at least not enough at the entry level.

So, I decided to go to college. I decided to study Funeral Service. Why? I don't know. The pay was good, and I liked the idea of working in a profession where I could help people. So, I attended college and earned a three year degree (Indiana only requires a 2 year associate of science degree). After college, I spent the next several years working for a major funeral home in Indianapolis. But after a few years, I found it was draining me emotionally. I was working 70 hours a week, and I was surrounded by grief all the time.

So, I went back to college. This time I earned a degree in accounting. Then, another degree in photography.

Each and every time, I thought I was working towards my dream, and at the time, I think I probably was. But my dreams changed. And, sometimes I found out my "dream" really wasn't my dream at all.  I guess all we can really hope for is a content life, surrounded by people who love us.

I'm currently working as an accountant. I make a pretty good living. I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either. I have a nice house, a good job, lots of friends, a dog and a cat, and a wonderful boyfriend (who just happens to live in a different country in a far away continent, but I digress).

So, am I living my dream? I don't know. But if simply being happy and content is my dream, then I guess I am!  :D

I still play my music, and it brings me a lot of joy and comfort. But, I still saving up for that baby grand piano! Maybe someday!  :)




Wow, I didn't know most of that about you, David.  Thanks for telling it.   :-*

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2007, 08:37:30 pm »
I feel so lucky and privileged to read what everyone has written here.  It's an honor.

I guess for me, I am the least degreed member of my family.  The answer to "what do you do?" has rarely been simple or comfortable.  I think most of my family has the quiet, sad opinion that I have wasted my intellect.  And sometimes I get on my own case that way.  But I have had my own drummer to march to, and can't seem to help it.  In the last four years, now that I am a stay at home mother, that is recognizable and acceptable to people, and now my family notices I do a good job at that.  I did a good job at the other stuff too, for the most part, but it was never things they valued. 

So I AM living my dream (even though I worry about the cracks in my living room ceiling, and various other things), and come to find, have been living my dreams most of my life (once I got out of my parents' house).  But I have been often unhappy and confused during the process.  I've envied people who were willing to just stick with something. 

I know this sounds disjointed.

Anyway, it's funny how much we ponder so many "What ifs" for Ennis and Jack.  If it had been any other way it wouldn't have been BBM.  I'm glad they didn't "wise up" and move on away from each other.  Vicariously, I live for their fishing trips too, through them.  I would NOT rather they give those up.

I've lost the topic.  I'm going to post this anyway.

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2007, 12:31:17 am »
Anyway, it's funny how much we ponder so many "What ifs" for Ennis and Jack.  If it had been any other way it wouldn't have been BBM.

So true! We can't help imagining a happier outcome. So we talk about, what if Jack had offered Ennis a ride in Signal, what if Ennis had invited Jack to hang out at his house in the post divorce scene ... If those things had come to pass, it would have been great for Jack and Ennis. But then Annie Proulx would have had to pick some other couple to write about ...  :-\

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2007, 03:36:59 am »

Wow, I didn't know most of that about you, David.  Thanks for telling it.   :-*



Well, around here Clarissa, a gay cello, piano, and violin playing accountant who just happens to have a funeral director's license and a boyfriend who lives across the Atlantic isn't exactly the idea of a success story. Not in Hoosier terms anyway. But I'm glad you enjoyed it, and yeah, I AM happy!  :D
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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2007, 05:06:38 am »
Well, around here Clarissa, a gay cello, piano, and violin playing accountant who just happens to have a funeral director's license and a boyfriend who lives across the Atlantic isn't exactly the idea of a success story. Not in Hoosier terms anyway.

Sounds pretty good to me, David! Except maybe the across-the-Atlantic part. That must be a pain.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2007, 03:04:58 pm »
I have had a bad week....so I am gonna put this out here and let YA'LL see how bad it has been!

Have you ever thought that maybe we are looking at the story the wrong way?? Maybe it IS about standing it??

That some dreams just aren't going to come true so we have to learn to deal with life without them...we have to face reality.

There comes a time that you just have to realize that you just don't have the ability to fulfill your dreams. So to continue beating your head against a stone wall is ridiculous and useless and robs you of living your life to the fullest....

Thanks Injest for this topic. Anyone who has read most of my posts over the months here or on other boards knows (and I've gotten tons of flak!) I see the story/film in just this way for many reasons. No sacrilege at all. Life is not perfect; love that is not perfect is still love; and situations often do not allow for our first choices to be the ones we go with. I actually like that about life; we are quickly becoming a nation of spoiled children and the idea from the 80s that "you can have it all" is not good for the soul. Ennis, in particular, is a better man for his inner need to fulfill his responsibilities while balancing his other needs. His spirit was made strong from this and few people have the understanding of life that he has having done so, imo.

Scott6373

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2007, 04:14:22 pm »


Well, around here Clarissa, a gay cello, piano, and violin playing accountant who just happens to have a funeral director's license and a boyfriend who lives across the Atlantic isn't exactly the idea of a success story. Not in Hoosier terms anyway. But I'm glad you enjoyed it, and yeah, I AM happy!  :D

How did I never know this?  I am married to one.

Scott6373

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Re: Sacrilege
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2007, 04:26:45 pm »
I have had a bad week....so I am gonna put this out here and let YA'LL see how bad it has been!

Have you ever thought that maybe we are looking at the story the wrong way?? Maybe it IS about standing it??

That some dreams just aren't going to come true so we have to learn to deal with life without them...we have to face reality.

There comes a time that you just have to realize that you just don't have the ability to fulfill your dreams. So to continue beating your head against a stone wall is ridiculous and useless and robs you of living your life to the fullest....

...and here I thought I was the only one who felt this way about the film.  I would have to add, however, that, even though we someday have to realize that the dreams we hung our hats on may never come true, somewhere a new dream has formed in our hearts.  That's what gives me hope for not only myself, but for the rest of the world.

Sure, the films slap in the face was that Ennis lost Jack, "his dream" (though he would never admit this), but a new one started for him;  He now had the ability to feel and know true love, unconditional love.  This knowledge, and the worlds it opens for him, are his new dream.  Sometimes we have a hard time seeing these new dreams for what they are.