Author Topic: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .  (Read 10285 times)

Offline mlewisusc

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« on: April 22, 2006, 01:12:24 am »
Just stopped in at the main board a few days ago and saw an interesting thread about the timing of the flashback.  The thing that really caught my attention was the focus on what was/was not/might have been said between Jack and Ennis (mostly from Film, but I suppose Story could fit in here) between Jack's "Damn, you, Ennis" when Ennis is clutching him, and Ennis driving away.

If this is already a thread on here, pardon me and direct me to it!  I'm still not so on top of everything here.

If this was done to death sometime between late November and now on the main board or at Chez Tremblay, I missed it - and while I admit the possibility, I find it unlikely.

Third disclaimer: I'm going to copy a post, with the poster's IMDB screen name, here.  If this is impermissible for some reason, would one of the lovely moderators gently tell me so?  Thanks gang, as always I am really interested in your thoughts.  Here's the post:

amandazehnder (Wed Apr 12 2006 19:12:48 )   
Ignore this User | Report Abuse   
whiteorchid32, I agree that Jack mostly looks hurt and frustrated. I'm also quite struck by how pale and worn-out he looks during this scene. In the story Proulx notes that "what they'd said was no news. Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." And, that they managed to "torque things almost to where they had been..." And, this is the sense that I got in the film too. They would go back to the status quo.

I'm increasingly convinced that the importance of the timing of the flashback has to to with positioning Ennis's last line in the flashback "see you in the morning" as the last line of dialogue that we actually hear between Jack and Ennis (even though it's out of sequence in the actual chronology of the film). Unbearably bittersweet and ominous.


So what really go me about this was the fact that the last line of dialog we hear between Ennis and Jack is Ennis' "see you in the morning," unless, like I sometimes am willing to entertain, we take Ennis's final "Jack, I swear . . ." as a line of dialog between them . . .
"Good enough place" - Ennis del Mar

Offline Ellemeno

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,367
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 03:22:53 am »
Hi Mark,

The person who wrote these good pearls of wisdom is here at BetterMost as atz75, so you can ask her (Amanda) how she feels about it, if you want - and I would also recommend going through and reading her other insightful posts here.

I'm not sure if there is a BetterMost poilicy about posting something like this, or what 'netiquette' would say.  My initial thought is that it was posted on a public forum, and then reposted by you on a public forum, so no problem.

Also want to say, I'm so glad you are here, I've been looking forward to you jumpin' in!

Clarissa

Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2006, 03:38:37 am »
I went back and looked for the thread but couldn't find it. Did you copy the entire thing of just the OP? I'd love to read the whole thing.

 O0

Heathen

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2006, 03:53:08 am »
This is interesting to think about.  Myself, each time I watch this scene and the next (D E C E A S E D) I'm not thinking about what was/wasn't said, I'm just too hung up on the devastation.  But lately I have started to "fill in some of the blanks" in my own way.  My current thought with this particular one is that there is an uncomfortable silence, followed by a brushing off of the dust, wiping of eyes, and then Ennis stoically and silently returns to his truck...  Jack's expression as Ennis drives off suggests to me that there wasn't much else said, not even "...November then".
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2006, 04:06:47 am »
I've never really tried to fill in that gap but as I've been sitting here thinking about it, I believe there was some conversation between them before Ennis left-some reconcilation. I've always viewed the flashback as Jack's reminder to himself that Ennis does love him and will always "be back in the morning" and he uses that memory to keep himself going. I see that look on his face as Ennis drives away as a the realization that things will not change and his acceptance of that unhappy fact. The great debate over was he leaving or not-never in any of my viewings did I ever see that lake scene as Jack's final straw or decision to leave Ennis-I saw it as quite the opposite.

Heathen

Offline ednbarby

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,586
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2006, 05:44:51 am »
"I see that look on his face as Ennis drives away as a the realization that things will not change and his acceptance of that unhappy fact."

I agree with this, RouxB.  In the story, when Jack thinks of that time of artless happiness, he thinks of how Ennis couldn't hold him then face to face because he did not want to admit to himself that it was Jack he was holding.  And he thinks that maybe they never got much farther than that.  So not only will things not change - they never were quite what he wanted them to be, either.  That's all shown in his face in that final shot of him.  Perfectly.
No more beans!

Offline David

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,097
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2006, 07:24:52 am »
I get two things out of that scene and the one that follows with Cassie again.

1,    Even though Jack and Ennis part after the fight as if nothing has changed, you see in Jacks face that he knows Ennis will never change.   To me, that is why Jack goes up to se his folks and mentions Randall coming up.

2,   Ennis does realize after the fight with Jack that he may lose him.   That is why he breaks it off with Cassie.  It is the first step in acknowledging that he would rather be with Jack than anyone else.   He knows that Jenny and Alma jr. will be 18 soon, then he'll have no ties to Riverton any more.   Ennis is biding his time.   

But just like the flowing water in the streams they camp near, time keeps rushing by.   Poor Ennis, poor Jack. 

 :'(

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2006, 10:29:18 am »
I get two things out of that scene and the one that follows with Cassie again.

1,    Even though Jack and Ennis part after the fight as if nothing has changed, you see in Jacks face that he knows Ennis will never change.   To me, that is why Jack goes up to se his folks and mentions Randall coming up.

2,   Ennis does realize after the fight with Jack that he may lose him.   That is why he breaks it off with Cassie.  It is the first step in acknowledging that he would rather be with Jack than anyone else.   He knows that Jenny and Alma jr. will be 18 soon, then he'll have no ties to Riverton any more.   Ennis is biding his time.   

But just like the flowing water in the streams they camp near, time keeps rushing by.   Poor Ennis, poor Jack. 

 :'(

I agree, David. Or at least I'd like to. I think Ennis' breaking up with Cassie is a sign that he has come to a new realization. At the very least he now understands that he's always going to love Jack exclusively, and there's no point pretending otherwise. Whether he would have acted on that knowledge and finally accepted Jack's offer, I'm less sure. But I'd love to think so.

And I take Jack's grim expression combined with John Twist's revelation as pretty clear signs that Jack had decided, reluctantly, to turn his attentions to Randall. But I think if Ennis decided he was ready to be with him, Jack would have dropped Randall in a second. Sorry, Randall. Jack had clearly not stopped loving Ennis, regardless of whether he was willing to go on as they were.

One more thing about "see you in the morning": Someone, I believe on the main board, had an interesting interpretation of that line. He/she suggested that, occurring as it does as the last line of dialogue between them, it takes on deeper meaning and suggests something spiritual or symbolic, such as See you in the afterlife, or See you when we live in a better world free of homophobia ... Well, the other poster probably put it more eloquently, but you get the idea. (Maybe that person is here! If so, please chime in!)

Offline Daniel

  • Counsellor
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,139
  • I lost myself to him.
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2006, 11:33:30 am »
Finality of dialogue is actually something I'm writing about in the 9th chapter of the current book I am writing. I addressed the romantic concerns of dialogue in the second chapter and it is important to take into account the opposite of the beauty of Eros, the beauty of Thanatos.
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2006, 12:11:07 pm »
Are the concepts of Eros and Thanatos similar to those of Vishnu and Shiva in the Hindu religion, e.g. Creation and Destruction? I'm embarassed to say I know more about Eastern concepts than Western ones.

I'm sorry I can't agree w u about Ennis' reason for breaking up with Cassie, David (not the 1st time we've disagreed...). Cassie wasn't a threat to Jack, I don't think. I really think Ennis was coming to terms with his true nature and realizing that he could never meet Cassie's expectations, low tho they were. That's why he decided to play the cad and just jilt her so she would have the lowest opinion of him (just like the time he went and got himself beat up at the bar on Thanksgiving). As happens so often in these kind of stories, the object of love is just coming around at the time everything falls apart. I can live w that in a story, but I find it heartbreaking when it happens in our real-life stories.

There was more to the original thread I believe, mie. More about what "See u in the morning" meant as their parting words. And it was a beautiful message of hope. Maybe Amanda has it, or I could search in the archived threads. But I think it is more recent than that.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2006, 12:22:19 pm »
David and FrontRanger-I actually think you are saying basically the same thing-Cassie is not the answer-never was. Ennis, as Ennis does, falls into "tradition" relationships-he does not seek them out. And I agree that Ennis had reached his breaking point-the old "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and he said he couldn't stand it anymore. So, maybe it was time to fix it.

 O0

Heathen

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2006, 12:56:08 pm »
Yes you're right, Red. Thanks for finding the common thought. Agree, David w Roux's POV?
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2006, 01:19:21 pm »
David and FrontRanger-I actually think you are saying basically the same thing-Cassie is not the answer-never was. Ennis, as Ennis does, falls into "tradition" relationships-he does not seek them out. And I agree that Ennis had reached his breaking point-the old "if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it" and he said he couldn't stand it anymore. So, maybe it was time to fix it.

 O0

I wonder too if Ennis makes the connection of Cassie with Jack's "short leash". I remember some time back, we talked about the camp fire conversation. "I'm put the block to a waitress in Riverton". I remember some were saying that Jack might have felt like hurt by that, and that's why he started to tell about Randall as his getting back at Ennis, but changing it to the rancher's wife to instead. Cassie may not have been any real threat to Jack, but it certainly still would hurt to think about Ennis being with someone else. So while Ennis himself doesn't see having a relationship with a man and relationship with a woman as being the same, I wonder if he realize that it was still being unfaithful and unfair to Jack.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2006, 03:39:29 pm »
Yeah, Starbabie, I think that Jack was sensitive to any relationship Ennis would be in.  That whole conversation about Ennis not finding anyone to marry yet was indicative of Jack's resentment. Jack flies to Ennis when he finds out about the divorce thinking that all the obstacles to them being together were out of the way only to leave empty handed and heart broken. So, with Ennis never getting married again, or having any kind of real relationship, Jack just feels like WTF-there was no reason for us not to be together. I think Jack had a hard time really understanding why Ennis would not be with him.

Heathen

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2006, 06:00:44 pm »
Yeah, Starbabie, I think that Jack was sensitive to any relationship Ennis would be in.  That whole conversation about Ennis not finding anyone to marry yet was indicative of Jack's resentment. Jack flies to Ennis when he finds out about the divorce thinking that all the obstacles to them being together were out of the way only to leave empty handed and heart broken. So, with Ennis never getting married again, or having any kind of real relationship, Jack just feels like WTF-there was no reason for us not to be together. I think Jack had a hard time really understanding why Ennis would not be with him.

I'm with youx, Roux. That's a good point about Jack probably resenting Ennis' involvement with Cassie. Ennis didn't pick up on it because a) he himself doesn't take his relationship with Cassie very seriously and b) he clearly could care less if Jack is having a fling with a woman. But the earlier scenes showing Jack doing things later echoed by Alma, like beating the clothes, suggest (and I think there's a thread about this somewhere) that there's some tension between Jack/Ennis and Alma/Ennis. And maybe Jack thought that Ennis' feelings toward these women were a real obstacle to the two men getting together (when, in fact, it was just Ennis' reluctance). So I suppose it wouldn't be surprising if Jack felt some resentment toward Cassie. Little did he know how passive and blase Ennis was toward her himself!

Both Ennis and Jack fell into relationships with women only because the women involved -- Cassie and Lureen -- were so willing to make the first move. And the second, and the third. We don't know about Alma, but maybe it was the same way with her. It's hard to imagine Ennis going after her very aggressively, even in the pre-Jack days.

As for Ennis breaking up with Cassie, it's interesting that when they first get together he's drinking alone in a bar, and when they break up he's eating pie alone in a coffee shop. Like he realizes that is just going to be his fate -- being by himself between meetings with Jack. I too would like to think he has decided to fix things, though.


Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 246
  • Ennis and Jack are Forever
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2006, 01:04:18 am »
I remember a post on IMDB where someone mentioned "See you in the morning" have a possible symbolic meaning and I think that's very touching, elegant, and beautiful.

I am unsure what I believe happened between Ennis and Jack between their wrenching sobs and the time Ennis drove away. I imagined they cried into each others arms for quite a long time.

I like to think that Ennis ditching Cassie was a stepping stone towards starting a life with Jack, as a result of what Jack had said to him. But, by then, it was too late because Jack is dead. I think Jack would've gone on the November trip with Ennis and never really been able to leave him behind.
If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
We missed out on each other now


R.I.P. Heath Ledger

Offline twistedude

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,430
  • "It's nobody's business but ours."
    • "every sort of organized noise"
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2006, 02:11:34 am »
I just wrote 3 paragraphs on this subject, and it blew away...

I think we have to remember that before the ugly confrontation that morning, Jack said "I did ONCE,"--he no longer has the hope of a life together with Ennis, only the longing and dissatisfaction.

I think Ennis ditched Cssie because he felt the relationshikp was unfasir to her and to himself, not because of anything he may have felt for Jack.

I think that it is only at the end, after Jack has died or been murdered, and his daughter has told him that she is about to get married, that Ennis realizes that he loves Jack--just as his daughter loves, and not in some sick, twisted way that he can't even put a name to. And if that flashback "see you in the morning," is to resonate with us, it is only then, not earlier.

It is Jack's death that brings about the reconciiation, not the death that interrupts it. That is the tragedy.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 02:15:35 am by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline mlewisusc

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2006, 06:38:43 am »
I went back and looked for the thread but couldn't find it. Did you copy the entire thing of just the OP? I'd love to read the whole thing.

 O0

No, RouxB, unfortunately, only copied this post.  Foolish, now, in hindsight.

Just had some whiskey, folks (had a large Poker tournament at my house tonight) and I find myself wanting to respond to many of the posts above. 

I think I basically agree with Julie (and others) above - Ennis cut Cassie off because he knew he couldn't "be" for her - but he wasn't about to take up with Jack. 

And we're back to my basic fascination with the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the Film and the Story in this way - the look on Jack's face as Ennis drives away (so beautifully and painfully contrasted with the look on his face in the flashback as Ennis rides away) seems so different to me than the "let be, let be" that Jack (apparently) thinks to himself after stirring the memory of the HUG and after "torquing things back."  I see this difference as fundamental until I contemplate the fact that Jack had said something to his folks about the "ranch neighbor" after he and Ennis parted that spring. . . so maybe the look on Jack's face is not so out of place (vis a vis the Story) after all? 

As to the notion that "see you in the morning" refers to the afterlife or some such, I believe the poster from IMDB (whom Ellemeno tells me is here!) implied as much in her post OR explicitly said such on another post on that IMDB thread from which I drew this post, if y'all can follow me here.  This leads me to another set of contemplations that just came up, so don't take this as "mark doctrine" but I don't find much in the Story in terms of fatefully weighted words, e.g., words a speaker says which carry far more import in light of the author/reader's knowledge of the speaking character's fate than would otherwise apply to the spoken words themselves.  There must be a literary term for what I'm describing here and I just can't come up with it (or perhaps never learned to recognize it by that name).  Basically, although there is a LOT of emotional import in the story placed on simple things the characters say (e.g., "sure seem in one piece to me," "Jack, I swear," etc.) I don't see much where the characters themselves are "oracles" of their future, except in the strictly emotional sense - as another example, Ennis saying "if you can't fix it, you got a stand it" and then "standing" it for 16 years.  By the motel scene in the Story, we know the relationship is doomed, but does anything either of them say really tell us HOW the doom will work out?  If we got strong hints, I would call that (I suppose) oracular statements - which in the context of the story mean more than they say.  I don't get that from many or really any other conversations in the Story.  Thus, as much as I LOVE the idea that the flashback dialog pointed out something about their being together in the "afterlife" or similar, I just don't think it fits the Story.

Is anyone down with this ramble?  As soon as possible I will watch the DVD again (or read the screenplay) and see if I catch any of the characters speaking "oracularly."

All this is not to say, BTW, that Ang Lee did not put a TREMENDOUS amount of foreshadowing and (clearly) symbolic events into the film. 

 :-\
"Good enough place" - Ennis del Mar

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2006, 10:34:36 am »
Mark, the poster you quote in your first post is Amanda. I'm the one who invited her here from imdb, so I will try to get word to her that her presence would be helpful in this thread!

Coincidentally, I ran into her last night on another thread where people were discussing the sense of rivalry between Jack and Alma that I alluded to in a post above. I can't remember if she's the one who discussed the significance of "see you in the morning," though.

On some of these issues we seem to be reaching some "did not, did so" impasses. For example, much as I love Ennis, I can't believe he breaks up with Cassie out of some chivalrous desire to spare Cassie from the relationship. Wouldn't he have done it in a nicer way, then? I think he just gets sick of pretending. Whether it signals a change in his intentions toward Jack, I am less sure.

Nor do I believe that Ennis doesn't realize he loves Jack until after Jack's dead and Alma Jr. is over for a visit. He might not put that name to it, but I think he realizes from the get-go that his feelings for Jack are very strong. And he recognizes the mixture -- admiration, respect, longing, physical attraction, etc. -- that, whatever he might call it, we know adds up to love. Yes, he's very conflicted about the relationship and in some ways ashamed of it, but the way his face lights up whenever he sees Jack, even in the post-divorce scene, does not read "he is feeling sick and twisted right now" to me. What he realizes by the time Alma visits (before she arrives, I think, but he is reminded of it by their conversation) is not that he loved Jack, but that he should have honored that love and made it his top priority rather than trying to deny and underplay it.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2006, 03:59:38 pm »
Oh my,
OK, so here I am!  (I'm amandazehnder back on imdb)  Sorry, I've had a busy weekend and haven't been on the boards much. I wasn't aware of this conversation until very recently.  What a fun thread.  I'm so flattered that people have found this topic so interesting. 

I had almost forgotten about the thread back on the old board.  It's simply called Timing of the Flashback   http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/flat/39899175?d=40776639#40776639
and as of five minutes ago it hasn't been deleted by trolls, etc.

I think the idea that Ennis is breaking up with Cassie/ jilting and ignoring her is interesting to think about after the argument scene.  As people above have mentioned, maybe he really is worried about the possibility of Jack leaving him.  That "I did once" comment and pessimism (so unlike Jack) probably really scared him.  I'm guessing that as an orphan he's terrified of abandonment (even if he truly is a loner-type, it seems likely that he also has a somewhat contradictory fear of abandonment).  And, I certainly don't think Jack and Ennis broke up.  I think Jack is too self-aware to even really think of that.  That's how I interpret the "I wish I knew how to quit you" line.  He really knows this isn't possible.  The fact that it's Ennis who sends the postcard (the returned card) hoping that November will still work is sweetly indicative to me of how much he wants to make sure that things have been smoothed out with Jack. 

The subtle shift in the placement of the flashback scene in the film vs. book makes it seem so much more complicated in the film.  To create that timing gap and to leave us wondering how Jack and Ennis left things is just *brilliant* torture for the audience.  The famous ambiguity of the film shines here.  The filmmakers seem to heighten the romance of the flashback by Ennis's open affection and the clear visual sense that he's trying hard to look at Jack's face (at least in profile).  The detail about Ennis not wanting to look in Jack's face at this point breaks a lot of the moment's romance in the book's scenario (at least for me).

It disturbs me that the last line we hear Jack saying to Ennis as they have that intense hug is "damn you Ennis."  That just seems sadly negative (even though the hug is a reconciliation and a nice change of tone from the argument).  The scene would be too devastating without the hug.  The flashback just erases all the tension in it's wistful feeling, it's quiet tone and peaceful romance.  The "see you in the morning" really sounds like "see you on the other side" or "see you in the next life" once you know what's coming next in the film.  I can hardly stand to watch these two sequences lately.  As beautiful as the flashback is... I just can't get through it without crying.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 06:10:12 pm by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2006, 05:32:11 pm »
Latjoreme-If you're with me and I'm with youx (funny), then we must be one together! Ennis really didn't care much about Cassie-she pursued him and it was convenient. When he left Jack he was completely f'ed up, lonely and scared and no longer had the emotional energy to deal with her and her expectations. I don't think he was possessive of her or jealous of Carl the nice guy.

Also, I've never understood people thinking Ennis, and Jack, was unaware of his feelings. It's pretty clear to me, at least, that they both knew how they felt about the other and they both knew those feelings were mutual. I have never interpreted the shirt scene as Ennis "realizing" how much Jack loved him-though he might not have put the name to it, he knew what it was. I think it was more realizing the magnitude of his love-and loss.

 O0

Heathen

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2006, 06:13:47 pm »
What he realizes by the time Alma visits (before she arrives, I think, but he is reminded of it by their conversation) is not that he loved Jack, but that he should have honored that love and made it his top priority rather than trying to deny and underplay it.

Heya Latjoreme,

I forgot to mention before that I think this is an awesome observation.

And, yes, I think this fits nicely with your comment too RouxB.  I think the lovely thing about this romance is that their attraction/ love is mutual.  The issue of them falling/ being in love is not the real conflict in the movie.   The conflict is how they deal with their lives and all the drama that surrounds them because of that love (whether they name it or not).

cheers!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2006, 06:20:59 pm by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2006, 06:39:01 pm »
RouxB, youx and Ix ARE onex! I agree completely with everything you said. And Amanda -- thanks for joining the discussion! -- I agree with everything YOU said, too. (Including the part about the romance-killing line from the story; I'm so glad the movie doesn't play it that way.)

I SO wish the filmmakers had showed what happened between the argument hug and the truck driving away, but like Amanda I think this is another example of their exquisite torture. The "damn you Ennis" I don't mind so much, because I see it as just another way of Jack saying, "I wish I could quit you" -- he's frustrated, Ennis is driving hiim crazy, damn him, but he can't let Ennis go.

What bothers me more is Jack's "I did, ONCE" -- that past tense makes ME feel awful, so I'm sure it couldn't have been pleasant for Ennis to hear. I think, as both of you suggest, that the argument probably leaves Ennis feeling worried and scared. As for Cassie, he just doesn't care enough about her to keep up the charade when he's already distraught and depressed. He has been pretty confident of Jack's love all along, now he realizes it's at risk, is terrified of losing it, but is still paralyzed by his homophobic fears.

Not until the shirt scene does he realize that their love was so great it should have been allowed to outweigh all other concerns. (And Amanda, I also like how mutual their feelings are for each other! Though it seems to defy cinematic convention, which usually calls for uncertainty, in this case their being sure of their own and each other's love somehow makes their relationship more romantic.)

As for the flashback, the circumstances surrounding it are so unbearably sad that, sweet as it is, it is far from my favorite of their love scenes. The contrast between the hopeful promise of their relationship early on and the grim impasse they have reached is just too depressing.



Offline RouxB

  • BetterMost Welcome Wagon & Contributor
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,471
  • ...a love that will never grow old
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2006, 07:00:43 pm »
I put the "I wish I could quit you" in the same category as the "damn you Ennis"-frustration. Up until now I have been all about Ennis and the tragedy of him life but I feel that penulum swinging towards Jack. To be so close to what you want most in the world and yet so far. To have the love of the person you want most in the world and yet not be allowed to realize it by that person, oh!

Heathen

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2006, 07:52:58 am »
I put the "I wish I could quit you" in the same category as the "damn you Ennis"-frustration. Up until now I have been all about Ennis and the tragedy of him life but I feel that penulum swinging towards Jack. To be so close to what you want most in the world and yet so far. To have the love of the person you want most in the world and yet not be allowed to realize it by that person, oh!


Oh absolutely.  This relationship is filled with unbearable catch-22's and what you mention is definitely one of them.  This follows along the lines of the prayer of thanks conversation that sends Jack two different signals and puts the relationship into a nearly impossible dilemma.  Ennis says wants the relationship to last as long as possible ("for as long as we can ride it") but insists on keeping Jack away at the same time.  Other people have mentioned the idea of the "covert contract" between Ennis and Jack, which in unspoken terms demands complete fidelity (thus the anger over Mexico) but the long distances/ lapses in time make this a difficult expectation.  I think their tragedies are about equal, though in different ways.  The rules Ennis imposes on the relationship are, in a very messed-up way,  just as hard on him I think.  As he says in the motel "I'm stuck with what I've got here."  His dilemma involves feeling trapped by his own sense of duty, convention, fear and even protection (I do think that he believes he's protecting both himself and Jack by insisting that they conduct their relationship in extreme secrecy).
 :-\


Now that I have good old imdb threads on my mind, the "I did once..." issue reminds me of that great thread over there with that title.  I remember it was largely about the significance of the use of the past tense here.  Smart.  I hope it's been archived.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline mlewisusc

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 76
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2006, 12:05:25 am »
What bothers me more is Jack's "I did, ONCE" -- that past tense makes ME feel awful, so I'm sure it couldn't have been pleasant for Ennis to hear. I think, as both of you suggest, that the argument probably leaves Ennis feeling worried and scared. As for Cassie, he just doesn't care enough about her to keep up the charade when he's already distraught and depressed. He has been pretty confident of Jack's love all along, now he realizes it's at risk, is terrified of losing it, but is still paralyzed by his homophobic fears.

Not until the shirt scene does he realize that their love was so great it should have been allowed to outweigh all other concerns. (And Amanda, I also like how mutual their feelings are for each other! Though it seems to defy cinematic convention, which usually calls for uncertainty, in this case their being sure of their own and each other's love somehow makes their relationship more romantic.)

As for the flashback, the circumstances surrounding it are so unbearably sad that, sweet as it is, it is far from my favorite of their love scenes. The contrast between the hopeful promise of their relationship early on and the grim impasse they have reached is just too depressing.

"Not until the shirt scene does he realize that their love was so great it should have been allowed to outweigh all other concerns."  Hrm.  Back on IMDB in the old days, I argued to myself (via threads) pretty convincingly that, without the interposition of Jack's death, Ennis NEVER would have agreed to Jack's "sweet life."  Really.  As Ms. Proulx says, Jack HAD to die - both for the sake of the Story, and in order for Ennis to know what he should have done.  Absent Jack's loss to him, he just would not have done it IMHO.  That's why, when you say "hopeful promise" above, I also don't think I agree.  There was little promise, Ennis being who he was.  Up on Brokeback, they had a "one-shot thing" going on.  From my perspective, better to say the contrast between the joy they experienced on Brokeback and the grim impasse they reach. 

I also agree about the lack of uncertainty in their feelings for one another (although I preferred the amount of verbal affection Story Ennis gives Jack in the Motel) however, I want to point out that it was jealousy on Ennis's part that sparked the threatening reaction to Jack's declaration of having been to Mexico.  Or was it?  As has been argued before, it might be Film Ennis being forced to face deeper into his own sexuality.

Lively discussion, Gang.  Keep it up!
"Good enough place" - Ennis del Mar

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2006, 12:50:59 am »
That's why, when you say "hopeful promise" above, I also don't think I agree. ... From my perspective, better to say the contrast between the joy they experienced on Brokeback and the grim impasse they reach. 

I also agree about the lack of uncertainty in their feelings for one another (although I preferred the amount of verbal affection Story Ennis gives Jack in the Motel) however, I want to point out that it was jealousy on Ennis's part that sparked the threatening reaction to Jack's declaration of having been to Mexico.  Or was it?  As has been argued before, it might be Film Ennis being forced to face deeper into his own sexuality.

Lively discussion, Gang.  Keep it up!

I can agree with this, mlewisusc. By "hopeful promise" I guess I meant an upbeat, optimistic mood of the sort people have when they're falling in love. (Though as for actual hope, I bet Jack had it at that point.). But you're right, joy says it as well if not better.

Jealousy vs. homophobia regarding the Mexico revelation? I've been embroiled in an argument about that for two days over on the "why don't they switch jobs" thread.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2006, 10:18:13 am »
Jealousy vs. homophobia regarding the Mexico revelation? I've been embroiled in an argument about that for two days over on the "why don't they switch jobs" thread.

Heya,
I've been reading that thread but haven't been able to bring myself to contribute there yet.  I think it's a very upsetting (but good!) topic.

I think Ennis's anger at the Mexico idea relates to both jealousy and his "internalized homophobia"  in this case I don't think it's an either/ or situation.

It seems particularly interesting to consider his comment about knowing "what they have in Mexico for boys like you..."  I think this was meant to be a little hurtful, but shows both the jealousy and the homophobia.  This comment implies that Ennis wants to think of himself as different from Jack.  Or that Jack is "really" gay while he himself is not. It's a sad thing that gay people occasionally do to one another.  I know a lesbian couple that's been together for 15 years and have adopted a child together (they own a house, etc., etc.) and one of them still refuses to use the word lesbian to refer to herself.  She calls lesbians her partner's "people".  I always think of that situation when Ennis speaks to Jack that way.  It also seems to be a similar type of thing when he says "it's because of you that I'm like this."  But, I think this comment has a silver lining in that it reveals how much Jack is the "love of his life."  The only one for Ennis.  I think Ennis really is worried about Jack being capable of "being" with other men.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2006, 02:51:45 pm »
Over time, I've moved a bit toward the homophobia interpretation of Ennis' threat, but I still view it as primarily a reaction of jealousy and anger. Also, "boys like you" suggests to me that Ennis has recognized on some level what kind of "boy" Jack is and, by extension, himself. Then again, as you point out, Amanda, "you" distinguishes them. I can't imagine Ennis ever saying "for boys like us."

Nor do I read "it's because of you I'm like this" as strictly "it's because of you I'm gay." It also means, "it's because of you I'm so confused and trapped and messed up." It is, in Ennis' backhanded way, a statement of love. i love you so much I'm stuck in this untenable position. (To me, the staging and camera work and music at this moment support this more romantic interpretation.)

Anyhow, that's how I see it. Obviously, not everybody does.

I've commented on this issue so often I feel like a broken record. After all this time debating, this seems to be one of those ambiguities about which people will always have starkly different opinions. I should probably just give up and stop posting about it. But I think we keep going over and over it because, as you say Amanda, it's very upsetting. I have a hard time even watching this scene. Yet I have this semi-conscious and totally irrational feeling that if we keep talking and talking, maybe we can somehow work out the problem and get Ennis and Jack back together.


Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2006, 03:19:47 pm »
You all are so articulate and persuasive that every time I read a post, I agree with that POV, and they can't all be right! Or maybe they can. I'm so mixed up now I don't know what's right or wrong. I feel like Jack, don't know if I am looking down at the earth or up in the sky, and I feel like I could drown in it! Now, um, to address the matter at hand...well I'll just try to focus on the "Damn you Ennis" comment and hope the world stops spinning around me (honest to God, I haven't had so much as a cup of coffee or a drop of whiskey this a.m., I think I am suffering from chat overload!) Cursing at each other was just code for "I love you" don't give it no thought...but I think the real reason Jack said that was because he had just made his mind up to move on, and then Ennis collapsed and they were back in each others' arms and he knew he could never leave him. I have more to say on this with your inspiration but this is all I can put words together about right now.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline starboardlight

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,127
    • nipith.com
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2006, 03:28:34 pm »
Nor do I read "it's because of you I'm like this" as strictly "it's because of you I'm gay." It also means, "it's because of you I'm so confused and trapped and messed up." It is, in Ennis' backhanded way, a statement of love. i love you so much I'm stuck in this untenable position. (To me, the staging and camera work and music at this moment support this more romantic interpretation.)

yeah me too. i read to be as much a statement of love as "I wish I knew how to quit you."
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline luigival

  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2006, 03:31:57 pm »
What a wonderful post! It gave me so many more insights into this movie. Thanks to all, especially to Amanda who started it all.
They were two friends of mine

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: An interesting thread from the main IMDB board . . .
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2006, 08:16:37 pm »
Cursing at each other was just code for "I love you" don't give it no thought...

This is just awesome Front-Ranger.  :D
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie