Author Topic: Question about a particular scene  (Read 10185 times)

Offline ednbarby

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Question about a particular scene
« on: April 22, 2006, 04:36:05 pm »
In lo my nine (so far) viewings, it's never occurred to me to ask this question.  But a friend who'd just seen it for only the second time (first on DVD) the other day and who loves it, too, asked me this, and I wasn't able to answer:  "Why do you think they had that cowboy walk by Ennis while he was dry-heaving and sobbing - wasn't it poignant enough without its being interrupted like that?"

The only answer I've been able to come up with since is that maybe Larry and Diana (or was it Ang?  I don't know if it's in the screenplay but I know it isn't in the short story) wanted to give everything significant a sense that someone was always watching - as Aguirre was watching and Alma later, too?  Or was it just simply a dramatic device?  I do think he makes a good point - that the scene and the acting were believable and strong enough that it was unnecessary.

What are your thoughts?
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Offline hermitdave

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 04:54:13 pm »
All the reasons you listed make sense as to why the cowboy is walking by. Maybe Ang wanted to show another example of how repressed,angry, and afraid Ennis is of showing his real feelings. After all the cowboy may have stopped out of sincere concern-to ask if Ennis was o.k. But before he could say anything, Ennis rebuffed him and drove him away. He was off the mountain, back in the real world. even on a mostly deserted street-he had to pull himself together, push those feelings back down- or people would "know".
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Offline David

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2006, 05:00:01 pm »
Oh I think having that guy spot Ennis having his ...uh,  panic attack?  was important.

Much like many of Ennis's "loss of control" scenes, he reacts with an outburst of anger.

"What the F*ck are you looking at!?"   So very typical of Ennis.   So very important that Ang Lee shows us that.   It is the first of many such outbursts.   

Like the 4th of July scene,  the post Thanksgiving scene, even the final fight with Jack.  He lashes out at Jack just before he collapses to his knees in front of Jack.   Yup, that scene in the Alley just sets the precedent.

Poor Ennis.   :'(

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2006, 05:02:38 pm »
You're right, hopeful, I think. Even more, Lee shows how his fear is justified. When you have to let your feelings out, be vulnerable, is just when the danger of being found out is greatest. It is also one of the earliest examples of Ennis lashing out with anger and violence to cover his fear and to distract people from "coming to know those things" about him.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2006, 06:34:41 pm »
Thanks, everyone.  Excellent points, all.  I'll pass this on to my friend.  And thanks for enlightening me, too.
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Offline fernly

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2006, 07:56:00 pm »
I think having the stranger pass by is also a device that forces Ennis to ask an essential question that Ennis himself doesn't begin to know the answer to.

Isn't the passerby also wearing a black hat?  the first of the stream of reminders of Jack that will accompany Ennis through his days apart from him, just as Jack will have reminders of Ennis.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2006, 07:57:34 pm by fernly »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2006, 08:05:50 pm »
I think having the stranger pass by is also a device that forces Ennis to ask an essential question that Ennis himself doesn't begin to know the answer to.

Isn't the passerby also wearing a black hat?  the first of the stream of reminders of Jack that will accompany Ennis through his days apart from him, just as Jack will have reminders of Ennis.

Good point, Fernly.  Yes, he was wearing a black hat.  That's something I noticed throughout the movie - men walking by Ennis wearing black hats.  It happens at least a couple of other times that I can think of.  Hmmmm...  Something else to watch for on my next viewing.  :)
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Offline DeeDee

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2006, 08:20:51 pm »
I think having the stranger pass by is also a device that forces Ennis to ask an essential question that Ennis himself doesn't begin to know the answer to.

Isn't the passerby also wearing a black hat?  the first of the stream of reminders of Jack that will accompany Ennis through his days apart from him, just as Jack will have reminders of Ennis.


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Offline Rayn

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2006, 07:26:35 am »
....to show an example of how repressed, angry and afraid Ennis is of showing his real feelings. After all the cowboy may have stopped out of sincere concern-to ask if Ennis was o.k. But before he could say anything, Ennis rebuffed him and drove him away. He was off the mountain, back in the real world. even on a mostly deserted street-he had to pull himself together, push those feelings back down- or people would "know".

 
     As far as why they had the cowboy walk by in the movie, yeah, I think hopefulheart nails it on the nose with what he wrote above.  There is also, along with all the feelings Ennis is trying to control, the great embarrassment of having tender feelings for anyone.  Ennis doesn't know too well how to deal with strong feelings of "love" or tenderness, not for Alma, much less for Jack, a man!  He does “ok” with his girls, but he isn’t all that good at expressing love for other adults.

    Like some men, Ennis feels a display of such feelings for anyone is "a show of un-manliness" and such feelilngs for the same gender are down right frightening, so he does all he can to hide them with a threatening display of anger. 

  A deeper look at this is when Jack & Ennis first get back together, they're sittin' by the fire, Jack has offered a possibility... "You know, it could be like this, just like this, always..."  Ennis says that it's impossible, but it's important to hear how Ennis expresses his fear in words: "The bottom line is, we're around each another, and this THING GRABS HOLD OF US again, in the wrong place, in the wrong time... and WE'RE DEAD."  For Ennis "THIS THING" i.e.  his attraction and affection for Jack is like a monster that can kill him, kill both of them, it is a matter of life and death and that's profoundly scary to him.  Ennis then tells Jack about the death of Earl, the old rancher, an event that haunts and hurts Ennis for life.  He goes on to say that they can get together every once in awhile way out in the middle of nowhere.  For all his bravado and toughness, which is real in many respects, Ennis' fear is so great that he can only risk being in love with Jack if they are "out in the middle of nowhere".  That is deep seated fear and all the more reason to feel sympathy for him and to empathize with him.  I empathize with him.  Why?

    Because it's still "a life and death" thing today.   I cannot forget Matthew Shepherd, nor the young man who was stabbed to death in my own hometown because a group of violent young men just thought he was gay!  He wasn't gay, and yet, they killed him anyway! Slit his guts open with a knife and left him to die.  That was only in the 90s.  And how many others have died like that?  How often do you worry about it?  I know the chances are fewer these days, but as long as there is a chance, it's too much of a chance for anyone.  Part of the reason Annie P. wrote BBM was to generate understanding and tolerance for Gay men, for anyone of our orientation.  She said that in a recent interview.

   Some say, "Look how far we have come."  But as long as anyone of us, man or woman, walks the streets of any cities afraid of being bashed or killed for being gay, we still have a long way to go! That is why Brokeback Mountain is so important!  It shines a light not only on the fact that we can love, but also that there are others who hate us for loving.  I am 54 years old and I'm a little sad to think that I won't see the day when there is an end to such hatred, but it doesn't mean anyone should stop reaching for that golden prize:  Freedom to love anyone, must be a freedom given to everyone. 

 Now, I'm sorry if I got off the topic a little on my soapbox, but sometimes I get carried away and have to say what I have to say; not only for the sake of saying it, but also for the sake of those who know firsthand what I'm talking about. 

Peace,
Rayn
   
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 12:55:41 pm by Rayn »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2006, 08:03:54 am »
Don't be sorry, Rayn.  It needs to be said.  And often.  And you did it extremely well.

You know, when my husband watched this movie, he gasped out loud at Ennis' description of what was done to Earl, and he gasped out loud again at Ennis' imagining of what happened (and what really happened, in my view) to Jack.  When he said that this movie changed the way he felt about gay men, I knew it was these scenes that did that.  I know he had sympathy for gay men and their love for each other before - he is a pilot and has told me many times how he is often the only one that gives the gay flight attendants on his crews the time of day - that the other pilots ignore or talk down to them all the time - but I think he still didn't realize the magnitude of the stigma and the ugly undercurrent of it they still face today.
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Offline Rayn

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2006, 02:34:15 pm »
Don't be sorry, Rayn.  It needs to be said.  And often.  And you did it extremely well.

You know, when my husband watched this movie, he gasped out loud at Ennis' description of what was done to Earl, and he gasped out loud again at Ennis' imagining of what happened (and what really happened, in my view) to Jack.  When he said that this movie changed the way he felt about gay men, I knew it was these scenes that did that.  I know he had sympathy for gay men and their love for each other before - he is a pilot and has told me many times how he is often the only one that gives the gay flight attendants on his crews the time of day - that the other pilots ignore or talk down to them all the time - but I think he still didn't realize the magnitude of the stigma and the ugly undercurrent of it they still face today.

Thanks ednbarby... that's kind of you to tell me that and what a wonderful guy your husband is!  He gasped at those parts, huh, wow, a very sensitive, intelligent man.  I know there are many like him out there, but it gives me hope just now to know there are guys like him around. 

You know, I watched the movie again tonight... (my sixth viewing).  I doubt it will ever lose it's power and impact on me.  I paid special attention to the part where Ennis collapses in the alley after Jack leaves the first time.   You know, he forces so much of the good, sensitive emotions down inside him in the early part of his life, but with age, he gets somewhat better.   Still, when I see Ennis, I see his internal pain.  I see him crying on the inside, so deeply.  Later in his life, and the movie, he is at least able to cry, and that is good.   

I have never understood why we train and teach boys not to express every human emotion and although it's getting better, as long as boys are trained that way, I never will understand.

Yours truly,
Rayn

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2006, 08:12:05 pm »
Quote
...men walking by Ennis wearing black hats.  It happens at least a couple of other times that I can think of.  Hmmmm...

I never really noticed that. I am going to look for that as well. Damn, I love this movie!

And Rayn, well-said.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2006, 11:12:42 pm »
I have never understood why we train and teach boys not to express every human emotion and although it's getting better, as long as boys are trained that way, I never will understand.

Yes!  That's something I'm particularly conscious of with my son.  I'm noticing that he's very sensitive already - he picks up on it very quickly when someone else is hurting, even if it's someone on TV or out in public that he doesn't know.  He'll say, "That lady was sad," or "That little boy is crying!"  Rather than tell him to mind his own business or that it isn't nice to talk about other people or some such thing, I ask him why he thinks the lady was sad or the boy was crying.  And we talk about it a little bit, and I try to get across to him that it's OK to feel sad sometimes and to cry when you're hurt.  Not trying to force it on him or anything, but just letting him know it's OK to just let it be whatever it is.  One thing I've promised myself I would never utter to him, besides "shut up," is "Big boys don't cry."  I'm screwing up a lot of other stuff, I know, but it least he'll be in touch with his feelings.  ;)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2006, 11:17:29 pm »
Ooooo a "symbols" discussion!  And I love the symbols!
 :D


Yes, I think the black hat is a vital clue to suggest that Jack is on Ennis's mind here... and it's one of the Jack symbols that really haunts Ennis.  I remember in my first, naive viewing of the movie I actually thought, for a split second, that it was Jack coming back to find Ennis. Of course, I quickly realized that the guy doesn't really even look like Jack other than the hat.

The black hat here echos the man in the white hat that walks quickly out of the frame behind Ennis as he has his final conversation with Jack that first summer (as they're both leaning on Jack's black truck).  The man that walks behind Ennis seems to be a sign that Ennis has "checked-out" of the idyllic mood of the mountain as he's trying to force himself to conform to societal expectations (and hopelessly trying to detach from Jack... by being a jerk).  Not only is Ennis surrounded by black-hatted men at vital moments of the film, Jack is often surrounded by men in white hats.

Note too the major presense of the wind as Ennis cries and has the dry heaves.  The wind just engulfs him here, and wind/ air is of course Jack's main nature symbol.  So, Jack is *really* overwhelming Ennis here.  My other favorite moment of the wind as a sign that Ennis is overcome by Jack is right after the first tent scene.  As Jack looks at Ennis ride away, the wind really kicks up and seems to follow Ennis all the way up the mountain as he's just lost in thought trying to figure out what has just happened.
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2006, 01:23:38 am »
How have I missed this thread for so many days?

Thank you Barb for bring this up. Like many I had always thought that it was to show Ennis handling his emotions with anger and violence, but you also bring up a good point, in how he is always being watched. At least he feels that way, and the moment is there to reinforce that as well. He doesn't have the space, emotional or social, to allow himself to feel his love fully. The cowboy interrupting his moment is meant to show that. He has to repress his emotions all the time, even when he feels broken down.
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2006, 04:57:14 pm »
Excellent assessment, atz, on how the light-colored hats surround Jack and black ones surround Ennis. Sometimes it takes some analyzing to make up for the parts in the film where Jack and Ennis are apart and through the movie's symbols and nuances, you know that what you're watching is an Ennis and Jack scene.

And I like the interpretation of the man walking by as a reinforcement of Ennis repressing his feelings. That's thought-provoking.
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Offline fernly

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Re: Question about a particular scene - more hats
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2006, 06:36:01 pm »
Another poster, wish I could remember who, noticed that...
 In yet another scene with Ennis confronting feelings he doesn't know what to do with, in the bus station...
in the background there are two men, one in a black hat and one in a white,  buying tickets to travel apparently together. The poster's interpretation was that this was a reminder of what Jack wanted for the two of them, being together, moving on somewhere, in public, together.
And I think maybe it shows what Ennis is coming to have in the back of his mind, since he'd ended things with Cassie, maybe he was getting ready to give something more to Jack, and it's already too late.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2006, 07:05:27 pm »
Heya fernly,
I love that detail in the bus station!  I think it's one of the best black & white hat moments.  I also love the moment when Ennis is dancing with Cassie (while Alma Jr. watches) and the only other couple on the dance floor is a man with a black hat with a woman covered in tattoos.  I see that as another black-hat reminder of Jack.

And, thanks  bbm_stitchbuffyfan.  :)
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Question about a particular scene - more hats
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2006, 07:52:45 pm »
Another poster, wish I could remember who, noticed that...
 In yet another scene with Ennis confronting feelings he doesn't know what to do with, in the bus station...
in the background there are two men, one in a black hat and one in a white,  buying tickets to travel apparently together. The poster's interpretation was that this was a reminder of what Jack wanted for the two of them, being together, moving on somewhere, in public, together.
And I think maybe it shows what Ennis is coming to have in the back of his mind, since he'd ended things with Cassie, maybe he was getting ready to give something more to Jack, and it's already too late.

that was me. yay! someone read that post. hardly anyone responded to that. i thought i was alone in seeing the significant of it.
any who. i loved seeing those two men every times. a hint that may "real sweet life" may have been possible after all.
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Offline fernly

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2006, 08:27:27 pm »
Hey Nipith,
Your observation was wonderful! Should have said so at the time. It's enriched my (many) subsequent viewings of the film.
It's another of the many if onlys...
if only Ennis had understood, put a name to, and done something about the feelings that drove him to his knees in the alley.
if only Ennis had lifted his head, looked beyond Riverton (instead of back through the fear that started when he was 9 and was reinforced god knows how many times in his daily life), and seen two men doing what they needed to do to have a life together.

Fern
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 08:30:14 pm by fernly »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2006, 09:37:43 pm »
My goodness.  Yet another beautiful bit I've missed in *all* my viewings.  Thank you, Nipith and Fern.  Now I have yet another "something new" to look for the next time.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Question about a particular scene - more hats
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2006, 03:50:11 am »
that was me. yay! someone read that post. hardly anyone responded to that. i thought i was alone in seeing the significant of it.
any who. i loved seeing those two men every times. a hint that may "real sweet life" may have been possible after all.

Arrgh!  I'm sitting here racking my brain and I can't remember a "bus station".  I've only seen the film a dozen times and it has been a couple of weeks after all.  But help!  I'm still a bit of a newbie with the symbolism stuff (normally lost on me) but I'm trying.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Question about a particular scene - more hats
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2006, 10:34:26 am »
Arrgh!  I'm sitting here racking my brain and I can't remember a "bus station".  I've only seen the film a dozen times and it has been a couple of weeks after all.  But help!  I'm still a bit of a newbie with the symbolism stuff (normally lost on me) but I'm trying.

Allow me to assist.  The bus station/diner is where Ennis is picking at that apple pie when Cassie and Karl/Carl come in.  There's a Greyhound busline logo over the counter, and the two cowboys are seen standing at it as if they're buying a ticket when they come in.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: Question about a particular scene - more hats
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2006, 10:44:39 am »
Allow me to assist.  The bus station/diner is where Ennis is picking at that apple pie when Cassie and Karl/Carl come in.  There's a Greyhound busline logo over the counter, and the two cowboys are seen standing at it as if they're buying a ticket when they come in.

Aaaaah, so that was a bus station?  Thanks Barb.  I thought I was going crazy, not that I'm not of course. ;)
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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 01:17:58 pm »
The "bus stations," especially in the small towns and wide places in the road along the Highways of the USA, were like the Old American West History days when stagecoaches had to stop and get fresh horses and/or take on or let off passengers and other things carried on the stage.

In those stagecoach stops, one could often get something to eat. In the movie, the restaurant which was used was not exactly one of those bus station restaurants; it looked more like that the restaurant owner took over the bus stop franchise after the local bus station (owned by the bus company) had closed. I have been in those types of places back in the days when I took a trip on a bus, the first was back when I was 5 years old and the last was in January 1992, when I moved back to Tulsa, Oklahoma. 

In the scene where Ennis is eating the pie and Cassie comes in with her current boyfriend, I am at a loss where they were headed when she saw Ennis at the table. Since they were going to the back of the building on purpose, were they going to use the restrooms first?

Offline JfT

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2006, 11:28:30 pm »
Good question TJ, they certainly looked like they had a firm destination in mind.

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2006, 07:38:44 pm »
bump for a common question asked about this film.
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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2006, 01:04:43 am »
"Why do you think they had that cowboy walk by Ennis while he was dry-heaving and sobbing - wasn't it poignant enough without its being interrupted like that?"

In my newbie perception (I have seen BBM only one time and I am completely overwhelmed) - I thought that having another cowboy walk by with a black hat was a rather "mean" visual-perceptual trick played by the producers. I was so completely focused on Ennis in the foreground that my heart initially leapt with hope during those initial nanoseconds when I saw the black hat figure in the background  -  I believed in those initial seconds that Jack had turned the truck around and had come back for Ennis. I recall thinking great - what an opportune moment for Jack to see Ennis's vulnerability - the most opportune moment for them to reconnect - in contrast to the horribly awkward and constrained departure.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2006, 01:13:18 am »
"Why do you think they had that cowboy walk by Ennis while he was dry-heaving and sobbing - wasn't it poignant enough without its being interrupted like that?"

In my newbie perception (I have seen BBM only one time and I am completely overwhelmed) - I thought that having another cowboy walk by with a black hat was a rather "mean" visual-perceptual trick played by the producers. I was so completely focused on Ennis in the foreground that my heart initially leapt with hope during those initial nanoseconds when I saw the black hat figure in the background   -  I believed in those initial seconds that Jack had turned the truck around and had come back for Ennis. I recall thinking great - what an opportune moment for Jack to see Ennis's vulnerability - the most opportune moment for them to reconnect - in contrast to the horribly awkward and constrained departure.

My heart still leaps everytime I watch that scene too. I know it won't be Jack walking by, but I always keep hoping.  :'(
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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2006, 01:46:23 am »
My heart still leaps everytime I watch that scene too. I know it won't be Jack walking by, but I always keep hoping.  :'(

If so - BBM might definitely have a very different ending!  :)
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2006, 02:00:20 am »
If so - BBM might definitely have a very different ending!  :)

Yes, I suppose it would, wouldn't it?

I wonder if anyone has written any fanfic from this point of view? It would be interesting to read other's ideas of what they think would have happened if Jack had turned around.

It could be a very interesting read!  :D
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mvansand76

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Re: Question about a particular scene
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2006, 07:53:31 am »
Yes, I suppose it would, wouldn't it?

I wonder if anyone has written any fanfic from this point of view? It would be interesting to read other's ideas of what they think would have happened if Jack had turned around.

It could be a very interesting read!  :D

Helen (one-of-one) wrote one, it's called Some Sweet Life, and it's on the fanfiction board! It's not finished yet, and I have been begging Helen to continue the story!  :)