Author Topic: Exactly WHEN does Jack decide.. th 1st tent scene..is gonna be th 1s tent scene?  (Read 22569 times)

Offline twistedude

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I guess we're pretty much agreed that Jack has been cruising Ennis, since, maybe the first time he laid eyes on him. He takes one look at Ennis, and drapes his body beautifully over the side of the truck...but there is no reaction. Calls for a change in plans, or a plan, or a postponement of a plan--or what? Exactly when does Jack decide...to move?


1) ignorant talk about the Petecost leads to Ennis saying "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity." Is it then?

2) Seems pretty matter-of-fact when he brings Ennis a blanket and says "You'd be better off sleeping in the tent."

3) Ditto, when he's lying alone in the tent with his eyes open, listening to Ennis's teeth chattering and his occasional exclamations. Almost "Can I get back to sleep...jeez, Ennis is freezing his butt off"

4) My choice: after Ennis is inside, and asleep (most likely), he moves a lot closer to him (after full moon shot, shot of white floor of tent--where Jack used to be lying.

The rest is history...or do you think it was all a master plan that started much earler? (Like, for instance, when Jack says they should both be in the camp? Or some other time?)

Hope I don't sound callous. It's pretty obvious: if you are someone with some (no matter how little) sexual experience, and you want someone who has--literally--NONE, you have to seduce him somehow...

« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 02:53:55 am by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline Aussie Chris

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I like the question Julie, sort of flies in the face of all the "first tent scene was unrealistic" stuff.

I think I agree with you and your assessment.  I think it's clear that this was on Jack's mind from word-go, the truck-draping, the stealing of a peak as Ennis washes, etc.  But when we get into the tent there's that lovely little pan of the camera showing how close Jack had scootered over.  But this is where is gets a little harder (no pun).  Was there a master plan?  Did Jack, for example, get Ennis particularly loaded that night so he couldn't go and tend the sheep?  I think maybe.  There doesn't seem to be any obvious indication that Ennis was receptive to such a move while sober, but fully loaded (again no pun) with liquor?  Maybe if it didn't work out Jack could laugh it off as a drunken mistake?  As it turns out, there was no mistake... ;D
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Offline twistedude

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I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT. The liquor may well have been intentional--but then, Jack seems to have gotten pretty loaded himself! He (Jack) seems to have realized that Ennis, no matter how familiar he was with the sexual behavior of animals, had never had sex with--anything--including his own right hand!

Sometimes, pretty serious measures are required--even something  usually considered as dishonorable as..booze. But maybe the whiskey gave Jack the courage he needed as well, and the 1st tent scene wasn't "finalized" (UGH! what a corporate word) untill they were both in the tent, and warm. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 03:21:16 am by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline Aussie Chris

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Don't forget that Jack was extremely good at holding his liquor, and he would have known this.  After all, he didn't have much of a problem standing up and getting Ennis a blanket.  Ennis barely made it back to the fire without falling over.  Jack knew what he was doing.

Ah booze - getting ugly people laid for centuries!
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Sheyne

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Well, there were a few things in the tent scene + build-up that made me think the "getting Ennis trashed as seduction tactic" was Jack's MO. Firstly, as Chris pointed out: Jack was nowhere near as loaded as Ennis.  After Ennis claims he's going back to the sheep but barely makes it out of the campsite on all fours (pant pant), watch Jack.  He's sitting up, fairly alert and intently watching this attempt Ennis makes to leave (which doubles nicely as an excuse to perv on Ennis's incredible butt  ;D). 

Now there are two possiblities we have to consider here: either a) NEITHER boy was terribly drunk and BOTH faked it in order to spend the night together; OR b) Jack didn't have as much alcohol as Ennis (or as Julie pointed out, he may have been better at holding his alcohol), but got Ennis drunk to lower his guard a little.

As soon as Ennis mentions he'll stay in the campfire, again, watch Jack. He springs quickly to his feet to fetch him a blanket - no staggering or tripping. He's quite nimble and actually seems, for the most part, quite sober.  Certainly isn't slurring etc.  Is it worth considering that Ennis may have been pretending to be drunker than he really was, especially if he was picking up on the subtle attraction between he and Jack. There's definitely an interest there, but I'm not sure somebody with such little experience as Ennis would have recognised it for what it was. (Which was heaven, but we all know that!!!  ;D ;D ;D)

And we all know what happens next.  ;)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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I think the "I haven't yet had the opportunity" statement was a clear as a bell signal from Ennis.  Especially since it was accompanied by deliberate, direct eye contact.  It's that very same night that Jack gives Ennis the opporunity.  Also, that little bit of music that punctuates Ennis's little confession here, I think is meant to be a clue to the audience that this line is important (and may even be Ennis's awkward attempt at flirting).

Well, at the very beginning when Jack drapes himself against his truck, he may not know that he got a reaction from Ennis... But, Ennis does take the opportunity to look Jack over and he keeps checking him out with "stolen glances" so to speak.
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Offline Aussie Chris

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I think the "I haven't yet had the opportunity" statement was a clear as a bell signal from Ennis.  Especially since it was accompanied by deliberate, direct eye contact.  It's that very same night that Jack gives Ennis the opporunity.  Also, that little bit of music that punctuates Ennis's little confession here, I think is meant to be a clue to the audience that this line is important (and may even be Ennis's awkward attempt at flirting).

And wasn't there a little noise that Jack makes at this time?  It's not words so I can't spell it out here, but to me it's a cheeky noise almost like a "you don't say" or even a little bit like a dare.

Quote
Well, at the very beginning when Jack drapes himself against his truck, he may not know that he got a reaction from Ennis... But, Ennis does take the opportunity to look Jack over and he keeps checking him out with "stolen glances" so to speak.

Oh there were lots of looks that Ennis gives Jack.  Also, I know it's not the film, but I've been reading the 2003 version of the screenplay, and there are many little references to Ennis "warming up" to Jack, even so far as explicitly saying that Ennis had never enjoyed himself in his life.  Somehow that translated to a stoic glace by the time it was filmed.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Pipedream

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when we get into the tent there's that lovely little pan of the camera showing how close Jack had scootered over.  But this is where is gets a little harder (no pun).  Was there a master plan? 

I'd say, Jack hadn't only scootered over but even wrapped Ennis in his bedroll. When Ennis first comes into the tent he lays down with his own blanket. After the shot to the full moon they are both under one. No plan on Jack's part? Hmmm...
   
 :P

Offline ednbarby

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I think that "I haven't yet had the opportunity" is very significant, too.  For a young man to admit to another that he is a virgin is *HUGE*.  And the direct eye-contact, so rare for Ennis to begin with, is definitely flirting on his part.  Even my husband noticed this and has commented on it since - that that's when Jack got "the go-ahead."  To me, that and of course Ennis opening up to him about his childhood not long before.

Alcohol removes our inhibitions.  It makes us more of what we already are.  Jack knows this, and he has spent a great deal of time reading Ennis.  Tipsy or not himself, he knows with a good degree of certainty that Ennis won't rebuff him when he finally goes for it.  Think of the monumental risk he's taking - if Ennis is straight or homophobic enough as to flip out when he makes a pass at him, he might beat the hell out of him at worst or at best leave the mountain because of it.

I think it's all by design on Jack's part.  Just like ingratiating himself into the camp in the first place is.  I don't think it's getting Ennis to switch with him that he's after in that conversation - it's getting him to invite him to stay.  Like Lureen, he sees what he wants from the beginning and he goes after it.  He's just a lot more cunning about it than she is.  Really, because he has to be.
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Online serious crayons

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Great thread, Julie! I can't believe we haven't hashed this out before, because it's such a key issue, and there seem to be a lot of different opinions. Here's mine: Jack made his decision outside Aguirre's trailer; Ennis made his inside the tent.

Jack is attracted to Ennis the moment he jumps out of his truck, and resolves to look for an opportunity to make his move. He characteristically goes after what he wants, but in this area he hasn't honed his approach much -- just boldly takes his chances. (Later, he tries that with Jimbo and fails.) But he has to wait for the right time. He gives it a shot after the bear incident, but Ennis rebuffs him. So, more waiting. He is encouraged as Ennis opens up to him, perhaps also senses that Ennis is attracted to him. His complaints about the QT camping are partly like his complaints about beans -- he doesn't want to put up with uncomfortable restrictions he considers unfair. But he also realizes that if they fiddle with the sleeping arrangements the opportunity is more likely to arise. And sure enough, it does. I don't see him as deliberately scheming to get Ennis drunk, but he is better able to hold his liquor, so as the evening wears on he sees this may be his chance.

Ennis probably is immediately attracted to Jack, too, but he would never admit it, even to himself. He has trained himself from age 9 to squelch those feelings the instant he becomes conscious of them (I'm assuming he knew before Earl that he liked boys, which made the experience all the more scarring). Meanwhile, he quickly develops an enormous affection for Jack as a friend. He can hardly believe how lucky he is to find someone like this. He's falling in love, though he wouldn't think of it that way. At some level, his physical attraction grows, and though Ennis will not let himself acknowledge it (as when he leans out to watch Jack ride off and then, half a second later, forces himself to turn away), he is also partly aware of it. He probably senses Jack's attraction, too, though he wouldn't let himself think about this, either. I don't interpret "I ain't had the opportunity" as deliberate, conscious flirtation -- I just don't think Ennis is there yet. (You'll think me naive, I'm sure, but I'm not even convinced it's a deliberate admission of virginity.) But maybe it's unwitting flirtation and, in any case, Jack interprets it as such.

So as the night progresses -- the conversation, the flirting, the drunkenness, the cold, the tent -- Jack knows this is his best chance. He cuddles up to Ennis. So far so good. So he makes the big move and repositions Ennis' hand.

When Ennis jerks awake, his first impulse is to go with his 10 years of self-training: denial, anger, pushing Jack away. But then ... he stops. He may be drunk, but his mind is working. Confronted by this powerful attraction, he finally allows himself to consciously acknowledge it. He realizes that he is being offered for something he has always wanted but never in his life expected to have. In that instant, he sets aside everything he has told himself all these years and decides to go for it, to reach out for this one chance. It's a huge turning point for Ennis. That's why I consider this moment (pictured in Julie's jpeg!) perhaps the most powerful five seconds in the movie. He moves toward Jack, grabs onto him and pulls him closer (just as he will do 20 years later by the lake).

Offline Lumière

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latjoreme - Great points!

I don't think that Jack got Ennis drunk per se.  Ennis is not a child, Jack couldn't have 'made him' drink the whiskey if her didn't want to.  Also, Ennis was the very responsible type,  I presume he would know when to stop drinking, especially since he had sheep-tending duties that night.  IMO, Ennis and Jack had been having a real swell evening, sitting by the fire, Jack serenading Ennis with his ..umm..singing  ;D, their relaxed conversations kept flowing and so was the booze.  When Ennis makes the comment about 'never having the opportunity', I figured he was speaking in code ... and Jack very cleverly read between the lines.

I think that Jack was yearning from early on to be allowed to stay in the camp with Ennis.  When Jack was bitching about Aguirre 'having no right to make them break the rules', and "we both oughta be in this camp!", he was indirectly confessing his dire need to share the camp/tent with Ennis.  And then when Ennis offers to switch with him, Jack looks at Ennis as he walks to his horse, he says: "You won't get much sleep, I tell ya that" - as if he was giving Ennis another chance to reconsider and stay back at camp with him.  Of course, Ennis just utters a muffled "ya" and rides off.

I am positive that Jack was always looking for an opportunity to  share that tent with Ennis.  So on 'that' night, when Ennis was plastered, his defenses considerably lowered, Jack saw his chance to get Ennis to stay and seized it!  Ennis was clearly in no position to ride a horse, let alone watch the sheep all night.  Did Jack use the situation to his advantage? Definitely!!  Did he set up an elaborate plan to get Ennis drunk? IMO, no.  He went with the flow of events and tried to nudge things forward with Ennis, and it worked!

I bet when they were actually in 'the act', Jack couldn't believe his azz..i mean..eyes!  ;D
I love that entire scene, it speaks volumes; from their drunken conversation till the 'morning after'.. :)


Offline twistedude

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I think of a much more innocent Ennis than most of you. "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity," was a simple statement of fact; if it had been flirting, it would have been very bold indeed. The little noise Jack makes in response, accompnied by the offer of the whiskey bottle (although, as someone pointed out, it was not the plan to "get Ennis drunk.'  but for both of them top continue drinking), was--really brazen!I agree with the person who said Jack made his decision outside Aguirre's office, and Ennis made his in the tent --between the two pictures below. And the "all systems go" light for Jack didn't happen till they were lying close to eachother in the tent.

One reason I am so devistatd by my inability to find a DVD with a decent 1st tent scene is that I think it's terribly important scene, and represents an enormous translation for Ennis from simple profound friendship to passion. And his face, both in that scene and the one on the following night...I've never seen such wonderful acting.


What Jack couldn't know, but grew to know more and more after their reunion, was that Ennis in some sense would NEVER make the more profound decision (that Jack was the love of his life)--until after his (Jack's) death. That's I think what we call tragedy. O--what I felt for this man all these years is--just love, pure and simple...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 01:38:33 pm by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

rtprod

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I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 

Love is composed of friendship and many other dimensions, so though it is technically correct--that Ennis thought of Jack as a "wonderful friend"--he also thought much more, and Jack just unlocked it at the right time in his life and in the right place.  When you think about it, for any love to flower a certain set of circumstances usually has to be in line -- the right time in lives, the right place, the right chemistry and other forces that are beyond what is knowable.  Sometimes, however, all of those things can be off and if the participants recognize it, even acknowlege the odd ulikeliness of it that seems to make perfect sense, in the right moment, it can be a beautiful thing.  But all the external orchestrating in the world won't make it happen (here on Jack's part, as some have suggested) if it's not inside the other person too. 

*said delicately on eggshells*

rt
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 03:06:10 pm by rtprod »

Offline ednbarby

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I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 

Love is composed of friendship and many other dimensions, so though it is technically correct--that Ennis thought of Jack as a "wonderful friend"--he also thought much more, and Jack just unlocked it at the right time in his life and in the right place.  When you think about it, for any love to flower a certain set of circumstances usually has to be in line -- the right time in lives, the right place, the right chemistry and other forces that are not knowable.  Sometimes, however, all of those things can be off and if the participants recognize it, even acknowlege the odd ulikeliness of it that seems to make perfect sense, in the right moment, it can be a beautiful thing.  But all the external orchestrating in the world won't make it happen (here on Jack's part, as some have suggested) if it's not inside the other person too. 

rt

I wholeheartedly agree with you, RT.  That's what I mean about Jack carefully reading Ennis all along the way.  He knows he's falling for him by the way he opens up to him about his childhood and about his virginity in a way he knows he's never opened up to anyone else.  And while Ennis may not have been flirting with him on the virginity admission, he was *definitely* flirting when he said, "My daddy says rodeo riders are a bunch o' fuck-ups" - just look at the way he looks at him, relishing the reaction he knows is coming.  And I don't mean to paint Jack as a conniving, manipulative thing.  It's just that when you're in love and you're working on a seduction, you do take very deliberate, if tentative, steps.  I don't think Jack consciously "got Ennis drunk," but I think that when you enjoy another's company and you'd also like to explore their nether regions, if alcohol is available and you're both up to drinking it, that definitely comes into play.

Again, I go back to my first love and what it took to seduce him.  It was months in the making, let me tell you.  Most of that time was spent thinking that I didn't have a chance.  But every now and then he would flirt with me in a way that seemed different from how he acted with every other girl.  I'd think "Did I just imagine that?"  But each time, I got bolder.  Finally, we were both out with the usual suspects one Friday night, enjoying the 2-for-1 happy hour at the local watering hole (and I must admit I bought more than my usual share of those rounds), and while he was talking away in his Italian way with his hands, I grabbed one of them as he finished his point.  We looked each other in the eye for several seconds, and then he grabbed mine back with the other hand.  We looked each other in the eye for another several seconds, and then, without a word to each other, we said good-bye to our friends and headed for his car.  The rest, as they say, is history.
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Online serious crayons

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I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.
I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 
rt

Oddly enough, I agree with both of these. I think Ennis tries really hard at first to think of Jack as just a wonderful friend. He also is falling in love, but won't let himself admit it consciously.

People in other threads have insisted that Ennis "isn't in touch with his feelings" and I've argued against that. I think he understands what he's feeling after TS1, certainly by TS2. When he's puking in the alley or bounding into Jack's arms at the reunion, I think he knows exactly how he feels.

But early in the summer, not being in touch with his feelings seems the perfect way to describe him.


slayers_creek_oth

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I agree completely...Ennis thought of Jack as a--wonderful--friend--and that was IT.

I respectfully disagree with this.  There are many reasons why, but in my mind Ennis is falling in love with Jack early in the film.  The trouble is, he has no frame of reference from which to understand it, categorize what it is or act upon it. 

Love is composed of friendship and many other dimensions, so though it is technically correct--that Ennis thought of Jack as a "wonderful friend"--he also thought much more, and Jack just unlocked it at the right time in his life and in the right place.  When you think about it, for any love to flower a certain set of circumstances usually has to be in line -- the right time in lives, the right place, the right chemistry and other forces that are beyond what is knowable.  Sometimes, however, all of those things can be off and if the participants recognize it, even acknowlege the odd ulikeliness of it that seems to make perfect sense, in the right moment, it can be a beautiful thing.  But all the external orchestrating in the world won't make it happen (here on Jack's part, as some have suggested) if it's not inside the other person too. 

*said delicately on eggshells*

rt

I agree rt.....100%

Offline twistedude

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I said "translation," not "creation." I have a funny feeling that if we all hashed this out, with all of us talking, we would discover that what I mean by friendship," you mean by "love."

Perhaps we all go back, when analysing someone else's feelings, to our own histories. I was read a book at the age ofr 2 about sex and having babies, and the words "
love" and "closeness' were uised...but I remember wondering "why would two grown-ups wasnt to engage in a silly act like that, just to make babies?"

I had crushes on movie stars, and finally on boys, when I was 10-15--but I did not know what sex WAS. My fantasies always ended with a kiss. I recognized a sort of restless longing in me, but I guess I thought there was no answer for it.  (I guess i didn't have much of a sex drive because it didn't bother me very much!).

I learned about orgasms--when I had one. So THAT's what it's all about. I was THINKING so much about the damn thing, my boyfriend wasn't eactly sure what had happened to me; I probably looked like I'd gone into a thinking fit.

I have a feeling that Ennis says so little, and expresses so little, that we all write upon him something of our own early experiences with sex.

Still think I'm right, though!

« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 03:38:36 pm by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline littleguitar

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When Ennis jerks awake, his first impulse is to go with his 10 years of self-training: denial, anger, pushing Jack away. But then ... he stops. He may be drunk, but his mind is working. Confronted by this powerful attraction, he finally allows himself to consciously acknowledge it. He realizes that he is being offered for something he has always wanted but never in his life expected to have. In that instant, he sets aside everything he has told himself all these years and decides to go for it, to reach out for this one chance. It's a huge turning point for Ennis. That's why I consider this moment (pictured in Julie's jpeg!) perhaps the most powerful five seconds in the movie. He moves toward Jack, grabs onto him and pulls him closer (just as he will do 20 years later by the lake).

I agree with a lot of what was said here (not just this quote, the whole thread) but I wanted to put in what I thought as well.

I agree that these 5 seconds are really powerful, but I don't think it is just Ennis that makes the decision to go for it in those 5 seconds.  I think that yes, Jack is aware of his feelings and that there has been a slow seduction or build up toward the romance throughout the movie, but I think that night Jack didn't have an agenda. I agree with those who think that the conversation was just flowing easily and naturally and so was the whiskey and what happened afterwards, while fueled by the alcohol, wasn't really Jack scheming to get Ennis drunk so that something would come of it.  It seems to me that, in that first tent scene, when Jack reaches over and grabs Ennis's hand, he is doing it in his sleep and when they both jump up he is just as surprised as Ennis.  There is a moment, in those 5 seconds, where Jack looks at Ennis and, to me, it seems as if he is making up his mind as to whether or not to go any further.  There is a moment of hesitation, then decision, then he reaches down and undoes his pants.  As someone else pointed out, Jack took a huge risk in moving on Ennis and though I do think he was sure of his feelings and was going to go through with it no matter what and had wanted it for a long time, I still feel like there was  just a slight moment of "oh god, should I really do this?" from Jack in that tent scene.

As for the "you may be a sinner but I ain't yet had the opportunity", Ennis may not have been consciously flirting, but he definitly knew he was saying something cheeky, he has this amazing mischevious, slightly embarrassed look on his face right after he says it that I just love! IMO, he was saying I'm still a virgin but would like that to change real soon...

This is a really great thread by the way! Thanks for starting it!
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

-- del Mar Painting, Ch. 48 by b73

Offline DeeDee

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I thought along the same lines as littleguitar.  I think Jack was just as stunned finding himself holding Ennis' hand by his groin.  I also believe Ennis started falling in love as he was opening up to Jack.
Just  after Ennis says he hasn't sinned yet, we hear Jack go "mmmm". His wheels were already spinning.
You could also see the confusion on Ennis' face (superbly played by Heath) as he pushes him away, then pulls him in and will absolutely not kiss him. 
God I love that whole scene.
In America sex is an obsession.  In other parts of the world it is a fact.

Marlene Dietrich

Offline ednbarby

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I agree that Jack does not have a (conscious) agenda that night.  Just as I didn't have one the night I met my friends in the bar and the object of my affection was there.  I don't think I did even as I kept buying drinks - it was more that I liked being with him and wanted to keep him there, and the conversation was flowing freely and easily and we were all laughing our heads off, so why not?  But getting him in the Biblical sense was something that was always in the back of my mind.  I saw a sudden opportunity, I seized it - almost subconsciously, really - it worked out.  Similarly, I don't see Jack actively trying to seduce him that night.  I see the whiskey flowing because they were enjoying each other's company.  And I see what ultimately happens as just being the natural culmination of a mutual attraction where one person takes a chance that he has reason to believe will turn out well.  I guess I've never questioned its authenticity because I've been there.
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Offline isabelle

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What has been expressed so far has been so in such beautiful ways, that I wonder if my post is worth it. But I agree with latjoreme and lucise: I don't think there was a plan on Jack's part to get Ennis drunk. Jack was certainly attracted to Ennis from very early on, and just seized the opportunity when it came his way - their being drunk, especially Ennis, and being inside the tent. I think Jack was not a great planner, but he does seem pretty confident about what he's doing when he leads Ennis's hand to his crotch in the 1st TS. He must have felt confident that Ennis was attracted to him too, or at least took his chance on what might have been just his own interpretation.
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Offline twistedude

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For littleguitar, and others who didn't think Jack made up his mind till they were both sitting by the tent flap, IMNSHO==you're "a few sandwiches short of a picinic"--(picked that up in fanfiction today--I think, not sure). You are saying that Jack, in his sleep, scootches way over toward Ennis, turns slightly toward Ennis, takes his own hand out of his covers, gropes for Ennis's hand, pulls it across his body and down into his own blankets to his groin...in his sleep. Then when Ennis sits up--like a jack-in-the-box, Jack just a fraction of a second behind him--and Jack says "come on!' softly, grabsat  BOTH Ennis's lapels, afraid he's maybe going to bolt, and then sees he isn't, ands drops the right one,  and looks at him with utter calmness, removes his jacket,  while Ennis's tortured face first expresses "what'r you doing?" and then "NOW I know what we're doing"---you're saying there's no agressor here?

It is in the fighting-off, then drawing toward him of Jack's hands on his shoulders, head, with his own hands etc, that Ennis makes up his mind...of course, it's not his mind. He left it in his other suit (Old saying of my father's).

Maybe I can live a few more days without the DVD...

"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline littleguitar

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Hey now, no need to get feisty... can't we express opinions without name calling? 

Besides that, I wasn't saying that Jack wasn't the agressor, or that he only made up his mind right then and there.  I think Jack knew all along how he felt and, like I said in my post before, that there was a slow seduction and Jack working on Ennis the entire time up until that tent scene.  I was merely pointing out that, in the tent scene, there is a moment of hesitation for Jack as well, that I think his boldness surprised even him and that, for a second, he realized how dangerous it could be if he follows through.  As for grabbing Ennis's hand in his sleep, I think it's possible, I'm a pretty active sleeper and have done more than that in my sleep.  And I know I'm not the only one who thinks Jack was asleep or out of it when he grabbed Ennis's hand, there was an entire discussion on this over on imdb before chez tremblay even existed... That is not to say that I don't think Jack knew what he wanted or did not actively move on Ennis, because I think he did.  I just think that Jack wasn't entirely confident about the situation either, and I definitely do not think that he had some elaborate plan to get Ennis drunk then seduce him.
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

-- del Mar Painting, Ch. 48 by b73

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OK, adjusting my moderator cap... Can we please keep personalities out of our discussions.  We all have opinions and everyone's is Valid.  Our Webmaster Phil has one  rule and one rule only for bettermost.net and that is that we treat each other and our opinions with respect and kindness.  No name calling or arguing  is to be allowed.  Thank you now back to our regularly scheduled chat... 8)

Offline fernly

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A couple observations to add in...
when Jack is woken up by Ennis' "hammering," he looks to me (when he's lying there before he speaks and also after he's stuck his head out of the tent and is rubbing his face) like most guys when they're jarred out of a sound sleep, i.e. cranky rather than moving consciously to the next step of a plan. 

However, a few moments later, when Ennis is finally in the tent with him, there is the briefest of (satisfied? anticipatin? just happy and in love?) smiles on Jack's face before the camera cuts away.  That's when I think, maybe, Jack decides.
But, like everyone's said, there're two people in the tent, and Jack is going to be very aware at every moment of Ennis' reactions to everything, and respond as carefully as anyone can in the heat of passion.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 01:36:12 am by fernly »
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Offline twistedude

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jeez..I thought "two sanadwiches short of a picnic" was sort of sweet..no?  NO..I'm sorry. (I remember now where it came from: chapter 7, "A Love Born From Steel"As for jACK BEING careful...and watching for signs from Ennis that he don't like what's going down..he persists through physical defensiveness, but doesn't reach for his belt buckle till Ennis is breathing as hard as he is...hey, we're not doing this just so we can relive the first tent scene, are we?

Maybe, a little...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline Ellemeno

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Hi Friends,

It is Ennis who announces he's not going up to the sheep, but staying in camp til first light (letting Jack know how long he has to make his move).  He doesn't have the courage to go into the tent at first, but he has enough courage that night to make himself available out there by the fire.  BTW, one of my favorite moments of the movie is that groan of Ennis's as he lies down on the ground.  And then he says something like, "Oh yeah, that's good," when Jack puts the blanket on him.  It's a pretty uninhibited thing for Ennis to say.

Offline twistedude

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I think it's fascinating how many different opinions there are...and I keep thinking, it probably has to do with our own experiences...I mean, what do you have, really, to judge the actions, motivations, plans and attractions of others against..besides your own?

The Asian Art Museum used to be the San Francisco Public Library (since 1917)--and we kept the original readingr-room ceiling. Nobody knows exactly who painted it. The head of volunteer services says she thinks it's a good Rorshark Test for the individuals, what they think it looks like: early 20th century arts and crafts, or a 16th century Italian palazo?

Maybe Ennis DIDN'T have to make all that noise...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Online serious crayons

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BTW, one of my favorite moments of the movie is that groan of Ennis's as he lies down on the ground.  And then he says something like, "Oh yeah, that's good," when Jack puts the blanket on him.

I have GOT to get that DVD. I've been missing half the movie.

I don't think Jack was scheming from the get-go to get Ennis drunk and seduce him. On the other hand, I can't imagine him just drifting off to sound sleep knowing that the man of his dreams was finally lying in bed with him just inches away. At that point, I know I'D start doing some serious scheming.

Offline twistedude

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I am TRYING like hell to send my last post--to the Direxctor of Volunteer Services at the Asain Art Museum--without sending the whole page! If I can't, I won't send anything...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

slayers_creek_oth

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Hi Friends,

It is Ennis who announces he's not going up to the sheep, but staying in camp til first light (letting Jack know how long he has to make his move).  He doesn't have the courage to go into the tent at first, but he has enough courage that night to make himself available out there by the fire.  BTW, one of my favorite moments of the movie is that groan of Ennis's as he lies down on the ground.  And then he says something like, "Oh yeah, that's good," when Jack puts the blanket on him.  It's a pretty uninhibited thing for Ennis to say.

I respectfully disagree with this.....IMO neither Jack nor Ennis (especially Ennis) had no agenda that night other then to get some sleep.....one thing led to another and so on and so forth...

I think that they were both very much in love with one another but didn't realize it again JMO...

I don't even think there is a right or wrong answer....like Heath says "It presents more questions then it does answers."...thats the beautiful thing about it...

vkm91941

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Quote
It is Ennis who announces he's not going up to the sheep, but staying in camp til first light (letting Jack know how long he has to make his move).  He doesn't have the courage to go into the tent at first, but he has enough courage that night to make himself available out there by the fire.  BTW, one of my favorite moments of the movie is that groan of Ennis's as he lies down on the ground.  And then he says something like, "Oh yeah, that's good," when Jack puts the blanket on him.  It's a pretty uninhibited thing for Ennis to say.

I'm having another of those twilight zone moments where I am certain we didn't watch the same movie....I didn't see any of this premediation and mechinations that ya'all are talkin about in either the story which I've read dozens of times or the film that I watch almost as many.  Hmmmm maybe our life experience really does color our perceptions in this instance...mine must be alot purer than I thought because I see none of the predatory behaviors in Jack that are described or the sexually passive agressive ones being attributed to Ennis. Hmmm more food for thought.

slayers_creek_oth

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Quote
It is Ennis who announces he's not going up to the sheep, but staying in camp til first light (letting Jack know how long he has to make his move).  He doesn't have the courage to go into the tent at first, but he has enough courage that night to make himself available out there by the fire.  BTW, one of my favorite moments of the movie is that groan of Ennis's as he lies down on the ground.  And then he says something like, "Oh yeah, that's good," when Jack puts the blanket on him.  It's a pretty uninhibited thing for Ennis to say.

I'm having another of those twilight zone moments where I am certain we didn't watch the same movie....I didn't see any of this premediation and mechinations that ya'all are talkin about in either the story which I've read dozens of times or the film that I watch almost as many.  Hmmmm maybe our life experience really does color our perceptions in this instance...mine must be alot purer than I thought because I see none of the predatory behaviors in Jack that are described or the sexually passive agressive ones being attributed to Ennis. Hmmm more food for thought.

Agreed...

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Hmmmm maybe our life experience really does color our perceptions in this instance...mine must be alot purer than I thought because I see none of the predatory behaviors in Jack that are described or the sexually passive agressive ones being attributed to Ennis. Hmmm more food for thought.

Me, I don't think of Ennis as consciously trying to initiate anything (aside from maybe being more open to Jack's overtures than he realizes).

I do see Jack consciously trying to initiate something, though -- in fact, he does! However, I'd hardly call hitting on someone you're really attracted to "predatory." If so, I'm in trouble and so are a lot of other people I know ...

Offline YaadPyar

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I respectfully disagree with this.....IMO neither Jack nor Ennis (especially Ennis) had no agenda that night other then to get some sleep.....one thing led to another and so on and so forth...

I think that they were both very much in love with one another but didn't realize it again.


I'm totally in agreement with Chris on this one.  No agenda, just some wonderfully good feelings that intesify the more they are together, the closer they get, and Jack always taking risks, even when the odds were against him.
"Vice, Virtue. It's best not to be too moral. You cheat yourself out of too much life. Aim above morality. If you apply that to life, then you're bound to live life fully." (Harold & Maude - 1971)

Offline DeeDee

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I respectfully disagree with this.....IMO neither Jack nor Ennis (especially Ennis) had no agenda that night other then to get some sleep.....one thing led to another and so on and so forth...

I think that they were both very much in love with one another but didn't realize it again.


I'm totally in agreement with Chris on this one.  No agenda, just some wonderfully good feelings that intesify the more they are together, the closer they get, and Jack always taking risks, even when the odds were against him.



The first time I saw the "dozy embrace",  it pleasantly surprised me because Jack did all the holding.
He held him in the tent scene (2) and again in bed and again when he collapsed in tears by the lake.  It seemed he was the one giving all the love and to see Ennis embrace him did my heart good.
In America sex is an obsession.  In other parts of the world it is a fact.

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Jack did all the holding.
He held him in the tent scene (2) and again in bed and again when he collapsed in tears by the lake.  It seemed he was the one giving all the love and to see Ennis embrace him did my heart good.

Me too. But also, what about the scene pictured in your avatar?

Offline twistedude

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How did the word "preditor" start getting associated with Jack in this thread? I started the damn thing, and in my first post I said (something to the effect that): I don't mean to be callous. but if someone with sexual experience (no matter how little) wants someone with NONE, at some pont, there's going to be some kind of seduction"

I think we all admire, as well as love, both the guys. But Jack happened to fall in love with a man who is repressed, homophobic, and is as in need of love as he himself is, without having the advantage of Jack's openness of nature.  Perhaps, even, the qualities which keep Ennis from ever agreeing to live with Jack are some of the very qualities that make the Ennis that Jack loves.
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« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 03:03:35 pm by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline DeeDee

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Jack did all the holding.
He held him in the tent scene (2) and again in bed and again when he collapsed in tears by the lake.  It seemed he was the one giving all the love and to see Ennis embrace him did my heart good.

Me too. But also, what about the scene pictured in your avatar?


I think that was a moment of passion not comfort.   I  just keep seeing Jack as the one doing all the comforting.  When I really think about it,  I realize what a wonderful character Jack Twist is.
In America sex is an obsession.  In other parts of the world it is a fact.

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Why Julie, what a beautiful photo! (I'm being funny -- as Julie knows, when I finally sat down to figure out how to make an avatar, I lifted the photo from a previous post of hers.)

Offline DeeDee

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Why Julie, what a beautiful photo! (I'm being funny -- as Julie knows, when I finally sat down to figure out how to make an avatar, I lifted the photo from a previous post of hers.)


I think that is the sweetest picture of the whole movie.. When he can't look him in the eyes, I want to melt out of my seat. 
In America sex is an obsession.  In other parts of the world it is a fact.

Marlene Dietrich

Offline RouxB

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I think I have the same copy of the DVD as Victoria...
I don't see TS1 as being premediated in any way (nor do I think they were cruising each other from the beginning-I think they were curious and that curiousity opened the door for friendship, attraction and then love). I don't think Jack planned to get Ennis drunk so that he could seduce him., I don't think Ennis's declaration that he had not yet had the opportunity was an invitation though I do think he was flirting with Jack-he constantly flirts with Jack. I do think that the growing attaction between the 2 of them finally came to a head (he he he ) in TS1. Laying together drifting closer and closer and then Jack's move. Half asleep with Little Jack fully awake he just did what felt good.

I had a similar experience with my best friend's younger brother. We had know each other all of our lives and there was always some attraction but because he was the "little brother" we never took it seriously. Well, the evening of his (other) sister's wedding we ended up having to share a bed due to a full house of wedding guests. All through the night we would kinda half wake, move closer, go back to sleep. Just before dawn we were about as close as we were going to get and well, the rest is the family scandal  ;D

 O0

Heathen

slayers_creek_oth

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I think I have the same copy of the DVD as Victoria...
I don't see TS1 as being premediated in any way (nor do I think they were cruising each other from the beginning-I think they were curious and that curiousity opened the door for friendship, attraction and then love). I don't think Jack planned to get Ennis drunk so that he could seduce him., I don't think Ennis's declaration that he had not yet had the opportunity was an invitation though I do think he was flirting with Jack-he constantly flirts with Jack. I do think that the growing attaction between the 2 of them finally came to a head (he he he ) in TS1. Laying together drifting closer and closer and then Jack's move. Half asleep with Little Jack fully awake he just did what felt good.

Thats the DVD that I have too...

Offline MaineWriter

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I had a similar experience with my best friend's younger brother. We had know each other all of our lives and there was always some attraction but because he was the "little brother" we never took it seriously. Well, the evening of his (other) sister's wedding we ended up having to share a bed due to a full house of wedding guests. All through the night we would kinda half wake, move closer, go back to sleep. Just before dawn we were about as close as we were going to get and well, the rest is the family scandal  ;D

 O0

Doncha love it when those kids you've known forever suddenly grow up and turn into hunks? LOL We had a summer house in NH (I lived in NY at the time) so I had a group of summer friends that I would see for 3 months every year. The first transformation was "Tommy" who turned into "Tom" and to this day, I still think of as the Aztec Sun God (he was that good). The next summer it was Kevin who had been a dweeb but no longer. Boy, those were the good old days.

As for the tents, RouxB, I'm on board with your assessment.
L
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Offline twistedude

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Yup..they just...drift together...Jack doesn't do anytbhing...and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you-but I've changed my mind about my sister; I'll keep her.

Please look at these two pictures CAREFULLY, LARGE...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline twistedude

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I Hate to fight about this beasutiful movie--I don't HAVE a DVD, just a lot of memories, a thoroughly corrected screenplay, and a bu nch of Youtubues...please stop saying you "have the same DVD" or a "different DVD." It's the same movie, even if all you can see of the first tent scene is MUD,,,and Jack is ALWAYS, ALWAYS the agressor, the comforter, the open one..how can you see it different;y?

Except for the reunion kiss; guess that caught him a bi off guard...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline littleguitar

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Yup..they just...drift together...Jack doesn't do anytbhing...and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you-but I've changed my mind about my sister; I'll keep her.

Please look at these two pictures CAREFULLY, LARGE...

That top picture is actually the exact moment of hesitation from Jack I was talking about in my other post.  He pauses for just a second like he's also surprised he just did what he did, then he goes for it and unbuttons his pants...

And no one is saying Jack did nothing, he was clearly the more open/aggressive one.  We're just saying that there was no elaborate plan on either Jack or Ennis's part.  And while I wouldn't say they just "drift together" exactly, I would say that that is a more accurate description of what happened than saying Jack purposefully got Ennis drunk so he could get him in the sack.  "Drifting together" seems to me to be a perfectly reasonable explaination of what happens when two people have a physical/emotional connection... they are bound to collide, even if the movements toward each other are slow and subtle, even if those emotions are denied.
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

-- del Mar Painting, Ch. 48 by b73

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Well here's my 20 cents on this topic:

They began work mid-May and were brought down a month early, in the middle of August. Meaning they had 3 months together on Brokeback.  They were on the mountain for a full month before the first tent scene. We know this because a full moon is shown their first night (illuminating Jack sitting by his pup tent with the sheep, looking down at the fire Ennis has going in the main camp). And a full moon is shown the night they get it on. So it was a full month if not 2 full months. Plenty of time to get acquainted to watch and wonder to develop a fondness or attraction.  This is NOT about calculation or drifting into something.  It is so much more than that and to not see it cheapens it.

The first tent scene is all about the unleashing of passion, of fantasy built over weeks of longing looks and speculation by BOTH.  I do NOT think they planned it more it was a case of being in the right place at the right time with just enough liquor in their systems to loosen any inhibitions.  The way Jack holds on to Ennis, the way Ennis yearns toward Jack even when he's saying what are you doing..You see the exact moment when Jack makes the decision to go for what he wants when he removes his coat and unbuckles his belt, then the final decision is all up to Ennis and he goes for it.

In the second tent scene.  Actually those moments before the second tent scene when Ennis is sitting by the fire obviously struggling with should I or shouldn't I ...we can see Jack in the tent getting ready for bed ...Ennis looks over and then rises and walks towards the tent..we cut to a bare chested Jack obviously nervous contemplating well he or won't he and then Ennis is there at the tent flap, hat in hand and they lock eyes....priceless moment  Jack is so sweet and tender, Ennis is so shy.  I think it shows their love for each other nicely.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 12:46:17 am by vkm91941 »

slayers_creek_oth

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Well here's my 20 cents on this topic:

They began work mid-May and were brought down a month early, in the middle of August. Meaning they had 3 months together on Brokeback.  They were on the mountain for a full month before the first tent scene. We know this because a full moon is shown their first night (illuminating Jack sitting by his pup tent with the sheep, looking down at the fire Ennis has going in the main camp). And a full moon is shown the night they get it on. So it was a full month if not full months. Plenty of time to get acquainted to watch and wonder to develop a fondness or attraction.  This NOT about calculation or drifting into something.  It is so much more than that and to not see it cheapens it.

The first tent scene is all about the unleashing of passion, of fantasy built over weeks of longing looks and speculation by BOTH.  I do NOT think they planned it…it was a case of being in the right place at the right time with just enough liquor in their systems to loosen any inhibitions.  The way Jack holds on to Ennis, the way Ennis yearns toward Jack even when he's saying what are you doing..You see the exact moment when Jack makes the decision to go for what he wants when he removes his coat and unbuckles his belt, then the final decision is all up to Ennis and he goes for it.

In the second tent scene.  Actually those moments before the second tent scene when Ennis is sitting by the fire obviously struggling with should I or shouldn't I ...we can see Jack in the tent getting ready for bed ...Ennis looks over and then rises and walks towards the tent..we cut to a bare chested Jack obviously nervous contemplating well he or won't he and then Ennis is there at the tent flap, hat in hand and they lock eyes....priceless moment  Jack is so sweet and tender, Ennis is so shy.  I think it shows their love for each other nicely.


Agreed 100% Vic!  Well said...

Offline littleguitar

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I'm with Chris, well said Vic! Took the words out of my mouth and said them better than I ever could!
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

-- del Mar Painting, Ch. 48 by b73

Offline houstonangel88

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Victoria, beautifully put.  agree  1000%

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Yep, agree 100% Vic :)

Offline twistedude

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I can't fight you all...yoiu make it sound like I was saying they had no feelings for eachother, or that Ennis was a moron, or something.

Ennis is NOT "yearning" for Jack when he says "what are you doing?" He's asking a simple question...

Guess i better just get out of here...nobody is willing to admit that Jack is more than an equal partner in what happens..I simply cannot agree with you.

It woud be lovely if we all just came together without anyone having to make a first move...Jack has to make a LOT of first moves!!! And this contunes throughout his short life...surely you're not saying that Ennis is an open, relaxed, homosexual man with a fair amount of sexual experience?

What the hell ARE you saying?

Oh: I wrote a short story. I don't know what to do with it. I'm scared to show it to anyone. It has sex in it only in that it states that sex haopened. It's called "Lureen." I'm surprised nobosdy has written it yet...

"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

slayers_creek_oth

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I can't fight you all...yoiu make it sound like I was saying they had no feelings for eachother, or that Ennis was a moron, or something.

Ennis is NOT "yearning" for Jack when he says "what are you doing?" He's asking a simple question...

Guess i better just get out of here...nobody is willing to admit that Jack is more than an equal partner in what happens..I simply cannot agree with you.

It woud be lovely if we all just came together without anyone having to make a first move...Jack has to make a LOT of first moves!!! And this contunes throughout his short life...surely you're not saying that Ennis is an open, relaxed, homosexual man with a fair amount of sexual experience?

What the hell ARE you saying?

Oh: I wrote a short story. I don't know what to do with it. I'm scared to show it to anyone. It has sex in it only in that it states that sex haopened. It's called "Lureen." I'm surprised nobosdy has written it yet...



Who said that we have to agree?  Thats why its an opinion....and everyone is entitled to one!  Nevertheless its not worth arguing over.....IMO at least...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 01:17:45 am by slayers_creek_oth »

vkm91941

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I can't fight you all...yoiu make it sound like I was saying they had no feelings for eachother, or that Ennis was a moron, or something.

Ennis is NOT "yearning" for Jack when he says "what are you doing?" He's asking a simple question...

Guess i better just get out of here...nobody is willing to admit that Jack is more than an equal partner in what happens..I simply cannot agree with you.

It woud be lovely if we all just came together without anyone having to make a first move...Jack has to make a LOT of first moves!!! And this contunes throughout his short life...surely you're not saying that Ennis is an open, relaxed, homosexual man with a fair amount of sexual experience?

What the hell ARE you saying?

Oh: I wrote a short story. I don't know what to do with it. I'm scared to show it to anyone. It has sex in it only in that it states that sex haopened. It's called "Lureen." I'm surprised nobosdy has written it yet...



Quote
Ennis is NOT "yearning" for Jack when he says "what are you doing?"

I never said Ennis was yearning for Jack.  I said he was yearning toward Jack. big difference in meaning.

Quote
What the hell ARE you saying?

Well..if you read what I wrote I think an intelligent woman such as yourself will see EXACTLY what I'm saying it's pretty plain.

Quote
Oh: I wrote a short story. I don't know what to do with it. I'm scared to show it to anyone. It has sex in it only in that it states that sex haopened. It's called "Lureen." I'm surprised nobosdy has written it yet...

Post it either here on the Bettermost fan fiction board. I would love to read it.

I enjoy your posts Julie, I just don't always see eye to eye with you or at least with the way you express yourself...maybe that's our real difference semantics...

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I agree with Victoria maybe 85 percent. The quibbles being:

-- I think Jack had hoped for a while that the two of them would get together and, knowing he'd have to be the initiator, was looking for the right opportunity. I'm not talking about predation or evil scheming, don't think he purposely switched jobs and got Ennis drunk just so he could pounce. But I do think that Jack was attracted to Ennis from the get-go, was pretty comfortable with his sexuality and so consciously wanted to ratchet up their friendship to a romantic relationship (if Ennis did too, it wasn't conscious). Jack didn't plan that night out in advance, but when he saw that circumstances were right he went for it. I don't think that's untoward -- I would have done the same.

-- Just before TS2 I don't think of Ennis as sitting by the fire struggling with should I or shouldn't I. By then -- in fact, by the time they're sitting together on the hill watching the sheep -- he's made up his mind that he definitely should. But he's reeeeaaaaalllly nervous. Not in a homophobic way, but just because he's shy and this is something he's never done before and he's not sure how it will go but it's very important to him because he is in love with Jack. Again, I would have been the same way.








Offline RouxB

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Yup..they just...drift together...Jack doesn't do anytbhing...and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you-but I've changed my mind about my sister; I'll keep her. Please look at these two pictures CAREFULLY, LARGE...

Thanks, Julie, I'm not really in the market for any bridges just now.

When I say "drift together" I mean [bold]physically[/bold] drift together in their sleep-evidence of their need and desire to be together. When Jack grabs Ennis's hand to introduce him to Little Jack, the fire roars to life.

As for Vic's DVD, just a way of saying I agree with her.

I think there is room here for everyone's opinions... ;)

 O0

« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 01:24:28 am by RouxB »

Heathen

slayers_creek_oth

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-- I think Jack had hoped for a while that the two of them would get together and, knowing he'd have to be the initiator, was looking for the right opportunity. I'm not talking about predation or evil scheming, don't think he purposely switched jobs and got Ennis drunk just so he could pounce. But I do think that Jack was attracted to Ennis from the get-go, was pretty comfortable with his sexuality and so consciously wanted to ratchet up their friendship to a romantic relationship (if Ennis did too, it wasn't conscious). Jack didn't plan that night out in advance, but when he saw that circumstances were right he went for it. I don't think that's untoward -- I would have done the same.

Thats kinda what Vic said....the attraction was there and with the right place and time it happened......so yes I think that Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis but WASN'T thinkin "I'm gonna seduce him tonight."  That make sense?  JMO
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 01:26:58 am by slayers_creek_oth »

Offline littleguitar

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-- I think Jack had hoped for a while that the two of them would get together and, knowing he'd have to be the initiator, was looking for the right opportunity. I'm not talking about predation or evil scheming, don't think he purposely switched jobs and got Ennis drunk just so he could pounce. But I do think that Jack was attracted to Ennis from the get-go, was pretty comfortable with his sexuality and so consciously wanted to ratchet up their friendship to a romantic relationship (if Ennis did too, it wasn't conscious). Jack didn't plan that night out in advance, but when he saw that circumstances were right he went for it. I don't think that's untoward -- I would have done the same.

Thats kinda what Vic said....the attraction was there and with the right place and time it happened......so yes I think that Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis but wasn't thinkin "I'm gonna seduce him tonight."  That make sense?

Right, I agree, I think that's what I've been saying all along, that no one is disagreeing with this... I think it's pretty obvious that Jack is attracted right away and is more comfortable with his feelings and makes the first move... it's just that that night wasn't planned.  They were both surprised when Jack grabbed Ennis's hand
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

-- del Mar Painting, Ch. 48 by b73

Offline twistedude

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I am perfectly happy with--anything anyone wants to say. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I hate having people say I've said what i haven't--Jack is NOT a "sexual preditor," nor does he "plot." But I SAY: if he had NOT taklen advantage of the situation, nothing would ever have happened, and we would all be writing on the "Crash" board..well, maybe that's going too far...


I meant to tell you all-I DID send my post about the reading=room ceiiong, and a moderator post telling us all to QUIET DOWN--to the head of volunteer services at the Asian Art Museum--I removed all the other posts from- it-i think it's page 2. I told her i didn't think she'd be interested in the discussion per se (but I sent her enough so that she could tell this was a HUGE board devoted to such discussions--I said that in my note attached to the e-mail). Her history with BBM is that she borrowed the short story from me, loved it, but didn't like the movie nearly as well (happens sometines).

I'll try to work up enough gut to post my story...

Surely, you must know how HARD it is to admit that other people may be right, as well as you?

Am I goinbg to open a whole new can of worms if i say "Jews love to argue. They don't mean they hate you, they just like to ARGUE, and in his heart of hearts, ecach one believes he is right. I am a Jew.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 01:47:50 am by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

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Thats kinda what Vic said....the attraction was there and with the right place and time it happened......so yes I think that Jack was obviously attracted to Ennis but wasn't thinkin "I'm gonna seduce him tonight."  That make sense?

Right, I agree, I think that's what I've been saying all along, that no one is disagreeing with this... I think it's pretty obvious that Jack is attracted right away and is more comfortable with his feelings and makes the first move... it's just that that night wasn't planned.  They were both surprised when Jack grabbed Ennis's hand

No, what I disagree is with the idea that they were both surprised when Jack grabbed Ennis' hand. I think Jack started thinking about it at least as early as when Ennis first came into the tent, maybe even when Ennis says he's going to grab some shut-eye and head out at first light. Not when he got out the whiskey, though.

slayers_creek_oth

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No, what I disagree is with the idea that they were both surprised when Jack grabbed Ennis' hand. I think Jack started thinking about it at least as early as when Ennis first came into the tent, maybe even when Ennis says he's going to grab some shut-eye and head out at first light. Not when he got out the whiskey, though.

Well its a matter of opinion and I (as should others) respect your opinion..... :)

vkm91941

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Yup sorry guys we're all going to have to agree to disagree on this because there is clearly a number of us who just do not see this as a planned seduction.

slayers_creek_oth

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Yup sorry guys we're all going to have to agree to disagree on this because there is clearly a number of us who just do not see this as a planned seduction.

Yep....and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that!   ;D

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Wooway! Yeah!

slayers_creek_oth

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Wooway! Yeah!

LOL.....always tryin to lighten the mood ain't you Brandon! 

EnnisDelMar

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Lol yep.

Offline littleguitar

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ROFL nice Brandon... that's my favorite quote from the movie  :P
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

-- del Mar Painting, Ch. 48 by b73

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Yep, it's very useful ;D

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Well its a matter of opinion and I (as should others) respect your opinion..... :)

Thanks, and vise versa. Well then, here is another big mystery on which we were unable to form a concensus.

Back to "sorry, s'alright," anyone?

Offline twistedude

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And I'd like to apologize for the offer of the sale of the Brooklyn Bridge, and the several sandwhiches short of a picnic. Got carried away...

We all love the movie, and, however it happened, we're glad it did.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 02:47:31 pm by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline DeeDee

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Well its a matter of opinion and I (as should others) respect your opinion..... :)

Thanks, and vise versa. Well then, here is another big mystery on which we were unable to form a concensus.

Back to "sorry, s'alright," anyone?


If you watcht the subtitles, you see it says "I'm sorry" and then Jacks'  "its alliright" twice.
But I played it 100 times and you never see Ennis' mouth move.  But you do hear something...anyone else hear it?
In America sex is an obsession.  In other parts of the world it is a fact.

Marlene Dietrich

Offline twistedude

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Absolutely...so it has to be the (more complicated) arrangement of Jack saying both
"I'm sorry" AND "it's all right."

I'm afraid if we follow this..we may get into the same tangle we were in before...excatly the same tangle...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 02:45:57 pm by julie01 »
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline cmr107

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Whatever words are being said (I'm in the three "s'alright"s camp myself), I'm as sure as I can be that Jack is the only one talking, with Ennis remaining silent. You don't see Ennis' mouth move, and each time you hear speaking it sounds like exactly the same voice, pitch and everything. And we clearly see that it is Jack speaking by the third word, so this would lead to the conclusion that it is Jack speaking each time. Just my opinion, of course.

Offline opinionista

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I guess we're pretty much agreed that Jack has been cruising Ennis, since, maybe the first time he laid eyes on him. He takes one look at Ennis, and drapes his body beautifully over the side of the truck...but there is no reaction. Calls for a change in plans, or a plan, or a postponement of a plan--or what? Exactly when does Jack decide...to move?


1) ignorant talk about the Petecost leads to Ennis saying "You may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity." Is it then?

2) Seems pretty matter-of-fact when he brings Ennis a blanket and says "You'd be better off sleeping in the tent."

3) Ditto, when he's lying alone in the tent with his eyes open, listening to Ennis's teeth chattering and his occasional exclamations. Almost "Can I get back to sleep...jeez, Ennis is freezing his butt off"

4) My choice: after Ennis is inside, and asleep (most likely), he moves a lot closer to him (after full moon shot, shot of white floor of tent--where Jack used to be lying.

The rest is history...or do you think it was all a master plan that started much earler? (Like, for instance, when Jack says they should both be in the camp? Or some other time?)

Hope I don't sound callous. It's pretty obvious: if you are someone with some (no matter how little) sexual experience, and you want someone who has--literally--NONE, you have to seduce him somehow...


Jack was attracted to Ennis the first time he saw him: when they're at the trailer waiting for Aguirre to show up. But I don't think he actually planned to make a move. I don't even think it crossed his mind, no matter how he felt about Ennis. In fact, nothing they did during the Brokeback days was planned. When Ennis gets into the tent, Jack goes back to sleep. He wakes up after a while probably feeling aroused and seizes the moment. It worked because Ennis was half drunk and probably aroused too. But if he had tried to make a move by kissing Ennis or something, while eating, herding the sheeps or at any other moment, I don't think it would've worked. Ennis was too much of an homophobic for that.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline DeeDee

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I know what you're saying, but I think the minute Ennis entered the tent, Jack made his plans..watch him slightly pick his head up toward Ennis.
I do however, believe, that it was spontaneous.  I think he really wanted him to be warm in the tent, when he first invited him in.
In America sex is an obsession.  In other parts of the world it is a fact.

Marlene Dietrich

Offline Brown Eyes

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I heard the "sorry" really clearly every time I saw BBM in the theater.  It actually never crossed my mind to question it until I ventured into conversations on imdb long ago.  I also always heard it as Ennis's line.

But, the kooky thing is that I don't hear it on my DVD (even though it's there on the subtitles).  I know some people have been complaining about their DVDs being too dark.  Well, mine doesn't seem too dark... the sound seems a bit muffled (and I have a nice TV).  It seems muffled in a number of places... so I've given up on dealing with the "sorry" dilemma for now.  Though, I do still think it's Ennis.
 :-\
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline twistedude

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I should have said i hear three SPEECHES; I 'm not entirely sure that the first is "I'm sorry," but either I've been conditioned to think so, or I really think so. They are all said by Jack, agreed. I think I hear ":I'm sorry," but I'll wait for my final DVD (I've tried 6...)

Should this thread get a new title, so we don't get more hashing of the "when did, etc." thing? Or should the hashing go on?
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline Front-Ranger

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I choose Number One: when Ennis says, "You may be a sinner..."

It's then that Jack gives Ennis the whiskey bottle and he stops drinking, in order to keep his wits about him!

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Brown Eyes

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It's then that Jack gives Ennis the whiskey bottle and he stops drinking, in order to keep his wits about him!

Ooooooooooooooo!!! Nice subtle detail.  I'd never much contemplated how deliberate this gesture of handing the bottle over at that moment!  Very interesting observation Bud!
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Well said as you asked in your 1st post:
           I guess we're pretty much agreed that Jack has been cruising Ennis, since, maybe the first time he laid eyes on him. He takes one look at Ennis, and drapes his body beautifully over the side of the truck...but there is no reaction. Calls for a change in plans, or a plan, or a postponement of a plan--or what? Exactly when does Jack decide...to move?


                 

........

Or is this it ?