Who had Control and Used it: Jack or Ennis?

[chelseagirl]

I read the ss I've watched the movie countless times,  and I can't get over there was streak if ever so lightly played out, was that of control.   At first I felt it was Ennis, he could be dominating SOB when he wants.  Then I think of Jack, he uses sex, putting the idea of Mexico in Ennis's head.  

Like in some, maybe in many relationships there is subtle play for power, and I was wondering if this was the case of Jack and Ennis.

[HerrKaiser]

Interesting question and query. I think that one main reason the story is so compelling and gripping is that there is no control by either man. you are right, chelseagirl, that many if not most relationships have a control dynamic to them, and usually they emerge wherein one person controls "their turf" and the other controls "their turf" as well; they split up the controlling and the responsibilities. Such tends to lend itself to reliances that keep people together, forge familly structures and order, and give individuals the self esteem they need/want.

Ennis and Jack on the other hand were more independent, interestingly transparent, and without pretense. Ennis in particular wouldn't know how to control if he had to. In spite of his working around Alma, I would not define that as controlling; he just used near childlike excuses and insensitivieites to go after that which he wanted.

the awe and beauty of Ennis' view of their relationship was essentially unmeasured, pure, and without reins, as he said. Any controlling was on Jacks' part, imo. Ennis was clearly nervous about having to tell jack that he would miss the August visit; Ennis knew Jack would have a fit, which he did. Hence, that Ennis knew Jack was a bit of a brat, Ennis' natural behavior was tempered, hence controlled by Jack somewhat. Had it not been, Ennis would have announced this August change of plans up front, but he held off due to his fear of Jack's reaction.

[chelseagirl]

I never thought of in that way, HerrKaiser,   I always found Ennis to be most controlling.   He determined how the relationship would run, where they were to meet, "out in the middle of nowhere", how many times they should meet.  I thought Jack was the more sexually dominate of the two, Ennis just couldn't control himself around Jack, "the thing that comes over us". 

When I think of the scene with Ennis changing the dates, he was biting his nail,  he knew Jack would be upset,  I don't think he was prepared for the outcome of it, Jack hit him with both barrels.   

Thanks, your post is great.

[RossInIllinois]

There was never a doubt in my mind on this issue.  In the beginning, Jack Twist is the aggressor in the story. You can easily see this in the opening sequence and dominating posturing by Twist and of course the Penis  touching sequence in the tent.  HOWEVER, as in life the table seems to turn in a strange way. Four years later it is Ennis that attacks Jack at the Laundry throwing him against the wall and kissing him. It would also seem at this point the relationship between Jack and Ennis is now in Ennis' controll  they have sex when Ennis has the time and mostly on Ennis' terms yadda yadda Hence Ennis and his Penis now has Jack by the "Apples" 

[delalluvia]

Ennis had control from day one.  Jack could initiate all he wanted to, but if Ennis didn't respond Jack had nothing.

As one person one time put it, Ennis had control from the time he said, "I ain't queer."  And Jack went along essentially saying "I'm going to play this anyway you want."

And Jack did play along for 20 years.  The relationship was always under Ennis' terms.

[loneleeb3]

Thats a tough one. I think Ennis had control physiclly but maybe Jack did emotionally.
jack was intouch with the emotional side of the whole love affair. Ennis could never get there.
You see from the very first night in the tent together that when Ennis is faced with emotion he comes out swinging and Jack has to calm him. I was just watching the movie again and it really struck me how meanand hurtful Ennis can be. When they come down off the mountain instead fo hugging Jack and kissing him and telling him how much he is going to miss him he tries to beat him up. As theyare leaving Aguirres trailer, Jack is looking for any sign that Ennis cares and gets nothing. Every time Jack tries to get close and mention anything close to having a life together Ennis jot only shoots it down but tries to hurt Jack. Like in the stream, he belittles Jack bay saying "Maybe you can get Alma to let you and Lureen adopt the girls." "Oh yeah, your a great thinker". Then right before the Dozy Embrace is probably the most viscious he gets.
I know it's because he he can't show affection so he channels all that passion as anger. But the look on Jacks face each time it's like a knofe is getting pushed in deeper and deeper.
Thats one of the hardest things to watch. You know he loves him more than his own life but can't ever learn how to show it till it's way to late.

[chelseagirl]

   

But it wasn't like Jack was totally at Ennis's will.   Ennis may have made the call for the when and the where to meet, made the rules of how the relationship was to be.  But, Jack held the sexual  keys, and used it. 

Jack was not above looking for comfort in Mexico, and there was Randall.  To get any further with Ennis, was this something Jack should have used?    He did bring up Mexico in the final meeting, which Ennis told him in no uncertain terms he would kill if ever found out anything about his loverand someone else.   

Was this a card Jack should have played? 

[delalluvia]

   

But it wasn't like Jack was totally at Ennis's will.   Ennis may have made the call for the when and the where to meet, made the rules of how the relationship was to be.  But, Jack held the sexual  keys, and used it. 

Jack was not above looking for comfort in Mexico, and there was Randall.  To get any further with Ennis, was this something Jack should have used?    He did bring up Mexico in the final meeting, which Ennis told him in no uncertain terms he would kill if ever found out anything about his loverand someone else.   

Was this a card Jack should have played? 

Jack brought up Mexico, but obliquely, as a reference (double meaning for him, not Ennis) for a warmer place to go traveling.

I'm not sure if Jack thought Ennis knew what else could be found in Mexico.

Perhaps it had been a subject of conversation about places 'to go' - like Denver - sometime during their 20 years together.  But the way Ennis brought it up in the conversation leads me to believe Ennis found this out this bit of information himself.

So Jack didn't bring up Mexico as a place where he could find sex, Ennis did.

[chelseagirl]

You're absolutely right.  And he knew that's where Jack went.   So why keep quiet up until that time, was that the one thing he couldn't keep Jack from doing?   

[loneleeb3]

You're absolutely right.  And he knew that's where Jack went.   So why keep quiet up until that time, was that the one thing he couldn't keep Jack from doing?   

Yeah, and I think it crushed him.
I have been in that situation. The man I loved came out and started meeting others and I was so mad and hurt.
I couldn't blame him, I wasn't willing to accept things then and couldn't make the necassary changes in my life. I was jealous, hurt and confused. I know thats how ennis was. What he wanted so bad he felt powerless to do and Jack needing more did what he had to.

[chelseagirl]

What I can't figure out, is that Ennis did go to women, Alma, Cassie, he had a way to relieve that sexual tension he must have felt when Jack wasn't with him.   But Jack went to men, Mexico, Randall.   

Both openly talk of women, but if Jack mentioned other men, would that have been a "off limit" topic, especially knowing Ennis tenancy towards violence, was he even wise to mentioned Mexico in that final meeting? 

[loneleeb3]

What I can't figure out, is that Ennis did go to women, Alma, Cassie, he had a way to relieve that sexual tension he must have felt when Jack wasn't with him.   But Jack went to men, Mexico, Randall.   

Both openly talk of women, but if Jack mentioned other men, would that have been a "off limit" topic, especially knowing Ennis tenancy towards violence, was he even wise to mentioned Mexico in that final meeting? 

When Jack mentioned Mexico I don't think it was for anything more than a warmer climate.
I don't think he knew that Ennis knew what went on there.
As far as women, Ennis married Alma cause that is what he thought he was supposed to do.
As far as Cassie, she interjected herself into Ennis life. She came after him.

[chelseagirl]

When Jack mentioned Mexico I don't think it was for anything more than a warmer climate.
I don't think he knew that Ennis knew what went on there.
As far as women, Ennis married Alma cause that is what he thought he was supposed to do.
As far as Cassie, she interjected herself into Ennis life. She came after him.

When Ennis ask Jack about moving August meeting to November:

"do you have a better, idea,"

Jack: I did once.

Ennis: You did once, you mean Mexico, Jack Twist, cause I heard what  they got  in Mexico for boys like you".

This was not a passing comment, but a statement of someone who has knowledge.   Ennis knew exactly why Jack went to Mexico for, and this must have been killing him inside. 

Look, all  I want to know, if anyone felt the same I did when I watch the movie (for millionth time), Though Ennis had a wife, and then Cassie, he went to no other man, and Jack was his true, and only love.    Jack who also had a wife, still found the need to be with men, but they weren't Ennis whom he loved.

The way they lived their lives when not together, was it something that was of a wedge between the two?   Women were safe no threat, but another man was a real problem, it hit right to heart of the relationship. 

Ennis's possessive love for Jack, but his deep seeded fear, kept them from that "Sweet Life", but it also cause that long duration of time between meetings, Jack lived by the rules Ennis set.   But Jack was not a  pope, he acted on his needs. 

Ennis could take him screwing around with women, but  men, no way, that could get him killed.  Does this goes to control of Jack, or was Jack the one with control.  He knew exactly what to say to Ennis, when to say it or not say anything at all.

[Front-Ranger]

My opinion is that Jack and Ennis's relationship changed over time, and the balance of dominance and receptiveness was fluid. At the beginning of the movie,  Aguirre bestowed dominance on Jack and he showed it by introducing himself, leading Ennis to the bar, taking control of the sheep, and instructing Ennis to "git, less we want to sit around and tie knots all day." But the balance began to shift as Ennis perceived that Jack had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew in selecting a low startle point horse. Ennis easily directed the dogs with his whistle and then switched places with Jack as the herder. A crucial turning point came when Jack again couldn't control his horse and Ennis thoughtfully watched him disappear up the trail. Shortly after, Ennis was laid low by a bear, and Jack was again "on top." Jack seized control by overreacting with anger at Ennis's lateness. Then, Ennis shot the elk, belittling Jack's shooting ability, and the dance continued. Ennis seemed to be the dominant one when their sexual relationship began and perhaps that's another reason why he was so taken aback to ride in and find Jack unexpectedly striking the camp. Everything was mixed up when the last day tussle happened and when Ennis was disabled with a bloody nose, that was the last straw. Unable to control himself, Jack, or events, he lashed out the only way he knew. Their subsequent 20-year relationship reeled more and more out of balance as time went on and Ennis called the shots, leading Jack to resort to more and more desperate measures, and finally ending in his death and Ennis's ultimate control over his life, which he found to be not worth living. 

There is a lesson here, that the ancient Way of the Tao sums up very well (which I will post very soon).

[loneleeb3]

When Ennis ask Jack about moving August meeting to November:

"do you have a better, idea,"

Jack: I did once.

Ennis: You did once, you mean Mexico, Jack Twist, cause I heard what  they got  in Mexico for boys like you".

This was not a passing comment, but a statement of someone who has knowledge.   Ennis knew exactly why Jack went to Mexico for, and this must have been killing him inside. 

Look, all  I want to know, if anyone felt the same I did when I watch the movie (for millionth time), Though Ennis had a wife, and then Cassie, he went to no other man, and Jack was his true, and only love.    Jack who also had a wife, still found the need to be with men, but they weren't Ennis whom he loved.

The way they lived their lives when not together, was it something that was of a wedge between the two?   Women were safe no threat, but another man was a real problem, it hit right to heart of the relationship. 

Ennis's possessive love for Jack, but his deep seeded fear, kept them from that "Sweet Life", but it also cause that long duration of time between meetings, Jack lived by the rules Ennis set.   But Jack was not a  pope, he acted on his needs. 

Ennis could take him screwing around with women, but  men, no way, that could get him killed.  Does this goes to control of Jack, or was Jack the one with control.  He knew exactly what to say to Ennis, when to say it or not say anything at all.

When Jack saidf I did once he was talking about the night they were together after 4yrs of being apart. The whole "Sweet Life" conversation. That was the better Idea he is referring to.
When he said mexico he was just naming a warmer climate and a place where they wouldn't know anyone etc.
I don't think Jack thought Ennis knew what went on in mexico. Obviously, Ennis knew more than he thought when he  said about killing hiom for the things he didn't know about.

[loneleeb3]

My opinion is that Jack and Ennis's relationship changed over time, and the balance of dominance and receptiveness was fluid. At the beginning of the movie,  Aguirre bestowed dominance on Jack and he showed it by introducing himself, leading Ennis to the bar, taking control of the sheep, and instructing Ennis to "git, less we want to sit around and tie knots all day." But the balance began to shift as Ennis perceived that Jack had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew in selecting a low startle point horse. Ennis easily directed the dogs with his whistle and then switched places with Jack as the herder. A crucial turning point came when Jack again couldn't control his horse and Ennis thoughtfully watched him disappear up the trail. Shortly after, Ennis was laid low by a bear, and Jack was again "on top." Jack seized control by overreacting with anger at Ennis's lateness. Then, Ennis shot the elk, belittling Jack's shooting ability, and the dance continued. Ennis seemed to be the dominant one when their sexual relationship began and perhaps that's another reason why he was so taken aback to ride in and find Jack unexpectedly striking the camp. Everything was mixed up when the last day tussle happened and when Ennis was disabled with a bloody nose, that was the last straw. Unable to control himself, Jack, or events, he lashed out the only way he knew. Their subsequent 20-year relationship reeled more and more out of balance as time went on and Ennis called the shots, leading Jack to resort to more and more desperate measures, and finally ending in his death and Ennis's ultimate control over his life, which he found to be not worth living. 

There is a lesson here, that the ancient Way of the Tao sums up very well (which I will post very soon).

Wow lee!@
That was awesome! You nailed it all.

[chelseagirl]

My opinion is that Jack and Ennis's relationship changed over time, and the balance of dominance and receptiveness was fluid. At the beginning of the movie,  Aguirre bestowed dominance on Jack and he showed it by introducing himself, leading Ennis to the bar, taking control of the sheep, and instructing Ennis to "git, less we want to sit around and tie knots all day." But the balance began to shift as Ennis perceived that Jack had a tendency to bite off more than he could chew in selecting a low startle point horse. Ennis easily directed the dogs with his whistle and then switched places with Jack as the herder. A crucial turning point came when Jack again couldn't control his horse and Ennis thoughtfully watched him disappear up the trail. Shortly after, Ennis was laid low by a bear, and Jack was again "on top." Jack seized control by overreacting with anger at Ennis's lateness. Then, Ennis shot the elk, belittling Jack's shooting ability, and the dance continued. Ennis seemed to be the dominant one when their sexual relationship began and perhaps that's another reason why he was so taken aback to ride in and find Jack unexpectedly striking the camp. Everything was mixed up when the last day tussle happened and when Ennis was disabled with a bloody nose, that was the last straw. Unable to control himself, Jack, or events, he lashed out the only way he knew. Their subsequent 20-year relationship reeled more and more out of balance as time went on and Ennis called the shots, leading Jack to resort to more and more desperate measures, and finally ending in his death and Ennis's ultimate control over his life, which he found to be not worth living. 

There is a lesson here, that the ancient Way of the Tao sums up very well (which I will post very soon).

But why?  Why such a need for control?   To control Jack, to control the situation which he himself couldn't understand, did Ennis feel to control a situation where his sexual desire for Jack overwhelmed him, his own sense of what was "normal"? 

Ennis is so complex, I think he's one way, then I read the ss or watch the film, my perceptions change.

[Scott6373]

I think it's quite easy to say that Ennis dominated most their relationship with evergrowing control over the twenty years, but when I really pause to think about it, each man had control, respectively,  over the two aspects of a relationship that ultimately direct it:  Heart and mind.

Ennis, in his logical, albeit self deprecating way, kept the reality of their situation clearly in view, and always reminded Jack of it.  Jack on the other hand, knew instinctively, that Ennis needed to be with him, that it was vital to his soul to be with Jack.

When AP said that there can be no Jack without Ennis, and vice versa, perhaps what she meant, was there could be no true love without each man doing what came naturally and instinctively to them.  It's the old yin and yang thing.

[chelseagirl]

Did Ennis discovered this too late?

[loneleeb3]

I think it's quite easy to say that Ennis dominated most their relationship with evergrowing control over the twenty years, but when I really pause to think about it, each man had control, respectively,  over the two aspects of a relationship that ultimately direct it:  Heart and mind.

Ennis, in his logical, albeit self deprecating way, kept the reality of their situation clearly in view, and always reminded Jack of it.  Jack on the other hand, knew instinctively, that Ennis needed to be with him, that it was vital to his soul to be with Jack.

When AP said that there can be no Jack without Ennis, and vice versa, perhaps what she meant, was there could be no true love without each man doing what came naturally and instinctively to them.  It's the old yin and yang thing.

Absolutely!
Thats a great way of putting it. Jack was the heart of the relationship. Not that Ennis didn't love Jack, but Jack followed his heart where Ennis followed everything else but.

[Scott6373]

Did Ennis discovered this too late?

I'm not sure Ennis really knew that he had any control.  He was never one to admit to himself whatever abilities he may have had.  It was probably one of those things, where in his heart he knew what he was doing, but could not stop himself from behaving that way.

[chelseagirl]

I'm not sure Ennis really knew that he had any control.  He was never one to admit to himself whatever abilities he may have had.  It was probably one of those things, where in his heart he knew what he was doing, but could not stop himself from behaving that way.

Yeah Scott,

I agree with you,  but I always thought that experience when he was nine, stunted somehow him emotionally.   Quiet, loner, when he met Jack, he started to have feelings he didn't understand or want.   

He loved Jack, he hated that he did.  Does this make sense? 

[Front-Ranger]

Yes, it makes sense to me, chelsea girl!

Another thing, it's interesting that both Jack and Ennis had traumatic experiences as children, both at the hands of their fathers. But Jack reacted differently than Ennis. Jack didn't seem to have been so scarred as Ennis at the brutal beating and humiliating experience of being pissed on. It would be difficult to try to determine which experience was the more traumatic. I think the reason they reacted so differently was because of their different natures.

[Artiste]

Just reading a bit of you two last comments, may I say that both (Jack and Ennis) hated in a way being in love with each other!!

Does that make sense?? To which degree, was this disliking of loving each other??

Because gay life is a danger to gay men, because of straights who want to kill homosexuals!! I suggest, even to-day!! And it is getting worst!!

Hugs, hugs!!

[chelseagirl]

Jack was far more at ease with who is was than Ennis.  IMO, 

That fact alone was a deep bone of contention between the both of them.   Ennis fought it to a point where he couldn't and had to be with Jack.   

So to me,  Ennis insistence to some degree of control of the relationship was through his eyes a way of protection, but because of exactly that was slowly eating at the both of them. 

It wasn't the outside world, but Ennis fears that blocked the road to peace for the both of them.   

[Artiste]

It was also the OUTSIDE world that worried BOTH Ennis and Jack!!

Look at the fights!! ?? The outside world fought each!!

Look at the fear in both!! ?? They each feared the outside world!! The outside world murdered one, (see the killers of Jack)!! Ennis was to be killed too?? Seems so!!

The world of straights men killing gays because they are gays was, is and will be here!! And it is getting worst!! I fear straights!! Muslim MD killed my buddy because he was gay... since muslim do not accept any gays!! That is only one example!! Plus, our democratic countries are NOT that free for gays neither!!

I pray that as a gay man, I may have such freedom!!

Hugs!!

[chelseagirl]

Artieste,

Believe please, by heart goes out to you and your friend,  I know how it is out there.

I'm only talking of this story,  I am only looking at all aspects of it.   There is so much here.  To discuss, to wonder about.  And to ask questions.   

The outside is there, no question about that.  But the relationship of these two men, their love, their approaches to that love is so full of many roads to explore. 

Like you yourself pointed out Jack's death, Could it have been Ennis's deep seeded fear that may him believe that Jack's death was murder, and not just a tragic accident?   

This story is full, so rich with questions, and many different answers. 

[Artiste]

Thanks chelseagirl !

Jack death was murder! The evidence is there!!

The murdering of gay men then, and now is fact!!

As a gay man as I am with experiences, the movie and now is the same thing!!

The movie shows how murdering a gay man, is common!! Right??

Hugs!!

[chelseagirl]

Artiste: 

Your views of this story I deeply respect, a movie will never explain the reasons or the whys of crimes such as this. 
 
The fear and the danger of this kind of relationship goes straight to what you are talking about.  With all due respect,  it goes deeper.   How this fear can affect someone, and how they deal with their own sexuality.   The charactors in this story are too complex,  and how they viewed themselves, each other over the years  

What made Ennis who he  is?  What made Jack who is was.    Their wives, Jack's mother, Alma, jr.    How it was that they sustain a love isolated on Brokeback for twenty years, and the joys, pains, love, need factored into who they were.   Was there a really a battle for control of the relationship between the two men?    Did Ennis in the end accepted himself, and the love he had? 

This movie shows much more than just a death, but life and how and it was dealt with.  How and whys of  love, and who we love, that force of nature is written all over this film.   Because bottomline  these two men were  caught in something they didn't expect and couldn't control.   They were in love. 

 

[Artiste]

Thanks chelseagirl!

Your views are very interesting!!

Ennis and Jack could NOT love fully, it seems evident because of fear of being in a straight society!!

Also, they could NOT love, because that straight society does NOT ALLOW them to love!! As this would and is a constant battle... if a man loves another man, straight, bi and/or gay!! Then, and to-day... as will be so!!

I have met more and more gay men who were married and stayed with their wives for over 20 to 50 years, especially until their kids are grown up, in the USA and in Canada!! One, last Fall, told me that he waited for that too (he is in a more liberal Quebec society, which is the most advanced in North America for gays and the first to want gay life and even marriage), but that is changing rapidly as more muslims and so-called such (ilsam and other) religions are taking over and who will kill  educated no-veiled woman and gay men!!

I think that Annie suggests this too, that society will be more violent towards gay men as it changes to so-called religions! I qualify such religions so-called as they are criminals under the religious banner, and are too much in Europe now, plus are taking over Canada and the USA, unfortunately!!

Yes, Ennis and Jack are caught in fear and in an ignorant society!! Does not the general society know that Ennis and Jack are decent humans?? But the general population will NOT care less, nor not for their children because we all fear and because we do not know how to combat this anti-human terror!!

Much can be said...
and your views are welcomed.

Hugs!!

[jpwagoneer1964]

Artiste

Did you get the PH#'s of those men that stayed with their families till the kid grew up. Sound like my kind of man! Kind if character I'm looking for! Personally I would have anything to do with a guy ( not a man in my view ) that left his family because he decided he was gay, no matter how pretty or how engaging the personality.

[Artiste]

Thanks all !!

Interesting!

Hugs!

[chelseagirl]

Ironic isn't that Jack died still marry, and Ennis was the one with the divorce.   But Jack wanted the "sweet life",  Ennis still resisted that idea.   Isn't insteresting that Jack who was willing to give everything up for Ennis, stayed with Lureen, and Ennis lived alone. 

Why do you think this happen?  Honor?   Or the reason that Jack instinctively knew that this is what Ennis wanted?  If Jack did leave Lureen that maybe feared that Ennis would resist to the point of not wanting to see him again because this would lead to the danger he feared so much?  To live that life Jack wanted and open them up to danger.

[loneleeb3]

Ironic isn't that Jack died still marry, and Ennis was the one with the divorce.   But Jack wanted the "sweet life",  Ennis still resisted that idea.   Isn't insteresting that Jack who was willing to give everything up for Ennis, stayed with Lureen, and Ennis lived alone. 

Why do you think this happen?  Honor?   Or the reason that Jack instinctively knew that this is what Ennis wanted?  If Jack did leave Lureen that maybe feared that Ennis would resist to the point of not wanting to see him again because this would lead to the danger he feared so much?  To live that life Jack wanted and open them up to danger.

Those are great points CG!
I think part of it for Jack is that he enjoyed the status and the financial aspects of the relationship.
I don't think it was honor cause he's a chucked it all in a New York minute if Ennis ever gave the word.
I also don't think Jack liked to be alone.
Now Ennis, he was different. I think he tried to do what society says you are but just could never make it work because thats not who he was. I think he was a gay man in a time when it was even harder to be that then it is now. I don't think he could process those feelings. The only time he was ever whole and ever happy was with Jack. It hink he would rather be alone than have to struggle in a relationship that was just window dressing.

[Artiste]

Thanks chelseagirl!

You make good points.

May I try to qualify in two ways:
I think that Jack did have a certain appreciation from his wife because she was agressive and there; as she went after Jack for sex... and beauty as Jack smiled beautifully at her and as he was shy in some delicious ways. May I qualify there as present in the home and/or house, but she became nearly just in the house.
She was similar to Ennis, that way, as being just present!

In some ways, Jack married Ennis by letting Lureen lure him in! Ennis did do some luring too, wanted Jack even first sight, as seen in the movie, remember? Ennis even asked Jack for sex, right?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks Lee!

You say that Jack did not like to be alone.

I agree with you. But he was alone in many ways, unfortunately!
Maybe he needed to have more DIALOGUE with his wife as well as with Ennis??


Hugs!

[loneleeb3]

Thanks Lee!

You say that Jack did not like to be alone.

I agree with you. But he was alone in many ways, unfortunately!
Maybe he needed to have more DIALOGUE with his wife as well as with Ennis??


Hugs!

i thnk he would have rather had it with Ennis. I think Lureen was a poor substitiute for what/who he really wanted.
I think it was more of a "If ya can't beat 'em  join 'em" type of thing. Jack had security because of Lureens money but his happiness only came from one place, Ennis!

[Artiste]

Thanks Lee!

You say That Jack wanted Ennis, and Ennis wanted Jack!! ??

That is wishful thinking on both Ennis and Jack's parts, but they acted on that in some ways ONLY!!

Could somehow they could have lived together Jack and Ennis?? You think... eh Lee??

Hugs!!

[chelseagirl]

After the reunion, there was no way I believe Ennis would have let Jack get away again.  After say that, It's a miracle that Jack stayed with Ennis.   For all those years after that Ennis's fears, his struggle with his own sexuality, his insistence in dominating Jack, there was really no reason in the world for Jack to stay with him and to love him the way he did. 

Their need for each other, emotionally, sexually, and even an almost spiritual connection between them, bound them.  These  things sustain a love on a mountainside for twenty years.  And in that tells us about love and commitment to someone you may consciously or unconsciously need more than just air to breathe. 

But all in all, there was subtle play for power, to keep what they had for each alive, but also slowly killing what they need most,  each other.  The final confrontation was example of that.   Jack was fed up with Ennis, felt Ennis was being cruel for giving less and less of himself,  Ennis struggling with his own sexuality, his need for Jack, and fear of losing him to the point of threatening Jack's life was so conflicted he broke down in Jack arms,  there was a lot emotions going on.  More then just surface, but to the core of each man.       Who lost control than and why? 

[Artiste]

Thanks chelseagirl !

Well said... is your view!

Let us not foget that gay men can not exist... then nor now, as even if you are in the USA army, you are not allowed to talk (about being gay)! Being a gay man, I am not allowed to talk about it nor act it, but others (straights and criminals) have their freedom!!

Like in Ennis and Jack's time, it is worst now even to-day... as muslims and other so-called religious criminals kill gays and women (as well as children)!!!

There is no difference between Jack's and Ennis's times as there is now, because violence, etc., are facts against us gays unfortunately too in our so-called democratic, USA, Canada, etc., countries, just because we are homosexuals respecting human life!!

I supposed that Annie was and still is puzzled as to why killings and other forms of violence towards gays are still current!! What is your views on that?

Hugs!

[chelseagirl]

Aritiste:

I'm  female, African-American, and lesbian, let's talk, where do you want to start?  

I chose not live in fear of who I am, I just won't,  too many people of all kinds died for me  in the past so I could be who I am.  

If I  choose to live in that fear, than they won.    I continue to talk of hate, well,  they won and most importantly if I continue to hide who I am, hate who I am, and live in fear of myself than they definitely won.

I for one am not going to give  them that victory.      

[Artiste]

Thanks chelseagirl!


Be assured that I am very, very pleased with your explanation: wants and dos!!

I respect what you say!!

I will gladly re-read what you say... here. I am just back from long trip. Slept in my truck some nights, and am very tired. Must rest. Saw also my brother's wife in the hospital, again!

Your clue on your life and how you live it... is so optimism I enjoy!! I live in fear more and more!!Fighting for my freedom!! (And people's!!) Glad that you do not live in fear!! Any more clues for me not to do so?

Hugs!

[chelseagirl]

Artiste:

Rest my friend, we have all the time in the world.

[Artiste]

Thanks chelseagirl!

You are amiable!

Hugs!