the Earl flashback

[Brown Eyes]

I have a simple question about the depiction of the horrifying flashback of Ennis's Dad walking Ennis and his brother to see Earl's corpse.  Is that landscape actually Death Valley?  I've never been there, but I've seen pictures of Death Valley that look very much like that scenery.   

I wonder this because everytime I see that scene I think of the phrase "the valley of death."  Awful, awful.
 

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I am not actually sure but I don't think so. I thought the movie was filmed entirely in Calgary. Anyone know off-hand what the credits say?

[ednbarby]

Sorry to be a bit OT, here, but I just have to say wasn't the boy who played the young Ennis *perfect* in that scene?  His features (especially his eyes) were a spot-on match, and the acting was superb.  The boy playing A.E. did very well too in the brief shot of him - all very believable reactions.  My husband has mentioned a couple times now that he was really impressed with how they shot that scene - how you saw just enough of Earl - really only a glimpse - and you knew enough from Ennis' gut-wrenching description - to grasp the full horror of what happened to Earl and what happened to Ennis.  He appreciated that it wasn't played out for shock value - that none of the movie was.  Gotta agree with him there.

[Brown Eyes]

This is such a hard scene to even talk about, but it really is well-done and just incredibly powerful.  I think it's interesting that Ennis's father remains anonymous, seen mostly from the back... like some dreadful force luring the children to see this horrible crime scene. 

The landscape seems way more ominous, bleak and forbiding than a simple "irrigation ditch".  That's what led to my question about the location.

I'm increasingly struck by the possiblity that Ennis's father may be a murderer.  At least it's clear that Ennis suspects this of his father.  It's hard to imagine the psychological trauma of not only knowing that his own father is such a vicious homophobe but also having the awful suspicion that his Dad might be a murderer.  And to top it off he then becomes an orphan before any possible justice could be brought to his father (at least he'll never know for sure what happened... no closure) and losing his mother whom we can suspect was a nice Mom (the humming and reminiscing about his mother in the flashback scene with Jack might lead to this idea). 

No wonder Ennis had trouble expressing himself.  He's almost too much of a tragic figure.  I'm not surprised that they left the detail about his semi-abusive brother out of the film even though that circumstance is discussed in the book. 

 

[Rayn]

I have a simple question about the depiction of the horrifying flashback of Ennis's Dad walking Ennis and his brother to see Earl's corpse.  Is that landscape actually Death Valley? 

I've been to Death Valley, driven and hiked around there and it doesn't look like the scene of "The Earl flashback."  The movie credits say filming was done in Canada, but also New Mexico, and it looks to be there. 

I myself thought if looked like North Dakota or Wyoming maybe, but I don't think any filming was done there, so I would bet on New Mexico.   Yes, the scene is well done; very powerful and horrifying.

Rayn

[starboardlight]

This is such a hard scene to even talk about, but it really is well-done and just incredibly powerful.  I think it's interesting that Ennis's father remains anonymous, seen mostly from the back... like some dreadful force luring the children to see this horrible crime scene. 

The landscape seems way more ominous, bleak and forbiding than a simple "irrigation ditch".  That's what led to my question about the location.

I'm increasingly struck by the possiblity that Ennis's father may be a murderer.  At least it's clear that Ennis suspects this of his father.  It's hard to imagine the psychological trauma of not only knowing that his own father is such a vicious homophobe but also having the awful suspicion that his Dad might be a murderer.  And to top it off he then becomes an orphan before any possible justice could be brought to his father (at least he'll never know for sure what happened... no closure) and losing his mother whom we can suspect was a nice Mom (the humming and reminiscing about his mother in the flashback scene with Jack might lead to this idea). 

No wonder Ennis had trouble expressing himself.  He's almost too much of a tragic figure.  I'm not surprised that they left the detail about his semi-abusive brother out of the film even though that circumstance is discussed in the book. 

 

yeah, for Ennis it's not just the trauma of this one event. He spent his entire childhood living with a man that's violent and homophobic, and may well be a murderer. He grew up in constant fear. No wonder the level of repression in him. Poor boy.

Not showing the father's face is interesting too. Often in film and art, anonymity is a symbol of generality. The anonymous character stands for everyone, for you, for me, for society in general. It's an interesting reading that it's not just the father, but it's society that is the cause of this trauma.

[serious crayons]

Not showing the father's face is interesting too. Often in film and art, anonymity is a symbol of generality. The anonymous character stands for everyone, for you, for me, for society in general. It's an interesting reading that it's not just the father, but it's society that is the cause of this trauma.

Good point, starboardlight!

With a potentially murderous father, no wonder Ennis is hotheaded and violent himself. Also, whether or not the dad actually killed Earl, the very fact that Ennis thinks he would have been capable of it says it all.

[moremojo]

I have a simple question about the depiction of the horrifying flashback of Ennis's Dad walking Ennis and his brother to see Earl's corpse.  Is that landscape actually Death Valley?  I've never been there, but I've seen pictures of Death Valley that look very much like that scenery.   

I wonder this because everytime I see that scene I think of the phrase "the valley of death."  Awful, awful.
 

I think almost all the film was shot on location in the province of Alberta, in Canada, though Rayn mentions some New Mexico shooting also, and the scenery looks more consistent with New Mexico (which I have visited) than with what I picture of Alberta (which I know only from photographs and films).

It should also be borne in mind that the setting for this scene is somewhere around Sage, near the Utah border. The scenery definitely looks like parts of Utah I have passed through, so the selection of the site for shooting seems well chosen.

I remember composing a haiku inspired by this scene. If I can find it again, or remember it, I'll post it in this thread.

Scott

[moremojo]

Here is the haiku I wrote inspired by the Earl flashback:

Mouth gaping, blood red
Staining desert sage gully
Love's terrible price.

[Brown Eyes]

starlightboard, I also like the idea that the anonymous father stands for society in general.  Wow, that's awfully bleak though. 
 

In a very uncomfortable way I wonder what, if anything, this scene means to Ennis's empty threat to Jack about "killing" him if he finds out about "all those things" he doesn't know about.  I'll make clear here that I truly don't believe Ennis meant anything real by saying that, and obviously Ennis (as a sweet, overly sensitive guy) is nothing like his dad.  But, it's a very disturbing thing for Ennis to even utter given the idea that he believes that his own father may have murdered a gay man. 
 

[starboardlight]

With a potentially murderous father, no wonder Ennis is hotheaded and violent himself. Also, whether or not the dad actually killed Earl, the very fact that Ennis thinks he would have been capable of it says it all.

and it's not just that he thinks the man is capable, it's spending the rest of his childhood and teen years thinking that his father, who is suppose to protect him, would just as soon kill him for being who he is. can you imagine feeling that way about your own father? Ennis would have lived in constant fear. that would be just as, if not more, traumatic than seeing Earl's body.

[serious crayons]

Oh, you're right, starboardlight! Good point. That is so sad. No wonder Ennis is so skilled at suppressing his real feelings.

You know, thinking about it this way makes it so much more awful than the usual, "Oh, Ennis was homophobic because he had a traumatic experience when he was 9." Living with fear for years and years is so much more powerful than that.

It's amazing how once you start thinking about it you can extrapolate so much about their backstories from a few brief but meaningful remarks.

[Brown Eyes]

I wonder if Ennis would ever have allowed himself to be with a man if his father had lived.  It seems likely that his fear of his father (if he was still alive) might have absolutely paralyzed Ennis even more so than we see in the story as it stands.

[serious crayons]

I wonder if Ennis would ever have allowed himself to be with a man if his father had lived.  It seems likely that his fear of his father (if he was still alive) might have absolutely paralyzed Ennis even more so than we see in the story as it stands.

Bet you're right, Amanda!

The other day Ellemeno expressed what I thought was a really good concept: Ennis' internal homophobic lynch mob. Althoughin context I disagreed with her viewpoint (it was on the "would Ennis really kill Jack" thread -- I don't believe he would) this seemed so useful in regard to the question of Ennis' dad's influence that I went back and found it:

The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.

[Brown Eyes]

That's a very interesting post latjoreme.  Thanks for the quote from Ellemeno. 

I do think that Ennis probably carries a lynch mob around in his head, but I disagree with the idea that he alligns himself with them.  I think it's the opposite.   I think he monitors his behavior, checks himself when gazing at Jack, and especially censors his speech (or performaitively says "I ain't no queer") out of fear that the lynch mob is constantly after him.  In the book, while he and Jack are in the motel he says that if his dad was alive and saw them in bed together his could clearly imagine his dad taking that tire iron to them both.  I think that dead and mutilated sheep set off all sorts of fears in Ennis's mind that he too is now one of the potential "sacrificial lambs".  It's important that this vision of death by predator loss comes the morning after Ennis lost his virginity. 

His paranoia seems to be come more and more obvious as the film goes on.  This is clear in the conversation with Jack where he says he worries that people on the pavement look at him "like they know."  He doesn't say what they know. But here, I think Ennis is worried that people can tell he's gay by looking at him somehow.  By this point, whether he likes it or not, I think he's truly beginning to think of himself as gay.  Also, during the argument scene his threat that "all those things that I don't know might get you killed if I come to know them" is interesting in how he phrases it.  He already knows that there are things that Jack is hiding from him.  He already suspects that Jack probably sleeps with other men to get by between their camping trips.  He just can't handle actually hearing Jack admit it.  Ennis likes to control the limits and character of the state of denial that he lives in.  But, these two moments - the "people on the pavement" moment and Ennis admitting he already sort of knows the things Jack thinks he doesn't know- show that somewhere deep down Ennis knows the difference between denial and some of the basic aspects of their relationship.

I still think it's particularly disturbing that he'd choose to talk about killing Jack given his suspicions about his father.  But, I absolutely don't believe that Ennis would ever hurt Jack.  No way.  The fact that Jack also doesn't flinch, even slightly, also shows that this doesn't really scare him either.  In fact, he pushes Ennis further with the discussion after this *empty* threat.

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Here is the haiku I wrote inspired by the Earl flashback:

Mouth gaping, blood red
Staining desert sage gully
Love's terrible price.

This is really nice, I just recently have been reintroduced to this form of poetry.

I think the scene with Earl's body is important in relation to the slaughtered sheep Ennis finds on his return after his first night with Jack, it is like an omen, a reminder of consequences in his world.

[starboardlight]

Here is the haiku I wrote inspired by the Earl flashback:

Mouth gaping, blood red
Staining desert sage gully
Love's terrible price.

it's so beautifully vivid and heartbreaking.

[serious crayons]

I do think that Ennis probably carries a lynch mob around in his head, but I disagree with the idea that he alligns himself with them.  I think it's the opposite.   I think he monitors his behavior, checks himself when gazing at Jack, and especially censors his speech (or performaitively says "I ain't no queer") out of fear that the lynch mob is constantly after him.  In the book, while he and Jack are in the motel he says that if his dad was alive and saw them in bed together his could clearly imagine his dad taking that tire iron to them both.  I think that dead and mutilated sheep set off all sorts of fears in Ennis's mind that he too is now one of the potential "sacrificial lambs".  It's important that this vision of death by predator loss comes the morning after Ennis lost his virginity. 

Amanda, this is getting ridiculous but, as is *almost* always the case, I agree with everything you say here. Especially the part about Ennis fearing the lynch mob coming after him, not aligning himself with them. (I'm sure there are some people who do both, but Ennis seems like someone who'd rather avoid the subject altogether.)

Oh, and I also really agree with this: I think he's truly beginning to think of himself as gay.  I so agree; the way he thinks about it, in my view, is a complex mix of denial and self-awareness. I don't agree when some people argue that it's only after Jack dies that he realizes he's gay (or that he loved Jack). I think he knows those things all along, and that knowledge somehow lives side-by-side with his denial and homophobia. He has everything so carefully compartmentalized he's able to sort of get along for a while, despite the contradictions: he can love seeing Jack when they're together, miss him when they're not, etc. -- even though at the same time he's constantly paranoid and the whole relationship scares him. He says "Jack, I can't stand it no more" when it becomes too hard to live with all that cognitive dissonance.

The only tiny thing I semi-disagree with is this:
But here, I think Ennis is worried that people can tell he's gay by looking at him somehow.

I bet knowing that his ex-wife, who knows he's gay and is obviously bitter, is married to the town grocer might also be a factor.

[TJ]

I don't have a copy of the published in a book screenplay, either in a computer file or in a real book; but, I do have a copy of the text of the Brokeback Mountain copyrighted by Dead Line, Ltd. in 1997. It is the same as in the paperback book which I purchased.

The movie does not show the mutilated body of Earl in an irrigation ditch, it is shown in a rocky ravine in the mountians. While one only sees the bloodied body of the man with his jeans pulled down, one cannot plainly see the crotch in detail.

While Ennis never knew for sure that his father used his own tool, aka "the tire iron," to kill Earl, he believes that his father actually was involved in Earl's death.

Ennis even states in the motel room in 1967 "Dad made sure I seen it. Took me to see it. Me and K.E. Dad laughed about it. Hell, for all I know he done the job. If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron. Two guys livin together? No. All I can see is we get together once in a while way the hell out in the back a nowhere -- "

Here are some more quotes from Ennis in the book.

 You and me can't hardly be decent together if what happened back there" -- he jerked his head in the direction of the apartment -- "grabs on us like that. We do that in the wrong place we'll be dead. There's no reins on this one. It scares the piss out a me."

"I goddamn hate it that you're goin a drive away in the mornin and I'm goin back to work. But if you can't fix it you got a stand it," he said. "Shit. I been lookin at people on the street. This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"

When it comes to a person having physiological sexual attaction feelings directed another human being, Ennis is right when he says, "There's no reins on this one." That's because one has absolutely no control over toward whom one experiences a below the belt physiological sexual attraction when one is in close vicinity with another person and it happens.

[Brown Eyes]

I'm bumping this because some of the topics in the Double Meanings thead are beginning to overlap with discussions here.
 

[alec716]

Ennis even states in the motel room in 1967 "Dad made sure I seen it. Took me to see it. Me and K.E. Dad laughed about it. Hell, for all I know he done the job. If he was alive and was to put his head in that door right now you bet he'd go get his tire iron. Two guys livin together? No. All I can see is we get together once in a while way the hell out in the back a nowhere -- "

As someone who has worked with physically and emotionally abused children for 15 years, I can only imagine the psychic impact upon Ennis from witnessing the body AND believing that, even if his father didn't commit that killing, that he was capable of doing so.  As a former gay child (the chlid part is former, the gay part remains curent!) who paid careful attention to the few adult gay role models available, I can only imagine young Ennis' horror at the killing regardless of who committed it.  Sometimes, as frustrated as I have felt that Ennis could not move past his inhibitions and fears during Jack's lifetime, I am amazed that Ennis could function in a relationship at all with Jack.  He must have loved that man something powerful to set his fears aside, even to the limited extent that he did.  That's why I believe that "I swear"  ends with ... and I would be braver and be with you more if I had another chance.

[serious crayons]

Sometimes, as frustrated as I have felt that Ennis could not move past his inhibitions and fears during Jack's lifetime, I am amazed that Ennis could function in a relationship at all with Jack.  He must have loved that man something powerful to set his fears aside, even to the limited extent that he did.

I know. That's why I don't like it when people "blame" Ennis for not acting differently -- by his standards, from his point of view, in the context of what he knew, he took some big risks for love.

[alec716]

I know. That's why I don't like it when people "blame" Ennis for not acting differently -- by his standards, from his point of view, in the context of what he knew, he took some big risks for love.

Yes, and I think that the risks were very large, in light of Ennis' lifelong emotional and financial disempowerment.  He was willing to take time away from his wife and daughters, bargain with employers (which he was not willing to do to please Alma, as the grocery store scene shows), quit jobs, and (I believe most significantly of all) confront the violent and fearsome ghost of his hateful father in order to be with Jack to a larger extent than others in his shoes might have been willing or able to do.  He NEEDED Jack, and he knew it, and he never tried to deny it.  He was simply, tragically unable to act on the need as much as he wanted to.

I wonder just how much of a flashback to his own father Ennis had when confronted with the Stud Duck's venom across the kitchen table after Jack's death.  Just as his own father metaphorically spit on young Ennis' dignity by ingraining a homophobic self-loathing, Mr. Twist literally spit at the mention of Ennis' relationship with Jack.  In a similar vein, given that we see Ennis' father place a hand on or around his young shoulder to ensure that Ennis saw the horror that was Earl's defiled body -- I cannot help hoping that Jack's mother's hand on his shoulder in the Twist house was a healing parental touch for Ennis.

and that's my rant for tonight...!   

[serious crayons]

And a very well expressed rant it was, Alec! 

Especially this part:

Yes, and I think that the risks were very large, in light of Ennis' lifelong emotional and financial disempowerment.  He was willing to take time away from his wife and daughters, bargain with employers (which he was not willing to do to please Alma, as the grocery store scene shows), quit jobs, and (I believe most significantly of all) confront the violent and fearsome ghost of his hateful father in order to be with Jack to a larger extent than others in his shoes might have been willing or able to do.  He NEEDED Jack, and he knew it, and he never tried to deny it.  He was simply, tragically unable to act on the need as much as he wanted to.

I always feel bad when people criticize Ennis for not simply ignoring that violent and fearsome ghost -- the one permanently lodged in his mind -- and getting on with a sweet life. Of course I wish he would have. But what amazes me is not that he didn't cure himself of his homophobia for the sake of Jack, but that he was able to love Jack as well as he did despite his homophobia.

[Brown Eyes]

I am amazed that Ennis could function in a relationship at all with Jack.  He must have loved that man something powerful to set his fears aside, even to the limited extent that he did.  That's why I believe that "I swear"  ends with ... and I would be braver and be with you more if I had another chance.

Alec, I really like the way you put this.  It's really touching!

[alec716]

Alec, I really like the way you put this.  It's really touching!

I just calls it as I sees it... thanks.

[Ellemeno]

Hi Everyone, I just saw this thread for the first time just now (never enough time).  As I started readng the first few posts, I started formulating what I wanted to add, and then lo!, I found Katherine had done it for me by quoting something I wrote a while back. 

(I'm also glad to have the opportunity to see that I was, understandably - my writing wasn't clear, I see now - somewhat misunderstood.  I actually don't think that Ennis would kill Jack.)

As is so often the case when I come into a thread 26 posts in, I don't have much to add to the wonderful discussion, except to say that I've always found it very powerful that Jack never drops his direct gaze from Ennis's during the "Hell yeah I been a Mexico/All them things" exchange.  And he doesn't flinch at all when jabbed in the chest (and heart).  I think it says a lot about the strong, self-accepting, unashamed man that Jack has grown into.  I always feel proud of him for that moment.
The rest of what I feel like conveying right now seems to distill into saying once again, "Poor Ennis." 

[serious crayons]

The other day Ellemeno expressed what I thought was a really good concept: Ennis' internal homophobic lynch mob. Althoughin context I disagreed with her viewpoint (it was on the "would Ennis really kill Jack" thread -- I don't believe he would) this seemed so useful in regard to the question of Ennis' dad's influence that I went back and found it:

The only thing I can add to what's been said is that it always seems to me that part of what Ennis is doing there is making clear that even now, he is aligning himself with the homophobes and not with the homosexual.  It's what he got taught - when you find out that someone has had sex with a man, you kill them.  He could somehow torque it inside of himself that he himself ain't queer, so that doesn't count.  But if Jack has sex with another man, well that is queer, and thus a killable offense.

It's almost like he says it out loud pro forma, for any homophobes who might be listening, just like when on the mountain he leans back to watch Jack ride away, and then quickly catches himself and LOOKS AROUND, to see if anyone else has noticed that he was watching another guy.  He carries his homophobic lynch mob with him everywhere he goes, even way out in the middle of nowhere.

This is a first for me -- quoting myself quoting someone else!

Wow, that was a long time ago. Elle, I think maybe it is me who was unclear. Either that or I am unclear now about what I thought on April 29. For that matter, some of my posts on this very thread seem to contradict each other.

Anyway, you had a good concept -- Ennis' inner lynch mob -- which I thought of again more recently and may have even quoted, when speculating about why Ennis called it "the job," as if at some level he categorizes it as a normal chore as opposed to an atrocity.

[Brown Eyes]

I've always found it very powerful that Jack never drops his direct gaze from Ennis's during the "Hell yeah I been a Mexico/All them things" exchange.  And he doesn't flinch at all when jabbed in the chest (and heart).  I think it says a lot about the strong, self-accepting, unashamed man that Jack has grown into.  I always feel proud of him for that moment.

Hi Clarissa,
Thanks for joining in!  Wow, I've never really thought about Ennis's shove as a "jab in the heart".  That's really powerful.
 

I don't know if I can handle the "inner lynch mob" conversation again.
 

And, back to the original thread topic... I'm still obsessed with figuring out what the actual landscape is for the Earl flashback. 
 

[Ellemeno]

And, back to the original thread topic... I'm still obsessed with figuring out what the actual landscape is for the Earl flashback. 
 

I'm going to vote that that's why New Mexico is listed as a shooting location.  Sounds good to me.  But I don't really know.

[Brown Eyes]

The landscape of the Earl flashback is interesting to me because it's clearly much more than a simple "irrigation dtich".  Such hostile looking territory.  So, I had a half-baked notion that it might be Death Valley (since I've recently seen some photos of Death Valley that reminded me of it).

[Ellemeno]

The landscape of the Earl flashback is interesting to me because it's clearly much more than a simple "irrigation dtich".  Such hostile looking territory.  So, I had a half-baked notion that it might be Death Valley (since I've recently seen some photos of Death Valley that reminded me of it).

Why yes, I believe that is the information you shared in your original post of this thread.

[Brown Eyes]

Heya Clarissa,

Are you trying to tell me that I'm repeating myself?  Well, after 540+ posts, I guess it's bound to happen.
 

[Rayn]

and that's my rant for tonight...!   

And a beautiful, truthful rant it was and is, alec716.   All I can say is I completely agree and thank you for the fine work of expressing it.

Rayn

[Front-Ranger]

Wow, what a great site! Thanks, Goadra!

[moremojo]

This link has a guide to each scene’s location http://www.findingbrokeback.com. The Earl flashback was filmed in Dorothy.

Fascinating site, and I'm intrigued to learn that a part of Alberta looks so much like Utah! (Sage, Ennis's hometown, is near Wyoming's border with Utah).