Author Topic: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"  (Read 6733 times)

Offline starboardlight

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"You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« on: April 25, 2006, 03:14:21 pm »
What was Cassie thinking asking that? It's like asking "do I look fat?" What possible response was she expecting from a girl she's just met for the first time?
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Offline RouxB

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2006, 03:26:47 pm »
I think she was fishing for information-like maybe Ennis had admitted his feelings to Jr. but not to Cassie herself (we KNOW Ennis would never verbally profess any type of emotion to anyone but his kids).

 O0

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2006, 04:17:29 pm »
I guess this is a little bit OT, but it's always struck me how disappointed Junior looks when the truck pulls up and she sees Cassie in it--disappointed and maybe even a little disgusted? Like it was a very unpleasant surprise, like she was expecting some quality time alone with her dad, and there's Cassie.

It's made me wonder, too, What was Ennis thinking, bringing Cassie along? Maybe Cassie pestered him to bring her along because she wanted to meet his daughter.

Yeah, I've figured Cassie was just trying to pump Junior for information.
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Offline henrypie

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2006, 04:37:00 pm »
Poor chatty Cassie, trying to get close to the silent family Del Mar.  Fool!

Offline Phillip Dampier

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2006, 04:39:35 pm »
What was Cassie thinking asking that? It's like asking "do I look fat?" What possible response was she expecting from a girl she's just met for the first time?

Velma was pumping Junior for inside info, based on the fact Junior would know her father more than most.  Heck, I thought Junior probably figured out who Jack Twist was by then anyway.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2006, 05:04:33 pm »
I understand Cassie's motivations in that scene just fine. It's Alma Jr.'s I'm not sure of. Does she know more about her dad than she lets on and is giving the brushoff to someone she has reason to resent? Or does her sort of blank expression indicate she's perplexed, too?

Come to think of it, there is something I don't get about Cassie here. What exactly was the "point" that Alma Jr. got across to her?

Offline MaineWriter

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2006, 05:06:52 pm »


Come to think of it, there is something I don't get about Cassie here. What exactly was the "point" that Alma Jr. got across to her?


I've wondered that exact thing. Anyone?
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Offline henrypie

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2006, 05:12:37 pm »
Well, my parents got divorced when I was thirteen.  My dad remarried pretty soon, and I was okay with that because I wasn't very connected to my dad.  When my mom started dating, I was a horrible creep to the guy, because I was jealous and threatened, because I felt very connected to my mom.  Alma Jr. is no horrible creep, but I'm sure she's jealous/protective/insecure/grouchy about anyone going after the parent with whom she has the closer connection.

Offline YaadPyar

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2006, 05:17:34 pm »

Come to think of it, there is something I don't get about Cassie here. What exactly was the "point" that Alma Jr. got across to her?


The point is that Alma Jr. doesn't think much of Cassie, and certainly has no personal affection for her, but if her dad is going to marry, she (Alma Jr.) won't get in the way.
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Offline hermitdave

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2006, 05:37:01 pm »
I hope its not off topic but... I just have to say I really liked Cassie. I found her to be refreshingly honest. She wanted Ennis-so she went after him. She wanted to know more-so she asked Alma Jr.  She wanted to know why she had been dumped- so she asked Ennis. She didnt have the emotional baggage the other characters had, (at least none that I could see). She fell in love with Ennis. Certainly she cant be faulted for that.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2006, 05:45:35 pm »
I hope its not off topic but... I just have to say I really liked Cassie. I found her to be refreshingly honest. She wanted Ennis-so she went after him. She wanted to know more-so she asked Alma Jr.  She wanted to know why she had been dumped- so she asked Ennis. She didnt have the emotional baggage the other characters had, (at least none that I could see). She fell in love with Ennis. Certainly she cant be faulted for that.

I agree totally. In fact, I'll have to confess that I like Cassie better than I like Alma.

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2006, 05:46:31 pm »
I hope its not off topic but... I just have to say I really liked Cassie. I found her to be refreshingly honest. She wanted Ennis-so she went after him. She wanted to know more-so she asked Alma Jr.  She wanted to know why she had been dumped- so she asked Ennis. She didnt have the emotional baggage the other characters had, (at least none that I could see). She fell in love with Ennis. Certainly she cant be faulted for that.
Hi, hopefulheart--

I find Cassie sympathetic too, though a lot of BBM fans have gone on record as finding her annoying. She certainly is bold and forward, but never maliciously so, and I think you are very perceptive to recognize that her motives and actions are a lot more open and honest than those of many of the other characters. With Cassie, what you see is what you get. I like how she gives Ennis some of the attention and affection of which he is likely bereft for so much of the year when he is separated from Jack.

Probably the only thing I could fault Cassie for is when she addresses Ennis as 'dummy', even though I realize she is being playful. Just don't like to hear our boys being called names (Aguirre, anyone?), unless they are doing it among themselves ;).

Scott
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 07:00:00 pm by moremojo »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2006, 06:59:23 pm »
I hope its not off topic but... I just have to say I really liked Cassie. I found her to be refreshingly honest. She wanted Ennis-so she went after him. She wanted to know more-so she asked Alma Jr.  She wanted to know why she had been dumped- so she asked Ennis. She didnt have the emotional baggage the other characters had, (at least none that I could see). She fell in love with Ennis. Certainly she cant be faulted for that.

Hat's off to you, Hopefulheart!

I have to admit I've never even given Cassie much thought, but after reading your post, I have to agree with you! Thank you for a refreshing new perspective!

I always figured Junior's "point" was just that she didn't like Cassie--for whatever reason--and she got it across with that "You're good enough" comment.
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Offline littledarlin

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2006, 07:04:42 pm »
Quote
What was Cassie thinking asking that? It's like asking "do I look fat?" What possible response was she expecting from a girl she's just met for the first time?

I think that's the point, she doesn't think before she speaks.  She's a very straight-forward, blunt, but predictable character.  I don't think the choice of Linda Ronstadt's "It's So Easy" was a coincidence.  I think Cassie is there for contrast to show how easy it was for people to start relationships back then, as long as they were straight.  I mean she goes straight for Ennis, Ennis goes forward with the motions, obviously no REAL sparks but the next thing she's talking about is marriage. 

People often confuse coincidence with fate, and this is a prime example.  Ennis always drank there, and Cassie worked there.  Their relationship was based on convenience.  Jack and Ennis on the other hand, became friends first, got to know eachother, and when they realized what they had, took it to the next level.  Did Cassie deserve to be lied to and led on?  Of course not, but she was just another of many victims to Ennis' fear.

Cassie is pretty much Ennis' Lureen.  They took charge, and the boys don't object because they think it's what's expected of them.  I feel most for Alma, because her and Ennis were together before he met Jack.  The realization that your husband is in love with another man is hard enough for her, but to also realize that your entire marriage was a lie?  And people wonder why she became so bitter!  And more power to her for letting go... The fact that Ennis would've continued the marriage even after he knew Alma knew is testament to his desperation to do what society expects of him.

But before I get any more off topic, Cassie just didn't know any better.  And like Ennis, Alma Jr doesn't object, she goes with the flow because she thinks that's what's best for everyone.
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Offline fernly

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2006, 09:15:29 pm »
How do you think meeting Cassie affected Jr.'s plan to ask Ennis if she could live with him instead of Alma and Monroe?  Was meeting Cassie why Jr. wasn't going to bring it up until Ennis pushed her about what was bothering her? 
Seemed to me that the small chance of him saying yes might have been enough to make it really hard for Jr. to say anything about moving in, until he kept asking her what was going on.

and about Cassie herself...  I've always thought she had some of Jack's qualities, and that was part of why Ennis responded to her as much as he did.   
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Offline starboardlight

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2006, 12:23:03 am »
In my original question, I guess I was getting at her being naive or thoughtlessness. She's got her concern and she goes for it with the question, I agree that's admirable to a point. But honestly, would any of you expect a teen age girl you just net a few minutes ago to open up to you?
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2006, 01:21:18 am »
No. But Cassie was pretty outgoing and bold. I think it was her idea of girlish chit-chat.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2006, 01:45:54 am »
beside, would "maybe he's not the marrying kind" been all the clue she needs as far as what Jr thinks about her chances with Ennis.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2006, 11:23:55 am »
Though she probably just saw that as a challenge. My impression is that back in them days, "not the marrying kind" wouldn't necessarily lead people like Cassie to think, "Oh, he's gay" -- more likely "He's a loner, but maybe I can change that."

But you're right that she probably shouldn't expect Alma Jr. to elaborate.

Offline Kelda

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2006, 11:40:41 am »
Velma was pumping Junior for inside info, based on the fact Junior would know her father more than most.  Heck, I thought Junior probably figured out who Jack Twist was by then anyway.

VELMAA!!! AH!! didn't get that connection! I knew she was familiar but thought it was ER (even though I don't watch that these days)

But back to the point!

I always kind of thought.... WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? STOP BEING SO SELFISH! - when Ennis would go to sit back down beside Jr after using the Juke box, and Cassie would whisk him away to dance.

It pi55ed me off..this was Jrs time not Cassie's!


But yeah there is something admiral but also something annoying about her...
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Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 04:48:29 pm »
bumping another oldie

Velma!!

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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2018, 11:14:52 pm »
Velma?? :-\
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2018, 12:43:25 am »
Hello Lee!

Linda Cardellini (Cassie in BBM) also played Velma in the Scooby Doo movie.  That's her  in the pic above.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2018, 10:57:03 am »
I never did get an answer to the question I asked on the first page. That is, what did the exchange mean -- Alma Jr. saying "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" and Cassie saying "You don't say much but you get your point across."

Yaadpyar's "the point is that Alma Jr. doesn't think much of Cassie and certainly has no personal affection for her, but if her dad is going to marry, she (Alma Jr.) won't get in the way" doesn't really answer what I was asking. Not that it's wrong; obviously on the surface it's something like that.

But I wondered whether it was deeper than that. When we hear "not the marryin kind" we in the audience know there's a second meaning as well as the obvious one. (He can't be the marryin kind until the Supreme Court's decision 50+ years later!)

So the question is, what did Alma know? Is this supposed to be a throwaway scene, as simple as Cassie digging for answers via girltalk and Alma semi-dodging them -- and only the audience being in on the other meaning, like ha ha that's for sure?

Or does it mean that Alma Jr. gets that meaning, too -- that she secretly knows more than she's letting on (a possibility revisited in the trailer scene at the end)? And although Cassie doesn't fully get that second meaning, the weird way she phrases the reply, "you get your point across" is interesting. On the surface, Alma Jr. didn't really have a "point" -- she's just speculating about Ennis' intentions and states them quite clearly. Cassie might as easily have said something like "We'll see about that," or "Well, I hope I can be the one who changes his mind" or "You don't think so, hunh?" But then the scene would have been simple and obvious.

If Cassie had said, "I get what you're saying -- he's gay" obviously that wouldn't have worked, either. She didn't really get that. But the way Cassie replies gives the line more significance and mystery. This movie doesn't have a lot of simple or obvious scenes.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2018, 11:29:50 am »
I never did get an answer to the question I asked on the first page. That is, what did the exchange mean -- Alma Jr. saying "Maybe he's not the marrying kind" and Cassie saying "You don't say much but you get your point across."

Yaadpyar's "the point is that Alma Jr. doesn't think much of Cassie and certainly has no personal affection for her, but if her dad is going to marry, she (Alma Jr.) won't get in the way" doesn't really answer what I was asking. Not that it's wrong; obviously on the surface it's something like that.

But I wondered whether it was deeper than that. When we hear "not the marryin kind" we in the audience know there's a second meaning as well as the obvious one. (He can't be the marryin kind until the Supreme Court's decision 50+ years later!)

So the question is, what did Alma know? Is this supposed to be a throwaway scene, as simple as Cassie digging for answers via girltalk and Alma semi-dodging them -- and only the audience being in on the other meaning, like ha ha that's for sure?

Or does it mean that Alma Jr. gets that meaning, too -- that she secretly knows more than she's letting on (a possibility revisited in the trailer scene at the end)? And although Cassie doesn't fully get that second meaning, the weird way she phrases the reply, "you get your point across" is interesting. On the surface, Alma Jr. didn't really have a "point" -- she's just speculating about Ennis' intentions and states them quite clearly. Cassie might as easily have said something like "We'll see about that," or "Well, I hope I can be the one who changes his mind" or "You don't think so, hunh?" But then the scene would have been simple and obvious.

If Cassie had said, "I get what you're saying -- he's gay" obviously that wouldn't have worked, either. She didn't really get that. But the way Cassie replies gives the line more significance and mystery. This movie doesn't have a lot of simple or obvious scenes.

I hope to come back to this later. For now I just want to throw in this reference.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/not-be-the-marrying-kind
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2018, 11:55:11 am »
Linda Cardellini (Cassie in BBM) also played Velma in the Scooby Doo movie.  That's her  in the pic above.

THanks for that, Chuck! I'm behind on my Scooby Doo movies.

I think Alma Jr. and Cassie were speaking in code, as it was and is necessary to do in Wyoming. "He's not the marrying kind" as you pointed out, is code for gay, and "You don't say much, but you get your point across" means "message received." Still, I think Cassie denies the reality due to Ennis's manliness and virility.
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Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2018, 01:17:15 pm »
I agree that Junior's "not the marrying kind" can be either:  (1) just that; or (2) code for gay.

Then Cassie says "you don't think so, or you don't think I'm the one?"

Then Junior says, "you're good enough".

Cassie's "you don't say much but you get your point across" I believe, is a direct response to Junior's somewhat snarky "you're good enough" comment, and not responding directly to the "marrying kind" comment.  Cuz Junior says "sorry, didn't mean to be rude".

I think Junior knows about her father, and poor Cassie is clueless, but thinking more of herself here.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2018, 02:28:18 pm »
Not sayin' I'm right, here, but has anyone given any thought to how Alma Jr.'s experience of observing and living through her parents' break-up might play into her response to Cassie? I don't know; it's just a thought that crossed my mind while I was eating my lunch.  ;D
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Offline morrobay

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2018, 04:44:42 pm »
Hope it's ok if I put this here.  I thought Cassie was clueless about Ennis, and saw him as a potential husband with only an ex-wife and kids as baggage.  I posted it on LiveJournal in 2013:

Even though he did that she still wanted him to call. She had been between men for almost two months when Ennis had come along, and she didn’t waste any time letting him know that she was interested.

Didn’t tell him everything though. There were steps you had to take, she knew that...knew what the steps were, and how to follow them, in what order, when to slow down, and when to outright stop.

She was at step number three, meet the kids. So far, she’d only met the oldest...at least she got to drink wine while she listened to her complain, and throw sad looks at her daddy. Well, she was almost grown and on her own.

Yeah, even though he did that, she still wanted him to call...he was easy with her, mostly...she was even kinda starting to like it...which reminded her...she tossed the KY in her cart and kept on going.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2018, 10:18:08 pm »
I agree that Junior's "not the marrying kind" can be either:  (1) just that; or (2) code for gay.

Then Cassie says "you don't think so, or you don't think I'm the one?"

Then Junior says, "you're good enough".

Cassie's "you don't say much but you get your point across" I believe, is a direct response to Junior's somewhat snarky "you're good enough" comment, and not responding directly to the "marrying kind" comment.  Cuz Junior says "sorry, didn't mean to be rude".

I think Junior knows about her father, and poor Cassie is clueless, but thinking more of herself here.

Ohhh. I should probably consult my BBM S2S after 12 f'in years. You're right -- given those in-between lines I forgot about, your explanation makes perfect sense.

I still think in reality (reality!  :laugh:) Cassie might have responded differently: "We'll see, I guess" or "I hope so" or "Cause I'd sure like to get to know you better"  or "What do you mean by that?" or whatever. Something a little warmer or more curious. The fact that she doesn't, that she instead says the slightly ambiguous "you get your point across" when Alma Jr. actually DOES have an alternate point, makes the scene more nuanced. I agree that Cassie didn't get the "he's gay" subtext, but the line is interesting enough to get us discussing it 12 f'in years later.



Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2018, 10:55:04 am »
I swear I've practically memorized this film!

I particularly love the layers of ambiguity. Poor Cassie.  "You get your point across", but she doesn't get the real point.

This kinda reminds me of a scene in A Single Man.  Colin Firth is in the bank when a neighbor's daughter approaches him.  She says, "Mom says you're light in the loafers, but you're not even wearing loafers!" 
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2018, 11:01:05 am »
Yes, I think Cassie was focusing on her own feelings of being used. Beyond that she has no incite into what was causing that.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2018, 01:01:17 pm »
I swear I've practically memorized this film!

I particularly love the layers of ambiguity. Poor Cassie.  "You get your point across", but she doesn't get the real point.

It's been w-a-a-a-y too long for me. I'm not here to argue a point, but can anybody refresh my memory on why Junior's comments indicate that she knows her father is gay?

Quote
She says, "Mom says you're light in the loafers, but you're not even wearing loafers!" 

 :laugh:
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Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2018, 03:11:32 pm »
It's been w-a-a-a-y too long for me. I'm not here to argue a point, but can anybody refresh my memory on why Junior's comments indicate that she knows her father is gay?


We don't know exactly what she knows, but her choice of idiom suggests she may.

Didn't you post this?   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/not-be-the-marrying-kind
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2018, 04:29:36 pm »
We don't know exactly what she knows, but her choice of idiom suggests she may.

Didn't you post this?   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/not-be-the-marrying-kind

Yes, I did, but I read that as indicating a man may be gay, but apparently it doesn't necessarily mean he's gay.

If my research skills were better, it might be interesting to know something of the history of the usage.

It's been so long I have no recollection of when (year) that scene took place, and how old Junior was at the time. Perhaps one or both may have influenced her choice of words. ("What did she know, and when did she know it?") Or is she just generally pissed off and rude to Cassie because she was expecting quality time alone with her daddy, and he brings her along. I don't think I ever understood that as being "time you met my daughter." I think I felt it was just Ennis being socially tone-deaf.

And then again, maybe she does know he's gay and that's what she means. I just don't remember ever being convinced of that, or possibly even assuming that's what she meant. It may never even have occurred to me.

As I remember it, it seem to me that Ennis seems so antisocial that it strikes me as something of a wonder that he even hooks up with Cassie, or the unnamed would-be nursing student he puts the blocks to later.

It's all so long ago, yet I can't even imagine going back to watch the film even to review this scene..
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Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2018, 05:20:03 pm »
Yes, I did, but I read that as indicating a man may be gay, but apparently it doesn't necessarily mean he's gay.

True.  In fact, it can also mean "confirmed bachelor".  Dean Martin had a song called "Not the Marrying Kind", where he basically says no woman will tie him down.

Quote
If my research skills were better, it might be interesting to know something of the history of the usage.

I haven't had much luck finding the history.

Quote
It's been so long I have no recollection of when (year) that scene took place, and how old Junior was at the time. Perhaps one or both may have influenced her choice of words. ("What did she know, and when did she know it?") Or is she just generally pissed off and rude to Cassie because she was expecting quality time alone with her daddy, and he brings her along. I don't think I ever understood that as being "time you met my daughter." I think I felt it was just Ennis being socially tone-deaf.

I'd say late '70s, and Junior's about 15. I don't know how common the phrase was then.  I suspect Larry and Diana thought it was appropriately ambiguous!
Junior sure makes a sour face when Cassie shows up.

Quote
And then again, maybe she does know he's gay and that's what she means. I just don't remember ever being convinced of that, or possibly even assuming that's what she meant. It may never even have occurred to me.

Not sure I'm convinced either. Remains ambiguous. I wonder if she picked up on something when "Uncle Jack" came to visit, post-divorce.

Quote
As I remember it, it seem to me that Ennis seems so antisocial that it strikes me as something of a wonder that he even hooks up with Cassie, or the unnamed would-be nursing student he puts the blocks to later.

It's all so long ago, yet I can't even imagine going back to watch the film even to review this scene..

I might say "asocial". He passively succumbs to Cassie's charms.
I always thought Cassie was the one he was putting the blocks to, because of the proximity to the apple pie scene.
By the way, she makes a nice nurse:

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2018, 05:53:09 pm »
True.  In fact, it can also mean "confirmed bachelor".

Of course, "confirmed bachelor" can also be code for gay.  ;D
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Offline southendmd

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2018, 05:54:17 pm »
Of course, "confirmed bachelor" can also be code for gay.  ;D

 :laugh:
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2018, 10:27:15 am »
Perhaps one or both may have influenced her choice of words. ("What did she know, and when did she know it?") Or is she just generally pissed off and rude to Cassie because she was expecting quality time alone with her daddy, and he brings her along.

... And then again, maybe she does know he's gay and that's what she means.

I hate to be the reminder, but Junior didn't choose those words. Diana and Larry did. So while if this were real life we could speculate as to whether or not Junior knew Ennis was gay, since this is a movie the dialogue isn't there to express the genuine feelings of the person on the screen -- it's there to have an effect on the audience.

Which is why I think we're debating this point after 12 f'in years. I believe the screenwriters meant it to be ambiguous, just like they meant a lot of scenes and dialogue and motivations to be ambiguous. Maybe because back in them days homosexuality was such an unspoken taboo that people were always a little unsure what others were really thinking. And if you were gay, you'd have to constantly remain on guard and read between the lines.

There are other examples of this in the film. It seems fairly clear that Old Man Twist knew, and that the audience is supposed to know he knew. But was he pissed off because he was a homophobe or because Jack's offer to help with the farm never came to pass? Was Aguirre, who clearly did know, pissed off because he was a homophobe or because he the boys left the dogs to mind the sheep while they stemmed the rose? Did the guys playing pool know, or did they just look threatening under the circumstances? Did Ennis need to worry about the passing truck when Jack visits? And then there's the most important ambiguity of all: how Jack died.

So to analyze the Jr./Cassie scene we should keep in mind that good screenplays are economical. This movie isn't about Ennis' whole life, including his relationship with his daughters and everything else. And it's certainly not about Junior. So there's no need to have a prolonged scene establishing that his daughter is resentful that Cassie has intruded on her time with her dad, because that would be off topic. The scene is there because it's in some way connected to what the movie actually is about, which is Ennis' relationship with Jack.

So given that, I think Junior (i.e., Diana and Larry) "chose" her idiom for a very specific reason, which is to deepen the complexity and ambiguity of the circumstances Ennis always lived in.


I suspect Larry and Diana thought it was appropriately ambiguous!

I agree.

Quote
I always thought Cassie was the one he was putting the blocks to, because of the proximity to the apple pie scene.

I agree with this, too.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2018, 11:20:16 am »
I hate to be the reminder, but Junior didn't choose those words. Diana and Larry did. So while if this were real life we could speculate as to whether or not Junior knew Ennis was gay, since this is a movie the dialogue isn't there to express the genuine feelings of the person on the screen -- it's there to have an effect on the audience.

Sure enough. But then why did we debate so much about practically anything and everything for so long all those years ago if we weren't, well, pretending, that these were real people with real emotions and real reasons for doing and saying things? We could all have just said, "It's a movie" and had done with it

Cassie was the one he was putting the blocks to, because of the proximity to the apple pie scene.

Quote
I agree with this, too.

I don't suppose I did, because I was never sure how much time was supposed to have elapsed between the two scenes, and I don't remember any dialog about Cassie wanting to go to nursing school.

I'm afraid I've always been a little ambivalent about Cassie because the first time we see her is that business of "tryin' a get a foot rub" from some guy she's (presumably) just met (or I've always assumed they've just met; maybe that was Ennis' usual waterin' hole and they'd seen each other before). On the other hand, I really feel for her when she and her (new) boyfriend encounter Ennis in the apple pie scene. I think she's downright heart-breaking there, and I think Linda plays that scene very well.

(Kind of OT, but often I seem to have trouble figuring out/understanding how much time is supposed to have elapsed between scenes in movies and especially scenes in "serial"-type TV shows, especially when the amount of time is not constant. Of course an exception would be when in one scene the characters are young and in the next they've been aged significantly, or the other way 'round when an older character is supposed to be thinking back to something that happened when he or she was young.)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:54:18 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2018, 08:39:28 pm »
Of course, "confirmed bachelor" can also be code for gay.  ;D


I've heard that one be used.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2018, 11:02:04 am »
Sure enough. But then why did we debate so much about practically anything and everything for so long all those years ago if we weren't, well, pretending, that these were real people with real emotions and real reasons for doing and saying things? We could all have just said, "It's a movie" and had done with it ;D

Even in them days, and even when talking about the characters like they was real people, I asked myself what Annie, Diana, Larry, Ang, etc. might have been trying to do as much as what might have motivated the characters as people. Yes, "it's a movie," but an extraordinarily complex and subtle one, in which characters' thoughts aren't always obvious but are important, so there's plenty to debate. But you can also leverage the idea that if the movie takes the time to show somebody doing something, it's for a reason that serves the objectives of the story/film.

So even in them days it wouldn't have made sense to me to say, oh, they threw in this five minutes of screen time just to give us a glimpse into Junior's mind and understand that she's resentful about having to share time with her dad. The movie is too economical for that. (Heck, even the pavement-spreading scene has at least two or three meaningful things in it!) Obviously, a real life Junior might not know her dad was gay (in fact, that seems far more likely, given the time and place and her lack of direct evidence -- at the very least she probably wouldn't be so tactful and sensitive about it). But a real-life Junior doesn't have a camera following her around recording significant conversations.

So I don't mean "it's a movie" in the sense of, "it's just another installment of Spiderman, you're reading too much into it, a cigar is a cigar." I mean it in the sense of, how can we understand the characters in terms of what we know about them, how they behave -- but also the film's theme? What is the work of art trying to say by including that bit of dialogue?

Quote
I don't suppose I did, because I was never sure how much time was supposed to have elapsed between the two scenes, and I don't remember any dialog about Cassie wanting to go to nursing school.

OK, I'll admit, I'm confused. I can't lay hands on my copy of Story to Screenplay and I tried to google it but wasn't entirely successful. Does he even mention a nurse in the movie, or is that just in the story?

There is, however, a mention of an unnamed waitress in the story: “Ennis said he's been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she has some problems he didn't want.”

Quote
(Kind of OT, but often I seem to have trouble figuring out/understanding how much time is supposed to have elapsed between scenes in movies and especially scenes in "serial"-type TV shows, especially when the amount of time is not constant. Of course an exception would be when in one scene the characters are young and in the next they've been aged significantly, or the other way 'round when an older character is supposed to be thinking back to something that happened when he or she was young.)

I've been watching Frankie and Grace, that TV series with Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda. It's not very good, but it's mildly entertaining. (Jane Fonda, BTW, looks fantastic at 80. Lily's not bad herself.) Anyway, last night one episode skipped forward in time from the previous one. It's not entirely clear how much time has elapsed, but seemingly months rather than years. The characters' situations have changed somewhat. But it would have been much more confusing except that in the second episode Sam Waterston had grown a goatee.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2018, 12:55:10 pm »
OK, I'll admit, I'm confused. I can't lay hands on my copy of Story to Screenplay and I tried to google it but wasn't entirely successful. Does he even mention a nurse in the movie, or is that just in the story?

My copy was handy. In the script as printed in the book, p. 79, Ennis is given the line, "Been puttin' the blocks to a good-lookin' little gal over in Riverton. Waitresses part-time, wants to go to nursing school."

I forgot about the "waitresses" part. That's why I always assumed it wasn't a reference to Cassie, because when we meet her, she's a bartender instead of a waitress (probably makes more money that way  ;D  ). I suppose it could still be a reference to Cassie, but I've never thought the script necessarily bore out that interpretation.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2018, 12:58:38 pm »
What? Cassie was a bartender? I never got that impression.  ???
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2018, 01:12:55 pm »
Incidentally, I always specify "the script as printed in the book" because my favorite line in the entire movie, "Jack fuckin' Twist," does not appear in the script as printed the book.

What? Cassie was a bartender? I never got that impression.  ???

Well, IIRC, the first time we see her she's standing behind the bar, and around here, anyway, a waitress would not be behind the bar, even to get someone a bottle of beer. Bartenders are fussy that way. We do have women bartenders (just not in a bar where the patrons are mostly gay males). so I've always assumed she was tending bar. That would bear out her comment about being on her feet as much as being a waitress would. Years ago I tended bar for club functions, and being on your feet behind a bar does get tiresome.

Of course, on double checking StoS, on page 72, Cassie is described as a waitress, but what I remember seeing of Linda never gave me that impression. On page 73, there is a reference to another waitress, but I don't remember if we see another waitress in the film or not.

The wine that Cassie drinks is probably her "shift drink," if they have that concept out West. Around here, bartenders and waiters and waitresses get a free drink at the end of their shift.

(Incidentally, I don't mean to argue here, just explain my impression and why I had and have it.)

Of course, it's been so long, my memory may have turned into a mirror and I've got it backward now. My memory is that Cassie is behind the bar (bartender) and walks around it, but maybe she's in front of the bar (waitress). I'll be the first to admit that my memory may be faulty.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2018, 01:50:35 pm »
My impression is that Cassie is a waitress, that she's the waitress Ennis refers to, and that for all we know she wants to go to nursing school but, because again the movie is not about Cassie's career dreams, we don't need a scene in which she discusses that. You could even argue that it's an unnecessary bit of dialogue. They probably figured it adds a realistic dimension while not saddling poor Cassie with unnamed "problems," a remark that would draw more attention to itself in the movie because we know Cassie as a person.

There's no indication that Ennis has more than one girlfriend. And, going back to treating Ennis as a real person, he doesn't seem like he'd be really into the dating scene. Cassie threw herself at him and he passively went along with it for obvious reasons and that was that. He had no reason to break up with her until the events that preceded the apple-pie scene, presumably related to the IWIKHTQY scene on the beach.

I have worked in a lot of bars and restaurants (not recently). In a really casual place like this one, it wouldn't be unheard of for a waitress to step behind the bar. Especially in a small town. Far less likely at your UWH in Philadelphia, for sure. And yes, bartenders usually do make more money, but then theirs is a more skilled job (at least it would be in a craft cocktail place as opposed to a beer and shot dive like the one in the movie).

My parents liked martinis. One time on a vacation we stopped in a place sort of like this for dinner. They ordered martinis and the waitress said, "We don't serve none of them fancy drinks here." Like typical elitist liberals, we all laughed about that one for years.  :laugh:



Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2018, 02:25:25 pm »
I always assumed that  Ennis was talking about Cassie when he  is talking to Jack about the waitress  who wants to be a nurse, only because Ennis was an introvert (to put it mildly).   I can't see him going out and having girlfriends.  I felt he only got married to Alma because he was expected to, was involved with Jack because Jack initiated it,  and was involved with  Cassie because she approached him and initiated  it.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2018, 03:23:55 pm »
They probably figured it adds a realistic dimension while not saddling poor Cassie with unnamed "problems," a remark that would draw more attention to itself in the movie because we know Cassie as a person.

This is another one of the places where Larry and Diana expanded on Annie:

"Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal ... but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want."

As usual, they did a good job of it.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2018, 12:17:20 pm »
This is another one of the places where Larry and Diana expanded on Annie:

"Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal ... but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want."

As usual, they did a good job of it.

Yup. I had just read that line, and that's what I meant.

They wanted to expand on the waitress character, which makes perfect sense because they had to expand things to fill the screen time, and it adds another dimension on Ennis' character. But they didn't want to get into her "problems," probably for a lot of reasons. They wanted to make her seem like a perfectly fine choice -- for someone other than Ennis. They didn't want to saddle an otherwise appealing character with problems aside from the main one -- which was Ennis. They didn't want to shift focus to Cassie's life because it would be OT in a movie about Ennis.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2018, 11:06:22 pm »
I think Alma Jr. and Cassie were speaking in code, as it was and is necessary to do in Wyoming. "He's not the marrying kind" as you pointed out, is code for gay, and "You don't say much, but you get your point across" means "message received." Still, I think Cassie denies the reality due to Ennis's manliness and virility.

I was reminded of this just this evening, and nearly had a laugh out loud.

In the episode of Victoria that ran on Masterpiece this evening, at one point the Queen said of Edward Drummond, the secretary to the prime minister, that she didn't think Drummond was "the marrying kind."

The Drummond character was one-half of the gay subplot in the series.

 :laugh:
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2018, 10:11:17 am »
Quote
I think Alma Jr. and Cassie were speaking in code, as it was and is necessary to do in Wyoming. "He's not the marrying kind" as you pointed out, is code for gay, and "You don't say much, but you get your point across" means "message received." Still, I think Cassie denies the reality due to Ennis's manliness and virility.

That's exactly what I was wondering when I asked about this at the beginning of this thread years on years ago. Is that what they were "really" saying? Or is it what we, the audience, are meant to wonder about? Either in an ironic way, because we know it has a double meaning in this case, or in a confused way because we don't know if they actually meant that, or if they were just saying, "He doesn't want to settle down." "OK, I get it."

I think Diana and Larry intended both meanings, deliberately ambiguously. By choosing phrases that fit both a superficial interpretation and the double-meaning interpretation, they were letting us share the feeling that Jack and especially Ennis lived with all the time: What do the people on the pavement suspect? Are the pool hall guys about to jump me? They can never be sure. The movie uses this technique on and off throughout. (Recall that the bartender also uses an ambiguous phrase!)

On another topic, Lee, I'm saddened and surprised to see you put it in present tense (was and is). Granted, I live in a bubble, but from what I've seen I feel like people these days are far less homophobic now than they were even when this thread began. Now that marriage equality is the law of the land, now that lots more movie and TV characters are gay without it being a big deal, they've kind of acquiesced to it. Plus, bigots can turn to another target -- now they can be transphobic!

But I don't live in or near Wyoming, so maybe it hasn't changed as much there.





Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2018, 10:17:16 am »
I think Alma Jr. and Cassie were speaking in code, as it was and is necessary to do in Wyoming. "He's not the marrying kind" as you pointed out, is code for gay, and "You don't say much, but you get your point across" means "message received." Still, I think Cassie denies the reality due to Ennis's manliness and virility.

I never thought of if that way.  Alma Jr. may have meant her quote as code for gay, but I don't think Cassie took it that way, more as a comment to herself. 

Although Cassie wouldn't know this,  I was reminded of an earlier comment from the movie, with Alma stating that Ennis should get married again, she "and the girls" were worried about him being alone all the time.

It's possible Cassie took "You're good enough" as, "well, at the very least, you're a warm body for my father."


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Sason

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2018, 04:41:44 pm »
It's possible Cassie took "You're good enough" as, "well, at the very least, you're a warm body for my father."

I'm not so sure about that. We don't know anything about Ennis' and Cassie's sex life. I feel pretty sure it wasn't very intense, for obvious reasons.
Maybe Cassie was hoping it would be better if Ennis finally saw fit to settle down, part of the reason she was asking Junior that question.

And maybe, just maybe, that't what Ennis meant when he said "I wasn't much fun anyway, was I", in the apple pie scene.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2018, 10:24:19 am »
It's possible Cassie took "You're good enough" as, "well, at the very least, you're a warm body for my father."

I think that's what we're meant to think she meant.

But "you get your point across" is an unusual way to answer that question. Most people would say something like, "I sure hope so" or "I wonder what he's looking for" or "Maybe he has commitment issues" (OK, so maybe that last one would only be people familiar with late-20th century pop psychology.)

"You get your point across" is a slightly weird way to answer. Not so weird that it doesn't make sense at all or seems really out of place. Just a bit weird, because Junior didn't seem to be hinting at any larger point than what she said more or less outright: Maybe he doesn't want to be married, because if he did Cassie would make an acceptable wife.

That's why I think these lines are meant to resonate with viewers. We know the superficial meaning, above. But we also know the ironic subtext, which Cassie probably doesn't know and Junior may, or may not. They were chosen specifically because they allowed both interpretations.



Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2018, 12:32:07 pm »
I think Diana and Larry intended both meanings, deliberately ambiguously. By choosing phrases that fit both a superficial interpretation and the double-meaning interpretation, they were letting us share the feeling that Jack and especially Ennis lived with all the time: What do the people on the pavement suspect? Are the pool hall guys about to jump me? They can never be sure. The movie uses this technique on and off throughout. (Recall that the bartender also uses an ambiguous phrase!)
I'm reading a book of movie critiques by Larry now and reminded of what a brilliant observer of female characters he is. Diana has said that he was the one who fleshed out the female characters, barely mentioned in Proulx's story. He understands the subtle nuances of the female language.

On another topic, Lee, I'm saddened and surprised to see you put it in present tense (was and is). Granted, I live in a bubble, but from what I've seen I feel like people these days are far less homophobic now than they were even when this thread began. Now that marriage equality is the law of the land, now that lots more movie and TV characters are gay without it being a big deal, they've kind of acquiesced to it. Plus, bigots can turn to another target -- now they can be transphobic!

But I don't live in or near Wyoming, so maybe it hasn't changed as much there.
Sadly, it hasn't. Rural homophobia has gotten worse, if anything, what with our president leading by example.  >:(
May 2019 be better for us all.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2018, 07:37:14 pm »
I think that's what we're meant to think she meant.

But "you get your point across" is an unusual way to answer that question. Most people would say something like, "I sure hope so" or "I wonder what he's looking for" or "Maybe he has commitment issues" (OK, so maybe that last one would only be people familiar with late-20th century pop psychology.)

"You get your point across" is a slightly weird way to answer. Not so weird that it doesn't make sense at all or seems really out of place. Just a bit weird, because Junior didn't seem to be hinting at any larger point than what she said more or less outright: Maybe he doesn't want to be married, because if he did Cassie would make an acceptable wife.

That's why I think these lines are meant to resonate with viewers. We know the superficial meaning, above. But we also know the ironic subtext, which Cassie probably doesn't know and Junior may, or may not. They were chosen specifically because they allowed both interpretations.


This is how I always took that conversation.


Jr.:  "You're good enough."  (At least you're company)

Cassie:  "You don't say much, but you get your point across."  (You don't like me and I'm not  who you would pick for your dad.)''

Jr.:  "Sorry, didn't mean to be rude."  (but yeah, you're right)


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2018, 10:00:02 am »

This is how I always took that conversation.


Jr.:  "You're good enough."  (At least you're company)

Cassie:  "You don't say much, but you get your point across."  (You don't like me and I'm not  who you would pick for your dad.)''

Jr.:  "Sorry, didn't mean to be rude."  (but yeah, you're right)

That works!  :)



Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2018, 10:58:12 pm »
I thought so too!  LOL


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2018, 11:34:57 am »
Sadly, it hasn't. Rural homophobia has gotten worse, if anything, what with our president leading by example.  >:(

This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of this thread, but I'll tell you what. This morning I saw a mention of RuPaul somewhere else, and I remembered that RuPaul married (legally) a Wyoming rancher. I remembered FRiend Lee's comment here, and it made me wonder: What do the neighbors of RuPaul's husband think of that? Did they know before that their neighbor was partnered up with RuPaul? What do they think of RuPaul? Do they get a "pass" (from rural homophobia) because RuPaul is a celebrity?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2018, 12:52:24 pm »
Rural homophobia has gotten worse, if anything, what with our president leading by example.  >:(

Far be it from me to say anything good about Donald Trump, but has he been homophobic? I've heard of him insulting just about every other marginalized group, and in doing so I'm sure he encourages and gives permission to bigots of every variety, including homophobes. I just can't recall hearing Trump himself say anything negative about gay people per se.


Offline milomorris

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2018, 01:33:26 pm »
Far be it from me to say anything good about Donald Trump, but has he been homophobic? I've heard of him insulting just about every other marginalized group, and in doing so I'm sure he encourages and gives permission to bigots of every variety, including homophobes. I just can't recall hearing Trump himself say anything negative about gay people per se.

Whether President Trump has insulted or encouraged any groups of people is a matter of perception. I am not aware of any comments he has made that brought accusations of homophobia. I do know that there have been some policy moves that the gay mainstream doesn't like, and claim are driven by homophobia. I also know that many mainstream gays have complained about things that Pence has done in the past, as well as statements made by Trump appointees in Washington.

So the identitarians seem to have some nail to hammer in his coffin for every group out there, including sexual minorities.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2018, 02:38:09 pm »
Far be it from me to say anything good about Donald Trump, but has he been homophobic? I've heard of him insulting just about every other marginalized group, and in doing so I'm sure he encourages and gives permission to bigots of every variety, including homophobes. I just can't recall hearing Trump himself say anything negative about gay people per se.

Taking the question strictly as to whether or not he has said anything, I can't remember. I do know he's tried to turn back the clock and kick sexual minorities out of the military. I think he issued an order (probably to appeal/satisfy his Christian right base), but I think a court blocked it.

Regardless whether or not he's said anything, that's close enough for me.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #62 on: March 03, 2018, 07:03:55 pm »
Taking the question strictly as to whether or not he has said anything, I can't remember. I do know he's tried to turn back the clock and kick sexual minorities out of the military. I think he issued an order (probably to appeal/satisfy his Christian right base), but I think a court blocked it.

That was specifically transgenders. And nobody would have been kicked out, they were trying to find a way to keep more from joining. The idea has since died because there were more military leaders opposed to it than in favor of it.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #63 on: March 03, 2018, 10:27:05 pm »
This doesn't really have anything to do with the topic of this thread, but I'll tell you what. This morning I saw a mention of RuPaul somewhere else, and I remembered that RuPaul married (legally) a Wyoming rancher. I remembered FRiend Lee's comment here, and it made me wonder: What do the neighbors of RuPaul's husband think of that? Did they know before that their neighbor was partnered up with RuPaul? What do they think of RuPaul? Do they get a "pass" (from rural homophobia) because RuPaul is a celebrity?


I'd be curious to know the answers.  :)


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2018, 10:31:29 pm »
Not to draw the thread off topic any further, I can't recall any quotes from Trump regarding gay people.

He has thrown Michael Pence under the bus on this, if you believe "anonymous sources"

The story, citing two anonymous sources, said Trump enjoys needling the conservative former Indiana governor about his views on abortion and homosexuality and, when a conversation with an unnamed legal scholar turned to gay rights, the president motioned to Pence and allegedly joked, "Don't ask that guy — he wants to hang them all!"


Pence has never said he wants to hang all gays, but his voting record towards  LGBT people is pretty well known as anti-gay.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: "You don't think so, or you don't think that I'm the one?"
« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2018, 11:12:48 am »
That was specifically transgenders. And nobody would have been kicked out, they were trying to find a way to keep more from joining. The idea has since died because there were more military leaders opposed to it than in favor of it.

Well, look who the wind blew in! Nice to see you, Milo.  :)

Yes, the issue involved transgender people, not gay people. Trump apparently initially did threaten in a tweet or something to ban transgender people from serving altogether. He signed an order to prevent recruiting them, the ACLU and other groups sued, the courts sided with them and DOJ did not challenge it because military leaders themselves said transgender service members weren't a problem.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/advocates-celebrate-huge-win-against-trump-s-transgender-military-ban-n833981

Apparently the issue is still on the table, but nobody seems to think it's going to go anywhere.

https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2018/02/06/new-jersey-joins-fight-opposing-trumps-transgender-military-ban-239699

An "openly transgender" recruit signed up about a week ago.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/27/17057580/transgender-soldier-military-trump-ban

I think of homophobia and transphobia being pretty different -- that is, in the way they play out in people's minds. People who would otherwise be, or once were, more homophobic have calmed down about that and turned their bigotry to a new target. Since the Supreme Court's marriage decision, I perceive an inclination of people -- not everybody, of course -- to go, oh well, I guess they're not that bad. It's those trans people who are the mentally ill weirdos destroying our society, especially when it comes to who uses what bathroom.

Getting back to Trump, I personally have never heard a homophobic (as opposed to transphobic) statement from him. I guess I assumed that anybody who has spent most of their lives running in sophisticated New York circles has met enough gay people that this isn't a big issue for them.

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think he'll get elected chairman of his local GLAD chapter anytime soon. The very fact that he chose Pence, who IS homophobic, as his VP shows that Trump's not exactly an ally. I just don't think he cares that much one way or another. Transgender people may not be his biggest concern, either -- but he knows that attacking them will be popular with his base.


Not to draw the thread off topic any further, I can't recall any quotes from Trump regarding gay people.

He has thrown Michael Pence under the bus on this, if you believe "anonymous sources"

The story, citing two anonymous sources, said Trump enjoys needling the conservative former Indiana governor about his views on abortion and homosexuality and, when a conversation with an unnamed legal scholar turned to gay rights, the president motioned to Pence and allegedly joked, "Don't ask that guy — he wants to hang them all!"

I don't know if I'd call this throwing Pence under the bus. That sounds more like a good-natured tease -- horrifying though the statement is -- as opposed to the way he treats, for example, Jeff Sessions.