BM movie is anti-gay??

[Artiste]

In some or many ways, the BM movie is anti-gay!! ??

What are you views or proof??

Hugs!!

[HerrKaiser]

I think, Artiste, that the film is not anti-gay at all...perhaps 'honest gay' is a better word.

Much discussion has occured about the not-so-perfect characteristics of both Ennis and Jack, but these are not to be seen, I think, as anti gay. Rather, human frailties or imperfections that are endured by everyone.

If some viewers look, for example, at Ennis and Jack's adulterous affair as a means to cast negativity on being gay, it would be an unfortunate interpretation, and it would miss the point. While gay lifestyles, and Ennis and Jack's to some degree, are by nature usually different than the typical heterosexual family, director Lee and the writers clearly did not intend to create fodder for any anti gay sentiments. And I do not think it has happened unexpectedly either.

[ifyoucantfixit]

     Just my opinion, it is not an anti gay story at alll.  Rather a anti prejudice story.  The entire problem, having been caused by the sociatal prejudices toward gays..If they would have been free to live together, love together, and thus prevent all the pain ,that was then visited on the rest of the people involved. 
     Neither one of them would have been afraid to be together, or to show openly how they felt toward each other.  The only place where they were able to do so was on the mountain...where they were the only society.                              

[Bucky]

     Just my opinion, it is not an anti gay story at alll.  Rather a anti prejudice story.  The entire problem, having been caused by the sociatal prejudices toward gays.. They would have been free to live together, love together, and thus prevent all the pain, that they then visited on the rest of the people involved. 
     Neither one of them would have been afraid to be together, or to show openly how they felt toward each other.  The only place where they were able to do so was on the mountain...where they were the only society.                              

   

Great post.  I also think BBM is an anti prejudice story.  If Jack and Ennis had been allowed to follow their true feelings and to just be together and love each other I don't think anyone else would have gotten hurt because Alma and Lureen would have been out of the picture.  Ennis would not have married Alma and Jack would never have met Lureen. Of course it didn't work out that way and they had to try to play by society's rules and to make liars out of themselves because society would not have allowed them to do otherwise.

[Artiste]

hanks all !!!

I do think that the film is anti-gay, in some ways.

Even in many ways!!

Hugs!!

[TOoP/Bruce]

hanks all !!!

I do think that the film is anti-gay, in some ways.

Even in many ways!!

Hugs!!

I am not sure I understand to what you refer.  Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say BbM is anti-gay "in many ways"? 

[brokeplex]

In some or many ways, the BM movie is anti-gay!! ??

What are you views or proof??

Hugs!!

Artiste, I think that BBM is brutally honest about the reality for many Gay men, not only in 1963 but even today. Thanks for your comment, it has made me consider whether or not it is anti-Gay. I don't believe that BBM is anti-Gay, but it delivers a good right punch at Homophobia and the closet.

[Artiste]

Thanks to all!

There are some gay men who refuse to see the movie again!

It is so hard, that you do feel that there is an anti-gay aspect of it,
in some or too many ways??

Awaiting your news,
hugs!

Oh, come to my next art exhibition of the paintings I create:
it is from September 11th to September 24th inclusively 2007,
at the very beautiful La Galerie Le 1040, at, 1040 Marie-Anne Est Street,
Montreal! Bienvenue, yes welcome! This will NOT be an anti-gay nor anti-peace exhibition, as I will be there!!
Artiste L'AngdonArt (LangdonArt)

[souxi]

   

Great post.  I also think BBM is an anti prejudice story.  If Jack and Ennis had been allowed to follow their true feelings and to just be together and love each other I don't think anyone else would have gotten hurt because Alma and Lureen would have been out of the picture.  Ennis would not have married Alma and Jack would never have met Lureen. Of course it didn't work out that way and they had to try to play by society's rules and to make liars out of themselves because society would not have allowed them to do otherwise.

Well said Bucky, I couldn,t have put that better myself. That is exactly right.

[jstephens9]

Bucky, you took the words right out of my mouth  You said exactly what i feel is true and what I believe would have happened if Jack and Ennis could have been together. And the really sad thing is that there are so many people out there right now living the same way. They cannot be themselves because of what society expects from them. The outcome is often that other people become involved in their lives because they feel that they have to live a lie. It is sad, but true.

And Artiste, I am really confused as to why you think this movie is anti-gay. I'm just not quite sure what you mean by that. Please explain further. Thanks.

[Artiste]

In many ways, the Brokeback Mountain movie still hurts me!!

And it does for you too??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Hi to all!!

It seems that this question shocks many?? Maybe??

It remains a subject to see about...

awaiting your news from many or all of you!!

Hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Hi to all!!

It seems that this question shocks many?? Maybe??

It remains a subject to see about...

awaiting your news from many or all of you!!

Hugs!!

Artiste: Brokeback is painful to watch because it portrays painful truths very effectively. The movie is so great that it bores itself into your soul, you can't get away from it. Some people avoid movies, books, sculpture, photography, or fine art that causes them pain. Maybe that is denial on their part. But, in my opinion, the finest role of all of the arts, a category which I place movies in as well, is to make us reach into ourselves and thereby better understand ourselves and our roles in life. Maybe labelling Brokeback as "anti-Gay" is just denial of some very painful truths. You asked a very good question, I think a question that goes to the heart of why the impact of Brokeback endures and will endure for sometime into the future.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I think that the Brokeback Mountain movie has flaws, and too many, but it is mainly an ANTI-GAY movie!!

I do not know if you are straight, gay or consider yourself something else?? That can make a difference!

I am a gay man. I see more and more that this movie is ANTI-GAY, and in many ways!!

This movie was made by straights, you know that?

Hugs!

[tampatalon]

I am befuddled. As gay male I cannot see why the movie would be anti-gay? I think the movie reallly nailed what a "BrokeBack Marriage" could be like. All I know is the movie will forever hold a piece of my heart.

TampaTalon ^">

[Artiste]

Thanks tampatalon!

As I, I think that maybe you are wishful thinking that the BM movie is pro-gay, but I know that it is anti-gay in many ways!!

Finding out the ways that it is anti-gay?

Hugs!

[brokebackjack]

In what ways could Brokeback Mountain be considered an anti gay film.

Please, list in detail!

Hugs Artiste!

[Artiste]

Hi and thanks brokebackjack!

In many ways, the Brokeback Mountain film is anti-gay!

Firstly, you find out one way, and then you will get one detail too!!

Otherwise, tell me one detail that makes it pro-gay according to you??

Hugs!

[Shasta542]

Does it have to be labeled as pro-gay or anti-gay? "Brokeback Mountain" tells a story of 2 gay men who loved each other and who responded to that love in different ways. I just think it's pro-love maybe. It seems to urge people to be themselves and helps us see how a true love can be very painful. I think it makes people more willing to accept that love can come to them in all different ways.

[Artiste]

Thanks Shasta542!

But it is much more than that!!

Yes??

Hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Does it have to be labeled as pro-gay or anti-gay? "Brokeback Mountain" tells a story of 2 gay men who loved each other and who responded to that love in different ways. I just think it's pro-love maybe. It seems to urge people to be themselves and helps us see how a true love can be very painful. I think it makes people more willing to accept that love can come to them in all different ways.

Yes, that is very well said! thank you for summing up my feelings.

[Shasta542]

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

I think that the Brokeback Mountain movie has flaws, and too many, but it is mainly an ANTI-GAY movie!!

I do not know if you are straight, gay or consider yourself something else?? That can make a difference!

I am a gay man. I see more and more that this movie is ANTI-GAY, and in many ways!!

This movie was made by straights, you know that?

Hugs!

Hi Artiste, thank you for your thoughts and your question.
To answer you, I am Gay.
 But I disagree with you that BBM is anti-Gay. It really is a realistic portrait of how some gay / bisexual men have lived and continue to live their lives in the closet. All of the pain, the lying, the frustrations, the collateral damage of wrecked marriages, emotionally hurting wives and children.
It is a very painful movie, but it shows the truth. Although, I have been "out" to most family and friends since I went off to college long ago, the love of my life was a deeply closeted man. He and I had a relationship that was also closeted, I didn't even discuss my love for Chris with my Gay friends. I guess I lead a double Gay life. But, he was the man that I loved. I dealt with so many problems thru the years that I couldn't write it all down in one setting. To sum up what I am trying to say :  I know that what Ennis and Jack experienced is true to life, I saw similar problems emerge for Chris as he and I grew older, and he continued to stay closeted and deep down inside homophobic.
I noticed your comment about how the movie was "made by straights". Well, yes that is true. And, I am IN AWE OF THE GENIUS of Ang Lee, Annie Proulx, the Mcmurty /Ossana team, Heath Ledger, and Jake Gyllenhaal for hitting a home run on this movie/ short story / screenplay.

All the best!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I am in awe of Annie having written such a story; I do not think that she stresses violence as that capital, and if so, not that too much as in the movie!

We, as gay men, can be wishful thinking... but that is NOT enough!
Million (maybe millions) of gays from different countries were let into gas chambers in WW11 and from different countries (some were democratic ones)!! To-day, thousands of gay men are murdered legally (because only they are gay men) in too many so-called religious countries, such as islamic ones!! But no one talks that much nor try to stop that to-day, nor for the future. I think Annie tries to stop that NOW and for the future!!

That too much violence, is one way that it makes it anti-gay to me, this Brokeback Mountain movie!

Con artists are clever... indeed! And too many are violent, as passing themselves as peaceful, as drug pushers are!! But we gay men, tend to accept... too many con jobs!! ?? I still see, as some other gay men, too many negatives for gay men, in this BM movie!! Is it only wishful thinking to think that this movie is without flaw(s)??

Hugs!

[David In Indy]

Hi Artiste! 

I'm sure Brokeback Mountain has some flaws. Nothing is perfect. But, I think BBM is probably as close to perfection as the movie industry has come so far. I can think of several movies about gay men and women that I consider nearly perfect, and BBM is definitely one of them. The movie showed society some of the injustices perpetrated against gay people, and it was done in a very raw and "in your face" sort of way. It helped (or is helping) to wake society and this is why I consider the movie groundbreaking. 

[Artiste]

Thanks David!

Somehow, that BM movie is not for gay men, hard to point that to you and to others!! ??

Hugs!

[Scott6373]

The film and story are about homophobia, but not simply external homophobia.  It is largely about internalized homophobia, and the havoc and devastation it creates, not only for the individual, but for all those who love them.  In fact, I would go as far as to say, that it is entirely about internalized, rather than external oppression.  In that aspect, it can be viewed as tragedy, and a very well done tragedy at that.  Again, it depends on what the social situation is in 30 years.  It is still, however, a brilliant piece of film making.

[Artiste]

Thanks Scott!

I think that I understand you, very well! You write brilliantly that!

I will try to understand much more too, your way, that way!!

I still feel that is is ALSO an anti-gay movie, especially the way it was cut? Do you?

Hugs!

[brokebackjack]

I think scott said it beautifully. And no, I don't think it was antigay at all....

[Artiste]

Thanks brokebackjack, and thanks to you too Shasta (sorry I forgot you)!!

I still find the BM movie anti-gay in many ways, and I think too in some ways, hopefully, that it is pro-gay in a way!! That remains to be said with proofs, by all!!

Presently, I am concerned that many on different numerous internet sites, are angry at Ennis and Jack getting married!! Too many women are angry, I repeat, at the main charactors, because they got married!! Why?

Hugs!!

[Marge_Innavera]

I still find the BM movie anti-gay in many ways, and I think too in some ways, hopefully, that it is pro-gay in a way!! That remains to be said with proofs, by all!!

You been repeating that for three pages now, but as yet no examples to back it up.

[Artiste]

Thanks  Marge_Innavera!

I think that I did! Did you bring proofs otherwise?

Any way, you consider likely pro-female here this BM film since you are a woman? Right? Like Ennis and Jack should NOT have married??

May I guess? Awaiting your replies,

hugs!

[Scott6373]

Thanks  Marge_Innavera!

I think that I did! Did you bring proofs otherwise?

Any way, you consider likely pro-female here this BM film since you are a woman? Right? Like Ennis and Jack should NOT have married??

May I guess? Awaiting your replies,

hugs!

You seem to be falling into the same trap that many have when discussing the choices that these characters made in their respective lives.  You are judging them and their behavior by todays standards, level of knowledge and understanding.  You cannot apply the sensibilities of today to these characters.  This is a period piece, and that fact seems to get very lost in your argument.  In 1963, it was not at all uncommon for gay men and women to marry (the opposite sex).

[Artiste]

Yesterday, I tried to answer you, but my writing vanished.

Have no time to-day right now to do so.

Later?

At least, you all can think pros and cons (both) on this subject?

Hugs!

[jstephens9]

The film and story are about homophobia, but not simply external homophobia.  It is largely about internalized homophobia, and the havoc and devastation it creates, not only for the individual, but for all those who love them.  In fact, I would go as far as to say, that it is entirely about internalized, rather than external oppression.  In that aspect, it can be viewed as tragedy, and a very well done tragedy at that.  Again, it depends on what the social situation is in 30 years.  It is still, however, a brilliant piece of film making.

Scott, that is exactly the way I see the homophobia in this movie, more an internalized homophobia particularly for Ennis, than an external homophobia. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, there really is very little sad about homosexuality from the straight people in the movie. Aguirre comes the closest to expressing homophobia. I still say a lot of what Alma says is more about jealousy and not understanding the situation.

[Artiste]

There are a lot of things that makes the Brokeback Mountain movie in its present form, an anti-gay one!

One thing is exactly Ennis's wife... as she seems obviously anti-gay after ALL these years! It is much more than jealousy! That is likely why many or too many women dislike the two main gays in this movie, and tends to be therefore, anti-gay!

Is that so too done that way by Annie?

Hugs!

[brokebackjack]

If IIIIIIIII was Alma, and he had told ME 'Once Burned', I would have hit him with that plate. And that's not anti-gay that's anti-dumbbell of an ex husband!!!

He was burned?? omg

[tampatalon]

There are a lot of things that makes the Brokeback Mountain movie in its present form, an anti-gay one!

One thing is exactly Ennis's wife... as she seems obviously anti-gay after ALL these years! It is much more than jealousy! That is likely why many or too many women dislike the two main gays in this movie, and tends to be therefore, anti-gay!

Artiste, I think if Alma was a fagarella, there would not be much of a plot line in the book. The strait woman I know that saw it don't hate Jack & Ennis although they were thoroughly shocked by the FNIT scene.

TampaTalon ^">

[Artiste]

Since I do NOT understand the last 3 of you, I am asking you to elaborate... please.

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!!

[Scott6373]

Hell I am still waiting for you to explain what makes Brokeback Mountain an anti-gay movie?

[Artiste]

Thanks Scott!

Have you considered that there is an accent on the women, on Ennis and Jack's wifes??

Is that not TOO strong to make the BM pro-gay??

Hugs!

[Scott6373]

Thanks Scott!

Have you considered that there is an accent on the women, on Ennis and Jack's wifes??

Is that not TOO strong to make the BM pro-gay??

Hugs!

No...you are focusing on the depicted homosexuality far to literally.  As I have said before, the sexuality, and the setting (rural west) were tools that the author used to illustrate her moral lesson:  Self acceptance, accountability, and intolerance.

Alma was no more educated than any other character.  What she saw, was her husband displaying passion with someone other than her.  Passion that was gone from their drab existence.  Passion that she desperately wanted, and was promised.  How would you react? 

As for Lureen;  She knew about her husband.  Most women of certain life situations know.  She just didn't care, other than her pride being bruised.  She only married Jack to piss off her father, so in that case, both parties were using the other.

Again, as I have said, this film was not made with the intent of being some great anti-homophobia statement.  It's intent was much simpler and purer in nature.

[brokebackjack]

well the whole tale is a story of what we call DRH, destructive rural homophobia. So we have to remember that. It is all contained within the framework created by Annie, who will TELL you it is a story about a self hating character  [Ennis] and a marginally skilled character [Jack]....Ask FrontRanger, she was there for that. And Annie told me, myself,  at other times that this story cannot be divorced from DRH. It is what it is about; everything is within that framework. This story is about the total destruction caused to EVERYONE intimately involved with Jack and Ennis by DRH.
--------------------------------------------------

Alma saw them on the steps. She KNEW.

Lureen had it all come together during the telephone call with Ennis. She was in love with Jack.
------------------------------------------------

and what I meant artiste was that if I was Alma, in the thanksgiving kitchen scene of the movie, I would have hit Ennis over the head with a dinner plate.

what a DOPE he could be. jesus.

[jstephens9]

Artiste, one thing I hope you are not saying is that women like the movie because they are anti gay. I'm really not sure what you are saying, but I know you said something about a female here being pro women and hating the gays. Like I say, I'm not positive what you meant. I just want to make sure that you know this group is almost half women and they are certainly not anti gay. Like I say, just want to make sure you know that.

Jack

[Artiste]

Thanks jstephens9, thanks brokebackjack, and thanks Scott!!!

I am surprised by your anwers, jstephens9 and brokebackjack, as well as yours too Scott but a little less (I do not know why less)!!!

However, on second thought, should I be surprised that you 3 are all males? Why no females on this subject? I must have gotten on something?

It seems evident that the BM movie is anti-gay, or should I say now: that females now like to dislike gays in more than one way because of this BM movie?

1- Concerning Scott's reply, he says that I am focusing far too much: on the depicted homosexuality far too literally? So there, you Scott are telling me that the BM movie is NOT on gay-men-living principally? Therefore, the BM movie is for straights??

2- Brokebackjack, you say that the BM movie is about: destructive rural homophobia? To that, may I say that it is also about destructive CITY homophobia TOO?

3- And stephens9, likely it seems evident according to some internet sites that some women are anti-gay after seeing this BM movie, as they say so! Other women accentuate that those (what they call GAY-men) should not at all have married to ladies!! That concerns me... a lot; why should not gay men marry women?

Well, here are maybe 3 ways that the BM movie is anti-gay??? Be happy to read
your news,

hugs!!!

[ifyoucantfixit]

       They are saying that he was out of line...he made a rude statement to her,,,as if the divorce was  her fault.
"Once burned."  He wasnt burned...she was...!!!

[Artiste]

Thanks if youcantfixit, and thanks Susiebell!!

Susiebell: I know many gay men who married a women, and are still married and happy being 40, 50 or 60 years married!! Others are separated, just like between two straights: a female and a male!! You tell me the difference to what you say?

Ifyoucantfixit: At least Ennis still saw his wife after she re-married another man!! It seems to me that Ennis' wife stayed too long and is still thinking about Ennis to get him back even at that washing dishes scene??

Yes, i find that the BM movie anti-gay in many ways!! I am a gay man and think that, among other things!

Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks jstephens9, thanks brokebackjack, and thanks Scott!!!

I am surprised by your anwers, jstephens9 and brokebackjack, as well as yours too Scott but a little less (I do not know why less)!!!

However, on second thought, should I be surprised that you 3 are all males? Why no females on this subject? I must have gotten on something?

It seems evident that the BM movie is anti-gay, or should I say now: that females now like to dislike gays in more than one way because of this BM movie?

I still don't at all understand how Brokeback can be seen as an "anti-gay" film.  It portrays the complex aspects of things that happened in the lives of the two men and not all of the things in their lives were entirely positive... there were some unfortunate choices made, etc. by ALL the characters in the movie.  But, there are also wonderful and poignant things about their lives that are portrayed.  The thing that's so great about Brokeback is that it does look at the lives of these two main characters in a very complex way.  In my opinion, Proulx in her writing and the filmmakers of the movie all worked to portray Jack and Ennis in a very, very sympathetic way most of the time.  I think the heartbreak and the emotional impact of Brokeback depends on the viewer (any viewer... gay, straight, male or female) identifying with and sympathizing with the situation that Jack and Ennis find themselves in.  I think the idea of any audience member identifying with the two male protagonists is somehow linked to the idea that Brokeback portrays "universal" love.

And, as far as the topic of women goes... Men aren't the only gay people out there.  I'd like to point out that some women are in fact gay (like me) or bisexual. And, the women on these boards in all of my experience here are far, far, far from being "anti-gay".  In fact, the women here (gay, straight or bisexual), I would guess have a deep sense of support for the gay community.  And, I think it's particularly unfair to say that somehow Brokeback causes women "to dislike gays".  I really don't see the evidence for that. 

Artiste, one thing I hope you are not saying is that women like the movie because they are anti gay. I'm really not sure what you are saying, but I know you said something about a female here being pro women and hating the gays. Like I say, I'm not positive what you meant. I just want to make sure that you know this group is almost half women and they are certainly not anti gay. Like I say, just want to make sure you know that.

Jack

And, I also wanted to thank Jack for this nice post.   Thanks for jumping in here with this.

[brokeplex]

Ifyoucantfixit: At least Ennis still saw his wife after she re-married another man!! It seems to me that Ennis' wife stayed too long and is still thinking about Ennis to get him back even at that washing dishes scene??

Yes, i find that the BM movie anti-gay in many ways!! I am a gay man and think that, among other things!

Hugs!

Hi Artiste, thank you for your observations about Alma. I think that perhaps it is misinterpreted that Alma is anti-gay. Alma was deeply hurt by Ennis, as nothing in her life could have prepared her for the fact that Ennis was in love with another man. She simple couldn't deal with it. But, Ennis was the love of her life.Just as Ennis was the love of Jack's life. Wow! Think about how lucky Ennis was, to have two wonderful people in love with him. The Thanksgiving scene in 1977 while washing up the dishes was so very powerful because it showed Alma in her own way trying to reconcile her anger and her love for Ennis, and trying I think to preserve a relationship between Ennis and his daughters. She was trying to "clear the air", trying to say to Ennis what she might have said back in 1967, but couldn't. Had Alma been succesful and established a candid dialog with Ennis overcoming his denial, the situation could have been improved enormously in what was left of their relationships as ex-husbands and wives. But, the fear in Ennis of being exposed overroad all else and he responded to her attempt at communication with a brutal assault.
She is most definitely not anti-gay. Alma is an admirable character who attempeted to transend all of the prejudices and misconceptions of her upbringing.
Artiste, I still can't figure out why you think Brokeback is anti-gay, but I really enjoy reading the dialog your comment has elicited from Bettermostians. have a good weekend.

[ifyoucantfixit]

    I have been re reading this thread.. I think you Are looking at a lot of issues, what you consider as gay rights or gay
experience.  And if you dont get people to agree with your ideas, they are homophobic or anti gay, or however you
put it.  You claim the movie is anti gay because it doesnt fulfill your ideas about how gays should be treated.
    First you think gay men should be able to marry women and if the women dont like the way they are treated by
that.  Then the women are anti gay.
    If the movie shows you that people in the rural area didnt like gay lifestyles,  Then the movie is anti gay.  If we dont
support gay rodeos, then we are anti gay.  If we dont agree with your ideas about the movie, we are anti gay.
    It that is true, then i guess i am homophobic...I will now own it...two times in one day is enough to make a believer
out of me.  I think that you have your own phobias too, that you are unwilling to admit..You dont like anyone that isnt
gay.  Its pretty obvious to me.  There are no more things to answer to you.  So if you cant accept any of the answers
you have been given.  You arent sincere and dont want answers but only to cause controversy.  Because every time you
get an answer, you change the question..Or you say they dont give you proof.  This is starting to annoy people, because
you dont ever accept any of the proofs you are given. 


 ((((((( Hugs ))))))

[yb]

Janice, thanks for summing up Artists' posts, I tried but never have the patience to work them out.

[jstephens9]

I also haven't quite figured out what Artiste is saying, but I think Janice might have something there in saying that Artiste seems to not like anyone who is not gay. However, I'm still not sure if that is what he is saying. I'm really not sure. I will read the posts again  Anyway, I can only speak for myself that I have lots and lots of straight friends as well as gay friends and MANY of these are friends I have made here on Bettermost which exists because of BBM. So saying the movie is anti-gay makes it seem that this group would not even exist since we have many straight people, gay people, bisexual people, etc. How would this group ever be able to get along so well if we all hated each other because some of us are gay? As I believe I have said before some of my very best friends here on Bettermost are straight women, some are gay men, some are gay women and some are even bisexual. As I see it we all get along like a big family. Sometimes, like a family, we even have disagreements. Sometimes we say things that hurt others, but usually we think about and try to make amends which is usually successful. This is not always true in all forums, but I sure do see that it is here so far. We are always willing to listen to each others thoughts and ideas. And nobody ever gets tossed to the side if their ideas don't fit in exactly as the majority thinks.

Jack

[jstephens9]

Oh yeah, I also want to add straight males to that list of friends I have from Bettermost. Yes, we do have straight males such as Monica's husband David and there are many more.

[Artiste]

Thanks Susiebell!   (I will try to reply to others later.)

Yes, there are gay men who do marry straight women and OTHER women.

I did know a gay man who married a lesbian but he did not know that she was one. That he told me.
I forget if that is so in a film they did on her life especially.

So, this is one way?  The BM movie maybe touches this point too (making it a bit anti-gay that way)?

Hugs!

[jstephens9]

Sorry Artiste but I am still confused as to why you keep saying the movie is anti-gay. Apparently I am just not getting what you are saying.

[Artiste]

Thanks Susiebell!

There are gay men who are gay, others who are bi, I guess.

I do NOT see these two men (Ennis and Jack) in the BM movie as cheating on their wives, as it another world!!

You see that?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks Susiebell!

It seems that those two wives were cheating on their husbands?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks Susiebell!

Lureen was the agressive one and she knows that it was not Jack who did choose her! I do not think that Jack let Lureen down... except maybe sexually at the end since he seems to say so at the ending of the movie because she does not want sex or goes elsewhere for it, as one reason among others?

As for Alma, she is not that innocent?? She does marry a second time and quickly, plus she causes troubles too with Ennis way before that!! And there is something else?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks Susiebell!

Lureen was the agressive one and she knows that it was not Jack who did choose her! I do not think that Jack let Lureen down... except maybe sexually at the end since he seems to say so at the ending of the movie because she does not want sex or goes elsewhere for it, as one reason among others?

As for Alma, she is not that innocent?? She does marry a second time and quickly, plus she causes troubles too with Ennis way before that!! And there is something else?

Hugs!

Hi Artiste! haven't read anything from you in a while! hope all is well. I was puzzled with your comment that Alma causes trouble for Ennis. I sure don't see that. Alma was an innocent loving person.I also see Alma as a wonderful long-suffering person, who loved Ennis, was patient with Ennis, and finally after 10 + years, she had enough. She left Ennis for the other man who was kind and gentle with her and could provide financial security for her children. What is wrong with that? Ennis refused to "better himself", and lets not forget, Ennis was a good stockman - he had potential for advancement. Aguirre saw that when he looked at Ennis thru the binoculars. Ennis could have at least applied for the job with the electric company.
Lureen may have been aggressive, but Jack made a decision to marry her. He understood himself a lot better than Ennis understood himself. I am definitely not without sympathy for Ennis and Jack, but I think that they were both of then lucky and unlucky in different ways. I don't blame the women they married a bit.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I am perplexed by the wives: of Ennis, as well as by Jack's wife!! To me, those two wives got what they wanted, according to the movie!! Concerning Annie's story, maybe that is different?

I do not blame the women for getting married to those two men, nor  am I blaming at all their two husbands, because they did what they could as their wives did likewise!! Qu'est-ce sera sera, yes whatever is, is; as the song goes!! Then, now, and in the future too in our societies!!! There are some changes in our civilisations, but there remains dangers too!!

Yes, Alma causes many troubles for Ennis, it seems so in the BM movie!! She is the one who refuses her husband!
One can not blame one nor the other? It seems that life is hard for both!! The fact that Ennis loves Jack, is not for her to blame her husband nor Jack?? !! But she does blame Jack??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

Thanks Susiebell!

If you notice, Alma does blame Jack for the breaking of her marriage... right? !!

Is this NOT one way that the BM movie states that it is anti-gay?

And you can find many other ways?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

I am perplexed by the wives: of Ennis, as well as by Jack's wife!! To me, those two wives got what they wanted, according to the movie!! Concerning Annie's story, maybe that is different?

I do not blame the women for getting married to those two men, nor  am I blaming at all their two husbands, because they did what they could as their wives did likewise!! Qu'est-ce sera sera, yes whatever is, is; as the song goes!! Then, now, and in the future too in our societies!!! There are some changes in our civilisations, but there remains dangers too!!

Yes, Alma causes many troubles for Ennis, it seems so in the BM movie!! She is the one who refuses her husband!
One can not blame one nor the other? It seems that life is hard for both!! The fact that Ennis loves Jack, is not for her to blame her husband nor Jack?? !! But she does blame Jack??

Hugs!!

Good morning Artiste! You are a tenacious fellow! You never give up! I admire that quality.One of these days, I'm going to travel up Montreal again and have a look at your paintings. Anyone this tenacious must be a fantastic painter!
You mention something in your above post that caused me again to write back, you write that "...Alma causes many troubles for Ennis......She is the one who refuses her husband!" Artiste I don't think the "refusal" was "trouble" for Ennis, Alma simply didn't want anymore children and wanted Ennis to put on a condom. Ennis couldn't be bothered, that aspect of his character I really didn't like. And I am not going to defend him by claiming that he was a product or his rural upbringing decades ago. His attitude was that of a jerk in any time or culture. Men who are gentlemen share equal rights with their partners in bedroom activities. That was true decades ago and today. It was Alma's right to decide whether to have intercourse with Ennis, condom or no condom. What I see is Alma attempting to accomodate Ennis, but she didn't want anymore children that they couldn't afford. So, Ennis being a jerk, just rolled over and went to sleep. "D-I-V-O-R-C-E!"

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Wow... you do mention something that maybe makes the BM movie anti-gay: condom, usage or not! ??

Is this subject of condom in Annie's story?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks Sussiebell!

You say: Of course she blames Jack!  ... and not because he's gay but because he had an affair with her husband!

This is maybe why, in a way, it makes the BM  anti-gay! ?? It seems to me that on Oprah and other shows that women do NOT mind that their husbands play with another man!!

You saw that?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

Wow... you do mention something that maybe makes the BM movie anti-gay: condom, usage or not! ??

Is this subject of condom in Annie's story?

Hugs!

Artiste, in the movie Alma uses the word "protection". I took that to mean that she was referring to a condom. A condom would be the cheapest way for a heterosexual couple of the time (mid 1970's) in the economic circumstance of Alma and Ennis to try to avoid unwanted pregnancies. I really don't understand why this usage makes you think that Brokeback Mountain is anti-gay. Now....... don't give up! Write me back! My psycho Siamese kitty "Zoloft" is trying to walk on top of my keyboard, and I've got lotsa chores in downtown for today, so I may not get back to you for a while.  Have a great day!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

May you have a great day! White snow covering roads, houses, trees, etc., here now! So dress warm your way too?

I must ask straight men especially about such protection!! ?? And ask ladies too!! ?? Maybe a woman then (and now) too used something (other than a condom)?? So it could be that a condom was just used by Alma to get rid of her husband? Alma had an eye on someone else?

This is one reason among others, that make the BM movie anti-gay in some ways! Alama would NOT have been jealous of Jack!!... may I say!!

What do you, and all, think?

Hugs!

[Brown Eyes]

Alma is one of my least favorite characters in the movie.  And the main reason that I don't like her is I feel that she doesn't stand up for herself enough.  Ennis treats her terribly in bed.  We see this early on when he flips her over and she hates it.  I think this is one of the worst scenes regarding Ennis.  I think it's completely wrong to treat your partner that way... to make her have sex in a way that she hates.

So, I wish Alma stood up for herself even back then.  And, the one moment when I do respect her is when she refuses to have sex with Ennis at the end of their marriage.  It's hard for me to understand why she continued to stay in the marriage as long as she did after she learned that Ennis was having an affair... I really don't sympathize much with her decision to stay.  And, I don't think dragging the marriage on was really doing Ennis any favors either.

I do also think Alma is homophobic... which comes out in the Jack Nasty comment.  Her feelings of betrayal at Ennis having any affair are wrapped up in, what I feel, are some latent homophobic feelings for Alma.  I think Alma's criticism of Jack with the "Nasty" comment is what really sends Ennis over the edge in the kitchen scene... for lots of reasons.

Good morning Artiste! You are a tenacious fellow! You never give up! I admire that quality.One of these days, I'm going to travel up Montreal again and have a look at your paintings. Anyone this tenacious must be a fantastic painter!
You mention something in your above post that caused me again to write back, you write that "...Alma causes many troubles for Ennis......She is the one who refuses her husband!" Artiste I don't think the "refusal" was "trouble" for Ennis, Alma simply didn't want anymore children and wanted Ennis to put on a condom. Ennis couldn't be bothered, that aspect of his character I really didn't like. And I am not going to defend him by claiming that he was a product or his rural upbringing decades ago. His attitude was that of a jerk in any time or culture. Men who are gentlemen share equal rights with their partners in bedroom activities. That was true decades ago and today. It was Alma's right to decide whether to have intercourse with Ennis, condom or no condom. What I see is Alma attempting to accomodate Ennis, but she didn't want anymore children that they couldn't afford. So, Ennis being a jerk, just rolled over and went to sleep. "D-I-V-O-R-C-E!"

Hey Bud, I really enjoyed your post and agree with a lot of it.

[Artiste]

Thanks atz75!

Wow... wow, you do describe Alma very well, as in the BM movie!!

You bring up good points as subjects: why did Alma stay that long after seeing especially her husband kiss another man (Jack); plus, is she homophobic?

Concerning these two subjects, is that so in Annie's story, do you think?

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks Susiebell!

I appreciate your candor!

Since it is hard for me to explain and having no time to do so,
maybe we can come back to that or those issues later on.

Maybe there are some subjects in the film that you do find anti-gay? Or discuss it as pro-gay if you prefer??As you seem to think that as it is to you pro-gay!

Hugs!

[souxi]

My dear Artiste, I can see where our differences lie now.  It seems to me that you need to catagorise the film as either anti-gay or pro-gay.  I don't see it as either one of the two.  I simply see it as a story of two people who fall in love and because of prejudices surrounding them and their own fears (by that I mean mostly Ennis), their lives and the lives of the people closest to them, are torn apart.

Take Romeo and Juliet for instance.  I don't see it as anti-heterosexual or pro-heterosexual, anti-young-love or pro-young-love, anti-suicide or pro-suicide.  I simply see it as two people who fall in love and because of prejudices surrounding them and their own fears, their lives and the lives of the people closest to them, are torn apart.

Not pro or anti anything, simply a tragic love story.

Susie   

And that susie, is just how I see the film. It,s a tragic love story about two people, who just happened to be men, who couldn,t be together because of Ennis,s fear of them being killed, and because of the views of narrow minded biggoted people who wouldn,t have been able to leave them alone to get on with their lives in peace.
In Lori,s story, Human Interest, Jack and Ennis are living in Vermont, where, in the story, people there tend to mind their own buisness and let people get on with their lives. Is it really like there? Would Jack and Ennis have been "safe" if they have moved somewhere like that?  Obviously we,ll never know now, I just wondered. I do wish it could be like that, that other people could just mind their own business and let other people live their lives in peace. I know I,m living in gaga land if I think that, but it would be nice.

[souxi]

Can I come and live in Gaga land with you Souxi?  ..... Can Hugh and Jake come too?   

It doesn't seem like too much to ask does it, simply letting people live their lives in peace?  ... maybe some day ....

Susie  

Can Hugh and Jake come too?? Of course they can!! Need you even ask??? btw, Hugh is mineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. All mineeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. muahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. 

[Artiste]

Oh! Oh!

Ennis and Jack living in Vermont!

I did do my art exhibition there and found indeed persons there with an let live way which was interesting!

So you saying that the BM movie is anti-gay souzi? Somehow?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

May you have a great day! White snow covering roads, houses, trees, etc., here now! So dress warm your way too?

I must ask straight men especially about such protection!! ?? And ask ladies too!! ?? Maybe a woman then (and now) too used something (other than a condom)?? So it could be that a condom was just used by Alma to get rid of her husband? Alma had an eye on someone else?

This is one reason among others, that make the BM movie anti-gay in some ways! Alama would NOT have been jealous of Jack!!... may I say!!

What do you, and all, think?

Hugs!

Thank you for your good wishes Artiste! You have no fear that I will catch cold, I am in Ft. Worth TX, and it is 79 Degrees today - I have been walking in a local park in my walking shorts. However,I am a bit jealous of your snow, I always miss it around Christmas.
To respond to your point about condoms, I believe Alma wished Ennis to use "protection" in order to avoid conceiving another child. The Del mar family was apparently struggling to make ends meet with both Ennis's wages as a ranch hand, and with Almas wages at the grocery store. They simply couldn't afford to have another baby.
That is not Anti-Gay, it is simply good sense, of which Ennis had very little. 

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Can we see pic with your shorts on (and/or off, ha! ha!)?

Concerning your comments that you think that Ennis has not much sense, you do not know that I think the opposite?

Since Ennis does not want to use a condom in the movie, maybe that BM film is therefore anti-gay in that sense? At least a bit? Many straight as well as gay men do never use such for protection? !! However, this movie shows Ennis in the back of his wife? !! Why?? (Is this an anti-gay thing by the movie makers?)

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Alma is one of my least favorite characters in the movie.  And the main reason that I don't like her is I feel that she doesn't stand up for herself enough.  Ennis treats her terribly in bed.  We see this early on when he flips her over and she hates it.  I think this is one of the worst scenes regarding Ennis.  I think it's completely wrong to treat your partner that way... to make her have sex in a way that she hates.

So, I wish Alma stood up for herself even back then.  And, the one moment when I do respect her is when she refuses to have sex with Ennis at the end of their marriage.  It's hard for me to understand why she continued to stay in the marriage as long as she did after she learned that Ennis was having an affair... I really don't sympathize much with her decision to stay.  And, I don't think dragging the marriage on was really doing Ennis any favors either.

I do also think Alma is homophobic... which comes out in the Jack Nasty comment.  Her feelings of betrayal at Ennis having any affair are wrapped up in, what I feel, are some latent homophobic feelings for Alma.  I think Alma's criticism of Jack with the "Nasty" comment is what really sends Ennis over the edge in the kitchen scene... for lots of reasons.

Hey Bud, I really enjoyed your post and agree with a lot of it.

I agree with some of what you said above. But,I'm not sure that I can see Alma in an unfavorable light. She really didn't have a lot of options. Yes, divorce was legal in 1960's Wyoming, but she had to think about her children growing up in a conservative ranching town without a father. Back then there was still a huge stigma attached to divorced women. This stigma spilled over onto the children. Also, Alma was still in love with Ennis. Ennis was the love of her life. Yes, I hate the way he treated her -especially "flipping her over" to have sex in the way "he liked". I 'm not sure that went to the level of "assualt" or "rape", had he been deliberately overpowering her with his strength, I would call it assault. But, it was hard for someone as shy and sweet as Alma to stand up to Ennis. She made her compromises and tried to live with it. I give her high marks for really trying to live with an difficult situation.
 I'm not sure that I agree with your comment that Alma's "Jack Nasty" comment was homophobic. I think her comment just reflected her bitterness at the breakup of her marriage, but also I see her trying to re-connect after a fashion with Ennis. In a way I think that she was trying to have the honest conversation with Ennis about his feelings for Jack that she should have had back in 1967 when she first saw Ennis and Jack kissing.  I think that Ennis was sent over the edge because Alma was uncovering the truth about Ennis. For a deeply closeted homophobic man in deep denial such as Ennis, the only reaction that he could conceive of was assault. This wasn't Alma's fault that Ennis reacted the way he did.  

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

Can we see pic with your shorts on (and/or off, ha! ha!)?

Concerning your comments that you think that Ennis has not much sense, you do not know that I think the opposite?

Since Ennis does not want to use a condom in the movie, maybe that BM film is therefore anti-gay in that sense? At least a bit? Many straight as well as gay men do never use such for protection? !! However, this movie shows Ennis in the back of his wife? !! Why?? (Is this an anti-gay thing by the movie makers?)

Hugs!

Sorry Artiste, D.L. will not allow me to post pictures of me in my shorts, on or off. To answer your question about condom usage in heterosexuals, lets take a journey back in time to the 1970's. I don't know how old you are Artiste, but I grew up in the 1960 / 70's. I remember that the overwhelming majority of condom users before the early 1980's were heterosexual men, who mostly used them with their wives and steady girl friends in order to avoid unwanted pregnancies.
Now to the "backdoor" position Ennis takes with Alma. My opinion about that is that Ennis uses it because it reminds him of what he did with Jack. That is just my opinion.
Alma did not like the position, but I think that she was trying to please Ennis, so went along with it. And, perhaps it also would be a form of "birth control". I really think that you are reaching to see anything anti-gay in these scenes.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I grew up too in the sixties! And condoms became popular, I think more and more for straights as well as for gays!

However, I heard rarely of the backdoor positions by a straight man with his wife or girfriend. Maybe there were some who did it often in order to avoid pregnantcy??!! A woman likes that position? Seems that Alma did not, in the BM movie! But she uses it as an excuse to get rid of her husband! No sex means separation between two individuals, certainly in marriage as cancelation of it!

Somehow, I see this as an anti-gay action in this affaire beteen Ennis and Alma, somehow!! ?? This film portraits a bit too much Ennis as a bad person? And this action as one among others makes it maybe anti-gay?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

I grew up too in the sixties! And condoms became popular, I think more and more for straights as well as for gays!

However, I heard rarely of the backdoor positions by a straight man with his wife or girfriend. Maybe there were some who did it often in order to avoid pregnantcy??!! A woman likes that position? Seems that Alma did not, in the BM movie! But she uses it as an excuse to get rid of her husband! No sex means separation between two individuals, certainly in marriage as cancelation of it!

Somehow, I see this as an anti-gay action in this affaire beteen Ennis and Alma, somehow!! ?? This film portraits a bit too much Ennis as a bad person? And this action as one among others makes it maybe anti-gay?

Hugs!

Hi Artiste! Hope you had a wonderful day! I'm not sure I agree with you that Alma uses her dislike of the sexual position that Ennis preferred as an excuse to "get rid of her husband". Alma simply didn't want to get pregnant again, and she also didn't like Ennis's backdoor positioning. That is her option, that is her choice. Ennis could have been more sensitive to her feelings, but he was a jerk so he didn't. To me sexual abstinence or a pause in realtions does not imply the separation of individuals or the cancellation of a marriage. Artiste, I most definitely value your opinion and don't mean to insult you, but I have to say that the attitude that withholding sexual favors is the equivalent of a marriage cancellation seems downright medieval. I'm a really old fashioned kind of guy about many things, but I sure don't look upon sexual relations with someone I love as a "contractual" relationship with sex deliverable on demand.
The portrait of Ennis as a JERK, is not anti-Gay. Ennis for 95% of the movie is simply a wounded closed off person. I've known several Gay and Bisexual men who were to degrees closed off. To a large degree the first love of my life Chris was not only closeted but also closed off. I loved him anyway.

Later on.......

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex.

I like very much your reply. I am an older gay man in my sixties now! I am from a very different time to many, like in the BM movie, as I had my adolescent years in the sixties and never heard of drugs, but of some booze, and tried to smoke so I could talk to someone like even to guys my age and to ask one to dance (with a girl then of course) at parties we did locally with only ones we went to school with!

However, you and I think differently to many to-day and yesterday, and in the future!!! Like gay guys can dance together now, at certain places!! And like certain gay guys can even have sex legally now in their homes, but not everywhere in the world can this happen yet!

Like you, I did like and/or love another man/other men, even when we had no sex anymore or not ever did!! That is maybe being different to others, who do not accept that concept of living?? !! So, I understand Ennis and Jack very much!! As they could not have sex, nor meet, most of the time!!

I often wonder why Jack goes to see others besides Ennis, for sex!! Presently, I think that Jack was more liberated towards sex and acted fast for it, even in straight bars and gay Mexico, and that Ennis became more slowly to liberate himself towards it, and never find another gay man (why?!

Yes, maybe I see that backdoor event by Ennis with his wife, as anti-gay act??

It still does bug me as to why Jack went to have sex accross the border?? !! Is that an anti-gay thing? In a way, the BM film present this as an anti-gay event? It is so if he acts like a straight, I say! And his act here is like a straight? Maybe, I am becoming to think like Annie now with that recent phrases she uses?

More later... as we all think on such acts.

Awaiting your news,

hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex.

I like very much your reply. I am an older gay man in my sixties now! I am from a very different time to many, like in the BM movie, as I had my adolescent years in the sixties and never heard of drugs, but of some booze, and tried to smoke so I could talk to someone like even to guys my age and to ask one to dance (with a girl then of course) at parties we did locally with only ones we went to school with!

However, you and I think differently to many to-day and yesterday, and in the future!!! Like gay guys can dance together now, at certain places!! And like certain gay guys can even have sex legally now in their homes, but not everywhere in the world can this happen yet!

Like you, I did like and/or love another man/other men, even when we had no sex anymore or not ever did!! That is maybe being different to others, who do not accept that concept of living?? !! So, I understand Ennis and Jack very much!! As they could not have sex, nor meet, most of the time!!

I often wonder why Jack goes to see others besides Ennis, for sex!! Presently, I think that Jack was more liberated towards sex and acted fast for it, even in straight bars and gay Mexico, and that Ennis became more slowly to liberate himself towards it, and never find another gay man (why?!

Yes, maybe I see that backdoor event by Ennis with his wife, as anti-gay act??

It still does bug me as to why Jack went to have sex accross the border?? !! Is that an anti-gay thing? In a way, the BM film present this as an anti-gay event? It is so if he acts like a straight, I say! And his act here is like a straight? Maybe, I am becoming to think like Annie now with that recent phrases she uses?

More later... as we all think on such acts.

Awaiting your news,

hugs!

Well, Artiste...now I am beginning to understand you better! I am about 10 years younger than you, and grew up in the late 60's and 70's, but I grew up in a small rural town that was dominated by the industries of the old Texas economy : Cattle, Cotton and Oil. This type of community was very conservative and really compared to childhoods lived in the big city of that same period,it was more like growing up in the late 50's / early 60's! We also didn't have the drug, violence, crime and tension related problems that began to plague later generations. So, I relate to what you have been saying Artiste! But, I'm still not accepting the argument that you make that the movie is anti-Gay!

As an artist you know that just because a work of art does not present a perfectly rosy picture of a subject, that does not mean that the work of art is intended to be  against, contrary to, or hostile to the subject. Sometimes in order to understand something we must show all of the warts. Brokeback does this. It shows the life of rural closeted bisexual men in a truthful manner. It emphasizes some aspects of their lives and limits other aspects of their lives for a truthful artistic purpose.

Artiste,don't you know how lucky you and I are to have lived this long and to finally at long last see lives portrayed on the silver screen which are similar to those we have actually known?

This is the central beauty of Brokeback, it offered this story to a mass audience for the first time.

Hugs to you to buddy!

[Artiste]

Wow, and thanks brokeplex!

I did not know that you are a young stud!  Be assured that I am glad of your comment(s) and thoughts, as well as details. And that I seek more from you (and from others too) may I say!!

I still say that the BM film is anti-gay in many ways... may I re-insert!! (Of course some aspects of it seem or are pro-gay, but the anti-gay ones need to be addressed too I fear!!) This is simply not easy for me to comment on... nor to straights nor to gays especially about it being anti-gay!!  As the movie is complex, so is it that it presents too much an anti-gay feeling about it!! I am not the only one gay to say that! I know of straights not to like it too! I have viewed alone again this film yesterday, for the third time, because the first or second times were too much hardships for me and/or for my brother. 

Gays, some or many, do feel that it is anti-gay!! ?? You know that?

You do seem to sum up that the BM movie is pro-gay, is that so?

I agree with you that this film is offered to a mass audience for the first time as a gay one. But it does so for much more a straight audience?

Hugs!

P.S. Have you seen the movie: LOVE?

[brokeplex]

Wow, and thanks brokeplex!

I did not know that you are a young stud! 

You are a delight Artiste! You have just made D.L. ,who is looking over my shoulder at the web site laugh out loud, he is a 26 year old version of Ennis Del Mar (he doesn't laugh much), and I'm still 51 years old! later on Artiste........

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

You are making me laugh too at your delightful heartfelt comment!!


Will D.L. wear Ennis clothes too??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

You are making me laugh too at your delightful heartfelt comment!!


Will D.L. wear Ennis clothes too??

Hugs!

sometimes he does get a little bit cowboy....I think I'll send you a private message as we are using up thread space for personal messages.Sorry!

[Artiste]

Thanks!

Does D.L. think that the BM movie is pro-gay or anti-gay??

In some parts or mainly so??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks!

Does D.L. think that the BM movie is pro-gay or anti-gay??

In some parts or mainly so??

Hugs!

D.L. is a closeted man who is making the slow and painful adjustments towards acceptance of his feelings and his nature. The first time, he watched the movie was on DVD in my house with the blinds shut tight. He never would go to the theater with me to see it, he even called it "that gay sheepherder movie" and smirked at me. One day, last summe just before I left for my weeks up in Montana,I caught him just staring at my "Brokeback Mountain" DVD with a kind of regretful look on his face, he didn't know I was watching him. I quietly slinked away so that he couldn't see that I had seen him. Later I asked him, "well, so what movie do you want to watch with your popcorn, how about a great old classic sci-fi like "Forbidden Planet" (one of my all time favorites). He didn't say anything, he just walked over to the DVD player and popped in "Brokeback Mountain". I maintained absolute silence for two hours except for grabbing his glass each time he emptied it and filling it up again.

[Artiste]

Wow, Brokeplex, you sure can write great!

I did not dare go to the cinema with my gay brother and his friend... last year or two years ago? But I did bug him more than once to give me details afterwards about the BM movie, which he stated was a period piece of the 60's! And that shocked me, as I think that he found it violent? ! And very sad!

Then, I think I discovered parts of the film on the internet like on YouTube?

So this year when I visited another brother down south, I managed to get the BM movie when I went with him to rent films! He, a straight, did not know about it! But when it started with Ennis backing Jack in that sex tent, my brother quickly stopped that part, yelling, and advanced the movie to one of the next parts! Wonder why?

I too the second time I saw the BM movie was in mother's kitchen, but I found it too violent and too sad!! I could not cope for months!! So I did think that maybe I should pull down the drapes, but I did not. Persons passing by could easily see what I watched. That was last year. And last Saturday late afternon alone here, I watched it for the 3rd time. Again, it came to my mind to pull the draps for safety comfort, as I am still afraid of someone seeing me and beating me up! I lost my previous house to a criminal whom I fought for over 20 years, and who sent 4 persons to hit me and leave me for dead!! So watching the BM with open blinds is quite a task for me, even at my mother's house! WE have now troubles with the immediate back neighbours, and maybe because I am a gay man?? !!

You details of D.L. are warm. I still would like to now if he finds that BM movie pro-gay or anti-gay?? And at which period of his life he sees it?? !!

And/or givefurtherly your thoughts  of him and that?

Hugs!

[tampatalon]

Oh that stunned feeling when one first sees Brokeback. I remember leaving the theatre numb. What was I feeling? Words had no description and I have been lost in the world of Brokeback ever since or should I say that I have found my way because of Brokeback. It has lead me to validate my own existance and and finished the story in my own life. I admire Aritiste that you are opening doors for the next generation by standing up to the anti-Gays. You have a great resevoir!

TampaTalon^">

[Artiste]

Thanks tampatalon!

It is a gray and dark day here even at 11 this morning, you bring in the sunshine to my heart!!

Like you tampatalon, I am puzzled as well as happy about the BM movie, and still find it hard. I did find it too hard before I met you all at Bettermost. So, you all have helped me... and others! Thanks! Your continued friendship, courage, details of your lives, etc., help tremendously! I don't know if I could survived otherwise that good!

Three years and two years ago, the BM movie as trailer parts helped me as I played that over and over again the many days I was in the art gallery in Quebec City... as I felt so lonely! That to see and heard words and music helped me, but somehow disturbed me further!!  Is this movie anti-gay? That never came to my mind then thank goodness!!

I continued at times to play it, even sometimes when visitors came in!! One day a young couple came in, and maybe I had the BM trailer on. So they looked at my paintings I created that year, and suddenly, she said she did not believe in God! She exclaimed frankly that!! He was so surpised that he was shocked! They talked about that as a subject!! It was frank! I do not know if they are now married, as they had planned or they are now separated!! Did my paintings create such? Or now I think that maybe the BM movie trailer did?

If the BM movie is anti-gay, is it anti-god? If the BM movie is pro-gay, is it anti-god or pro-god? Should I ask that as a question?  Because of my up-bringing and because of my hard times in life as well as being a gay man, I do know that their is God, but why some do not?  If the BM film is pro or against God, does it affect more a gay man to think about God ??

At least the BM film helps us, in many ways!! Guess this is a day to be puzzled about that subject too as well as if the BM movie is maybe or not anti-gay??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Wow, Brokeplex, you sure can write great!

I did not dare go to the cinema with my gay brother and his friend... last year or two years ago? But I did bug him more than once to give me details afterwards about the BM movie, which he stated was a period piece of the 60's! And that shocked me, as I think that he found it violent? ! And very sad!

Then, I think I discovered parts of the film on the internet like on YouTube?

So this year when I visited another brother down south, I managed to get the BM movie when I went with him to rent films! He, a straight, did not know about it! But when it started with Ennis backing Jack in that sex tent, my brother quickly stopped that part, yelling, and advanced the movie to one of the next parts! Wonder why?

I too the second time I saw the BM movie was in mother's kitchen, but I found it too violent and too sad!! I could not cope for months!! So I did think that maybe I should pull down the drapes, but I did not. Persons passing by could easily see what I watched. That was last year. And last Saturday late afternon alone here, I watched it for the 3rd time. Again, it came to my mind to pull the draps for safety comfort, as I am still afraid of someone seeing me and beating me up! I lost my previous house to a criminal whom I fought for over 20 years, and who sent 4 persons to hit me and leave me for dead!! So watching the BM with open blinds is quite a task for me, even at my mother's house! WE have now troubles with the immediate back neighbours, and maybe because I am a gay man?? !!

You details of D.L. are warm. I still would like to now if he finds that BM movie pro-gay or anti-gay?? And at which period of his life he sees it?? !!

And/or givefurtherly your thoughts  of him and that?

Hugs!

Artiste! Sorry about all of the pain you have felt. There are many very angry people out there who look for victims. We simply must refuse to be victims. To answer your question as to whether D.L. considers the movie to be "Pro or Anti-Gay". D.L. does not see the movie in those terms. He understands how the closet and homophobia doomed Jack and Ennis, especially as I have told him in great detail the love I shared with Chris and my frustrations thru the decades with that relationship with a closeted man. He does see to a large extent how all of this relates to him, but DENIAL is not only a river in Egypt. We have plenty of "deniability" here in Texas, and D.L. is partially in denial. But he has made so much progress, he is a very different person than he was just 5 years ago when I met him. As I tell him, acceptance of ourselves is a long journey, and I offer D.L. as much patience as he needs and more. I never push, I just gently guide him along on his journey.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Yes, there are some angry persons out there. WE all take turns, I guess in being that!  Some angry people do look for victims... as you say, and this can be said of Ennis who gets out of his truck and too quickly walks towards the other side of the street, but is nearly hit by a truck in which he hits the driver!! ?? Remember that? Is that an anti-gay thing?

Last Saturday morning, down the hill here, a young man of 14 years of age, is alledged to murder  a lady! There are also other youths which are puzzles to me!! Maybe he is gay and refused the lady who was refusing him?? Just an idea - a wild one?? Or could it be vice versa?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

Yes, there are some angry persons out there. WE all take turns, I guess in being that!  Some angry people do look for victims... as you say, and this can be said of Ennis who gets out of his truck and too quickly walks towards the other side of the street, but is nearly hit by a truck in which he hits the driver!! ?? Remember that? Is that an anti-gay thing?

Hugs!

Where is this scene in the movie Artiste? I just can't remember right now what scene you are referring to?

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Last Saturday, I  made some notes on paper as I was seeing the BM movies for the 3rd time.
Looking quickly at these, that scene seems to be nearly 3/4 in the story then... as it is likely after when Ennis's former wife washes dishes with him but she yells out Jack NANCY, and so Ennis rushes out and drives his truck to go to calm down at a bar.

Ree-see that?? ... someone says: asshole watch were you are going! Who says that?

Hugs!

(Since mother is coming back from south to-day, I must rush to try to clean the house since I have been alone here for a few days as Ennis or Jack??)

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

Last Saturday, I  made some notes on paper as I was seeing the BM movies for the 3rd time.
Looking quickly at these, that scene seems to be nearly 3/4 in the story then... as it is likely after when Ennis's former wife washes dishes with him but she yells out Jack NANCY, and so Ennis rushes out and drives his truck to go to calm down at a bar.

Ree-see that?? ... someone says: asshole watch were you are going! Who says that?

Hugs!

(Since mother is coming back from south to-day, I must rush to try to clean the house since I have been alone here for a few days as Ennis or Jack??)

Oh, of course, when the oil field roughneck beats the crap out of Ennis! Ennis was punishing himself, he put himself in harms way. You have only seen Brokeback Mountain 3 times? Mercy! There are days after the DVD was released that I have watched it 3 times in a day, I got so obsessed after the DVD was released. You have much more patience than me!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Yes, I have watched the BM movie only 3 times so far!!! And will more often now!!

But I could not before, finding it too painful... and even anti-gay in certain ways, as well as pro-gay maybe?? !!

Daily for months, the many clips on YouTube as well as the trailer or varied trailers helped me a lot, but were also very much pain for me!! Somehow, they helped... I think!!

It was most certainly the Bettermost members, including toi (yes, you), that helped tremendously! I think that I can watch that BM film as often as I want now?? !!

Why does the film include Ennis getting beaten by that oil field roughneck? Is that written by Annie? What do you think?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

She yells out "Jack NASTY", not "Nancy".   

I love Artiste! he make us look at things from a different perspective......I never would have considered that she said "Jack Nancy", But you know, that is too funny to pass up!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Glad that is funny for you!

In a way, that is what she is saying! See that actress really being nasty about Jack in her talk at Thanksgiving saying so in ways to her former husband Ennis:
she sure seems to rub Ennis by calling Jack with feelings as Jack is nasty according to her!!

She blames Jack to take away Ennis from her, even her marriage!! But she is jealous? Or she is being worst than that? That is one sign that the BM is anti-gay, to me!

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

Glad that is funny for you!

In a way, that is what she is saying! See that actress really being nasty about Jack in her talk at Thanksgiving saying so in ways to her former husband Ennis:
she sure seems to rub Ennis by calling Jack with feelings as Jack is nasty according to her!!

She blames Jack to take away Ennis from her, even her marriage!! But she is jealous? Or she is being worst than that? That is one sign that the BM is anti-gay, to me!

Hugs!

I'm sorry Artiste you may not have gotten the joke, it is kind of an inside joke.

 The word "Nancy" which you used instead of "Nasty" is archaic slur word used to characterize all gay men as effiminate. The word usage has I believe largely been forgotten among American English language speakers of today, but it was popular back in the 1940's World War II generation. My  humor was partially at your expense and for that I apologize! But it was too funny to pass up, as you inadvertantly made Alma rather more biting and sarcastic than the screen writers intended. Now I would have LOVED IT if Alma had actually said "Jack Nancy" !!!!!!

mucho hugs buddy!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

There is no need to apologize. I accept that she could have said that word! And likely, that actress maybe wanted to do so! But was stopped?

Plus, it could be that Annie also wanted to use that word?

It seems to me that in the TV very popular show series titled Raymond (Everybody Loves Raymond), that such word is used by his father? It is still current, I think at times even in our countries, likely!

The BM movie makes it anti-gay in that way, by similar view by her... stressed way too much, it seems to me! To you too?

Hugs!

[jstephens9]

I love Artiste! he make us look at things from a different perspective......I never would have considered that she said "Jack Nancy", But you know, that is too funny to pass up!

That was funny  Wonder what Ennis would have thought had she really said "Jack Nancy?" It seems that would put a whole new twist on that line 

[brokeplex]

That was funny  Wonder what Ennis would have thought had she really said "Jack Nancy?" It seems that would put a whole new twist on that line 

"a whole new 'twist' on that line"....oh yeah, I love brokie puns!  To answer your question, if Alma had a mind to be as biting and sarcastic as I would have been, it might have set Ennis off in a killing frenzy! So that probably wouldn't have helped the story along much.  Ennis was skating on the edge anyway, and later on he sure picked on a large size rough neck that mopped the pavement with him. And, why weren't the Riverton cops outside that bar ready to give Ennis a ticket for driving that truck that had only one headlight functioning? I guarantee that if I ever drove any vehicle with a tail light, brake light, or headlight missing, the cops would pull me over, that is my luck!

[Artiste]

Thanks jstephens9, and thanks brokeplex!

As I just added on if I prefer the movie or the book and reading your comments here by the two of you, something tells me that the movie is a bit, maybe or not anti-gay, since I have a feeling that it makes also Ennis call Jack in a way: Jack NANCY?? !!

You know how?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks jstephens9, and thanks brokeplex!

As I just added on if I prefer the movie or the book and reading your comments here by the two of you, something tells me that the movie is a bit, maybe or not anti-gay, since I have a feeling that it makes also Ennis call Jack in a way: Jack NANCY?? !!

You know how?

Hugs!

now you really have me confused Artiste! you want to try that post again?

[tampatalon]

Thanks jstephens9, and thanks brokeplex!

As I just added on if I prefer the movie or the book and reading your comments here by the two of you, something tells me that the movie is a bit, maybe or not anti-gay, since I have a feeling that it makes also Ennis call Jack in a way: Jack NANCY?? !!

You know how?

Hugs!

Artiste, BBM Mountain is pro-gay. The straight people who made BBM are courageous and heroes in my eyes.They
took a financial risk to make a movie that helps gay people. There are anti-gay slurs and scenes in BBM to show
how gay people are were treated and had to live.This may help some people understand us.Alma used the word
"Jack Nasty" most likely because at the time she lived perhaps she did not know a better word.Let me give you an
example.My great grandmother called automobiles "machines" because she did not know the word automobile.

TampaTalon^">

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex, and thanks tampatalon!!

brokeplex:

Firstly, I repeat: Ennis in a way did call Jack: NANCY!!

Yes, you can re-read that brokeplex. Are you perplexed about that? I am. I wonder why that was in the movie? Once, you find out, was it also in the book, will be one of my next questions.

...

tampatalon:
I agree with you in some ways for pro-gay, but in more than one, I find the movie anti-gay! If you seek out why Ennis was unhappy when he asks a certain question to Jack, (see the above to brokeplex), then you wonder if that was added to make it negative towards gay men?

...

Awaiting your news about this to be researched, gentlemen,

hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Artiste, BBM Mountain is pro-gay. The straight people who made BBM are courageous and heroes in my eyes.They
took a financial risk to make a movie that helps gay people. There are anti-gay slurs and scenes in BBM to show
how gay people are were treated and had to live.This may help some people understand us.Alma used the word
"Jack Nasty" most likely because at the time she lived perhaps she did not know a better word.Let me give you an
example.My great grandmother called automobiles "machines" because she did not know the word automobile.

TampaTalon^">

Great story about generational changes in speech patterns. My cotton farmer grandfather knew the word for truck, but I still remember him routinely referring to his truck as "that piece of broken down ****" Different generations, he could have bought a new truck, but he was determined to keep that 1950's piece of ****** going until he died.

[jstephens9]

I'm not so sure that Jack would have appreciated Ennis calling him "Jack Nancy" That just would not go along with the movie 

[Artiste]

Thanks jstephens9, and thanks brokeplex!!

Jstephens, if you re-see the movie, you will notice a part where Ennis asks Jack if he plays with other men?
And in a way, Ennis tells him off like calling Jack  Nancy somewhat like that, since Jack went for sex in Mexico!!
This is a hard scene!! ?? Right?? How did Ennis knew of such a place (Mexico for sex)?? Is this also in the book? Or is it only an film mine??
...

Brokeplex, you perplexe me with your comment with your cotton farmer grand-father, but you got me in a way, I think!! The approach of your grand-father is like Ennis who also continues to hope that Jack will be his lover, even in the above and after it!! Ennis cries... falls on his knees and is held by Jack in tenderness!! That is the best scene as a tragedy, which is acceptable to me, like your grand-papa did love his old love (car), instead of finding a new love. At least they hugged then... and more time is given for friendship, instead of a too quick departure!!

...

Both of you are interesting!! I am grateful for your comments and thoughts!! Like a jury trial, we see the evidence of difficult times seeing the movie. Is it anti-gay in some ways?? It remains to be proven as only pro-gay?? Is there a certain kind of disrespect in some ways making it anti-gay?? Or is it all respectful as being pro-gay??
Some questions... remain to be thought about!!


Hugs, hugs!!

[Artiste]

Something real (or unreal) happened to-day at the dentist office.

An old woman was there waiting with her entourage. She was wheeled in with a walker. Since we both waited for the dentist to call either one of us, we talked a lot... unfortunately or fortunately!!  She was very agresive with me and asked me often questions. She noticed my moustache, so she got a joke about that from me... since I said that women have moustaches too, but she said  that they do NOT!! Then... as to my way, she sang two songs.

After she was seen by the dentist and I had too, again we were in the waiting room. There, she dared asked me if I was married!

I felt that she was Ennis's wife! That had she seen the BM movie, that she would be anti-gay after seeing it!

God knows... I do not!!

Hugs!!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Something real (or unreal) happened to-day at the dentist office.

An old woman was there waiting with her entourage. She was wheeled in with a walker. Since we both waited for the dentist to call either one of us, we talked a lot... unfortunately or fortunately!!  She was very agresive with me and asked me often questions. She noticed my moustache, so she got a joke about that from me... since I said that women have moustaches too, but she said  that they do NOT!! Then... as to my way, she sang two songs.

After she was seen by the dentist and I had too, again we were in the waiting room. There, she dared asked me if I was married!

I felt that she was Ennis's wife! That had she seen the BM movie, that she would be anti-gay after seeing it!

God knows... I do not!!

Hugs!!

She probably wanted to find out if you were available for herself Artiste, you should be flattered.

[Artiste]

Thanks Shakestheground!

What you suggest, you do not know that I maybe think or feel that too!

When she found out by me that I was not married nor never was, she did not seem to consider that when I asked a woman that I courted that I wanted seven children, that those women never wanted to see me again!!
Is she anti-gay, as maybe some in the BM movie?

I felt that I was either Ennis or Jack in the movie during and after I spoke with her!

Strange??

Hugs!!

[Artiste]

If it was more gay than not, then there would be MORE gay subjects threads?

Dare I ask?

Hugs!

[elomelo]

Well, Brokeback is pretty much open for interpretation. I wouldn't say it's anti-gay but it isn't quite pro-gay, either. It views the brutal murder in a negative light but isn't quite rooting for the men-living-together, on Ennis's part.

And for the old woman at the dentist's, Artiste -  I doubt she'd see Brokeback Mountain but evidently, she feigns an interest in your maritial status

[brokeplex]

Thanks Shakestheground!

What you suggest, you do not know that I maybe think or feel that too!

When she found out by me that I was not married nor never was, she did not seem to consider that when I asked a woman that I courted that I wanted seven children, that those women never wanted to see me again!!
Is she anti-gay, as maybe some in the BM movie?

I felt that I was either Ennis or Jack in the movie during and after I spoke with her!

Strange??

Hugs!!

Artiste, are you being entrapped into marriage by an elderly dentist? Will she let you decorate your love cottage with your beautiful works of art? If she won't, call the marriage off because that woman has no taste if she isn't inspired by your pictures.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Funny, funny, funny, you are:

Artiste, are you being entrapped into marriage by an elderly dentist? Will she let you decorate your love cottage with your beautiful works of art? If she won't, call the marriage off because that woman has no taste if she isn't inspired by your pictures.   

Elomero and brokeplex: I am laughing, laughing, laughing... like Ennis and Jack would too!! ??

And elomelo, yes elomelo did start to make me laugh with that joke she created! ?

A woman! Wow, I do not know why so  many ladies fall in love with me, especially in art galleries, even married ones! Boy, do I have stories about that!

At least the BM movie does not show Jack in a dress ?? !! Then, I would say that the BM movie would have been 100 per cent ANTI-GAY!!

Elomero, brokeplex... you think? Maybe in BM II, someone will be wearing a dress?

Hugs!

[jstephens9]

Thanks brokeplex!

Funny, funny, funny, you are:

Elomero and brokeplex: I am laughing, laughing, laughing... like Ennis and Jack would too!! ??

And elomelo, yes elomelo did start to make me laugh with that joke she created! ?

A woman! Wow, I do not know why so  many ladies fall in love with me, especially in art galleries, even married ones! Boy, do I have stories about that!

At least the BM movie does not show Jack in a dress ?? !! Then, I would say that the BM movie would have been 100 per cent ANTI-GAY!!

Elomero, brokeplex... you think? Maybe in BM II, someone will be wearing a dress?

Hugs!

I don't think a dress would have been fitting for Jack in the movie  That would have kind of made the movie something else. Although he did have one on in the Saturday Night Live skit. And by the way, I hated the way that was done on SNL....absolutely!!!

[injest]

I don't think a dress would have been fitting for Jack in the movie  That would have kind of made the movie something else. Although he did have one on in the Saturday Night Live skit. And by the way, I hated the way that was done on SNL....absolutely!!!

me too

[Artiste]

What Saturday Night skit? The one that made the news on TV in every country or many countries? In which he thanks gays who helped him, he said ?

Of course, Jake G. in a dress would be creating a different story, if that would have been in the BM movie! So most persons would NOT have accepted that?

Or would it be easier to see Ennis in a dress?

Dare I ask... and expect replies??

...........

Why would that men in dress make it, the BM movie an anti-gay?? Is that so??

Hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Either Jack or Ennis in a dress would make the story absurd. BM is not "TransAmerica", and I agree to being puzzled about the type of juvenile humor that would put Jack or Ennis into a dress. The people who did that, did not understand the story, or they just didn't care and wanted a cheap laugh catering to homophobes who enjoyed demeaning Jack or Ennis by emasculating them.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

You say it would make a BM movie:

absurd.

But Jake G. did wore a dress in a clip that I saw on TV news!! So is he considering the BM absurd by dressing up in a dress?

Since I am now puzzled, I await... your news,

au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

I have no idea about a clip you saw on tv, but am certain that is has no relevance to either the film or the ss.

[Artiste]

In a way no, but in another way, it does, since Jake G. did refer it in some ways to the BM movie!!

You did  NOT see that clip?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

I think that you are reaching here, your option, but I don't think that is relevant.

[Artiste]

I just tried to see that clip again on YOUTUBE, and have not found it yet.

I was surprised to see Jake G. in a dress on TV news, and many TV stations carried that as news.
I seem to remember that he did that clip to thank gays since gays looked at his film (BM movie...), it seems to me.

He did sing in a dress!

I still WONDER why the dress!

Maybe someone will find that clip?

Anyway, he was grateful he said!

.............

Sure, would be nice to hear Jake G.  these days talking about his role in the BM movie, right? Pro and/or anti-gay (if that was so then or now for him)??

[Artiste]

By adding Cassie, then maybe the BM movie is an added anti-gay item?

[Artiste]

In many ways the BM movie is unfortunately anti-gay ?

[jstephens9]

What Artiste is talking about is when Jake Gyllenhaal hosted Saturday Night Live. Or at least I think that is what you are talking about Artiste? He comes out and says something about no Brokeback jokes. There are two gay cowboys in the audience placed there for the skit. Jake than pulls his suit off and is in a dress. He then sings the song from Dreamgirls "And I'm Telling You I'm Not Going." I was not too happy with Jake for doing this since I felt it was in some ways making light of the movie and falling into the whole jokes thing about "gay cowboys" that I have heard so many of. Anyway, I personally did not like it, turned it off, and have no desire to see it although it has been repeated at least three times. Many people found it to be funny. I just don't see anything comical about Brokeback and the whole dress idea was a slap to the movie in my opinion. If anything Brokeback's message was showing another side of the lifestyle besides the stereotypical gay idea of men in dresses, etc.

[Artiste]

Merci jstephens!

Your post is interesting!

I say that on TV News!

If that was it?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[horo04]

Actually Artiste, I really don't see the movie as being anti-gay at all.  Most of the characters inside the movie are but the movie doesn't send that message out in whole.  As a matter of fact is it really a gay movie at all?  I dont think so...its actually a bisexual movie.

[Artiste]

Merci horo!

Are you sending mixed signals? To you, is the BM movie straight, bisexual or gay

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

I still think to-day that the Brokeback Mountain movie is anti-gay, in some ways, unfortunately !

What do you think ? Member and non-members ??

If you are a Guess, you have to become a member to post.

Bienvenue, that's  welcome !

[Artiste]

The more you see Brokeback Mountain movie, the more you see it as anti-gay, maybe ?

[Front-Ranger]

I don't see Brokeback Mountain as anti-gay, in fact, I see it as pro-gay, because both Ennis and Jack, the two gay characters in the movie, are the protagonists and are sympathetic characters. Even though they each have their flaws, by the end of the movie (on first glance, actually, for many of us) we love them and want them to be happy. The movie is a tragedy however, being a realistic portrayal of the challenges gay people face in the backward areas of Texas and Wyoming, then and even now, 50 years later. Just because the movie and story portray the real situation instead of an idealized fantasy doesn't make it anti-gay. I think it would be helpful if you saw another of Ang Lee's movies that is pro-gay The Wedding Banquet. You would like it, Artiste.

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger !


I will re-read your post more than once, and comment later on !!

For now, I just heard Heath talking that he feels like a virgin about the Brokeback Mountain movie, since he normally would not have sought a gay man !  Is that news, as to maybe the BM movie is anti-gay?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Front-Ranger and others:

If Heath had been a gay man, openly a homosexual, wouldn't the Brokeback Mountian movie been more pro-gay ?

What do you think ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[jstephens9]

Front-Ranger and others:

If Heath had been a gay man, openly a homosexual, wouldn't the Brokeback Mountian movie been more pro-gay ?

What do you think ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Heath was portraying a character Ennis. That does not mean he had to be a gay man or homosexual in real life. That is like saying an actor portraying a murderer in a movie has to be one in real life.

[brokeplex]

I don't see Brokeback Mountain as anti-gay, in fact, I see it as pro-gay, because both Ennis and Jack, the two gay characters in the movie, are the protagonists and are sympathetic characters. Even though they each have their flaws, by the end of the movie (on first glance, actually, for many of us) we love them and want them to be happy. The movie is a tragedy however, being a realistic portrayal of the challenges gay people face in the backward areas of Texas and Wyoming, then and even now, 50 years later. Just because the movie and story portray the real situation instead of an idealized fantasy doesn't make it anti-gay. I think it would be helpful if you saw another of Ang Lee's movies that is pro-gay The Wedding Banquet. You would like it, Artiste.

you may disagree with me, but this leads me to the definition of "gay". were Jack and Ennis gay? not necessarily, certainly I believe that AP implied that Jack was killed because of his increasingly open search for homosex, but did either of them consider themselves as gay? probably not.

[Artiste]

That may show that Annie was, by extension, showing that North America is or will be becoming Islamic ! ?

Many considered Ennis a straight, but would refuse to think of him being a homosexual, why ? - Because they want Ennis not being gay so not to have him killed, as musdered because they prefered gays to be murdered ?
It could be, since some even on Bettermost are anti-gay ! And many, many, on the internet about Brokeback Mountain are anti-gay, unfortunately !

And there si much more to be said... ?

Au revoir,
hugs!