Author Topic: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class  (Read 18485 times)

Offline opinionista

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Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« on: May 13, 2007, 07:24:50 pm »
I'm not sure if this was posted before, if so please do not reply and notify me via pm to have the thread deleted.

Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class

CHICAGO - A girl and her grandparents have sued the Chicago Board of Education, alleging that a substitute teacher showed the R-rated film "Brokeback Mountain" in class.

The lawsuit claims that Jessica Turner, 12, suffered psychological distress after viewing the movie in her 8th grade class at Ashburn Community Elementary School last year.

The film, which won three Oscars, depicts two cowboys who conceal their homosexual affair.

Turner and her grandparents, Kenneth and LaVerne Richardson, are seeking around $500,000 in damages.

"It is very important to me that my children not be exposed to this," said Kenneth Richardson, Turner's guardian. "The teacher knew she was not supposed to do this."

According to the lawsuit filed Friday in Cook County Circuit Court, the video was shown without permission from the students' parents and guardians.

The lawsuit also names Ashburn Principal Jewel Diaz and a substitute teacher, referred to as "Ms. Buford."

The substitute asked a student to shut the classroom door at the West Side school, saying: "What happens in Ms. Buford's class stays in Ms. Buford's class," according to the lawsuit.

Richardson said his granddaughter was traumatized by the movie and had to undergo psychological treatment and counseling.

In 2005, Richardson complained to school administrators about reading material that he said included curse words.

"This was the last straw," he said. "I feel the lawsuit was necessary because of the warning I had already given them on the literature they were giving out to children to read. I told them it was against our faith."

Messages left over the weekend with CPS officials were not immediately returned.


I still cannot believe this happens in the 21st century.     :-\  >:(  :'(

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_en_mo/brokeback_lawsuit
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 09:10:45 pm »
I think you will find that America, as the land of freedom and opportunity, is frequently filled with opposites. People are allowed to practice their intolerance here, in fact it is a protected right.
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Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 09:15:31 pm »
A teacher should not be showing  ANY  R rated move to a 12 year old student.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 09:20:19 pm »
A teacher should not be showing  ANY  R rated move to a 12 year old student.

I agree.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 09:23:28 pm »
That's an interesting point. But I also remember when I was in 8th Grade and watching Schindler's List was almost a requirement for passing. Of course, the teacher didn't show us the film in class but strongly encouraged us to see it on our own.
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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 09:27:00 pm »
That's an interesting point. But I also remember when I was in 8th Grade and watching Schindler's List was almost a requirement for passing. Of course, the teacher didn't show us the film in class but strongly encouraged us to see it on our own.

That's a HUGE difference, Daniel. HUGE.

No I would not like for my 12 year old to see BBM...as much as I think it is a great movie...the language and the nudity is just too much for that age.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 09:30:10 pm »
What could that teacher have been thinking?!?!?!  The child is too young to see such things, but I doubt that she was 'scarred' by such things that she needs so much therapy.  I mean, what happened other than the sex that doesn't happen every day in real life?

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 09:32:59 pm »
I do doubt that the girl would be traumatized by anything other than Jacks murder.
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 09:37:56 pm »
I may be missing something, and this is not an attempt of mine to defend the instructor in question, but I seem to remember the age of 12, 13, 14 as being the age when I came into contact with the real world, including an abrasive context with adult themes. Yes, I was upset by them at first, but I was forced rather quickly to accept the reality of what those moments were communicating. Of course, any twelve year old in a public school system will already have a great deal of exposure with adult themes if only from peer conversation, and I for one am grateful that the educators took it upon themselves to help guide some of this exposure in a more directed manner, so that it could add wisdom and relevance to youthful understanding instead of allowing them to remain crass and unrefined as such themes often are in the minds of the early adolescents.

Seriously though, if a thirteen year old can use the "F" word 48 times in a single sentence (granted a run-on sentence), and knows the various correct terminology and uses surrounding the word, I really do not think that any exposure to adult themes in an educational context is going to be bad for him. But that is only my opinion, and I am speaking more from my experience as a youth and student since I do not have the credentials to speak as a parent. I am only trying to inform that twelve-year olds probably know a lot more about the adult world than they let on.
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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 09:48:01 pm »
no, it is not about 'protecting' the youngsters innocence...it is about setting standards. My child knew without a doubt what sex was about. (can't live on a farm and not know that...heck, I got a dog humping on the front porch as I type...) BUT the point is, I have to model the appropriate behaviour for my child at each stage of his life. It is inappropriate for a child of 12 to use 'adult' language or to view nudity in movies, so I wouldn't allow him to watch it.

There is a country song that says "I do these things NOT to change the world....but so the world doesn't change me!" It is not important to me that OTHER people let their kids curse or watch R rated movies...MY child does not.

 ;)

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 09:53:06 pm »
Perhaps I'm reading too much into this (I'm guessing not), but I think the thing the girl was "traumatized" by was the homosexuality.  That whole "against our faith" thing regarding the "literature" they were having the kids read (What was it?  Some Graham Greene stuff?  ;))  is a dead giveaway.

While I agree that a teacher is ill-advised to show any R-rated film to a class of 12-year-olds, I can't help but think that this girl and her family need to get a frigging clue.  I'm sorry, but really.

I think Daniel makes a very valid point re: Schindler's List.  My husband was a Catholic altar boy who, at the age of 10 or 11, was shown graphic documentary footage of the treatment of Jews in concentration camps in his fifth grade classroom.  It fucked him up big-time.  Was the teacher wrong to show it?  That's a tough one.  On the one hand, it did indeed traumatize him enough that he basically became an atheist on the spot.  On the other hand, he still thanks that teacher for showing him the light (or maybe a better term is the darkness).

It'd be one thing if this girl was traumatized by Jack's murder or by the heterosexual sex scenes which are actually quite a bit more explicit, as we all know, than the homosexual ones.  But clearly that's not the issue.

God, I hate what Bush has done to this country.  So to speak.  I also can't help but think that this kind of crap would not fly at all if we had a social liberal in the White House.  Nor should it.  Ever.
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Offline Kerry

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 10:02:42 pm »
A teacher should not be showing  ANY   R rated move to a 12 year old student.

I agree. If Brokeback Mountain can effect an adult's life to the point where it's changed forever (MINE!), imagine what it can do to a child's. I have never before seen a film that has made such an enormous impression on me. I love Brokeback Mountain, which is why I'm here at BetterMost. But I personally don't believe it should be shown to children. Apart from the nudity, swearing and sex scenes, there are other aspects of Brokeback Mountain that are probably not appropriate for children to see; for example, the portrayal of the trauma created by divorce (I wonder why this child is living with her grandparents?). I also believe the depiction of adults incessantly smoking does not set a good example for children. These people may be genuine in their claim or they could, alternatively, be simply trying to opportunistically cash-in on this teacher's mistake. Because that's what I believe it was, a mistake on the part of the teacher. If the teacher was wanting to explain the gay lifestyle to her class (there may have been a child in the class with two mummies, who was maybe being bullied by the other children?), there are certainly more appropriate ways to do so. Here in Australia, for example, there are a series of lovely children's books that explain this issue in children's terms.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:29:17 pm by Kerry »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 10:21:10 pm »
I don't know of any such series of books in this country, Kerry, unfortunately.  As Daniel said, for a land "of the free," we sure are also free to be just as hateful as we want.

But I agree - it was inappropriate for that teacher to show Brokeback to 12-year-olds.  It's an R-rated movie, plain and simple.

The raciest thing I was ever shown in school at about that age was Franco Zefferelli's "Romeo and Juliet."  And I still thank that teacher every day of my life for starting my love affair with Shakespeare.  Robert Warren was his name - a Vietnam vet who lost a leg over there, sort of ironically enough.  I was in the 8th grade.  And I was utterly captivated.  I don't know what the rating was at that time or if there even was a ratings system in place.  While there was certainly no nudity, there were adult themes galore:  unconditional physical love; family ties that make us feel behooved to be somebody we're not; societal intolerance; suicide.  I see Brokeback as a version of that story.

I'm sure that teacher had the best of intentions.  She wanted to show the class a modern-day "Romeo and Juliet" and she probably also wanted to teach them a little something about acceptance and love.  But knowing it was R-rated already put her in muddy waters.  I feel for her, but ultimately I think she was wrong.  I also think it's wrong to sue over something like this.  The school board apparently did not know she was showing the film (given the closed door bit).  The grandparents must be aware of this.  And yet they sue anyway.  They are just trying to make a point, a la Beth Farmer in "Donnie Darko," and like hers, their point is "We don't like to be exposed to anything different from what we believe."  I'm sorry, again, but get the hell over it.
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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 10:28:05 pm »
I don't know of any such series of books in this country, Kerry, unfortunately.  As Daniel said, for a land "of the free," we sure are also free to be just as hateful as we want.

But I agree - it was inappropriate for that teacher to show Brokeback to 12-year-olds.  It's an R-rated movie, plain and simple.

The raciest thing I was ever shown in school at about that age was Franco Zefferelli's "Romeo and Juliet."  And I still thank that teacher every day of my life for starting my love affair with Shakespeare.  Robert Warren was his name - a Vietnam vet who lost a leg over there, sort of ironically enough.  I was in the 8th grade.  And I was utterly captivated.  I don't know what the rating was at that time or if there even was a ratings system in place.  While there was certainly no nudity, there were adult themes galore:  unconditional physical love; family ties that make us feel behooved to be somebody we're not; societal intolerance; suicide.  I see Brokeback as a version of that story.

I'm sure that teacher had the best of intentions.  She wanted to show the class a modern-day "Romeo and Juliet" and she probably also wanted to teach them a little something about acceptance and love.  But knowing it was R-rated already put her in muddy waters.  I feel for her, but ultimately I think she was wrong.  I also think it's wrong to sue over something like this.  The school board apparently did not know she was showing the film (given the closed door bit).  The grandparents must be aware of this.  And yet they sue anyway.  They are just trying to make a point, a la Beth Farmer in "Donnie Darko," and like hers, their point is "We don't like to be exposed to anything different from what we believe."  I'm sorry, again, but get the hell over it.


Oh I agree completely that therapy and a lawsuit is ridiculous!

Making a mountain out of a molehill...and causing more 'harm' to that kid than any movie ever could!

Offline Kerry

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 11:16:25 pm »
I don't know of any such series of books in this country, Kerry, unfortunately. 

The books are written by Vicky Harding and are titled:
* My House
* The Rainbow Cubby House
* Koalas on Parade
* Going to Fair Day

The complete teachers' manual by Vicky Harding, titled "Learning to Include - Teaching & Learning about Diverse Families in a Primary School Setting," is available at:

www.hotkey.net.au/~learn_to_include/pdf/manual.pdf

It is a a PDF file, which means you will need to have Adobe Acrobat on you PC to view it. Adobe Acrobat if free, at their site. 


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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2007, 11:17:28 pm »
But I agree - it was inappropriate for that teacher to show Brokeback to 12-year-olds.  It's an R-rated movie, plain and simple.

The raciest thing I was ever shown in school at about that age was Franco Zefferelli's "Romeo and Juliet."  And I still thank that teacher every day of my life for starting my love affair with Shakespeare.  Robert Warren was his name - a Vietnam vet who lost a leg over there, sort of ironically enough.  I was in the 8th grade.  And I was utterly captivated.  I don't know what the rating was at that time or if there even was a ratings system in place.  While there was certainly no nudity, there were adult themes galore:  unconditional physical love; family ties that make us feel behooved to be somebody we're not; societal intolerance; suicide.  I see Brokeback as a version of that story.

The grandparents must be aware of this.  And yet they sue anyway.  They are just trying to make a point, a la Beth Farmer in "Donnie Darko," and like hers, their point is "We don't like to be exposed to anything different from what we believe."  I'm sorry, again, but get the hell over it.


I can't recall what the rating for Zeferelli's "Romeo & Juliet" was, but it certainly had nudity - topless scene for Olivia Hussey (Julie) and naked butt scene for Leonard Whiting (Romeo).  They must have cut it for your viewing pleasure, but yeah, notice how they left in such 'acceptable' children's themes as murder and suicide.  ::)

Amazon has a "G" rating for it.  Go figure.

Children are very susceptible to influence.  If her grandparents and everyone at her church or neighborhood chimed in with how badly upset the girl must be, then she'll probably go along with everyone and say how upset she is, whether she actually is or not.  If anyone is 'traumatized' I think it must be the grandparents.

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 12:31:05 am »
If Brokeback Mountain can effect an adult's life to the point where it's changed forever (MINE!), imagine what it can do to a child's.

Now that's a very good point Kerry!  I've never been affected so strongly by a film! I would have to agree that it could affect a child just as much as mine, yours and ours!


it was inappropriate for that teacher to show Brokeback to 12-year-olds.  It's an R-rated movie, plain and simple.
I'm sure that teacher had the best of intentions.  She wanted to show the class a modern-day "Romeo and Juliet" and she probably also wanted to teach them a little something about acceptance and love.  But knowing it was R-rated already put her in muddy waters. 

I think at the very least a there should have been a permission slip sent home to parents of the students stating that Brokeback would be shown to their 12 year olds and returned signed by parents.  Granted she was a substitute, but she must have no what she was doing.  she will no doubt loose her job.

As far as the the law suit?  the results remain to be seen.. will seeing Brokeback Mountain affect the child to the point of a life of psycho therapy?  i dont know.. Kids see more dramatic things at home and in the school yard.

The language used in the movie was not abnormal for most 12 year olds ears to have heard, even the Christian children.  The constant smoking is not a highlight of the film and to me was a bit offensive, my opinion only, the sex and nudity should not be shown to children and neither should the graphic violence of Jack being killed or the pot smoking when they shared that joint during the "its gonna snow tonight for sure" scene..   


Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2007, 12:52:58 am »
Hmmm, I guess I just find it strange for the public school system to advocate literature which entails graphic adult sequences (and indeed has no problem doing so) but has immense difficulty with films which demonstrate the same thing visually...

Besides the extraordinary Shakespearean plays, the following books have been required reading for me in middle and high school.

Oedipus Rex Three suicides, self mutilation.
Antigone A number of suicides, mention of rape.
The Sound and the Fury Forbidden sex, contemplation of incest
All the King's Men Filled with adult language, somewhat graphic sex scene
The Iliad Mention and advocacy of homosexual relationship, graphic violence depicted
The Catcher in the Rye I can't remember what all was in this book, but adult language I think is a given.
The Garden of Innocence No, it has nothing to do with innocence.
The Great Gatsby Some depiction of sex, adult language
Metamorphoses Some of the most erotic poetry ever written in the classical age

Without going completely into Shakespeare, but here's a short list.
Julius Caesar Depiction of violence, a number of suicides.
Romeo and Juliet
Hamlet Sexual agression towards women, including one's mother. Violence, a number of suicides.
Twelfth Night Crossdressing, sexual frustration with homoerotic edge.
Macbeth Witchcraft, murder, rather strong language considering when it was written
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 12:58:09 am by Daniel »
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2007, 01:01:24 am »
Interesting Daniel and good points made here.....

Offline opinionista

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2007, 05:40:34 am »
I was shocked about the grandparents's decision to sue the school. I mean, I agree no teacher should show an R movie to a 12 years old. But if this was another movie, not about homosexuality, this case wouldn't have gone to court. They would've settled it at the Principal's office. I think they're overreacting because the movie is gay themed. IMO the whole issue is fueled by homophobia. That's what saddens me.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 05:52:37 am by opinionista »
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline opinionista

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2007, 05:44:13 am »
Ps. And Daniel has a point.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2007, 06:06:03 am »
I remember this debat over in IMDB - should I take my child to see it should I not? And i htink the conclusion was - it depends on your child.

At the end of the day - I saw many an R Rated (or 15 in this country) film before I was that age - 15. But then I was a pretty grown up child.

I think daniel has a valid point here - and I don't see why it shouldn't be shown in school - but perhaps a sign off slip at the beginning of term would be the way forward - ie - your child may be shown the following movies as part of their english class - please let us know if you wish you child to be removed form any of these viewings.


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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2007, 07:34:34 am »
Hmmm, I guess I just find it strange for the public school system to advocate literature which entails graphic adult sequences (and indeed has no problem doing so) but has immense difficulty with films which demonstrate the same thing visually...

Besides the extraordinary Shakespearean plays, the following books have been required reading for me in middle and high school.

Oedipus Rex Three suicides, self mutilation.
Antigone A number of suicides, mention of rape.
The Sound and the Fury Forbidden sex, contemplation of incest
All the King's Men Filled with adult language, somewhat graphic sex scene
The Iliad Mention and advocacy of homosexual relationship, graphic violence depicted
The Catcher in the Rye I can't remember what all was in this book, but adult language I think is a given.
The Garden of Innocence No, it has nothing to do with innocence.
The Great Gatsby Some depiction of sex, adult language
Metamorphoses Some of the most erotic poetry ever written in the classical age

Without going completely into Shakespeare, but here's a short list.
Julius Caesar Depiction of violence, a number of suicides.
Romeo and Juliet
Hamlet Sexual agression towards women, including one's mother. Violence, a number of suicides.
Twelfth Night Crossdressing, sexual frustration with homoerotic edge.
Macbeth Witchcraft, murder, rather strong language considering when it was written

well, for me, the first thing I think is, what you see is much more affecting than what you read. If I write that a man is nude...it creates a much different effect than posting a photograph of him nude. Writing that a person is dead feels much different than showing a corpse.

The concept so many have put forth that "they have already seen all that or heard worse language" is not a valid one to me.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2007, 07:38:10 am »
As I have said earlier, I am not defending the instructor. A permission slip at the least perhaps should have been required, even though I didn't have any permission slips for the required reading I mentioned earlier. It was up to the individual student to say "I have a moral problem with this" in order to be excused from the assignments (or given alternative ones).  I guess the point is that I know I personally gave up children's literature by the time I was 9 or 10 and was reading more familiar literature. I remember The Adventures of Tom Sawyer being a favorite of mine at that age, and look what it has gone through in its history.

But I think I will make one last point that I think it is the job of any education system to prepare youth for dealing with the real world and I would much rather have the education system teach adult themes then have younger people stumble on them later on. And then I pause to consider, why were all those books and plays I mentioned earlier required reading? It is obvious they have a great deal to say about the human condition, about social juxtaposition perhaps, or the inevitability of cause and effect. Shakespeare's works in particular seem to indicate that the personal choices we make are part of a much larger, complex reality of moral decisions and their results. Parents seem to try to indoctrinate their children with the idea of simple moral duality, but when we expand our horizons and really see what is out there, we (hopefully) realize that human life is much more complex. The concept of Moral Complexity is perhaps the most important one that an educational facility can teach, and is an important part of any liberal education.
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2007, 07:52:13 am »
well, for me, the first thing I think is, what you see is much more affecting than what you read. If I write that a man is nude...it creates a much different effect than posting a photograph of him nude. Writing that a person is dead feels much different than showing a corpse.

The concept so many have put forth that "they have already seen all that or heard worse language" is not a valid one to me.

You are quite right about literature being different from a visual display. Children seem to have a canny ability to imagine literary scenes very well, so their imagination fills in the details. Instead of merely registering adult sequences, such literature forces the mental creation of them.  It is because "they have already seen all that or heard worse language" that such imaginations are so effective.  Once again though, this imagination is intellectually and creatively channeled... and perhaps works far better to lead a responsible youth into a mature understanding of adult reality.
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2007, 08:15:00 am »
I agree that children need to be taught that life is complex and there are bad things out there. But we don't expect first graders to do algebra before learning to add, we teach in stages. First they learn the black and white, then you can begin to fill in the grey areas.

And there will ALWAYS be kids that are behind their agemates and some that are ahead; you can't cover them all in one class. You fed your needs outside of the curriculum and it seems to have been ok.


Offline Daniel

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2007, 08:37:42 am »
I suppose what we are disagreeing on is the age at which the demonstrations of adult reality become acceptable in an educational context. I would say that as soon as children are exposed to adult reality by peer conversation the topics need to be covered extensively in a comfortable, educational setting. I really do believe in an intellectual channeling of more crass and conflicted considerations of any number of themes from sexuality to drug use.  I think this is one reason why the DARE program and Lion's Club seemed to work so well when they were used in the public education system, and if I remember correctly, it was at this age when we were first introduced into the programs.
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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2007, 08:42:29 am »
yes, the age and the depth of the immersion. At that age beginning to talk about more serious, complicated issues is acceptable but BBM is far too complex and graphic for a beginning.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2007, 08:54:50 am »
Hmmm, I guess I just find it strange for the public school system to advocate literature which entails graphic adult sequences (and indeed has no problem doing so) but has immense difficulty with films which demonstrate the same thing visually...

Besides the extraordinary Shakespearean plays, the following books have been required reading for me in middle and high school.

Oedipus Rex Three suicides, self mutilation.
Antigone A number of suicides, mention of rape.
The Sound and the Fury Forbidden sex, contemplation of incest
All the King's Men Filled with adult language, somewhat graphic sex scene
The Iliad Mention and advocacy of homosexual relationship, graphic violence depicted
The Catcher in the Rye I can't remember what all was in this book, but adult language I think is a given.
The Garden of Innocence No, it has nothing to do with innocence.
The Great Gatsby Some depiction of sex, adult language
Metamorphoses Some of the most erotic poetry ever written in the classical age

Without going completely into Shakespeare, but here's a short list.
Julius Caesar Depiction of violence, a number of suicides.
Romeo and Juliet
Hamlet Sexual agression towards women, including one's mother. Violence, a number of suicides.
Twelfth Night Crossdressing, sexual frustration with homoerotic edge.
Macbeth Witchcraft, murder, rather strong language considering when it was written

Daniel and Jess both make excellent points.  I agree it seems contradictory to ask your child to read such stories even the Bible when it contains such explicit material yet rant and rave over rated R movies, but just as Jess says, seeing it is more impacting than reading it, but shouldn't that be an important point?  Perhaps if children saw what violence can do to someone, it would make make such violence and hate less a boring read and/or a glorified abstract and more a hard reality (beginning of "Saving Private Ryan" than say any old Schrwarzenegger macho military flick).  Just as an aside, maybe it depends on your public school?  None of these were required reading for my english classes until high school (after age 15).
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 08:03:13 pm by delalluvia »

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2007, 09:28:47 am »
I was shocked about the grandparents's decision to sue the school. I mean, I agree no teacher should show an R movie to a 12 years old. But if this was another movie, not about homosexuality, this case wouldn't have gone to court. They would've settled it at the Principal's office. I think they're overreacting because the movie is gay themed. IMO the whole issue is fueled by homophobia. That's what saddens me.

Well-said, Natali.  I agree completely.  This is precisely why it saddens me (greatly), too.

And Daniel makes an excellent point.  Here's the thing - by the time I was 12, I had seen (and been subjected to) some things that would make most people's toenails curl.  I'm sure many of us here have, unfortunately.  Zefferelli's R&J was in many ways tame to me by comparison.  Brokeback would have been the same.  And I think it would have given me a deeper understanding of what it's like to be a gay man in many parts of our society at an earlier age.  But I was a pretty introspective kid and mature beyond my years just by necessity.

This girl is not "traumatized" by the violence in the movie.  She's traumatized by the homosexuality/sexuality in general.  If that's really true, she's been living a far too sheltered life and will have a lot of difficulty functioning in society with or without having seen this movie at a young age.  That said, the teacher was out of line.  I still feel for her because I think she meant well.  No, I'm sure she did.  But it's one of those "know your audience" things.  You can think you're enlightening these kids from here to Tuesday.  But anyone who's not capable of hearing the message of this movie is not going to appreciate it in the least little bit - be they 12 or 52.

I swear if an 8th grade teacher showed Zefferelli's R&J today in certain parts of this country, guaranteed there'd be someone publicly bitching about it.  But I doubt they'd sue.  And if they did, as Natali said, it certainly wouldn't make it to court.  This is homophobia and this is the Bush administration.  He has taken us so far backwards, it will take several terms of liberal rule to repair the damage.  And with the Supreme Court stacked Conservative, it may take more than that.  I worry that 2008 isn't going to fix it, either.  We'll end up with McCain who isn't much more reasonable than Bush.  And we'll be at war for freaking ever.  Abroad and amongst ourselves.
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2007, 11:20:04 am »
I just read this article:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271935,00.html

now granted this Fox news, so there is a conservative bias going on. I think 12 is too early to see Brokeback, if they were 15 it would be more acceptable but still if you are going to show R rated material permission should be given. It is interesting to read in this article that the substitute teacher is alledged to have said: "What happens in Ms. Buford's class stays in Ms. Buford's class". (a take off on the plug for Las Vegas) It seems to me like they are trying to tie the showing to a general decline in morals in the U.S. If this statement is true it represents an agenda I cannot endorse.

I think the student may need counselling for a variety of reasons, including how her guardians relate to the larger society. I would also love to find out how this class of students turns out over the years.

I can relate to Edenbarby's husbands reaction. When I was 8 my sister took me to see Nicholas and Alexandra, and of course they were all brutally murdered at then end. The murder of Rasputin was hardly a blip on the radar, but the murders of the Romanovs really left me fearful.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2007, 11:28:46 am »
I agree totally with you, Shakes - this girl needs counseling not because she saw a sexually explicit movie but because her guardians are a couple of intolerant, insensitive, ignorant nimrods.  They are inflicting way more damage than any movie ever could.

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Offline Mikaela

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2007, 01:13:58 pm »

While I agree that a teacher is ill-advised to show any R-rated film to a class of 12-year-olds, I can't help but think that this girl and her family need to get a frigging clue.

I'm quoting this as one of a number of posts along the same lines, and musing a bit. Are Scandinavian kids that different from Americans? Are they tougher? I think not. If anything, I think many US kids have seen quite a lot more of graphic violence depicted on screen, for instance, and are far more used to guns around the house in RL, and so in some ways at least have become desensitized to what kids (and parents) over here would probably react quite strongly to. On the other hand, any allusion to or depiction (however relevant to the story) related to nudity or sex, and in particular gay sex, is obviously a huge no-no in the US. But if not for that cultural trait which originates with grown-ups like the grandparents of the alledged traumatized 12-year old, I bet 12-year olds on both sides of the Atlantic could handle the scenes and themes of BBM just fine.

Here, Brokeback had a rating in the cinemas allowing kids down to 11 years old to watch it alone, and down to 7 year-olds could see it if accompagnied by an adult. The rating was explained by the rating board as being due to the violence that the film contains, while the sexuality (as not seen as exploitative or gratuituous) played no part in the rating comments. So I doubt that schools could get in any sort of formal legal trouble for showing the film to 12-year olds, in a group and with a teacher present. At that age the kids have had their first education on sexuality too. Then again, I agree a school might nevertheless be seen as somewhat ill-advised in showing BBM simply because the film IMO requires a more mature mind and more life experience than that of many a 12-year old in order to comprehend the story and characters.

Oh, there are may things over here that annoy the heck out of me, and things of which I'm not very proud. But when it comes to movie ratings and what kind of scenes we deem hurtful to kids and youths I think we're getting it right. BBM had an 11-year age limit for viewing.... while Mel Gibson's latest Mayan graphic violence orgy got our equivalent of a NC-17 rating; you had to be 18 or older to get to watch it in the cinema. I'm still delighted about that.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 01:22:13 pm by Mikaela »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2007, 02:21:09 pm »
I invited both of my sons, ages 11 and 12, to watch BBM with me. I would have fast-forwarded through the sex scenes (all of them). No sense making it the experience unnecessarily jarring. But my sons are perceptive movie-viewers, and I would have liked them to absorb the message -- and to base their attitudes toward the movie on the movie itself rather than on all the jokes, etc., they've heard elsewhere. Both declined the offer, which tells me that the jokes have already had their damaging effect.

But a teacher showing it to a class is just being silly. Obviously there are going to be parents up in arms. The lawsuit and claim that the girl was traumatized are ridiculous, but how dense do you have to be to not realize that showing an R-rated movie of any sort to 12-year-olds is going to upset some parents? Throw in homosexuality and, fair or not, some parents are going to be even more outraged. By giving homophobes a reasonable basis for complaint and presenting a valuable lesson in an inappropriate context, the teacher did more harm than good.

Not only that, but how many 12-year-olds are even going to fully understand the message, anyway? A glance over at imdb will quickly demonstrate that plenty of adults don't get the movie, whose attitudes are just as obnoxious after they see it. BBM is not guaranteed to enlighten everybody.

It would make much more sense to find other ways to teach the same lesson. A teacher who used books, non-R-rated movies, or in-class discussions to promote healthy attitudes toward homosexuality might still generate rage among homophobic parents. But then the approach would be defensible, and the homophobia would stand out for the prejudice it is.


Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2007, 02:45:26 pm »


God, I hate what Bush has done to this country.  So to speak.  I also can't help but think that this kind of crap would not fly at all if we had a social liberal in the White House.  Nor should it.  Ever.

the movie ratings guides have been in place for decades; Bush had nothing to do with them. Gore's wife was the highest "ranking" poliitico to attempt sensorship of lyrics and images in songs/movies; remember?

Once again, anything even slightly conservative wherever it occurs is "Bush's fault". To claim that R rated movies (in particular BBM) would be heralded for classrooms of 12 year olds and the opposition to such (as it being shown as noted HERE on this thread) would NOT be in play had Kerry won the election is such a missunderstanding of the public and parents it boggles my mind.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2007, 03:23:32 pm »
I'm quoting this as one of a number of posts along the same lines, and musing a bit. Are Scandinavian kids that different from Americans? Are they tougher? I think not. If anything, I think many US kids have seen quite a lot more of graphic violence depicted on screen, for instance, and are far more used to guns around the house in RL, and so in some ways at least have become desensitized to what kids (and parents) over here would probably react quite strongly to. On the other hand, any allusion to or depiction (however relevant to the story) related to nudity or sex, and in particular gay sex, is obviously a huge no-no in the US. But if not for that cultural trait which originates with grown-ups like the grandparents of the alledged traumatized 12-year old, I bet 12-year olds on both sides of the Atlantic could handle the scenes and themes of BBM just fine.

Here, Brokeback had a rating in the cinemas allowing kids down to 11 years old to watch it alone, and down to 7 year-olds could see it if accompagnied by an adult. The rating was explained by the rating board as being due to the violence that the film contains, while the sexuality (as not seen as exploitative or gratuituous) played no part in the rating comments. So I doubt that schools could get in any sort of formal legal trouble for showing the film to 12-year olds, in a group and with a teacher present. At that age the kids have had their first education on sexuality too. Then again, I agree a school might nevertheless be seen as somewhat ill-advised in showing BBM simply because the film IMO requires a more mature mind and more life experience than that of many a 12-year old in order to comprehend the story and characters.

Oh, there are may things over here that annoy the heck out of me, and things of which I'm not very proud. But when it comes to movie ratings and what kind of scenes we deem hurtful to kids and youths I think we're getting it right. BBM had an 11-year age limit for viewing.... while Mel Gibson's latest Mayan graphic violence orgy got our equivalent of a NC-17 rating; you had to be 18 or older to get to watch it in the cinema. I'm still delighted about that.  ;D

Aww, Mikaela, so good to read your post. As you probably already know, I couldn't agree more. I read this thread earlier today and my fingertips began to itch to write a reply; but I wanted to wait until I've a bit time to write an halfways eloquent reply. And now I come back (kids in bed  ;D) - and you have already done all the work, so thank you.

For consideration; BBM ratings in different European countries:
Netherlands: 12; Sweden: 7; Spain: 13; Germany: 12; Finland K-11; Iceland: 12 (for the record: there are European countries which had a more restrict rating than these).

I really have a hard time to understand why nudity and sex are such a big deal (as long as there's no violence involved in the sex scenes, that is). I wouldn't have a problem to let my 11 year old see BBM if she wanted, including the sex scenes.


Of course it is downright silly of the teacher to show any R rated movie and Katherine has a great point, too:
Quote
It would make much more sense to find other ways to teach the same lesson. A teacher who used books, non-R-rated movies, or in-class discussions to promote healthy attitudes toward homosexuality might still generate rage among homophobic parents. But then the approach would be defensible, and the homophobia would stand out for the prejudice it is.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2007, 03:39:11 pm »
the movie ratings guides have been in place for decades; Bush had nothing to do with them. Gore's wife was the highest "ranking" poliitico to attempt sensorship of lyrics and images in songs/movies; remember?

Once again, anything even slightly conservative wherever it occurs is "Bush's fault". To claim that R rated movies (in particular BBM) would be heralded for classrooms of 12 year olds and the opposition to such (as it being shown as noted HERE on this thread) would NOT be in play had Kerry won the election is such a missunderstanding of the public and parents it boggles my mind.

I'm not saying it'd be rated any differently.  I'm just saying that I think we're more uptight about sexual situations in films now than we were during the Clinton era.

Tipper wasn't uptight about the sex in movies, per ce.  She was uptight about the violence.  And she was uptight about the violence and cursing moreso in music videos, on CDs, and in video games than she was about it in movies as I recall.

Mikaela had an excellent point.  The U.S. in general is way more uptight about sex in general than are our European counterparts.  And yet we have the highest gun violence rate of any industrialized country.  And that's per capita, so please don't throw the population bit into it.  Perhaps we should be more uptight about the violence and less uptight about the sex.

If my son were 11 or 12, I'd let him watch Brokeback - in its entirety - if I felt he were mature enough to fully understand it.  If he came home and said his teacher showed them "Kill Bill, Vol. 1" I'd be rather pissed.  (I wonder if the guardians of this girl would be equally pissed.  I guess we can never know.)  If he said she'd shown them "Shakespeare in Love," which also has an R-rating, I would not be, even if he said the sex in it "traumatized" him.  We'd just talk about why that was and go from there.  It's all relative, I guess.

And please keep your opinions about how mind-boggling mine are to yourself.  Disagree with them all you want, but getting petty about my understanding or lack thereof about "the public and parents" (both of which I consider myself a member) is really unnecessary.  Please don't put words in my mouth just because my opinion differs from yours, too.  I never said R-rated films would be "heralded" if Kerry were President.  I just questioned whether this case would make it to court if he were.  Disagree with that, again, but don't say I said something I did not.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 03:44:18 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2007, 04:02:27 pm »
I really have a hard time to understand why nudity and sex are such a big deal (as long as there's no violence involved in the sex scenes, that is). I wouldn't have a problem to let my 11 year old see BBM if she wanted, including the sex scenes.

Well, whatever causes those cultural differences, they go back a long way. Everyone here involved in the situation -- the students, their parents, the teacher -- is a product of a cultural in which pre-adolescent kids are not supposed to be shown explicit sex or nudity. The idea, as I understand it, is not so much that sex is bad or wrong, but to preserve childlike innocence (to the extent that it exists) for as long as possible. Children, even if they are knowledgable about sex, are aware of the taboos. So for a teacher to suddenly expose them to it is jarring above and beyond the specifics of sexual orientation.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with some of the sexuality that my kids see on ordinary TV. Not so much because I don't want them to know there is such a thing (too late for that!  :laugh:), but because I don't like the attitude that often accompanies sexual references: often sexist, or coarse, or exploitative, or cheap and casual. Parents are  held accountable (unfairly, IMO) for censoring the cultural products their kids consume. Eventually, you realize that's nearly impossible -- or at least causes more intrafamilial stress than it's worth. You can't shelter kids forever from the culture they live in. But until then, there's tremendous pressure to engage in the struggle.

In the case of BBM, there are other things that would also upset some parents: swearing, smoking, violence, drug use. Personally, I don't have a problem with those -- at least not in the context of BBM -- but I know some parents would.

So while there would probably be parents who would object to any positive depiction of homosexuality in a movie shown to their children, all this other stuff clouds the issue and causes open-minded parents who might otherwise be on the teacher's side to question the sanity of the decision, too.

On the issue of Bush and Kerry, I partly agree with Barb. In past decades, people have been more open-minded (I'd probably go all the way back to the Carter years as a counter-example, though). However, I don't think it's Bush's influence that made Americans narrow-minded. I think it's narrow-minded Americans who elected Bush. In other words, I'd put the chicken and egg in a different order.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2007, 04:36:38 pm »
I'm not saying it'd be rated any differently.  I'm just saying that I think we're more uptight about sexual situations in films now than we were during the Clinton era.

Tipper wasn't uptight about the sex in movies, per ce.  She was uptight about the violence.  And she was uptight about the violence and cursing moreso in music videos, on CDs, and in video games than she was about it in movies as I recall.

Mikaela had an excellent point.  The U.S. in general is way more uptight about sex in general than are our European counterparts.  And yet we have the highest gun violence rate of any industrialized country.  And that's per capita, so please don't throw the population bit into it.  Perhaps we should be more uptight about the violence and less uptight about the sex.

If my son were 11 or 12, I'd let him watch Brokeback - in its entirety - if I felt he were mature enough to fully understand it.  If he came home and said his teacher showed them "Kill Bill, Vol. 1" I'd be rather pissed.  (I wonder if the guardians of this girl would be equally pissed.  I guess we can never know.)  If he said she'd shown them "Shakespeare in Love," which also has an R-rating, I would not be, even if he said the sex in it "traumatized" him.  We'd just talk about why that was and go from there.  It's all relative, I guess.

And please keep your opinions about how mind-boggling mine are to yourself.  Disagree with them all you want, but getting petty about my understanding or lack thereof about "the public and parents" (both of which I consider myself a member) is really unnecessary.  Please don't put words in my mouth just because my opinion differs from yours, too.  I never said R-rated films would be "heralded" if Kerry were President.  I just questioned whether this case would make it to court if he were.  Disagree with that, again, but don't say I said something I did not.

Actually, I was only responding to your direct quote...that "God, I hate what Bush has done to this country.  So to speak.  I also can't help but think that this kind of crap would not fly at all if we had a social liberal in the White House." If that does not mean without Bush as president (and if he wasn't president it would be Kerry) this case would have no standing, then I do not know what you mean. I read your words literally; if your meaning was otherwise, how are we to know? If you really believe that in a Kerry (or clinton) presidency such filings would be less, it is counter to what has been actually occuring since the early 90s with filings. To suggest that any president could cause the current public attitude (spawned largely by trial lawyers) to be less litigious is not based on the facts we see. In fact, Bush is the one who has tried to reduce the knee-jerk reaction to seek legal remedies to issues such as this, but his tort reform is being fought by the democrats.

Again, just responding to the words used, and it seems fair and reasonable to question your belief that social attitudes would be so different (in such as short time) if Kerry was pres.

Also, I think your point about your hypothetical boys aged 11 or 12 seeing the film "...if I felt he were mature enough to fully understand it..." is THE point being made here by some that you seem to disagree with. 'Fully understanding' the film is something this forum continues on toward year 2 in doing. Most kids aged 11 and 12 do not have the maturity; that is why the rating system exists. If yours would, fine, you or anyone else is totally able to show the film at home or take them to the theatre. But, in a controlled, forced situation like a classroom where parents/guardians have not been informed, the law says R films ought not be shown.

How would anyone know if all the kids in any class are "mature enough to fully understand it" if that is your criteria for showing? I think the answer is...no one would know. So, showing the film seems to have been a mistake.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 04:42:25 pm by HerrKaiser »

Scott6373

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2007, 04:47:08 pm »
This debate is the perfect example of just how far the common sense meter has dipped.

There really are NO circumstances under which a 13 year old child should be made to watch a film like Brokeback Mountain without the express permission of the parent(s).

There is NO argument that can be made for a teacher who takes it upon him/herself to inject such topics into a curriculum without the express permission of the school administration.

I would think common sense would dictate this, but then again, I could be wrong, as common sense seems not be as highly valued these days as one's self-given gift of entitlement and the right to say and do whatever one wishes, simply because we want to say and do it.

Somewhere in our earnest search for human fulfillment, we have become a nation of greedy, grabbing, self-involved people, who are raising a generation of children that espouse those values.

Don't even get me started on common courtesy.

Offline Mikaela

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2007, 05:05:13 pm »
Thanks Chrissi. As usual you''re so kind.  :)

Everyone here involved in the situation -- the students, their parents, the teacher -- is a product of a cultural in which pre-adolescent kids are not supposed to be shown explicit sex or nudity.

And also, the product of a culture where everyone seems to be suing everyone else for big sums of money on every possible (and impossible) pretext. The teacher in question must have known about *that* risk, just as much as she should have realized it was poor judgement to show this film rated R (even if she disagreed with the rating) to 12-year olds in the US. (But when she chose to do something like that, at least she chose to show a film that could do the kids no harm and might open their eyes to a broader perspective than some of them are evidently getting at home... Imagine what she might have shown them!) Still, there was more than one cultural trait that should have warned her off.

So based on that and the news story I'm  a bit curious and not totally certain as to why the teacher did it. Deliberate provocation in order to achieve discussion among the kids and between kids and parents and bring new insights? Promote tolerance? Wanted to just shock and thrill and become popular with the kids by showing something "risqué" and otherwise off-limits? Wanted her 15 minutes of newsworthy fame? Plain stupid and without ability to consider consequences of her actions - i.e. lacking the common sense that Scott mentions?  ???

Not that her reasons have any bearing on the reactions of the people whose 12-year old needed "psychological treatment and counseling".  :-\ For some reason I totally imagine this counseling to be along the lines of the kind that Ted Haggard used to offer not too long ago.  ::) Poor kid.


Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2007, 05:50:51 pm »
both postings by Scott and Mikaela above make great sense to me.

In answer to Mikaela's question of "why?" would a teacher do this.... I think this is one small event among thousands that happen every day in public schools where teachers present classroom material of which parents are unaware and about which many would object. Teachers do it because they actually do have a fairly broad scope of authority on teaching materials, and many teachers also have a personal desire to implant their personal ideas on their classes. Most of the time, parents (and the kids) roll their eyes and just let things go that ought not to have been in class; obviously others make a point by taking legal action. My guess is that the teacher in this case was not 'testing the water' to see if any parent would take issue; rather, she wanted to be avante gard in her own mind and viewed that way by her colleagues.

Offline Fran

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2007, 06:15:36 pm »
both postings by Scott and Mikaela above make great sense to me.

My guess is that the teacher in this case was not 'testing the water' to see if any parent would take issue; rather, she wanted to be avante gard in her own mind and viewed that way by her colleagues.

I believe it was a substitute teacher.  She probably didn't know the kids or the parents.  The sub probably didn't feel like teaching and took the easy way out:  a movie.

The newspaper articles are saying this was a class of 8th graders -- kids in 8th grade are mostly 14 or close to it by the time the school year ends.  The 12-year-old must have been double-promoted somewhere along the way, or else the reporters got the grade wrong.

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2007, 06:20:46 pm »
It's interesting that the movie is back in the news after all this time, but unfortunate that is in such a context as this. For such a beautiful, life-affirming work of art, a lot of negativity has accrued around this creation: the humiliating loss at the 2006 Oscars, Annie's embarrassing article attacking the Academy (sorry, Annie, I love ya, but that was not your proudest moment), Randy Quaid's lawsuit, and now this.

My own two cents': The substitute teacher should definitely have sought parental and administrative permission before showing any R-rated movie to students. She showed a considerable amount of contempt for the potential feelings of lots of people by ignoring this procedure (I'm wondering if her sub status gave her more chutzpah for such an action). At the same time, I think the girl's family is overreacting by their absurdly litigious claim, and their attitude does seem tinged with homophobia (and homophobes do not deserve any coddling anymore).

Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2007, 07:28:49 pm »
Actually, I was only responding to your direct quote...that "God, I hate what Bush has done to this country.  So to speak.  I also can't help but think that this kind of crap would not fly at all if we had a social liberal in the White House." If that does not mean without Bush as president (and if he wasn't president it would be Kerry) this case would have no standing, then I do not know what you mean. I read your words literally; if your meaning was otherwise, how are we to know?

Again, just responding to the words used, and it seems fair and reasonable to question your belief that social attitudes would be so different (in such as short time) if Kerry was pres.

Interesting that you have taken my words so literally, and yet you have neglected to directly quote me when I said not once but twice that the teacher should not have shown an R-rated film to her students.

I'm not defending the teacher.  What she did was wrong.  But I also think our society is in a sad state when it seems acceptable to many that this girl's guardians are actually *suing* the school board over it.  The same guardians who also had a problem with some of the reading material the school was teaching.  This was a substitute teacher who did not inform the school or the kids' parents she was showing the film.  She was wrong on a number of levels.  I don't think the school board should be held accountable for her actions.  It would be entirely acceptable to me if I were the parent and a substitute teacher taking it upon herself to show 12-14 year olds an R-rated movie upset me and my child to see that she got fired and never hired to teach there again.  But to sue them?  That's just insane.  And you're right - the number of such frivilous lawsuits in such cases probably hasn't increased since Bush took office.  But I think that the current climate in this country that he has largely instigated empowers these kind of right-wing nut jobs to spout their closed-minded little views citing that it is "against their faith."

It's true:  I hate what I think George W. Bush has done to my country with his fear- and war-mongering and his pandering to the Christian Right.  You don't agree.  That's fine.  But please allow me the levity to criticize the man just as I have allowed Conservatives the levity to criticize Clinton for 8-plus years, now.  It's only fair.  And it's still a free country.  At least last I checked - I haven't read the papers today.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 08:22:52 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline Kd5000

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2007, 07:50:03 pm »
I like how money is attached as comfort to the traumatized youth. Half a million can buy alot of psychological  therapy. What are they going to do with the money. Are the parents wanting to put it aside for college savings. Can I sue my school because we had to watch DELIVERANCE in 9th grade. Male rape, things of that nature was involved.  Like it was just a movie.  Still not as boring :( as BLESS THE BEAST AND THE CHILDREN which we watched latter in the schol year.   

Greed and moral hysteria seem to be making the legal system somewhat of a joke.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2007, 08:13:02 pm »
I like how money is attached as comfort to the traumatized youth. Half a million can buy alot of psychological  therapy. What are they going to do with the money. Are the parents wanting to put it aside for college savings. Can I sue my school because we had to watch DELIVERANCE in 9th grade. Male rape, things of that nature was involved.  Like it was just a movie.  Still not as boring :( as BLESS THE BEAST AND THE CHILDREN which we watched latter in the schol year.   

Greed and moral hysteria seem to be making the legal system somewhat of a joke.


Yes, and welcome to the so-called American justice system which is not about justice, but legalites. The real damages in most cases are small dollars; the big numbers come from 'pain and suffering' etc and from hot coffee on one's lap to fear of sex afer falling of a cable car, lawyers will sue for anything anytime to get insurance money...and schools have deep pocketed insurance policies. I guarantee that if the movie were seen by the same girl at the local bingo club, no such lawsuit would be filed.

Sadly, whether its viewed as right wing or left wing radicals, everyone has jumped in the bandwagon of suing for pain and suffering damages. President Bush no more created the litigious society we have than he created global warming. In fact, the vast majority of trial lawyers are registered democrats.

I believe the stat last year was that the dollars won and gained via settlement in lawsuits was over 20% of the GNP. First, Americans worked for their money; then divorced for it, now they sue for it. And it seems to be getting worse.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 08:18:19 pm by HerrKaiser »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2007, 11:30:27 pm »
BTW, there are currently at least four very active threads buzzing away at imdb over this one issue. The funny thing is, almost everybody, there and here, agrees on two basic principles:

-- The teacher showed bad judgement.

-- The parents are overreacting.

(Well, OK, not everybody at imdb agrees on the latter.  :laugh: But most reasonable people do.)

The differences center mainly around which of the two principles people choose to emphasize in their posts. Was the teacher really wrong, or are the parents really wrong? But the thing is, both ideas are right -- that is, both teacher and parents are wrong! And the two ideas can peacefully coexist!

Not only that, but both of the above ideas can coexist with the notion that children should learn (at school, at home, on the streetcorner, on late-night talk shows) not to be homophobic. Showing BBM to a class of unprepared 13-year-olds is obviously not the best way to accomplish this. But as long as there are parents who feel they're owed $500,000 because their daugher WAS required to watch it and was traumatized by it, there's obviously still a lot of work to be done.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2007, 12:09:35 am »
BTW, there are currently at least four very active threads buzzing away at imdb over this one issue.

Update: Make that SIX very active threads at imdb.

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2007, 11:06:47 am »
The suit claims Jessica continues to suffer from emotional distress caused by watching the film and is currently undergoing psychological treatment and counseling.
Hello?! Twenty-first Century - anyone home??!

For that money they should all move to Europe!

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2007, 11:15:20 am »
*Damn,* we're uptight here.

 ::)   :'(
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2007, 11:43:58 am »
I guess this is what you get when you combine our Puritan ancestry with our penchant for victimhood and our litigiousness.  :-\
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Offline notBastet

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2007, 09:23:56 pm »
A teacher should not be showing  ANY  R rated move to a 12 year old student.

That was kind of my feeling.  I know my mama woulda flipped - just cause it was R, not because of the content per se (Dirty Dancing came out when I was like 10 - had to watch it with adult supervision and various scenes "fast-forwarded"...)

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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2007, 09:26:52 pm »
Hello?! Twenty-first Century - anyone home??!

For that money they should all move to Europe!

Brokeback Mountain Certification: Netherlands:12 / Sweden:7 / Spain:13 / Finland:K-11 / France:U / Portugal:M-12 / Norway:11 / Germany:12 / Belgium:KT / Iceland:12

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Sadly JUde this doesn't impress my arch conservative religious friends.  They merely tilt their noses up and sniff and say, "You want to be immoral like the Europeans?  They have legalized prostitution too!"

Offline notBastet

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2007, 09:29:32 pm »
I was shocked about the grandparents's decision to sue the school. I mean, I agree no teacher should show an R movie to a 12 years old. But if this was another movie, not about homosexuality, this case wouldn't have gone to court. They would've settled it at the Principal's office. I think they're overreacting because the movie is gay themed. IMO the whole issue is fueled by homophobia. That's what saddens me.

agree with you too, nat. 
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injest

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2007, 12:48:59 am »
This is a TAD off topic but I thought it made a nice contrast. I hope this judge gets the BBM case!  :laugh:

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20070515/46493040_3ca6_1552620070515131630423

This girl sued because she got in trouble for using the term 'that is so gay'. the judge said that her parents caused the harm by throwing such a fit!

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Offline tamarack

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2007, 05:51:00 am »
I skimmed the previous posts and I don't think that anyone has mentioned this, and before I do I want to go on record as saying that I believe that both the teacher and the parents are wrong, and yes, I think her parents are milking it, but I'm just offering another opinion.

Does it state anywhere that the gay angle is what "traumatized" this child or is that just what is being assumed? Is that what we are supposed to assume?

Re-playing the movie in my mind to try to figure out what would be so "traumatic" I think that, given the right circumstances, Ennis and Alma in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner would be right up there. I've been in a relationship in which I was hit, but, being a tall person I had never seen a man's fist from the low angle that I saw Ennis' fist in the movie, and the first time I saw it, it looked huge to me and it really was something that I did a lot of thinking about. After seeing the movie over and over I realized that the angle wasn't even the way I had experienced it in the beginning, but because I had experienced that in real life it made a big impression on me. I think that there's as much, if not more, likelihood that that scene could have bothered this girl, especially if she had experienced something similar in her own home.

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2007, 07:49:19 am »
Sadly JUde this doesn't impress my arch conservative religious friends.  They merely tilt their noses up and sniff and say, "You want to be immoral like the Europeans?  They have legalized prostitution too!"
Yes, Del. I doubt it would impress some people..  :-\

I don't mind being 'immoral' in this case.  ;)

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2007, 12:43:44 pm »
I skimmed the previous posts and I don't think that anyone has mentioned this, and before I do I want to go on record as saying that I believe that both the teacher and the parents are wrong, and yes, I think her parents are milking it, but I'm just offering another opinion.

Does it state anywhere that the gay angle is what "traumatized" this child or is that just what is being assumed? Is that what we are supposed to assume?

Re-playing the movie in my mind to try to figure out what would be so "traumatic" I think that, given the right circumstances, Ennis and Alma in the kitchen after Thanksgiving dinner would be right up there. I've been in a relationship in which I was hit, but, being a tall person I had never seen a man's fist from the low angle that I saw Ennis' fist in the movie, and the first time I saw it, it looked huge to me and it really was something that I did a lot of thinking about. After seeing the movie over and over I realized that the angle wasn't even the way I had experienced it in the beginning, but because I had experienced that in real life it made a big impression on me. I think that there's as much, if not more, likelihood that that scene could have bothered this girl, especially if she had experienced something similar in her own home.

That's a good point.  But what disturbs me is that in no way has anyone reporting on this gone out of their way (or reported on anyone going out of their way) to say it *wasn't* the homosexuality aspect of it that was what traumatized her.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I think it's a case of guilt by omission.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2007, 01:02:15 pm »
I think they are deliberately avoiding specifying what traumatized her for several strategic reasons. 1) By not mentioning homosexuality, they can't be criticized as being homophobic. 2) They can get support from others who might not be homophobic but who object to the general contents of the movie (violence, sex scenes, nudity, swearing, drug use, domestic abuse, etc.). 3) But they STILL get support from the homophobes who assume that homosexuality IS what they're tacitly talking about. 3) They can imply, or even outright argue, that the girl was traumatized not just by one thing, but by a whole bunch of things.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 04:34:06 pm by ineedcrayons »

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2007, 02:10:32 pm »
I would like to see something other than the A.P. news release, because that news release is quite sketchy.
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2007, 04:31:11 pm »


     I will put my two cents in here, if i may.  I agree with those who say that the teacher was showing, a
total lack of judgement, and if not otherwise, disregarding what she had to have known was a movie that would have not been approved by the authorities.  Otherwise she would not have made such a disclaimer, as "close the doors, or : what is in this class stays in this class."  The least of what she can be charged with is stupidity, and otherwise outright disobedience of policy.
     Now having said all that, I think in my opinion, the sex was the least likely to be traumatizing in this movie.
The graphic murder scene being the most shocking, and probably the most damaging.  Secondly all the knowledge of lies and deceit, and affairs...Lastly without a guidance to children of this age, never mind the lasting damage in fear that could be visited on a young child.  To me this was on a par, although a movie, is not the same as real life.  It is a lot like what is done to Ennis when he was a child....
     Can you imagine how one of those children having not been given good guidance, before...if they might be grappling with the gender identification problem...ie, lesbianism, gay or such....DEVASTATING........



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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2007, 05:06:08 pm »
I wonder, though, how many twelve-year-olds might even be able to grasp the emotional nuances of the story and how it is conveyed. So much of the theme hinges on regret--and regret tends to accrue as we advance through life, often with many decades behind us. I think much, if not indeed all of the film would likely go over most children's heads.

Offline opinionista

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2007, 05:28:51 pm »
I actually find it hard to believe that kid was actually traumatized. In any case, she was bored, and so were her classmates. This isn't the kind of movie that a 12 year old would like to see in the first place. Not because of the gay content because it is a slow, romantic movie. As for the violence, I doubt it actually hurt the girl. Come on people, children are exposed to much more violence than it is shown in Brokeback. I'm sure all of them have seen Superman, Spiderman, Batman, Star Wars, etc... that contain much more violence than BBM does.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2007, 06:46:22 pm »
I agree with you, Natali.  And again, I think that the fact that no one has gone out of their way to say that her trauma *wasn't* caused by the gay content speaks volumes.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2007, 11:07:01 pm »
I agree with you, Natali.  And again, I think that the fact that no one has gone out of their way to say that her trauma *wasn't* caused by the gay content speaks volumes.


I think they're trying to imply that without actually saying it.  Otherwise, why would a movie about cheating spouses and violence 'traumatize' a 12 year old when she can see that daily on daytime and prime-time TV soap operas?

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #66 on: May 17, 2007, 09:53:01 am »
I just to got to thinking, that the eviscerated sheep could be quite upsetting to a child. Surely not enough to constitute litigation-worthy trauma, but it could definitely haunt a young person for a while after having seen it.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2007, 10:10:50 am »
I agree, there are some things in the movie that are potentially disturbing. But -- while emphasizing that I think the teacher was wrong and I am not advocating BBM as appropriate fare for a classroom of 12-year-olds -- there are worse things in the world than being disturbed by a work of art.

Heck, there are worse things in the world that 12-year-olds and everybody else should find disturbing! For example, I rented "Hotel Rwanda" to watch with my kids. The movie has no sex or nudity, and isn't even particularly graphically violent. But it is, and should be, disturbing.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Lawsuit over Brokeback Mountain in class
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2007, 09:19:11 pm »
I just to got to thinking, that the eviscerated sheep could be quite upsetting to a child. Surely not enough to constitute litigation-worthy trauma, but it could definitely haunt a young person for a while after having seen it.

When my little niece is watching nature programs, and she is about to watch a wolf or fox or something run down a rabbit or deer, I pretty much just hold her, tell her how sad it is for the rabbit/bird/deer, but everybody has to eat.  Maybe the wolf/fox had babies to feed.  She accepts this now as a sad part of life, but a part of life nonetheless.  A dog getting hit by a car is more disturbing IMO.  There's no reason nor anything natural about that but yet that, too, happens every day where children can see it.