Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
what's the point of the job switch?
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: lnicoll on May 01, 2006, 04:02:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 01, 2006, 01:52:46 pm ---
--- Quote --- Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"?
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
Guess I don't because I have known several straight men who have enjoyed anal penetration and the resultant pleasure. Maybe not being fucked by another man, but fingers, dildos, other objects that may have been, ahem, available...all worked...
--- End quote ---
Good and valid point. My real point, perhaps not stated as clearly as it should have been, is "taking it up the ass from another man"--getting fucked by another man. In Western society the taboo goes all the way back to the Romans, at least. Getting fucked--front or back--was something for boys, slaves, and women, not for free adult males.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 01, 2006, 04:13:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 01, 2006, 01:52:46 pm ---Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.
Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.
The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.
--- End quote ---
I really wish more men would join this discussion. It does seem odd for so many women to be debating it with one man, who is thus forced to be the sole spokesman for the entire gay community. Not that I don't respect your opinon, Jeff, obviously, but it would be nice to hear some others.
Everything you say makes sense. And again, maybe I just have to defer to you because of our demographic differences. But doesn't your view involve at least a little leap of assumption? I mean, isn't there the slightest room for doubt?
I don't know why the women in this discussion care what the answer is on this. I'm not even sure I necessarily do. Maybe we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's just to try to understand the way things like that work.
Anyway, I may agree with you on the tent scene. I've heard people say Ennis was pulling and I have tried to see it that way and think I sort of can, but my initial impression was that it was Jack rolling.
--- End quote ---
Tell you what, Katherine, I wish we could have had other guys weigh in on this one, too, because I'm not comfortable being cast in the role of spokesperson for anyone's point of view other than my own.
Aren't we all making assumptions, regardless of our view? I don't like being confrontational, so I wish I could admit to even a teeny iota of doubt, because I hate to come across as so obstinate, but on this issue, the truth is, I have none. I know it's not a case of allowing my understanding of the story to corrupt my view of the movie because I feel that "Story Ennis" is less internally homophobic than "Movie Ennis," and I don't see "Story Ennis" getting penetrated by Jack either. But in my 20 years "out" I've even known openly gay men with rigid views of sex performance roles--they'd never dream of "switching"--so in the case of a character as terrified of being "queer" as I see Ennis, I see it as even less likely to happen. I just can't see him ever taking the passive or submissive role.
I'll admit I can see Jack "switching" and taking the active role, perhaps on a trip to Mexico, because I see Jack as more evolved and less terrified of who he is, but when he's with Ennis, he's the passive partner. I understand his frustrated outburst about not getting by on a couple of high-altitude fucks a couple of times a year in quite a literal sense--he needs to be fucked--and preferably by Ennis--more often than a couple of times a year.
I don't mean to come across as if I'm insisting "I'm right and you're wrong" because none of this is ultimately provable. I'd like to understand why this seems to be so important to some women fans. I'd budge if I could, but on this one I'm afraid my understanding is immovably fixed. Sorry!
moremojo:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 01, 2006, 04:48:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 01, 2006, 04:13:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 01, 2006, 01:52:46 pm ---Interesting. I just read Front-Ranger's last post again. As if I actually need an excuse to watch the film again--here's one. It has always, in ten viewings, appeared to me, that in the second tent scene it is Jack rolling over on top of Ennis, not Ennis pulling Jack on top of himself.
Now, please try to help me out, here. I am trying to understand, and no offense or disrespect to anyone's opinion intended, but why do some of you women apparently have such a difficult time with the idea that Ennis didn't get fucked by Jack? This isn't a gay thing. Do you not get how powerful the taboo is among "straight" males against "taking it up the ass"? I would have an easier time believing that the Ennis of the original story, who at least can admit that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sights, would switch roles, but not the Ennis of the film. That man, Ennis of the film, is extremely internally homophobic. That's one of his defining characteristics--this is what I meant when I said it would be an egregious violation of his character for him to have been the receptive partner.
The answer is not that Ennis isn't really "straight," because that is how he sees and defines himself. Guys like Ennis can ass-fuck any number of "queers" and emerge with their self-image intact because they've still played the "man's part." But try to turn the tables on them, you'll end up like Earl.
--- End quote ---
I really wish more men would join this discussion. It does seem odd for so many women to be debating it with one man, who is thus forced to be the sole spokesman for the entire gay community. Not that I don't respect your opinon, Jeff, obviously, but it would be nice to hear some others.
Everything you say makes sense. And again, maybe I just have to defer to you because of our demographic differences. But doesn't your view involve at least a little leap of assumption? I mean, isn't there the slightest room for doubt?
I don't know why the women in this discussion care what the answer is on this. I'm not even sure I necessarily do. Maybe we're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or maybe it's just to try to understand the way things like that work.
Anyway, I may agree with you on the tent scene. I've heard people say Ennis was pulling and I have tried to see it that way and think I sort of can, but my initial impression was that it was Jack rolling.
--- End quote ---
Tell you what, Katherine, I wish we could have had other guys weigh in on this one, too, because I'm not comfortable being cast in the role of spokesperson for anyone's point of view other than my own.
Aren't we al make assumptions, regardless of our view? I don't like being confrontational, so I wish I could admit to even a teeny iota of doubt, because I hate to come across as so obstinate, but on this issue, the truth is, I have none. I know it's not a case of allowing my understanding of the story to corrupt my view of the movie because I feel that "Story Ennis" is less internally homophobic than "Movie Ennis," and I don't see "Story Ennis" getting penetrated by Jack either. But in my 20 years "out" I've even known openly gay men with rigid views of sex performance roles--they'd never dream of "switching"--so in the case of a character as terrified of being "queer" as I see Ennis, I see it as even less likely to happen. I just can't see him ever taking the passive or submissive role.
I'll admit I can see Jack "switching" and taking the active role, perhaps on a trip to Mexico, because I see Jack as more evolved and less terrified of who he is, but when he's with Ennis, he's the passive partner. I understand his frustrated outburst about not getting by on a couple of high-altitude fucks a couple of times a year in quite a literal sense--he needs to be fucked--and preferably by Ennis--more often than a couple of times a year.
I don't mean to come across as if I'm insisting "I'm right and you're wrong" because none of this is ultimately provable. I'd like to understand why this seems to be so important to some women fans. I'd budge if I could, but on this one I'm afraid my understanding is immovably fixed. Sorry!
--- End quote ---
I'll weigh in on this one, guys, for what it's worth as another gay male voice on this issue.
I agree with Jeff on the improbability of Ennis deviating much, if ever, from the dominant, "top" position in regard to his sexual relations with Jack. I think he would be more likely to become more experimental as time passed and he felt more at ease with his sexual identity, but I'm not sure how much he would have progressed along these lines before the moment of Jack's death. It is that latter event that forces Ennis to acknowledge, if only to himself, the reality of what Jack was, and the true nature of their relationship.
Now, we know that Ennis was in love with Jack while Jack was still living (though it's debatable how conscious Ennis was of his true feelings), and strong love can propel people into activities and gestures that they might not otherwise countenance. But Ennis's strong internalized homophobia may have acted as a potent counterbalance to any impulse he might have entertained of reciprocating Jack's position/role, though this does beg the question of how he rationalized Jack's playing of that role, considering the impression I have that, for most of their time together, Ennis insisted in his mind that Jack, like he, is really a straight guy who is overtaken by this strange "thing" that exists between them.
Another observation: I have observed, in gay male pornography, the frequent phenomenon of some performers reciprocating fellatio but never receptive anal intercourse. If Ennis ever did "service" Jack, I think it far more likely that he would have done so orally rather than anally. Of course, either way, we can never know for sure.
Cordially,
Scott
Front-Ranger:
Okay Jeff and Scott. I stand (or sit, or ride) corrected. But only because your birthday's coming up! ;D
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on May 01, 2006, 07:16:59 pm ---Okay Jeff and Scott. I stand (or sit, or ride) corrected. But only because your birthday's coming up! ;D
--- End quote ---
Well, now you're making me feel bad! :( Don't give up your opinion just because someone has a birthday coming up! (Birthday? What birthday? :o )
Scott, if you see this, I appreciate you joining in. I was feeling kind of lonely. ... And improbable was a good choice of words. Actually, as I read it again, your whole post was very well put and well argued! And you do raise a very important issue that hasn't been part of this discussion, how Ennis rationalized Jack's role in their relations. I'm wondering whether he just didn't allow himself to think about it--until, perhaps, Jack's admission that he had been to Mexico kind of forced Ennis to face up to it.
Interesting point you raise about the pornography, too. Personally, though, I have to disagree with you on one point. The idea of Ennis sucking cock strikes me as just about as improbable as the idea of him getting fucked. I would imagine he'd find that just as "queer" as getting fucked. But, you're right. We can never know for sure.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version