Did the lost month make a difference? -- by jshane2002

[TOoP/Bruce]

REPOST
===============================================================
Did the lost month make a difference?
by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:05:04 )   
   
UPDATED Thu May 18 2006 00:11:41
This is a repost of a discussion thread that was deleted a few months ago but was has been referred to by many regular contributors.

"Lost Month" is a "what if" discussion about how different things might have turned out for Jack and Ennis if they had not had their summer on Brokeback Mountain cut short by a month.

It's a sudden turn of events for both of them but each of them reacts in different way.

I archived this thread a few months ago. Since these threads are "nested" and someone can reply to another message anywhere up and down the thread the messages are not exactly in chronological order. Some messages here that were posted in January, 2006 appear well after other messages from February, 2006.

Just as joyce023 has compiled her list of threads 6 times so far, this is my second reposting of this thread. -- jshane2002



--------------- LOST MONTH -------------------------------------------------------



by - Rontrigger (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:15:08 )
It seems to me that one of the most devastating events in Ennis's life didn't seem to be that when it happened. I mean the day he came back down from the sheep to find Jack breaking camp--and learning that Aguirre was letting them go a month early. As I would like to explore here, this ran up against something pretty consistent in Ennis's personality: he clearly did NOT like surprises.

I wonder if the dramatic effect on both of them resulting from their unexpected departure would have occurred if they'd stayed another month, and been able to prepare psychologically for the end of the job. I think things could have turned out differently for them.

After two months on the mountain (the longest time they would ever have together [sob!]), their camaraderie was well established. They certainly weren't complimenting each other on how great each was in the sack, but I'm pretty sure each was telling himself what a great friend he had. And the romp that Aguirre saw through his binocs indicates they were really having fun. (For a moment, let's ignore the sex, the love...just think about the fun they had with each other--something I think they both needed and wanted just as much.)

When Jack tells Ennis that Aguirre wants the sheep brought down, Ennis clearly is totally unprepared for this. It would have been another week or two before he'd have to think seriously about the end of the summer. Now it slaps him in the face.

It saddens him. It depresses him. Of course he means it when he lashes out at Aguirre for cheating them out of a month's pay--but I'm sure that's not uppermost in his mind as he goes to sit on the hillside, practically in a trance.

(By then, of course, he's snapped back at Jack's offer to loan him some money. There's something of interest: we never again see Jack offering to help out Ennis financially, despite the fact that the economic gap between them widens considerably during their lives.)

Ah, Jack...he's so playful as he gets the idea to lasso Ennis. Then he makes a big mistake, I think...lassoing Ennis's feet and causing him to trip. Their (seemingly) natural inclination to wrestle turns violent...and by the time they return to Signal it's obvious that neither is in a good mood.

It's all too sudden, folks. They needed a few more weeks together. They needed to come back to town on the day they thought they would.

And what would have been different? No bloody shirts. No dry heaves for Ennis (at least for a while). Jack, I think, would have offered him a ride to Riverton--even if it were out of the way, which it may have been.

Of course, a lot would depend on whether Ennis, by then, would have reconsidered marrying Alma so soon. I could see Jack, with an additional three or four weeks, trying to plant seeds of doubt in Ennis's mind.

And would he have been successful? I imagine Ennis taking Jack up on that ride, and Jack saying, "I guess I'll be heading to Lightning Flat. Why don't you come with me?"

What do you all think?

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - Roosalka (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:22:10 )   
Rontrigger, I think you bring up an excellent point. The month gap continues the theme of "there just ain't never enough time." Everything between Jack and Ennis is unfinished and without closure. I believe Proulx uses that month as a physical manifestation of the feelings they have for each other; each time they begin to enjoy just "being" with each other, a sense of outside obligation tears them apart. They cannot have that extra emotional month, because that one month is what allows them to survive on the pitiful string of life that they present to the waking world.


by - samantha_Jones (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:27:58 )   
An excellent point indeed... I'm so depressed.

they expelled me for my theory of actual reality - tom collins RENT



by - Rontrigger (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:30:57 )   
<Sigh> I seem to have a knack for depressing people...damn!

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - mikel1814 (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:35:16 )   
Both times, they miss August. They leave early from Brokeback. August.
Ennis can't get away until November. They miss August.

Ennis decides to start communicating again and puts the numbers on his mailbox.

1...7...

8.

August.



by - Roosalka (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:37:52 )   
OOOH!! I love stuff like that! Thanks Mike!

they expelled me for my theory of actual reality - tom collins RENT



by - delalluvia (Mon Jan 23 2006 21:50:17 )   
Ron excellent POV, but let me play devil's advocate here.

Suppose they did have that extra month.

Ennis knows the end is coming. Things are moving along, September is within sight. Would Ennis have not used that time to start to distance himself from Jack? This 'one shot thing' they had going was winding down and he probably would have indulged himself a bit more before starting to talk about leaving the mountain and marrying Alma and steeling himself for the end?

There wouldn't have been the fight or the dry heaves of separation because - like the relatives of a slowly dying cancer patient - he would have readied himself for the end earlier.

(Ennis was kinda sorta playful as well during the lasso scene. It was he who said 'this ain't no rodeo, cowboy' and pulled Jack toward him and off balance)

Team Jolie



by - Rontrigger (Mon Jan 23 2006 22:24:54 )   
Yea, that all makes sense. But I don't think readying himself for the end would have meant the end of the friendship with Jack. I can't believe the only reason for their lifelong attraction to each other was their sudden separation.

Perhaps this is coloring my whole view of the story, but it's their friendship that moves me more than anything else about them. Just like I don't want to believe the other side in the Accident/Murder War, I grasp at straws at anything that tells me there's no way they voluntarily would never have seen each other again.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - jscheib (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:11:46 )   
<<Perhaps this is coloring my whole view of the story, but it's their friendship that moves me more than anything else about them.>>

Ron,

It's nice to see somebody else comment on the friendship between our boys. Clearly, regardless of whatever else they felt for each other, each was also the best and most enduring friend the other ever had.

jscheib


by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 10:28:54 )   
jscheib,
This is an interesting comment.

(for the sake of this discussion only, nothing personal intended)
Because to me it suggests you think that it's possible to have Love without Friendship. (And I suppose this comment goes to Rontrigger's remarks too)

(the print story may say other things about this subject but I limit my interpretations and conclusions based only on the content and implication of the movie) For me, this _movie_ IS about the LOVE the two have for each other. And to me, that LOVE must include FRIENDSHIP as a given. I do not see the two boys as simply horny sex partners. I see their physical relationship as a natural expression of their love for each other, which must already have sincere friendship contained within it.

I might have missed the subtlety of your point, but by the end of that first Summer together, there is no doubt that the boys shared love, and I can't comprehend sharing love with another who was not, as a given, also a friend. Certainly the opposite is possible. I have friends whom I care for but don't LOVE in that all encompassing passionate way. But I've never experienced that all encompassing passionate LOVE with anyone who was not also a friend. I guess a definition of the word love and it's implications is what is behind the subject of this post.

To me this story is not about two boys sharing physical sex, and that's the end of it. (of course it's not, though some condemners seem to want to believe that's what this film is about!)

Rather this story is the story of two people who come together by fate, by chance, and who passionately grow (fall?) in love for each other. A full passionate love which encompasses friendship and caring, AND also the desire to share both, time together and physical passion together.

It is this idea of mine which is behind some older postings I've made where I argue for (movie) Ennis's innate orientation NOT begin homosexual. Without muddying this thread and getting into that, briefly I feel that this overriding intense Friendship which was also Love naturally evolved into a physical relationship between the two, and was thus unique in Ennis's life, both from the point of view of expressing physical intimacy with another male, but also from any inclination or desire to express physicality with any OTHER male.

Whether the boys ever shared physical intimacy with each other again, I can imagine a life for these two characters of continued friendship and caring love, one for the other. Jack going off living his life, finding and sharing physical intimacy with other males, Ennis marrying Alma, growing old together, and all the time, Jack and Ennis seeing each other regularly and being the best friends of each other's life without ever again having sex together, and at the same time, never once regretting the magic of that first shared Summer. In other words, no repression or denial on Ennis's part about his orientation or his experience with Jack, but simply a natural fully expressed and unique time in the two boys lives. Of course that's a different story.

So for me, to speak of the LOVE between Jack and Ennis is EQUIVALENT and naturally implies the FRIENDHSIP between the two.

Jack in Maine

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:07:09 )   
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by - vampboi22 (Mon Jan 23 2006 22:22:10 )   

UPDATED Mon Jan 23 2006 22:23:59
I'm not going to add much to this but...

(By then, of course, he's snapped back at Jack's offer to loan him some money. There's something of interest: we never again see Jack offering to help out Ennis financially, despite the fact that the economic gap between them widens considerably during their lives.)

Thanks, I hadn't thought about that connection before. A couple of times I've wondered why Jack never offered money since he had so much (having the idea to use the payoff money from his father in law to start up a ranch for them doesn't count). That's a good point. I can see where Jack knew Ennis well enough to know he had too much pride to take Jack's money.

Ah, Jack...he's so playful as he gets the idea to lasso Ennis.

That's something that makes me really sad in their last scene together. Jack used to be so happy, playful, and hopeful. In that last scene you can really see how much sadness and disappointment he's had that is weighing him down now. That's part of what I like about the flashback too. Seeing the comparison between younger Jack watching Ennis ride off on his horse knowing he'll see him later that night and looking so happy and content about it then to see the look on older Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive off not knowing when they'd see each other next again and looking so tired and helpless. Also the comparison of Jack driving happily and singing to see Ennis only to be crying on the ride back. Kudos to Jake.

And what would have been different? No bloody shirts. No dry heaves for Ennis (at least for a while).

As much as I would've loved for them to be happy together, these were some of my favorite scenes of the movie so I'm glad those things are there.



by - Rontrigger (Mon Jan 23 2006 22:32:01 )   
"As much as I would've loved for them to be happy together, these were some of my favorite scenes of the movie so I'm glad those things are there."

No problem. It's all just speculation--above and beyond that which we have to do to understand things that DO happen in the story.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - Rontrigger (Mon Jan 23 2006 22:58:15 )   
Bump.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx


by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:24:35 )   
Ba-bump-bump.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx





by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 10:39:00 )   
vampboi22,

You said:
....Jack used to be so happy, playful, and hopeful. In that last scene you can really see how much sadness and disappointment he's had that is weighing him down now. That's part of what I like about the flashback too. Seeing the comparison between younger Jack watching Ennis ride off on his horse knowing he'll see him later that night and looking so happy and content about it then to see the look on older Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive off not knowing when they'd see each other next again and looking so tired and helpless.


Yes this young time was a beautiful scene and does convey to me all you say it does; and this older time was very very painfully sad, again for all you say.


You say:
Also the comparison of Jack driving happily and singing to see Ennis only to be crying on the ride back. Kudos to Jake.

Definitely! Couldn't you just feel the thrill and happiness on his way to Ennis, all the potential and excitement rushing through his brain and soul. Then all the disappointing and crushing sadness and pain, trying to drive through the tears, away from his short-lived dream of at last finding the fulfillment he's longed for.


....No dry heaves for Ennis (at least for a while)...
You say:
As much as I would've loved for them to be happy together, these were some of my favorite scenes of the movie so I'm glad those things are there.


OH MAN YES! That excruciating pain of separation Ennis experiences......BIG kudos to Heath! It tears my soul and tears my eyes just to recall that scene.

Jack in Maine


by - sselma (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:34:44 )   
The month may well have helped - but it could also have soured things....

by leaving early it caught him unaware - and despite the fight, left things more open - Ennins didn't have time to fully comprehend these new feelings or their long term significance so he didn't have a change to run away from them either

If they had stayed longer, maybe they wouldn't have ended on such (relatively) good terms - they might have discussed things more and agreed to leave it behind them - Ennis may have had more time to get scared and pull away from Jack completely -scare him off

leaving early perhaps gave them the sense of unfinshed business, that they had to try and finish, maybe thats what brought them back together

So perhaps if they did stay that month - they never would have taken it further...


by - Jack_Me (Sun Jan 29 2006 10:08:08 )   
sselma,
You really have something in these thoughts.

I believe I know exactly what you mean, and given Ennis's character (as we later learn it) I'm afraid you might be on to some truth here. In these projected scenarios of our imagination, whatever development we have seen up to this point in time within the romance and friendship of the relationship, we can't forget what was said after the first encounter:

"This was a one shot deal.....Nobody's business but our own....I ain't queer.....me neither".

In some ways the two defined right then the limits of the relationship they then entered into that Summer. No matter how much they each may have let their emotional guard down after that point, they had already set the boundaries of how far it could go. Set the boundaries both within themselves, for themselves, and also set their boundaries to each other. In a sense what they have said is: For the time we have this Summer, up here on Brokeback, we'll let this happen. But when this Summer is over, that's the end of it.

Of course, their subsequent growing affection and love for each other, and for each other's company, may well have changed that agreed-on and pre-defined limit of their relationship when the end of the Summer would come, if it had come as expected. But as you say, with the end coming so suddenly, they didn't have the opportunity to come to the predefined end of their shared experience, so what they did get, likely made them feel very short-changed. Which of course is what we see as expressed by Ennis's comment about the money. That's certainly a "legitimate" concrete thing to externalize and vocalize, but it certainly is standing in for the emotional short-changing Ennis, ESPECIALLY, feels. Whether you agree or disagree on Ennis's innate sexual orientation prior to or after Brokeback Summer, there is no doubt that given his "lonely upbringing", this friendship, this bonding, this sharing, meant much much more to Ennis at that point in time, then if we say it was limited to romantic love and sexual expression. Ennis never had had this type of friendship, of belonging, of bonding, to another person as a friend.

Certainly the two elements of romance and sexuality are there for Ennis as well, but it is my feeling that what is primary for Ennis at this point is the sudden taking away of the friendship. Then later, over the next four years, Ennis has reminisced over and over about his happy Summer sharing with a friend, and of course reminisced about the physical comfort and sexual release he shared with Jack, and so I feel it is during these subsequent four years in which Ennis actually "fell in love" with Jack. Which, to me, helps explain the INTENSITY he feels and expresses when he does finally see Jack F**9%$^ Twist from the top of the stairs and rushes down to him and is so overcome with happiness and excitement, that he pours out all his longing of four years, all his remembered affection over the four years absence, all his remembered passion over those four years, and so he is out of control with intense passion and happiness until a little of that has been released and he suddenly begins to come back to the reality of where they are...and looks around again..and pushes Jack off him and then pulls him up the stairs. He's still thrilled and excited and happy, but his rational mind realizes they have to get somewhere safe and protected (like it was on Brokeback) real quick.

I've always felt that for Jack, this sudden end to their Summer was not nearly so threatening. Whether that's because he expected it would not change their relationship, or what I really feel....because for Jack this Summer, this person...was great and all....but not quite as great as it was for Ennis. Don't mean it was less than good at all, but I mean that Jack had likely already had sexual experiences (so shared that with another) and Jack (though apparently an only child?) did still have his parents (so had not suffered that loss) and basically Jack was an outgoing EX-troverted personality....so whether he had close friends or not, he did put himself out among people and got some sort of social interaction. In contrast to Ennis, who was an IN-troverted personality and isolated himself (this is even supported by his marrying Alma then settling them way out in the country, separated from other society).

Jack no doubt had pleasure and happy memories of his Summer with Ennis, that following Winter, and no doubt he reminisced about it too, but I'll bet for him it was a reminiscing of a happy pleasurable time....with the possibility of picking it up again next Summer. In other words, I don't think Jack felt as short-changed by the abrupt ending, and I don't think he felt bad or sad through the Winter. Whereas, Ennis, aside from his distraction of marrying and early pleasure with Alma, probably, when he reminisced DID continue to feel sad about the loss of his happy Summer and his bonding friendship.

In keeping with this train of thought, I think Jack although disappointed when he returned to Aguirre and didn't find a connection to Ennis there, probably pretty much put the memories of that previous Summer behind him. During the next 3 years from that point, he probably occasionally thought about Ennis and that Summer, WITHOUT a present current wrenching sadness or longing. then after 4 years had passed he probably thought....I'm going try to look up Ennis....I wonder what he's doing....I wonder how he feels about me...I wonder what he recalls about our Summer together.....maybe....maybe....we can get back some and have more of that happiness we had up there on Brokeback....probably not... but...I want to see if we can be still be friends anyway.

So he sends the postcard. And he hears from Ennis and Ennis WANTS to see him. Ba boom...instantly everything is kicked into the present and excitement rules.....(later in the movie we see him on a drive full of expectation and happiness which likely was a mirror of the excitement and anticipation of this first trip)....the more he thought as he was driving...the more he red-lined it....wondering what WOULD happen when they got together.....hoping he knew.....but not knowing for sure.....until Ennis sweeps him off his feet with such intense passion!

To me, THIS is the moment that they BOTH fell in love one with the other. This moment was the explosion of emotion which set all their past experiences of Brokeback Summer into a concrete foundation to a living relationship with a future.

So to try to get back to your point, sselma, I agree that the abrupt ending to the Summer, DEFINITEY formed the fertile ground of emotion in which Ennis grew his love for Jack over the next four years. And if Jack had NOT contacted him....he would have kept it has a bittersweet memory of something he once had and had lost. So finding it again so unexpectedly made him hold on to it and allowed him to have an ongoing relationship with Jack over the rest of the 20 years they shared. (of course he was still Ennis and so had all his limitations, fears and other problems to deal with, which colors and affects his relationship with Jack) But as you say, had the two had their expected time and ending on Brokeback, Ennis most surely would have put that Summer...and Jack too....behind him.

Jack in Maine


by - austendw (Mon Jan 30 2006 09:44:54 )   
To me, THIS is the moment that they BOTH fell in love one with the other. This moment was the explosion of emotion which set all their past experiences of Brokeback Summer into a concrete foundation to a living relationship with a future.

Damn! I'm sorry I missed this thread until now. I think your analysis of the development of the relationship is very plausible and nicely specific rather than broadly romantic and generalized. I like that a lot. However you may be slightly underestimating Jack's initial on-Brokeback feelings because he does steal Ennis's shirt, and this seems to mean more to him than just a pleasant keepsake of a nice sexy summer, given the way he treasures it, hanging it so symbolically within his own shirt. That already has a certain "romantic" intensity, no




by - Jack_Me (Tue Jan 31 2006 18:12:36 )   
Howdy austendw.
Yes you are right, and at the risk of sounding like I'm contradicting myself, I agree that Brokeback Summer was a big deal in Jack's life and swiping the shirt for a keepsake does indicate that it was big deal.


First let me say that my theorizing above about the two, and possibly their two different takes on the Summer, necessarily had some extreme elements to accent the differences between their two personalities, differences which do exist.

And second, although I am not arguing for this point of view at the moment, I do know from my own personal experience, people who would swipe the one and keep the two shirts together....not so much because those things were a part of the OTHER as because they were a part of THEMSELVES. In other words, and again I'm not...(yet!)...arguing for this point of view with Jack's character, but sometimes people keep mementos and souvenirs to remind themselves of the experience which THEY THEMSELVES HAD.....if you get my idea. From a self-centered point of view, the Summer and the relationship, was something Jack had, and enjoyed, and wanted to remember, and so he wanted a special memento of it. (Like a driftwood lamp from your Summer at the shore!) And as we later learn.....(I'm beginning to argue for the point....) Jack did keep mementos and souvenirs.....in his room at home. The BB gun/.22, the carved horse and rider...etc. So it is conceivable that a type of personality could save a memento of his OWN experience (which although with another person) but is not ABOUT that other person. IF I did argue or continue to argue this point of view for Jack's character, then it implies that initially he saved the shirts for himself, to remind himself, of his OWN experience, not to remind him of Ennis, who in this speculative theorizing could have been just anyone. So not ABOUT Ennis. About Jack.


Whew.....now that I've got that mental acrobatic act out....let me say that I don't agree with myself! hahhha..I mean I do believe, and I prefer to believe that the Summer was important to each of them, because to each of them it was about the other.


But it's fun to theorize on the known and projected personalities of the two and what implications for motive and other behaviour they each had or might have had.



Back to this thread and my earlier post though, even if I allow that Brokeback Summer was important to Jack, I still think my theorizing from that post can fit. Jack was much more of an accepting personality.

We see that especially when he final blows up at his Father-in-law. Prior to this there have been indications...baby looks like grandma..right Rodeo....throws keys....Rodeo will get it.....Jack says... father in law hates me.......but Jack obviously accepted it as the way it was, and put up with him and his lack of respect
until finally one Thanksgiving Day he blows up. You can bet that was the first time that Jack EVER spoke up, contradicted, shouted at, or defied his Father-in-law.

So being an accepting personality, when he returns to Brokeback the next Summer and asks Aguire whether Ennis Del Mar had been around.....and learns no....then Jack goes off to Texas rodeoing....he accepts then that Brokeback Summer and Ennis is a thing of the past. (.....else why didn't he ask "about 10 people before I found where you moved to..." that second Summer? Surely during that first Summer, Jack had learned where Ennis was heading, where Alma was living, etc. He wouldn't have had to start from complete ignorance. But he learns that Ennis didn't come back to Brokeback......so he puts it behind him and goes to Texas.

I think this last modification/amplification fits in to my earlier post without losing it's integrity. Do you?

Jack in Maine



by - BannerHill (Tue Jan 31 2006 18:24:28 )   
What great thoughts.

Who knows what would have happened in the last month?

I did kind of wonder why Jack didn't make more of a move relationship wise towards Ennis, and why he settled for a bloody shirt instead.




"I can't believe I left my damn shirt up there!"

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:11:35 )   
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by - austendw (Wed Feb 1 2006 05:19:10 )   
UPDATED Wed Feb 1 2006 05:21:08
I think this last modification/amplification fits in to my earlier post without losing it's integrity. Do you?

Yes. But I think that your observations about the characters, their feelings and motivations are particularly incisive; that's not mindless flattery either. here's an example.

Then Ennis goes off by himself, to grieve, to pout, and I'm sure is wracked with pain and sadness and probably LOTS of anger....towards life, towards A, and probably (just below the surface) towards Jack for not seeming as upset, as he (Ennis) is feeling. […]
That was one of the MOST accurate and true scenes in the film I thought! The two boys were NOT on the same page, as the saying goes, and that created the explosive clash.

Absolutely. Ennis does have anger towards Jack, here and throughout their relationship. It's not that uncommon. I have known, and known of, couples where the less confident one clearly feels a certain resentment for the more confident, more adjusted, less *beep* one.

And as an aside, I agree with you about the honesty of that scene. I know you don't like the story being brought into the discussion, but I will anyway. The story recounted this episode out of sequence, towards the end of the narrative (when Ennis finds the shirts), but the way the filmmakers developed it, expanding and integrating it into the earlier narrative, was truly masterful. It actually improved upon the story for me. Before, I didn't quite got a sense of how that punch-up happened – it seemed a bit out of the blue – but here it made perfect sense in every way.

A propos of the story, now I've mentioned it, the thing is that if you have read it recently, it's not at all easy to eliminate it from one's understanding of the film; even though this can becoem troublesome where the film and story differ. In this thread someone talks about the flashback of Ennis hugging Jack, and talks of the implications of Ennis not being able to hug him from the front. But of course the film doesn't show that at all - there's no hint of any negative implications and the person who brought it up must have felt this because of the influence, conscious or otherwise, of the story. I admit to problems about the way the final telephone is handled in the film, because I had developed a strong opinion from reading the stor
y. Well, I guess if you can't fix it....




by - Jack_Me (Wed Feb 1 2006 07:02:41 )   
Thanks austendw. I appreciate your comments.

I DO know what you mean about separating the two media and so keeping the impressions gained from details and presentation distinct to each media. Which is EXACTLY why I have intentionally chosen not to re-read the short story until I've 'finished' experiencing the film! I've seen the film 5 times now, this past Monday night most recently.

Although I have had to make some small adjustments in my impressions from the first viewing, I've found that I haven't had to make any major adjustments, and to the contrary, one of my major interpretations seems more and more obviously true to me now. (of course one might say that it's expected that one would feel that way about ones own interpretations, but I do try to be honest with myself in my thinking and do not feel I'm turning a blind eye to any information which might be contrary to my interpretation.)


As for the flashback hug, if what you are saying is that the film shows NO indication that Ennis has trouble hugging Jack from the front, I agree it does not. Which is why in some post or another of mine, I commented on that. I realized that the poster who referenced that was either bringing that information from the story, or was doing as I am doing and bringing his/her own interpretation based on his/her own surmising of Ennis's character.

This is why I do find these discussions on details and motives of the characters in the film so fascinating. It's amazing what you can learn about other people's thinking, AND ONES OWN, as the exercise continues and grows more complicated by focusing closer and closer on subtle details. Truly fascinating and worthwhile I believe.


I appreciate your recognizing my personal maxim to keep the two media separate, and lest you or anyone get the wrong idea, I AM anxious to again read the story (I had read it in my New Yorker when it first was published in 1997, but not re-read it since). But I am too much enjoying the security of knowing that all my thoughts and impressions are coming from the film, to yet mix them with impressions gained from reading the story. I WOULD have a hard time separating the two from the point of view of impression and projecting of character's motives and personality. At some later point, I look forward to a discussion focused on comparing the two versions and how they do diverge or mirror each other.

Jack in Maine



by - austendw (Wed Feb 1 2006 08:37:14 )   
At some later point, I look forward to a discussion focused on comparing the two versions and how they do diverge or mirror each other.

Well Jeez, hurry up will ya! I'm dying to discuss that with you right now! Don't know how long I can hold back talking about it!

Jeez, am I suffering from premature evaluation?



by - Jack_Me (Wed Feb 1 2006 17:44:22 )   
Well Jeez, hurry up will ya! I'm dying to discuss that with you right now! Don't know how long I can hold back talking about it!

Jeez, am I suffering from premature evaluation?


HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
Now that is very clever and I am literally laughing out loud.

Jack in Maine



by - mlewisusc (Sun Feb 5 2006 11:49:56 )   
From your thoughts here, it would be interesting to know if Jack took the shirts home, and then later (say, after his reunion with Ennis) nested them. If he nested the shirts later, I would completely agree with your analysis.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."



by - Jack_Me (Sun Feb 5 2006 13:13:46 )   
mlewisusc says:

From your thoughts here, it would be interesting to know if Jack took the shirts home, and then later (say, after his reunion with Ennis) nested them. If he nested the shirts later, I would completely agree with your analysis.
********************

mlewisusc, this is an interesting point.

It could imply an emotional and connected attitude towards Ennis.

But on the other hand, even as self-referencing mementos, it would still be reasonable for Jack to hang them that way, both on the single hanger, and one might say that having his shirt on the outside would also be natural for a self-referencing memento.

I'm just playing devil's advocate with the idea.


I hope it was already clear from my previous posts that this train of thought and interpretation of character, with its attendant implications, has been PURELY a mental acrobatic exercise for me. I do NOT really believe (and not only because I do not WANT to believe) that this train of thought is in any way an accurate estimate of Jack's character. I think it is fun and interesting to dissect and analyze everything, but as someone once said...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar!

Brokeback Summer WAS important to each because it was about the other; Jack did take the shirts as a memento of his time with Ennis because the shirt WAS about Ennis; and he did nest them together with Ennis's inside his and keep them unwashed because that both reminded him and symbolized the relationship bond which the two had formed that Summer, and it WAS the relationship of his lifetime and he loved Ennis!

There now, I hope I've put the fairy tale back on its shelf with all its sweetness, tenderness, longing and beauty because that's how I want to remember it too.

Jack in Maine

PS: mlewisusc, I would have loved to reply to your other post too.....but I can't 'cuz you mixed the two sources! Maybe later when I move into the mode of comparing the two media! But whatever each of us has set as our own personal guidelines and attitudes, I think it's great to read how others interpret and analyze.




by - austendw (Sun Feb 5 2006 15:35:53 )   
UPDATED Sun Feb 5 2006 15:36:42
I would have loved to reply to your other post too.....but I can't 'cuz you mixed the two sources! Maybe later when I move into the mode of comparing the two media!

Wow! Such intellectual rigour!




by - Jack_Me (Sun Feb 5 2006 19:30:37 )   
austendw, I hope and assume this was a playful jibe....

....for it's no such intellectual rigor, in fact it's my fear that I would have not the intellectual rigor to keep the two separate which has kept me from re-reading the short story until I no longer have the option to view the movie (on large screen). While it is true I have read the short story, it is also true that I read it in its original publication in the New Yorker some years back, and so I can (not proudly) but honestly say I couldn't have told you a thing about it, based on that reading, any more detailed then that it was a 'gay' story of two guys in the West. So all I do have in my head about the story line, the interactions, and the characters's personalities has come from the movie.

So you see, austendw, it's not intellectual rigor but actually ignorance of the short story which allows me the luxury of knowing I know what I know, I know from knowing the movie.

Jack in Maine

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:13:14 )   
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by - austendw (Mon Feb 6 2006 02:14:57 )   
UPDATED Mon Feb 6 2006 05:58:40
I hope and assume this was a playful jibe

Oh lord, of course it was, J! I'm really sorry if it sounded spiky... I'd had a glass of wine or two and, at the best of times, it's so damned difficult to get the proper tone of voice into quickly written communications. I once ended up upsetting someone badly when a text I meant to be light-hearted joshing was read as a serious rebuke. I guess that's what those funny icons are for, as in:

Wow! Such intellectual rigour!

or:

I'd had a glass of wine or two.

Anyway, my comment was a result of my impatience to chat about the differences between story and film, which I mentioned a coupla days ago. "Gun's goin off!" - if you know what I mean...





by - mlewisusc (Sun Feb 5 2006 17:29:55 )   
Jack,

I love mental exercises like this! Keep it up! And I'm sorry about the mixed sources - it just seems to happen automatically when I start thinking about these characters. Unlike you, since I couldn't keep getting to the film, I kept re-reading the story to satisfy my craving/longing/obsession. Put me on your "friends" list and PM me when you DO re-read the story!

Meanwhile, I want to say that I put up some arguments that fit into this vein some weeks ago, I think in an exchange with Rontrigger - and I was basically saying that perhaps the BBM summer was really "no big deal" for Jack until later . . . but the shirts (and his behavior at the goodbye) put that argument out, IMO. So, an interesting exercise, but the answer is probably exactly what the film tells us it is - neither really knows, has any pattern for, trying to be together or stay together - they are shut off from that solution by their circumstances. Only with the passing of the four years is Jack able to think up a plan that might work - and have the courage to suggest it (as well as arrange the financing - via L.D. Newsome's hatred of Jack).

Finally, in the thread above I never heard much about the punch Ennis laid on him and how that might have inhibited Jack from being more forward with Ennis about trying to hook up and/or stay together.

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."




by - feydora (Sun Feb 5 2006 18:58:46 )   
The lost month, IMO, didn't make any difference. The two guys might have been upset to have their time alone cut short but I really don't think that any of them would have been prepared for the last day anyways. They were oblivious to the world and their job ( sheeps be dammed).I mean, when you're in love over your head , you live in the now. I don't see Ennis starting to figure out that the countdown has begun. In fact, is there really a time to prepare for something you don't want? Our boys lived in their own little world. They may have come down Brokeback mountain in September and it wouldn't have changed anything...except for giving them the opportunity to have more time together...certainly not more time to prepare their departure. The dry heaves would have been there just the same since Ennis had them because he realized what he lost.

And I REALLY don't think that an extra month would have enabled them to make plans for the future. Ennis made sure that their story was kept secret for twenty years. How can anyone imagine that an extra month would have been enough to free him of his fears?

And, finally, yes they were good friends. That goes without saying. However, the main thing here is love AND passion. I'm pretty sure that Ennis didn't "wrang it a 100 times" thinking about Jack just because he was a good friend. They loved each other: physically, emotionnaly and every other ways you can think of.When you loose your soul mate, no matter how much time you had to get used to the idea, it hits you a a ton of bricks.



by - terryhall2 (Sat Mar 11 2006 19:07:28 )   
As a regression therapist, I think that sometimes souls get together again to work out what they couldn't in a past life, or to try and finish an old pattern. Ennis and Jack were definitely together for many reasons, each teaching the other that there is love, one partner trying to teach the other how to dream, accept himself, to laugh and do things that aren't necessarily duty (all of this is Jack) and Ennis brings Jack down to earth, offers him his friendship and more, loyalty, and his masculine embrace (even though Jack gets let down many times, he never gives up, even when he knows he must move on)
Ennis, after Jack's death, finally learns to open up, however small. I see Jack as an angel in Ennis' life and I'm sure Ennis did too.



by - seercy (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:38:22 )   
Do you not think that the fight that transpired after Jack lasooed Ennis, was becasue Ennis thought of the old man rancher that was drug by his penis, until it fell off?


by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 11:48:36 )   
No. Not at all. We see them wrestling prior to this. Coupled with Jack bringing him back from his solitary thoughts on the hillside ("Time to go, cowboy"), it just got out of hand, I think.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - pdburns1 (Sun Jan 29 2006 15:38:21 )   
Ennis was clearly upset about the missing month. And it didn't have anything to do with the month's pay. It was about leaving Jack. Ennis just wasn't prepared for it. When Jack lasooed him and he fell, Ennis was upset because they were having to leave each other. He had no other way to deal with his emotions. He certainly wasn't going to tell Jack that he loved him and wanted to be with him. Ennis wouldn't allow himself to be that vulnerable. When Jack kneed Ennis in the nose he started hugging him. Ennis couldn't trusted himself. He didn't want to be open with his feelings. Ennis was too afraid.




by - purchas500 (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:01:22 )   
Rontrigger,

I really like your version of what might have happened if they had had that extra month on Brokeback, it's certainly more cheerful than the real version of the story. I also believe that the extra month would have changed things in the long run. Ennis' issues still would have prevented a blissful life, but I think the extra month would have given them more time to think things through... most notably, to organise when they would see each other next after leaving brokeback (I loath the seen when they say " i guess i'll see you around" and go their separate ways). Oh how I wish one of them had said "I want to see you again soon", their lives still would have been difficult, but at least they wouldn't have wasted four years, and it's likely that they wouldn't have put down roots in different States if it wasn't for those four years. And another thing... I understand why Ennis was opposed to the idea of him and Jack living together because of the dangers he perceived, but it bloody annoys me that he wouldn't even agree to moving a bit closer to Texas after his divorce. Yes he wanted to be able to see his kids, but i get the impression that he didn't see them often anyway.



by - EnnisLovesJack (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:05:23 )   
When Jack tells Ennis that Aguirre wants the sheep brought down, Ennis clearly is totally unprepared for this. It would have been another week or two before he'd have to think seriously about the end of the summer. Now it slaps him in the face.

It saddens him. It depresses him. Of course he means it when he lashes out at Aguirre for cheating them out of a month's pay--but I'm sure that's not uppermost in his mind as he goes to sit on the hillside, practically in a trance.

(By then, of course, he's snapped back at Jack's offer to loan him some money. There's something of interest: we never again see Jack offering to help out Ennis financially, despite the fact that the economic gap between them widens considerably during their lives.)


Yes, Rontrigger, I totally agree! The second and third times I watched BBM solidified this interpretation in my mind: when ennis fumes about Aguirre cheating them out of a month's pay, I think what he's really thinking is, Aguirre's cheating them out of their remaining time together, in the one haven he's ever found, where he can actually relax, smile, have some fun, experience some happiness, and of course, enjoy his love with Jack. I think this is what he's furious about, though I guess that's kind of obvious.

It's true though, that Ennis is dirt poor throughout the film. And both his comments, about aguirre cheating them out of a month's pay, and him snapping at Jack when JAck offers him a loan, are about money. So that's probably part of what's going on. But ultimately, I think 95% of those two comments Ennis makes are about his bewilderment, rage, and the sudden, staggering loss he feels. No wonder he feels he is in a headlong, irreversible fall when they come down from the mountain. As far as he knows, this is all over, he'll never see Jack again, never have true joy again, and never even have the chance to figure out what this was all about, what his love for Jack means, how he even feels, etc.

Also, the symbolism of the mountain, and coming down it. I just had a thought, a biblical/religous inplication. When they are up on the mountain, they are somehow in touch with God, spirit, truth, etc., because true love, and sex with someone you love, is like communing with the divine. An older relative of mine told me that when she made love with her husband (they married in the early '40s,) she always felt God's presence. Wow. I totally want a love so deep and strong that you feel spiritually exalted when you're with your lover. And I'm not some religious nut or anything, but this thought did hit me. Also, of course, they are above all the muck and insanity and constraint of the world, able to see above and beyond it. And all that stuff that I should probably save for a thread about the symbolism of the mountain. Anyway....


Someone, was it you?, also mentioned that Ennis truly had FUN with Jack, aside from the sex and the love, they had fun, which with each of their lonely (and for Jack, loveless) upbringings, was probably extremely rare. The story even states, as Ennis starts to have relax and open up to Jack, as a friend, in conversation (remember how they open up about their families and laugh and get goofy, and they start to bond) BEFORE sex enters into it, that it's the first time in his *life* he's really ever had fun. I think it's one of their dinners at camp, Ennis rides off to the sheep musing on what a great time he had during that camp chat, how he's never "had such a fine time."

"I'm sending up a prayer of thanks."



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:18:49 )   
"I think it's one of their dinners at camp, Ennis rides off to the sheep musing on what a great time he had during that camp chat, how he's never 'had such a fine time.'"

In fact (I need to re-check the story now), I think that's when Ms. Proulx also says that Ennis "could have pawed the white out of the moon." And he was feeling this way even before they became intimate.

They were so right for each other.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - henrypie (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:25:48 )   
This speculation is all so thoughtful and so sad. Thank you for it.



by - jscheib (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:24:10 )   
Very interesting and thought-provoking comments on this thread!

I never gave that "lost month" much thought before. Poor Ennis, I've come to see him as somebody so completely out of touch with his feelings, and the bewilderment and anger he feels at having to come down from the mountain early certainly go along with that, I believe. Clearly, the loss of the extra month's pay isn't really the issue. He's just displacing his real feelings because he isn't in touch with what he's really feeling.

I'm reminded as I write this of how the story uses the mixed up flocks of sheep and the descent from the mountain as metaphors for Ennis's feelings.

That "lost month" clearly left our boys with "unfinished business." On the other hand, if they had that month to finish that business and put the experience behind them, we might not have had a story--or a movie <G>.




by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 12:40:59 )   
"That 'lost month' clearly left our boys with 'unfinished business.' On the other hand, if they had that month to finish that business and put the experience behind them, we might not have had a story--or a movie <G>."

That, of course, is a possibility--but as I think is well established, these guys had formed the strongest bond of friendship that either would have in his life. They'd have seen each other again, I'm sure--it might not have taken four years, there probably wouldn't have been that dam-busting reunion kiss--but they weren't gonna forget each other.

At least they'd have shaken hands before parting at the end of the summer. No doubts there.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - jscheib (Tue Jan 24 2006 13:06:35 )   
I'm with you all the way on the friendship aspect, rontrigger.

And I don't understand why in the movie they don't at least shake hands. Seems like the natural thing to do--they shake hands in the story.




by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 14:51:54 )   
I'll bet it was a conscious choice not to have them shake hands. In the context of their departure--the suddenness of it, the fact that so much had to be going through their minds that they couldn't bring themselves to say--I think it makes perfect sense that they didn't shake hands.

But I'm just as sure that they would have shaken hands in a less awkward, more relaxed moment of departure.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx


by - Brkback (Tue Jan 24 2006 22:49:45 )   
Ms Proulx reminds us in an interview that "A story is not finished until it is read."

So, in my little world that I experience when I read the story, Jack and Ennis cannot shake hands, cannot touch, because to do so would amplify the pain of the parting, and possibly risk a full-scale public hugging/kissing "spectacle" of the sort that happened at the bottom of Ennis' staircase later. That's my take, anyway.

Ennis: "And I thought the soup boxes was hard to pack!"



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:09:06 )   
That is quite possible, although--always looking for practical points, here--I don't see that they had any way of concealing themselves around Aguirre's trailer the way they did four years later at the reunion. That alone could have put the brakes to that scenario.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx


by - jscheib (Wed Jan 25 2006 06:33:42 )   
<<Ms Proulx reminds us in an interview that "A story is not finished until it is read."

So, in my little world that I experience when I read the story, Jack and Ennis cannot shake hands, cannot touch, because to do so would amplify the pain of the parting, and possibly risk a full-scale public hugging/kissing "spectacle" of the sort that happened at the bottom of Ennis' staircase later. That's my take, anyway. >>

Well, yes, Briback, I hate to be disagreeable, but since you mention the story, in the story they do shake hands before they go their separate ways after they're paid off for the summer.


by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 13:52:50 )   
Brkback,
You've got it EXACTLY to my mind. That is how I experienced the scene in the movie too. It also symbolizes to me the RELUCTANCE they feel to part from each other, even though their words and actions eventually are about parting.

It's a little like "I don't want this to happen, I don't want this to happen" keeps running through their minds, while at the same time on the outside they continue to go awkwardly through the typical social parting ritual, a ritual which of course they both, as all of us has, had experienced many times in less emotionally fraught situations.

Jack in Maine



by - mlewisusc (Sun Feb 5 2006 12:03:51 )   
Many long weeks ago I posted on some thread the idea that Jack and Ennis had not even kissed until the reunion scene. Of course, that is only possible in the story, because in the film the second tent scene shows them kissing.

However, here are my points to argue that they didn't have a "physical vocabulary" for saying goodbye at the end of the summer (other than the roping and the wrestling, which didn't turn out so well):

1. The way Proulx describes the sex on the mountain

2. The fact that during the flashback Jack knows Ennis does not want to see or feel that it's Jack (a man) that he holds

3. The "I'm not no queer" and the "me neither" comments - kissing another man IMO would have been seen by Ennis as a particularly "queer" thing to do

4. The lack of privacy, as is pointed out above

Finally, how repressed is Ennis? Most of us would agree with "A LOT." He gets sick within a mile (no sobbing in the story) but tells Jack at their reunion that it was a year before he understood that his affliction was losing Jack's company.

Sorry I'm mixing my film and story here so liberally, I have been justly accused before this . . .

". . . the single moment of artless, charmed happiness. . ."

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:17:54 )   
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by - EnnisLovesJack (Tue Jan 24 2006 14:09:40 )   
Thanks for pointing out the mixed flocks of sheep metaphor. I didn't catch that. It's amazing how many subtle (and probably some obvious) meanings and symbolism people have drawn from the movie that went *completely* over my head. Thank you to everyone for sharing what they noticed, and enriching my experience of the film. The depth and layers of meaning, allusion, metaphor, etc. just boggle and thrill and satisfy me so much! This work of art is so rich!

Yep, Rontrigger, that's the same line/passage whe she writes "he could paw the white out of the moon." Intersting turn of phrase. She's such an amazing writer.

I've wondered why Jack doesn't seem to react to the sudden cutting short of their summer. He's the emotionally demonstrative one, right? Why don't we see this? Is he being brave for Ennis' sake?


"I'm sending up a prayer of thanks."



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 15:40:19 )   
I'm pretty sure Jack IS being brave for Ennis's sake, but at the same time, Jack has a bit of an advantage--he's been told by Aguirre to wrap things up (we don't know how many minutes or how many hours earlier) and so, while breaking camp, he's had time to absorb it.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx




by - EnnisLovesJack (Tue Jan 24 2006 16:04:27 )   
But time to absorb it wouldn't mitigate his anguish or concern about what would - or would not - happen next for them. We see Jack's turmoil when they part by the truck, and he's trying to feel Ennis out about whther he'll return the next summer. It's funny, this point never struck me before, but the now it's bugging me, I'm curious.

Maybe when Jack gets the word to pack up and head down, he takes it as a given that he and Ennis will continue their relationship. Maybe Ennis's total noncommittal-ness when they part, and the heart-sinking torpedo of Ennis's "see you around" (around where, Ennis?) take Jack by surprise?

God, I LOVE Jack in that scene. I think it's one of my favorite Jack moments, especially that expression he makes when he syasy "...might be back." That little eyebrow shrug and the attemtped, half-hearted smile, the tilted head, all that he's conveying with his face, eyes, voice.

"I'm sending up a prayer of thanks."




by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 16:43:21 )   
Maybe when Jack gets the word to pack up and head down, he takes it as a given that he and Ennis will continue their relationship. Maybe Ennis's total noncommittal-ness when they part, and the heart-sinking torpedo of Ennis's "see you around" (around where, Ennis?) take Jack by surprise?

Agree EloveJ. This was discussed on another thread. Jack wasn't very upset about coming down a month early because he wasn't expecting to be dumped. If you check the trailer, they left out a scene of Jack and Ennis being trucked back to Signal after they come down. Ennis faces the camera, then he closes his eyes in pain. Jack is sitting in the middle between Ennis and the driver and his face is calm and serene. Two totally different moods and expectations.

Team Jolie



by - EnnisLovesJack (Tue Jan 24 2006 17:07:34 )   
Ooh, I didn't know that. There must be a couple versions of the trailer, I don't think I've seen that scene. Do you have a link to it?
Also, do you remember which thread it was discussed in? I'm curious to see what people said about this. Thanks delalluvia.

"I'm sending up a prayer of thanks."



by - delalluvia (Tue Jan 24 2006 17:32:49 )   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 17:46:59
Here you go ElovesJ but eh, don't bother. I just checked it out myself and I was wrong. They're being trucked TO the mountain because Ennis has his old shirt on, not the one he comes down the mountain in.

http://www.brokebackmountain.com/splash.html

I'll try to look but I have no idea what the name of the thread was. It had to have been posted around the end of the first week of December.

Team Jolie






the trucking up scene explained   
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hey delalluvia, thanks for the pm, i'll reply to it soon (might be tomorrow or monday...)

Last night I read the 2003 script, which is very different from the final script. Lots of extra scenes, most of which I didn't like. A couple '05 script scenes are missing, and Ennis is a much less sympathetic character. It really makes you appreciate the final version of the script.

The reason I bring this up: in the '03 script, there's a scene the night before they are trucked up to the jump off, at the beginning of the summer. In this scene, the boys are sleeping in Jack's truck (no where else to stay, and no money for a motel). Jack sleeps soundly through the night. But Ennis is wide awake all night, can't sleep. The script for next scene, when they are being trucked up the next morning, says that Jack is alert and awake, but Ennis feels hungover, exhausted, unrested.

So I think that is why he closes his eyes in that brief shot of them in the trailer, being trucked up. In pain, perhaps, but mostly from his sleepless night. Still, I'd like it better if it were in fact them being trucked down the day of the fight. It'd be more poignant, for me, anyway.

There are several scenes in the 2003 script that explain some of the seemingly odd stuff in the film. I suspect some of these scenes made it to the final script but were either not shot, or shot but then cut.

There it is, long, but hopefully makes some sense of the mystery.

"Braced for it all these years, and here it was, late, and unexpected."





Re: the trucking up scene explained   
by - andrewscotth (Sat Mar 11 2006 18:03:11 )   
Having seen this beautiful film first in late January (and reading the short story itself in bed the next morning) and been to see it SO many times on the way home from work at the local multiplex - so lucky to have that only five minutes from the office and five minutes to the train station - made it so easy to spend an hour or two with my favourite guys! - I enjoy so much reading others thoughts and absorption in the characters like my own.

It WAS all a big deal to them from the very start - the morning after the first tent scene is stuck in my memory - the SO happy, contented, beautiful look on Jack's face as he lies asleep next to Ennis. Ennis wakes up and I almost laughed the first time I saw the film and thought he was thinking "Oh My God, yes I did do it, Oh My God" and rubs his forehead. Jack is so hurt when Ennis leaves with no words and only a cross (or confused) look on his face and the music sweeps you down into the depth of feeling Jack feels that his love is not being given back at that point - that unrequited love that hurts so much.

I think, and without wanting to prompt Jack in Maine any more than he should - that the short story does give (with only a few words - the skill of Annie Proulx) - much more depth on Ennis's character after their parting which is revealed in the motel scene in the book. He had taken a long time to actually recognise what he felt inside, whilst all the time feeling an excitement and lust for Jack which had survived always since they had parted. "A hunderd times" he says - hey bet it was more than that! But he did recognise his love and understood what had happened to him.

The motel scene as written is I think pivotal in Ennis's character development and missed a bit from the film version. It makes him more real to me and I understand him more - he's more human. He hadn't forgotten Jack for a minute - either emotionally or sexually. The guy was with him all the time after they parted. And I like that. I like that a lot.





by - paintedponyxox (Fri Mar 10 2006 21:44:15 )   
UPDATED Fri Mar 10 2006 21:56:39
The fact that Jack offers to lend Ennis money, I think, proves that he didn't think this was going to be the end of everything. If he was going to let Ennis owe him money then he was assuming there was going to be further communication between them. But this is before they wrestle and Ennis punches him. When Ennis does that, it's kind of his way of breaking up with him early to make it easier for them to part once they're off the mountain. He has always known that this really is a "one-shot thing" and once they leave Brokeback, that's it. After that I think Jack realizes that this isn't going to go the way he hopes. At some point after that, he takes Ennis's shirt so he'll have something of him to keep. When they say goodbye, he's silently begging with the look on his face for him to say he'll be back here next summer, but you can tell he's kind of lost hope.

"Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?"




by - bing-57 (Tue Jan 24 2006 15:19:50 )   
That extra month would have made a huge difference. Consider that their time on the mountain was snapped off a month early and that just didn't allow them the time to let the relationship come to whatever natural or forced conclusion that it might have gone.

Then, the relationship that they did manage to have was snapped off again 20 years later, without allowing them to come to any real conclusion this time either.

What would Ennis and Jack have done with that extra month? I kind of agree with the idea that Ennis would have slowly started to panic when he thought about going back to his real life. He probably would have tried to break up with Jack just to remove one big complication in his life.




by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 19:31:28 )   
Speaking of "complications," since I started this thread I guess I'm entitled to add a few of those...

I wonder at what point the moment in the "flashback" occurred. If it was just before their abrupt departure (it couldn't have been much earlier, I think), then it's truly sad for them. Ennis may not have been able to hug Jack face-to-face (outside the privacy of the tent) but he clearly was learning to show affection. Couple that with how Jack clung so hard to the memory of this one moment all those years, and there seems no doubt that Jack would have tried his damnedest over that last month to keep Ennis from drifting away.

Maybe he wouldn't have succeeded. But I think he'd have had a few more memories that would never leave him.

Ye gods, I am soooooooo caught up in this story...!



"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx





by - newyearsday (Tue Jan 24 2006 20:32:55 )   
Wow, Rontrigger,

I wonder at what point the moment in the "flashback" occurred. If it was just before their abrupt departure (it couldn't have been much earlier, I think), then it's truly sad for them. Ennis may not have been able to hug Jack face-to-face (outside the privacy of the tent) but he clearly was learning to show affection. Couple that with how Jack clung so hard to the memory of this one moment all those years, and there seems no doubt that Jack would have tried his damnedest over that last month to keep Ennis from drifting away.

I never thought about that. I totally agree that that flashback scene showed more openness and affection from Ennis towards Jack than anything we'd seen from their time on Brokeback up to that point (even if he wasn't able to hold him face to face). It makes you wonder--maybe Ennis still wouldn't have been able to live freely with Jack, but if he was able to have the time to have some pre-regret for the end of all he had shared that summer with Jack, he might have at least re-considered marrying Alma, maybe they could have had more time together and lived nearer to each other than 1400 miles apart.

Speaking of that, it blows me away to think of Jack basically driving half way across the country and back each time he saw Ennis. It'd be almost two days driving each way, just to have three days together (since he tells Lureen, "I'll be back in week"). As somebody said on a long-ago post about how Ennis quit his jobs in the early days to see Jack, if that ain't love, what is?

(btw, I've been away from these boards for two days, hi all! How do I keep up with this??? 15,000 posts added since I last counted late last week. Most movies never break 1000!)




Re: Did the 'lost month' make a difference? (SPOILER?)   
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Hi, NYD.

At least in the later years, with Interstate 25, Jack could have made that trip in one long day. It's actually about 950 miles from Childress to Riverton, not 1400. MapQuest clocks it at 15 hours, 10 minutes, but I'm sure Jack would have "redlined" it on more journeys than just the reunion trip in 1967--hence, a "14-hour" instead of "1400-mile" drive. (I think there's some confusion on that from the fact that Jake faces away from the camera a lot during the "where's my parka" scene.)

While I was verifying this, I started overthinking again...

If Jack left Childress before dawn, he could get to Riverton in the early evening. While Ennis was still married to Alma, Jack obviously had to stay elsewhere (bet that motel saw action in more than that one scene). But when Ennis moved into his trailer by himself...certainly he let Jack stay the night there, right, and they started off for the mountains first thing in the morning?

[SIDEBAR: Anyone right now imagining a hell of a lot more "reunion kisses" than the one we saw--and a lot more "motellish" scenes (prior to the afterglow), taking place in the trailer?]

Folks, you don't think it's remotely possible that Ennis's paranoia was so bad that Jack couldn't stay one night in the trailer every so often? If that scenario had crossed any of the writers' minds, it's hard to imagine Jack not yelling the loudest about that during their last meeting.



"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx




by - newyearsday (Tue Jan 24 2006 22:30:36 )   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 22:32:46
Well, it would be sooo nice to think that they actually got to sleep together (and do a lot of not sleepin'!) on a bed every once in a while, but I have a feeling that Ennis wouldn't have it. So sad....but it did seem that the movie and story never alluded to them being together anywhere BUT "way out in the middle of nowhere."

On your point, I keep thinking about when Jack drove up to see Ennis after the divorce, and how E gets TOTALLY distracted by the white truck driving by way out on the highway. They show this long shot of him looking at the truck and show the truck driving by for several seconds, and Ennis lets THAT take his focus away from Jack, who is basically proposing to him again to live together ("I heard about the divorce, and well, here I am"). I wonder--is Ennis' paranoia about being killed so strong that he's afraid to even be seen talking to Jack?? Is his looking at the truck about that? If so, then we see what an unworkable place he still is in over this situation. And how he couldn't afford to let Jack stay with him. The motel, maybe. We hope.

I also always thought that Ennis wasn't in the trailer until later, like maybe after Jack died.

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:19:34 )   
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by - Brkback (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:00:11 )   
Ennis' paranoia when he sees the truck drive by in the distance struck a chord with me. Before I finally came out, for come illogical reason I was sure that, for example, if I stopped at a gay bar just to check it out, everybody in town would immediately find out I was there. I felt like if I tried to meet a guy, my family and "friends" would be alerted to my deviant behavior. It doesn't make sense, but fear can make you stupid.

Ennis: "And I thought the soup boxes was hard to pack!"




by - bing-57 (Thu Jan 26 2006 08:51:01 )   
Well, reality is somewhere in between the extremes. Dropping by the gay bar probably won't get your face on the local news (most str8s in town probably don't even know where the gay bar is), but if you kiss a guy down at the local mall, everybody in town just might figure it out.

They key is to simply be discrete. Also, be prepared for the day when specific people or "everybody" finds out. Just shrug it off and say, "Yeah, I like guys. So what?"

You might even inject some humor, such as, "You want me to hook you up with a guy?" or "And I never have to put the toilet seat down," or "And we do it while drinking beer and watching football. It's great!"




by - terryhall2 6 days ago (Sun Mar 12 2006 10:25:32 )   
Re:fear when first coming out. Years ago in London, bars weren't open glass fun places like they are now. You had to ring the bell to get in. The embarrassment of this alone makes you wary. One day, a friend walked into the same bar I was in, saw me, froze and terrified,walked out. It was a few minutes before he realised that if I was in there, it should be ok for him to be there too! We both discovered something our families didn't know (then)
I can completely understand Ennis' behaviour but feel so bad for Jack.



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:25:01 )   
I thought Ennis moved into the trailer after the divorce. Isn't that where he was when Jack drove up to see him and the girls were there?

The white truck on the highway IS a good point. Perhaps I was assuming that Jack would always arrive after dark, and that that would reassure Ennis--no one would see them together.

But now that I think about it--if Ennis's paranoia was so all-consuming, how did he end up with Jack at the motel even that one time? Even Ennis must understand that a motel is a public place.

You're probably right that poor Jack DID have to stay somewhere else than Ennis's trailer. And now that I think about it--they always used separate vehicles on the "fishing trips," didn't they? Aw, sorry, guys--this was a royal screwup on my part.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - lnicoll (Wed Jan 25 2006 04:01:35 )   
My thoughts on some of these issues:
I think Jack was in Riverton exactly twice: their reunion and the visit after the divorce. I think they met at their camping site for their fishing trips. (One has to wonder how they made the arrangements with one sentence postcards but that is probably a topic for another thread).

When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." And Ennis sees the white truck. I think both of these things fuel his paranoia about people finding out. Riverton seems to be a small town and I am sure everybody knows each other. Ennis probably recognizes the white truck and is probably thinking, "Is that one of the ten people Jack talked to? Word is going to be all over town by tomorrow morning."

Housing: after the divorce, he was living in some sort of a ramshackle house. Anyone besides me notice the antlers over the door? He moved into the trailer at the end of the movie.



by - jscheib (Wed Jan 25 2006 06:40:48 )   
<<When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." >>

Thanks for mentioning that, lnicoll. I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis.


by - dalemidex (Thu Jan 26 2006 02:02:56 )   
>>I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis. <<

Excellent points, everybody! I think when we get to the point where Ennis askes Jack if he gets the feeling everybody looks at him and "knows", Ennis' worry has really turned to paranoid fear. This fear fuels the rage of the street right after he storms out of Thanksgiving.

The flip side of this is when Ennis goes to Lightening Flat, for the first time he ackowledges with Jack's monther -- nonverbally -- what had gone on. He had to know she knew, and yet he didn't deny or lash out in ange
Re: Did the 'Lost Month' make a difference - (REPOST)   
  by True_Oracle_of_Phoenix   (Wed Jan 17 2007 07:58:51 )   
      
Re: Lost Month - Late February   
by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:21:18 )   
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by - newyearsday (Tue Jan 24 2006 22:30:36 )   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 22:32:46
Well, it would be sooo nice to think that they actually got to sleep together (and do a lot of not sleepin'!) on a bed every once in a while, but I have a feeling that Ennis wouldn't have it. So sad....but it did seem that the movie and story never alluded to them being together anywhere BUT "way out in the middle of nowhere."

On your point, I keep thinking about when Jack drove up to see Ennis after the divorce, and how E gets TOTALLY distracted by the white truck driving by way out on the highway. They show this long shot of him looking at the truck and show the truck driving by for several seconds, and Ennis lets THAT take his focus away from Jack, who is basically proposing to him again to live together ("I heard about the divorce, and well, here I am"). I wonder--is Ennis' paranoia about being killed so strong that he's afraid to even be seen talking to Jack?? Is his looking at the truck about that? If so, then we see what an unworkable place he still is in over this situation. And how he couldn't afford to let Jack stay with him. The motel, maybe. We hope.

I also always thought that Ennis wasn't in the trailer until later, like maybe after Jack died.





by - Brkback (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:00:11 )   
Ennis' paranoia when he sees the truck drive by in the distance struck a chord with me. Before I finally came out, for come illogical reason I was sure that, for example, if I stopped at a gay bar just to check it out, everybody in town would immediately find out I was there. I felt like if I tried to meet a guy, my family and "friends" would be alerted to my deviant behavior. It doesn't make sense, but fear can make you stupid.

Ennis: "And I thought the soup boxes was hard to pack!"




by - bing-57 (Thu Jan 26 2006 08:51:01 )   
Well, reality is somewhere in between the extremes. Dropping by the gay bar probably won't get your face on the local news (most str8s in town probably don't even know where the gay bar is), but if you kiss a guy down at the local mall, everybody in town just might figure it out.

They key is to simply be discrete. Also, be prepared for the day when specific people or "everybody" finds out. Just shrug it off and say, "Yeah, I like guys. So what?"

You might even inject some humor, such as, "You want me to hook you up with a guy?" or "And I never have to put the toilet seat down," or "And we do it while drinking beer and watching football. It's great!"




by - terryhall2 6 days ago (Sun Mar 12 2006 10:25:32 )   
Re:fear when first coming out. Years ago in London, bars weren't open glass fun places like they are now. You had to ring the bell to get in. The embarrassment of this alone makes you wary. One day, a friend walked into the same bar I was in, saw me, froze and terrified,walked out. It was a few minutes before he realised that if I was in there, it should be ok for him to be there too! We both discovered something our families didn't know (then)
I can completely understand Ennis' behaviour but feel so bad for Jack.



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:25:01 )   
I thought Ennis moved into the trailer after the divorce. Isn't that where he was when Jack drove up to see him and the girls were there?

The white truck on the highway IS a good point. Perhaps I was assuming that Jack would always arrive after dark, and that that would reassure Ennis--no one would see them together.

But now that I think about it--if Ennis's paranoia was so all-consuming, how did he end up with Jack at the motel even that one time? Even Ennis must understand that a motel is a public place.

You're probably right that poor Jack DID have to stay somewhere else than Ennis's trailer. And now that I think about it--they always used separate vehicles on the "fishing trips," didn't they? Aw, sorry, guys--this was a royal screwup on my part.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - lnicoll (Wed Jan 25 2006 04:01:35 )   
My thoughts on some of these issues:
I think Jack was in Riverton exactly twice: their reunion and the visit after the divorce. I think they met at their camping site for their fishing trips. (One has to wonder how they made the arrangements with one sentence postcards but that is probably a topic for another thread).

When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." And Ennis sees the white truck. I think both of these things fuel his paranoia about people finding out. Riverton seems to be a small town and I am sure everybody knows each other. Ennis probably recognizes the white truck and is probably thinking, "Is that one of the ten people Jack talked to? Word is going to be all over town by tomorrow morning."

Housing: after the divorce, he was living in some sort of a ramshackle house. Anyone besides me notice the antlers over the door? He moved into the trailer at the end of the movie.



by - jscheib (Wed Jan 25 2006 06:40:48 )   
<<When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." >>

Thanks for mentioning that, lnicoll. I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis.


by - dalemidex (Thu Jan 26 2006 02:02:56 )   
>>I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis. <<

Excellent points, everybody! I think when we get to the point where Ennis askes Jack if he gets the feeling everybody looks at him and "knows", Ennis' worry has really turned to paranoid fear. This fear fuels the rage of the street right after he storms out of Thanksgiving.

The flip side of this is when Ennis goes to Lightening Flat, for the first time he ackowledges with Jack's monther -- nonverbally -- what had gone on. He had to know she knew, and yet he didn't deny or lash out in anger. We've seen Ennis mix anger with every strong emotion, and even have anger come out in lieu of the real emotion. So anger coming out at the Twist homestead would have hardly surprised me. (Would have made for a very different scene!) But he did not, and it this way he ackowledged his love for Jack in a way he never did when Jack was alive.

All so very sad...






by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 15:07:01 )   
Hi Dale!

I agree, whatever Ennis felt inside....the horrible experience of his youth which stayed in his memory....his nervous glancing around before the big passionate reunion kiss.......it was all INSIDE him and let's say, under control.....UNTIL Alma confronted him....that's when it broke out....the confirmation that she knew.....meant to Ennis that others knew too...did Alma tell Monroe? Did Alma tell the girls? Did Alma tell her family and friends and neighbors?.....then all this negative intensity erupts in the street fight.....BUT then it is ENNIS who gets the tar kicked out of him....Ennis did not win that fight...and Ennis got hurt pretty badly with that guy kicking him.....this is what transforms his internal and controlled hidden fear into a growing external paranoia.

I don't approve of physical violence as a means to an end, however had Ennis won that fight with that truck driver....I feel he might have regained some of his internal strength and some control of his fear again.

But what did happen instead is this: Ennis believes it is a given that homos once found out will be hurt and killed. Ennis learns he has been found out when Alma confronts him. Ennis is in a rage of anger and panic too and he goes out to drink but gets beat up. So what he feared would happen, does or nearly does happen. He doesn't actually die and the person beating him isn't doing it because he thinks Ennis is queer, but for Ennis I think it's the same result.

Ennis believes: Secret gets out, I get hurt.

Which fits in later with Jack's death.....is it Ennis's imagination, or his intuitive realization of the truth he was certain would happen if either of their secrets became known?

Jack, we the audience know, was much less concerned with hiding that secret. Did Ennis likewise form this same opinion of Jack? That Jack was less concerned and so more reckless in letting the secret out? Jack's suggestions of having a life together could be read by Ennis that Jack was not so concerned with hiding his secret. So in the end when he learns of Jack's death, in spite of the story he his hearing, or because he recognizes it as a "story", he knows and visualizes the truth.


Sorry this is such a rambling post bumping in to so many points. But I'll continue!

As to your point about Ennis acknowledging his feelings to Jack's Mom, I agree. They most definitely have a communication with each other that here was THE important person in Jack's life. And he communicates that to her. This is why what follows happens.

When I saw the film the last time, I saw some subtle action I had not recognized before. When Jack's Mom comes near him and places her hand on Ennis's shoulder and delivers her statement about having kept the room the same as when he was a boy....(19 year olds ARE boys especially to their Moms)....then Jack's Mom says to Ennis, You are welcome to go up...if you want. and while she is saying the last part she moves her hand twice, as to PUSH him. At first it looked to me like a tap, but this last time I saw the film I saw that it was a nudging, a prodding to do what she was suggesting. Which of course means she was telling Ennis to go up and get those shirts she knew were there and which she knew would mean so much to Ennis as they had meant so much to Jack.

Jack in Maine





At least slightly off topic   
by - Rontrigger (Wed Jan 25 2006 23:27:22 )   
Even at 46, I must be naive, but...

Is it really so suspicious for a man to look up another man? Doesn't any guy out there have longtime male friends?

I remember about 15 years ago I had a brief relationship of sorts with this guy and we called it quits, but we remained friends. It gets foggy in the winter where I live, and I asked one night if I could flop on his couch. He said no way, his girlfriend was coming over first thing in the morning.

"So what?" I said. "I'll be on the couch. You'll be in your room." She'd never met me, apparently did not know her man had bisexual tendencies--but he still wouldn't hear of it. I had to drive sloooooowly home in the fog.

I knew another guy who never told his family he had ANY male friends, for fear of his secret getting out. This totally blew me away.

Am I missing something here?

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx





by - jscheib (Thu Jan 26 2006 06:13:10 )   
<<Even at 46, I must be naive, but...
Is it really so suspicious for a man to look up another man? Doesn't any guy out there have longtime male friends? >>

Rontrigger,
If you were referencing my post, above, about what Ennis would think when he realized Jack was asking about him all over town, I would agree, no, it isn't that suspicious. But I was just trying to think from Ennis's perspective, how paranoid he becomes that people will "know" about him and Jack--and there's Jack, asking all over town where to find him.
BTW, I'm 47.
jscheib





by - Rontrigger (Thu Jan 26 2006 22:54:51 )   
Ah, OK, thanks, jscheib. I wasn't sure if this was just another example of Ennis's paranoia or if I've been totally blind to something all my life.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx




by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 15:17:03 )   
Rontrigger, I'm a little confused about what you are actually asking in this post, and maybe missed your point, but in this post but it seems to me you have answered your own question.

On the topic...when you are dealing with closeted, or fearful, or paranoiac, minds...it is a given to them that EVERYONE WILL KNOW if such and such should happen. And if the fear is to be found out as having homosexual thoughts, actions, desires, or experiences, then it follows that you do NOT EVER want anyone to see you with THAT person or anyone who could remotely be considered THAT person, otherwise..your secret is out. THEY will KNOW!

As illogical as it is, and your own experience points out how illogical it is...that's what paranoia is: irrational fear of something imagined in the face of the current reality or circumstances of the present situation which don't support the imagined result.

Jack in Maine




by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 14:34:15 )   
Hehheh, Rontrigger, I LOVE your thinking and postulating!

But....I'm sorry to say I am one who thinks that.....except for the first time and the post-divorce time......they always MET at their rendezvous spot.

I don't believe that motel DID see any other action from our guys. I WANT them to have had more times together their, but I don't think they did.

Between Ennis's marriage, his quitting jobs, later his growing paranoia, I'm really sorry to say, I think it worked best for HIM (Ennis) if he and Jack only met at the rendezvous spot..Brokeback Mountain. At one point I had wondered if they met elsewhere (indoors or outdoors) but in the big tragic climax scene for the two, Jack shouts that all they have is Brokeback. So I think that means that's where they always went and they never went anywhere else.

The white pickup....has implications.

Jack in Maine






by - terryhall2 6 days ago (Sun Mar 12 2006 10:21:28 )   
If you think about it, Ennis never kept Jack that much up to date with where he was living. Jack had to do all the searching (had to ask 10 people in Riverton where you had moved to) - and all the travelling. If there was any doubt that Jack loved Ennis, this removes it all.

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:26:02 )   
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by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 14:21:10 )   
Rontrigger,
It's an interesting question to try to infer when that event, later shown in Jack's memory, actually happened in the time sequence of their Summer. To me, from the content of the flashback, it's obviously "well into" the relationship some appreciable time. And contrary to your thought that maybe Ennis is still hesitant to hug Jack face to face outside the tent, I feel Ennis shows complete calm and comforting ease when giving Jack that tender goodbye hug.

Assume this for example:
Time has passed....4 weeks? 6 weeks? All is going along beautifully, the boys grow more in love, more confident of each other's feelings, more peaceful in their souls, more happy.......both, if thinking about the future at all (the future of this Summer) are thinking as 19 year olds would, namely that they still had a "long" time left before they had to consider any changes. And both boys are still doing the work they were hired to do, one going off to sleep near the sheep, the other minding the base camp.

One evening after supper and spending time together, while Ennis is packing up his horse, Jack is waiting by the fire...tired and contented, peaceful and feeling loved....and Ennis comes and hugs him good bye and tells him he's asleep on his feet so go to bed and rest............THEN THE NEXT DAY, "A" comes up and disrupts everything.

And so, that last tender time together before their world was destroyed, would naturally stick in Jack's mind.......AND in Ennis's mind too. So that when 4 years later, Jack and Ennis finally do see each other again.....it is THAT memory, the memory of their last blissful time together which is the fuel which fires their intense reunion passion.


Connected to these ideas of time sequences etc., but with a totally different focus, I wondered how they did handle the daily schedule once they had become intimate.
Do they separate each night? Every night?...do sometimes they both go to guard the sheep?...does Jack ride up to spend parts of the day with Ennis?


Again, I say, it is a testament to a great work that we can discuss these characters as if they lived and still live!

Jack in Maine





by - snuffle007 (Thu Jan 26 2006 06:17:38 )   
I know what you mean. I feel that if they had been given more time together and really prepared for the end then I feel they may very well have ended up living together.

Ennis was really badly effected by the sudden end of their time, expressing it as anger over "lost pay" when you know deep down that isn't what he is angry about. He wanted to have more time with Jack and is really angry that he is losing that time.

I wish that that time hadn't been lost. Maybe they both would've ended up happy together!! (hey I can dream can't I??!!)


"I wish I knew how to quit you" Jack Twist





by - Rontrigger (Thu Jan 26 2006 23:12:17 )   
You sure can, Snuffle.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx






by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 09:50:19 )   
Rontrigger,
(I have been absent from this board for a few days)

Before I read any other posts in this thread I have to tell you that I appreciate your analysis and suggestions.

(I also have to say that I find it fascinating and wonderful that so many here can seriously and genuinely, limiting ourselves to the movie content, interpret behaviour and suggest motives and alternative sequences and chains of event, which could result in possibly different end scenarios in these two characters lives! It's marvelous. Proulx and Lee certainly created a couple of real people!)

You are very right in so many ways in your analysis. Ennis is CLEARLY startled and disturbed by the sudden change. And it was not just a few days or a week, but a full month that he was being shorted. And naturally the money was a consideration, but to feel you had another month to share privately, of friendship and love, and to suddenly find it taken away is a trauma. You say he clearly did not like surprises and I would agree, because so much of his life was dictated and formed by loneliness and fear. A lonely person would be devastated to suddenly learn he will be separated from his recently found comfort (as you say, friendship, not just love and sex). And a fearful person NEVER wants change. The only safety and comfort a fearful person has is in maintaining the status quo; change equals more fear.

Ennis's snap at Jack's offer of a money loan, while no doubt motivated by generosity and kindness, can be interpreted on it's surface as an insult to Ennis's capability of providing for himself, which is how Ennis responds to it. But there is more there behind that response. When Ennis comes to camp Jack is rather matter of fact in telling Ennis about A's order to break camp and bring the sheep down. Jack does not seem upset and doesn't FIRST express to Ennis his sadness or disappointment about this sudden change in the circumstances of their relationship. So when Jack offers money it only compounds this matter of fact attitude he seems to have, and implies to Ennis that the pending separation is not such a big deal to Jack as it is to Ennis.

Then Ennis goes off by himself, to grieve, to pout, and I'm sure is wracked with pain and sadness and probably LOTS of anger....towards life, towards A, and probably (just below the surface) towards Jack for not seeming as upset, as he (Ennis) is feeling).

When Jack comes with the lasso, it is at first sweet and gentle and caring (Come on cowboy, time to go), and Ennis gets up as if he's resigned to fate. But as you say, when Jack's playfulness AGAIN KNOCKS ENNIS OFF HIS FEET....now physically (after his emotional knock), all his anger and resentment of the circumstances come out in physical violence. At first Jack is playful, and completely misses Ennis's mood and then BANG it turns from play to violence.

That was one of the MOST accurate and true scenes in the film I thought! The two boys were NOT on the same page, as the saying goes, and that created the explosive clash.

Rontrigger, then you say:
And what would have been different? No bloody shirts. No dry heaves for Ennis (at least for a while). Jack, I think, would have offered him a ride to Riverton--even if it were out of the way, which it may have been.

OH yes, this is true. And there would have been time for Jack to reassure Ennis of his feelings and to possibly plan, if not a life together, then at least a next meeting. The slower re-entry into society may have given Ennis a bit more hope, a bit more assurance, a bit less fear, and a bit more possibility of risking a life together.

Rontrigger, you say:
And would he have been successful? I imagine Ennis taking Jack up on that ride, and Jack saying, "I guess I'll be heading to Lightning Flat. Why don't you come with me?"

And of course, since the boys found themselves with an unexpected free month, Ennis would definitely have gone with Jack, even if he still planned at that point to come back later to Riverton to marry Alma.

Rontrigger, you say:
Of course, a lot would depend on whether Ennis, by then, would have reconsidered marrying Alma so soon. I could see Jack, with an additional three or four weeks, trying to plant seeds of doubt in Ennis's mind.

I'd rather put it this way (since this is our communal fantasy on providing a happier life for two people we love!):
Having the month together, especially down off Brokeback would have given the boys a chance to expand their relationship because they would share and experience more and different events, situations, and other people together. From spending this time together, they would both naturally want to stay together and so Jack would NOT have to plant seeds of doubt in Ennis's mind about marrying Alma, but the two would naturally see the alternative to separating, and so Ennis himself would realize he couldn't and didn't want to marry Alma (by the end of this projected month together.) and even if Ennis's fear still kept him from considering the idea of actually living and ranching up together, they likely could have had lives, ostensibly separate, but together much of the time. Each in his own job somewhere and coming together at some other neutral place. Yes this sounds like closeted behaviour, but given the circumstances of the place and time, it would still have been a happier alternative compromise at a continued life together.

Not to say that Jack loved Ennis any less then Ennis loved Jack, but their underlying needs and personalities motivated them differently. Jack was much more easy-going. Ennis had said he was going to marry Alma. Jack accepted that. Jack had been on Brokeback the Summer before and naturally had it in mind that he likely would come again next Summer, and he did. What would have happened if Ennis Del Mar had shown up that next Summer? (Well let's skip the nasty fact of A's denouncement, for this fantasy, and imagine another Brokeback Summer of Love for the two boys!)

Great thread.

Jack in Maine




by - Rontrigger (Sat Jan 28 2006 00:53:01 )   
"And of course, since the boys found themselves with an unexpected free month, Ennis would definitely have gone with Jack, even if he still planned at that point to come back later to Riverton to marry Alma."

Well, they actually DID have the unexpected free month; if they hadn't been let go, they'd have left Brokeback in September, not August. I don't know if this makes any difference in your agreement with my fantasy, but I hope not.

<Sigh> Jack and Ennis, together in Lightning Flat in 1963...imagine the possibilities.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx





by - chibidesign (Sat Jan 28 2006 02:37:22 )   
This is a great thread! There was another one a while back that imagined the guys figuring no one was expecting them for another month, getting paid and turning right around and going back.
But from personal experience (an isolated duty station, a beautiful nurse, an extra couple of weeks getting to know her a whole lot better due to extreme weather when no planes could land), an extra month might have made their parting even more gut-wrenching but no less inevitable: they have four more weeks all alone together, their attachment grows even stronger, Ennis in particular really starts to let his guard down, but at the end of it they still have to come down from the mountain.
Dellaluvia had an interesting point that knowing the end was in sight they might have started to mentally distance themselves from each other in preparation for it, but I think that's the kind of mental discipline that comes with experience. These are two young guys, neither of them very introspective, Jack marginally more so than Ennis, in the the throes of first love. Also, being horny 19-year-olds (hey, it wasn't so long ago I can't remember!) going from famine to feast, as it were, once they couldn't ignore the clock running down anymore, they might have gotten more frantic, taking bigger risks. Toward the end, they would have probably blown off Aguirre's sleep-with-the-sheep directive altogether, with Ennis spending every night in the tent, breakfast and supper stretching out for hours, oblivious to the coyotes' all-you-can-eat buffet going on up in the pasture. I may have an eye for the ladies, but I also have one for the gentlemen, and no offense to the guys here but there's nothing dumber than a man thinking with his little head. That, combined with the fact when you're 19, time doesn't have the urgency it does when you're 35, makes me think the end would have caught them with their pants down in both senses, whether it fell in August or September. The wrestling bout that turns into a fight might have been even more intense--Ennis is a guy who has a hard time dealing with powerful emotions and when he's forced to, time and again he reverts to the one he's most comfortable with, anger, and its physical expression, violence.
It's hard to guess if they would have made any tentative plans for them to be together. When they came off the mountain, regardless of the month, it was still going to be 1963 in Wyoming, and I think they would quite literally have felt the weight of being at a lower elevation where the air is thicker.
In the film, where they say their goodbyes at Jack's truck, there's a blink-and-you missed-it moment: right after Ennis says "Well, I guess I'll see you around," and Jack replies, "Yeah," and looks down for a second, trying to control his face. He looks back up at Ennis and there's a pause of about three seconds where it's as if they'e both waiting for the other to say something, but neither of them has the courage to say what he feels, and the moment passes.
It's a nice alternative to imagine Jack driving Ennis to Riverton to break the bad news to Alma (with Jack in the truck with the passenger door open, one foot on the clutch ready to pop it in gear and peel out of there) and then the two of them driving off together to Lightning Flat to introduce Ennis to the folks and going on to lick that damn ranch into shape. But I think that was a dream that Jack spun out slowly to himself over that first winter away from Ennis after Brokeback, and even after the heat of their reunion, he's shy about it, mentioning it tentatively, "what if you an me had a little cow and calf operation?", never putting flesh on the bones over the course of twenty years, leaving Ennis to find out too late that he had something specific in mind.
With regard to the thread-within-a-thread, I think Ennis's paranoia ran so deep, he would never bring Jack anywhere near his day-to-day life. That kiss on the stairwell and then spending the night with Jack at a motel so close by (in the short story, Proulx writes that they leave the apartment and including a trip to the liquor store, "twenty minutes later...were in the Motel Siesta jouncing a bed.") were lapses that Ennis doesn't plan to repeat, especially when Jack starts with what to Ennis is crazy talk about running away together.The way Ennis's mind works, there's no way in hell he'd have Jack (and his recognizable truck and its out-of-state plates)staying at his place, especially after his asking about Ennis all over town, or later on in his trailer (I also assumed the trailer was a post-Jack development, since Alma Jr is already ninteen, you see him putting the numbers on the mailbox sometime early in the next year). In a small community like that, or on a ranch with other hands about, the risk, real or imaginary, is something unthinkable for Ennis.


Trespassers will be shot.
Survivors will be shot again.





by - delalluvia (Sat Jan 28 2006 09:31:07 )   
Excellent post chibidesign

I may have an eye for the ladies, but I also have one for the gentlemen, and no offense to the guys here but there's nothing dumber than a man thinking with his little head.

LOL!

Team Jolie





by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Jan 28 2006 10:15:48 )   
UPDATED Sat Jan 28 2006 10:16:30
Great post! I especially liked
Toward the end, they would have probably blown off Aguirre's sleep-with-the-sheep directive altogether, with Ennis spending every night in the tent, breakfast and supper stretching out for hours, oblivious to the coyotes' all-you-can-eat buffet going on up in the pasture.

It made me laugh. Not that a sheep slaughter by the coyotes would be funny, but just love how you put that.

Also posting just to BUMP this thread, because it is a great thread, as well as being truly original. Can't think of a thread in some time that brought up something completely new, as this one did. Kudos to the original poster.





by - Jack_Me (Sat Jan 28 2006 09:48:46 )   

No Rontrigger, it doesn't make any difference in my agreement with your fantasy, because you took my comment out of the context it was written in.

I belive you started by imagining an extra month together and then went on to describe the positive possibilities that could have generated, with NO bloody shirts, etc. and I was just picking up that if they hadn't had the SUDDEN departure thrust on them, they might not have had the fist fight, and so come down the mountain together happy and peaceful, and THEN since they had the unexpected extra month......etc.

Yeah....Jack and Ennis together in Lightning Flat in 1963.....happy together or dealing with an angry unpleasant you-know-who.........
But even if that, they would have been together, and could have gone off somewhere else......

Nice fantasy.

Jack in Maine




by - Rontrigger (Sun Jan 29 2006 02:57:44 )   
Ah, OK...must have misread that comment. (Eyes glaze over after many hours here.)

Thank you for appreciating the fantasy. I made the mistake of checking out some Fanfiction postings--a mistake because, though generally very well-written, they depressed me to no end. (One of them imagines Jack's last thoughts as he lay dying [pursuant to the murder theory], which include his sadness that his killers virtually destroyed his beloved hat--this turned me into a blithering idiot for a while.) I prefer to pursue happier scenarios here.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx




by - Rontrigger (Sat Jan 28 2006 01:22:59 )   

Jack, I hope this single post will suffice to thank you for all the replies to my earlier ones. I thoroughly enjoy all the discussion and all the revelations it has helped me to have.

This movie will stay with me, and I'm sure pretty much all of us, forever.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx

[TOoP/Bruce]

by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:28:08 )   
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by - Jack_Me (Sat Jan 28 2006 09:57:29 )   
Rontrigger, it is I who thank YOU for beginning an interesting discussion.

I too enjoy all the genuine discussion and the revelations which that brings about different aspects of these wonderful characters.

It is certainly a wonderful movie and will be a classic in the history of film in general and of gay cinema. Let us hope Heath Ledger is both nominated and wins for Best Actor....
Because of a case such as this movie, where you can't have both Heath and Jake win the single Oscar for Best Actor, if there is not already one, there should be an Oscar for Best Ensemble Acting to recognize such great collaborations as existed in this movie. Some may say that is what Best Picture is, but that category entails (or should) more than just the acting.

Jack in Maine




by - Flickfan-3 (Sun Feb 5 2006 07:53:39 )   
Ron--this is older thread but wanted to ask question about importance of Augutst

does anyone know if August was the month (for sure) that Jack died---the implication I get from the phone conversation is that Jack has been dead a while because she said they sent the ashes up to his folks...
I have been reading the threads for a while and don't think I have ever seen anyone give the definite month that Jack's death occurs
I seems to me that if Jack died in August when he and Ennis should have been on another reunion vacation then Ennis would really feel guilt about not being there for him--even more than he does anyway...
and idea what month is a legitimate date for the death???

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."




by - valerie_lp (Sun Feb 5 2006 12:07:21 )   

Someone way up at the beginning of the thread pointed out that Ennis is angry at Jack's offhanded way of telling him it's their last day together. If he'd held Ennis and said, "God, I can't believe it, I really wish we had more time together, but Aguirre came up here today and said..." he might have handled it better, but he's far more hurt by Jack's "oh well, want some money?" manner. I noticed on my 3rd viewing that as they're trying to separate the sheep, Ennis says, "What if we wanna work for him again next summer,
Re: Lost Month - Repost   
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 03:39:13 )   
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I did remember this one, if not mistaken it was also earlier listed on Joyce's summary thread. I thought the posts got even upto APR

I do remember posting that they didn't really lost any 'month' as should they have already developed enough chemistry and that should they stay longer, they may risk Aguirre's wrath lol

But then, I realised that they actually 'lost' all those 20 years. Unspoken and unfulfilled love. Both self-sacrificing and 'selfish' love
Never enough time, never enough...
Re: Lost Month - Repost   
by - joyce023 18 hours ago (Wed May 17 2006 10:03:21 )   
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WOW! Very much appreciated to bring it back jshane2002! Well done!
It is originally entitled: "Did the 'lost month' make a difference?"