Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > IMDb Remarkable Writings Rewound

Did the lost month make a difference? -- by jshane2002

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TOoP/Bruce:
by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:19:34 )   
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by - Brkback (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:00:11 )   
Ennis' paranoia when he sees the truck drive by in the distance struck a chord with me. Before I finally came out, for come illogical reason I was sure that, for example, if I stopped at a gay bar just to check it out, everybody in town would immediately find out I was there. I felt like if I tried to meet a guy, my family and "friends" would be alerted to my deviant behavior. It doesn't make sense, but fear can make you stupid.

Ennis: "And I thought the soup boxes was hard to pack!"




by - bing-57 (Thu Jan 26 2006 08:51:01 )   
Well, reality is somewhere in between the extremes. Dropping by the gay bar probably won't get your face on the local news (most str8s in town probably don't even know where the gay bar is), but if you kiss a guy down at the local mall, everybody in town just might figure it out.

They key is to simply be discrete. Also, be prepared for the day when specific people or "everybody" finds out. Just shrug it off and say, "Yeah, I like guys. So what?"

You might even inject some humor, such as, "You want me to hook you up with a guy?" or "And I never have to put the toilet seat down," or "And we do it while drinking beer and watching football. It's great!"




by - terryhall2 6 days ago (Sun Mar 12 2006 10:25:32 )   
Re:fear when first coming out. Years ago in London, bars weren't open glass fun places like they are now. You had to ring the bell to get in. The embarrassment of this alone makes you wary. One day, a friend walked into the same bar I was in, saw me, froze and terrified,walked out. It was a few minutes before he realised that if I was in there, it should be ok for him to be there too! We both discovered something our families didn't know (then)
I can completely understand Ennis' behaviour but feel so bad for Jack.



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:25:01 )   
I thought Ennis moved into the trailer after the divorce. Isn't that where he was when Jack drove up to see him and the girls were there?

The white truck on the highway IS a good point. Perhaps I was assuming that Jack would always arrive after dark, and that that would reassure Ennis--no one would see them together.

But now that I think about it--if Ennis's paranoia was so all-consuming, how did he end up with Jack at the motel even that one time? Even Ennis must understand that a motel is a public place.

You're probably right that poor Jack DID have to stay somewhere else than Ennis's trailer. And now that I think about it--they always used separate vehicles on the "fishing trips," didn't they? Aw, sorry, guys--this was a royal screwup on my part.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - lnicoll (Wed Jan 25 2006 04:01:35 )   
My thoughts on some of these issues:
I think Jack was in Riverton exactly twice: their reunion and the visit after the divorce. I think they met at their camping site for their fishing trips. (One has to wonder how they made the arrangements with one sentence postcards but that is probably a topic for another thread).

When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." And Ennis sees the white truck. I think both of these things fuel his paranoia about people finding out. Riverton seems to be a small town and I am sure everybody knows each other. Ennis probably recognizes the white truck and is probably thinking, "Is that one of the ten people Jack talked to? Word is going to be all over town by tomorrow morning."

Housing: after the divorce, he was living in some sort of a ramshackle house. Anyone besides me notice the antlers over the door? He moved into the trailer at the end of the movie.



by - jscheib (Wed Jan 25 2006 06:40:48 )   
<<When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." >>

Thanks for mentioning that, lnicoll. I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis.


by - dalemidex (Thu Jan 26 2006 02:02:56 )   
>>I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis. <<

Excellent points, everybody! I think when we get to the point where Ennis askes Jack if he gets the feeling everybody looks at him and "knows", Ennis' worry has really turned to paranoid fear. This fear fuels the rage of the street right after he storms out of Thanksgiving.

The flip side of this is when Ennis goes to Lightening Flat, for the first time he ackowledges with Jack's monther -- nonverbally -- what had gone on. He had to know she knew, and yet he didn't deny or lash out in ange
Re: Did the 'Lost Month' make a difference - (REPOST)   
  by True_Oracle_of_Phoenix   (Wed Jan 17 2007 07:58:51 )   
      
Re: Lost Month - Late February   
by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:21:18 )   
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by - newyearsday (Tue Jan 24 2006 22:30:36 )   
UPDATED Tue Jan 24 2006 22:32:46
Well, it would be sooo nice to think that they actually got to sleep together (and do a lot of not sleepin'!) on a bed every once in a while, but I have a feeling that Ennis wouldn't have it. So sad....but it did seem that the movie and story never alluded to them being together anywhere BUT "way out in the middle of nowhere."

On your point, I keep thinking about when Jack drove up to see Ennis after the divorce, and how E gets TOTALLY distracted by the white truck driving by way out on the highway. They show this long shot of him looking at the truck and show the truck driving by for several seconds, and Ennis lets THAT take his focus away from Jack, who is basically proposing to him again to live together ("I heard about the divorce, and well, here I am"). I wonder--is Ennis' paranoia about being killed so strong that he's afraid to even be seen talking to Jack?? Is his looking at the truck about that? If so, then we see what an unworkable place he still is in over this situation. And how he couldn't afford to let Jack stay with him. The motel, maybe. We hope.

I also always thought that Ennis wasn't in the trailer until later, like maybe after Jack died.





by - Brkback (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:00:11 )   
Ennis' paranoia when he sees the truck drive by in the distance struck a chord with me. Before I finally came out, for come illogical reason I was sure that, for example, if I stopped at a gay bar just to check it out, everybody in town would immediately find out I was there. I felt like if I tried to meet a guy, my family and "friends" would be alerted to my deviant behavior. It doesn't make sense, but fear can make you stupid.

Ennis: "And I thought the soup boxes was hard to pack!"




by - bing-57 (Thu Jan 26 2006 08:51:01 )   
Well, reality is somewhere in between the extremes. Dropping by the gay bar probably won't get your face on the local news (most str8s in town probably don't even know where the gay bar is), but if you kiss a guy down at the local mall, everybody in town just might figure it out.

They key is to simply be discrete. Also, be prepared for the day when specific people or "everybody" finds out. Just shrug it off and say, "Yeah, I like guys. So what?"

You might even inject some humor, such as, "You want me to hook you up with a guy?" or "And I never have to put the toilet seat down," or "And we do it while drinking beer and watching football. It's great!"




by - terryhall2 6 days ago (Sun Mar 12 2006 10:25:32 )   
Re:fear when first coming out. Years ago in London, bars weren't open glass fun places like they are now. You had to ring the bell to get in. The embarrassment of this alone makes you wary. One day, a friend walked into the same bar I was in, saw me, froze and terrified,walked out. It was a few minutes before he realised that if I was in there, it should be ok for him to be there too! We both discovered something our families didn't know (then)
I can completely understand Ennis' behaviour but feel so bad for Jack.



by - Rontrigger (Tue Jan 24 2006 23:25:01 )   
I thought Ennis moved into the trailer after the divorce. Isn't that where he was when Jack drove up to see him and the girls were there?

The white truck on the highway IS a good point. Perhaps I was assuming that Jack would always arrive after dark, and that that would reassure Ennis--no one would see them together.

But now that I think about it--if Ennis's paranoia was so all-consuming, how did he end up with Jack at the motel even that one time? Even Ennis must understand that a motel is a public place.

You're probably right that poor Jack DID have to stay somewhere else than Ennis's trailer. And now that I think about it--they always used separate vehicles on the "fishing trips," didn't they? Aw, sorry, guys--this was a royal screwup on my part.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx



by - lnicoll (Wed Jan 25 2006 04:01:35 )   
My thoughts on some of these issues:
I think Jack was in Riverton exactly twice: their reunion and the visit after the divorce. I think they met at their camping site for their fishing trips. (One has to wonder how they made the arrangements with one sentence postcards but that is probably a topic for another thread).

When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." And Ennis sees the white truck. I think both of these things fuel his paranoia about people finding out. Riverton seems to be a small town and I am sure everybody knows each other. Ennis probably recognizes the white truck and is probably thinking, "Is that one of the ten people Jack talked to? Word is going to be all over town by tomorrow morning."

Housing: after the divorce, he was living in some sort of a ramshackle house. Anyone besides me notice the antlers over the door? He moved into the trailer at the end of the movie.



by - jscheib (Wed Jan 25 2006 06:40:48 )   
<<When Jack arrives after the divorce, remember he says, "I had to ask about ten different people in Riverton where you were living." >>

Thanks for mentioning that, lnicoll. I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis.


by - dalemidex (Thu Jan 26 2006 02:02:56 )   
>>I've wondered what Ennis would have thought, after Jack drove away, and he had time to absorb that Jack had been asking people all over Riverton where to find Ennis. <<

Excellent points, everybody! I think when we get to the point where Ennis askes Jack if he gets the feeling everybody looks at him and "knows", Ennis' worry has really turned to paranoid fear. This fear fuels the rage of the street right after he storms out of Thanksgiving.

The flip side of this is when Ennis goes to Lightening Flat, for the first time he ackowledges with Jack's monther -- nonverbally -- what had gone on. He had to know she knew, and yet he didn't deny or lash out in anger. We've seen Ennis mix anger with every strong emotion, and even have anger come out in lieu of the real emotion. So anger coming out at the Twist homestead would have hardly surprised me. (Would have made for a very different scene!) But he did not, and it this way he ackowledged his love for Jack in a way he never did when Jack was alive.

All so very sad...






by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 15:07:01 )   
Hi Dale!

I agree, whatever Ennis felt inside....the horrible experience of his youth which stayed in his memory....his nervous glancing around before the big passionate reunion kiss.......it was all INSIDE him and let's say, under control.....UNTIL Alma confronted him....that's when it broke out....the confirmation that she knew.....meant to Ennis that others knew too...did Alma tell Monroe? Did Alma tell the girls? Did Alma tell her family and friends and neighbors?.....then all this negative intensity erupts in the street fight.....BUT then it is ENNIS who gets the tar kicked out of him....Ennis did not win that fight...and Ennis got hurt pretty badly with that guy kicking him.....this is what transforms his internal and controlled hidden fear into a growing external paranoia.

I don't approve of physical violence as a means to an end, however had Ennis won that fight with that truck driver....I feel he might have regained some of his internal strength and some control of his fear again.

But what did happen instead is this: Ennis believes it is a given that homos once found out will be hurt and killed. Ennis learns he has been found out when Alma confronts him. Ennis is in a rage of anger and panic too and he goes out to drink but gets beat up. So what he feared would happen, does or nearly does happen. He doesn't actually die and the person beating him isn't doing it because he thinks Ennis is queer, but for Ennis I think it's the same result.

Ennis believes: Secret gets out, I get hurt.

Which fits in later with Jack's death.....is it Ennis's imagination, or his intuitive realization of the truth he was certain would happen if either of their secrets became known?

Jack, we the audience know, was much less concerned with hiding that secret. Did Ennis likewise form this same opinion of Jack? That Jack was less concerned and so more reckless in letting the secret out? Jack's suggestions of having a life together could be read by Ennis that Jack was not so concerned with hiding his secret. So in the end when he learns of Jack's death, in spite of the story he his hearing, or because he recognizes it as a "story", he knows and visualizes the truth.


Sorry this is such a rambling post bumping in to so many points. But I'll continue!

As to your point about Ennis acknowledging his feelings to Jack's Mom, I agree. They most definitely have a communication with each other that here was THE important person in Jack's life. And he communicates that to her. This is why what follows happens.

When I saw the film the last time, I saw some subtle action I had not recognized before. When Jack's Mom comes near him and places her hand on Ennis's shoulder and delivers her statement about having kept the room the same as when he was a boy....(19 year olds ARE boys especially to their Moms)....then Jack's Mom says to Ennis, You are welcome to go up...if you want. and while she is saying the last part she moves her hand twice, as to PUSH him. At first it looked to me like a tap, but this last time I saw the film I saw that it was a nudging, a prodding to do what she was suggesting. Which of course means she was telling Ennis to go up and get those shirts she knew were there and which she knew would mean so much to Ennis as they had meant so much to Jack.

Jack in Maine





At least slightly off topic   
by - Rontrigger (Wed Jan 25 2006 23:27:22 )   
Even at 46, I must be naive, but...

Is it really so suspicious for a man to look up another man? Doesn't any guy out there have longtime male friends?

I remember about 15 years ago I had a brief relationship of sorts with this guy and we called it quits, but we remained friends. It gets foggy in the winter where I live, and I asked one night if I could flop on his couch. He said no way, his girlfriend was coming over first thing in the morning.

"So what?" I said. "I'll be on the couch. You'll be in your room." She'd never met me, apparently did not know her man had bisexual tendencies--but he still wouldn't hear of it. I had to drive sloooooowly home in the fog.

I knew another guy who never told his family he had ANY male friends, for fear of his secret getting out. This totally blew me away.

Am I missing something here?

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx





by - jscheib (Thu Jan 26 2006 06:13:10 )   
<<Even at 46, I must be naive, but...
Is it really so suspicious for a man to look up another man? Doesn't any guy out there have longtime male friends? >>

Rontrigger,
If you were referencing my post, above, about what Ennis would think when he realized Jack was asking about him all over town, I would agree, no, it isn't that suspicious. But I was just trying to think from Ennis's perspective, how paranoid he becomes that people will "know" about him and Jack--and there's Jack, asking all over town where to find him.
BTW, I'm 47.
jscheib





by - Rontrigger (Thu Jan 26 2006 22:54:51 )   
Ah, OK, thanks, jscheib. I wasn't sure if this was just another example of Ennis's paranoia or if I've been totally blind to something all my life.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx




by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 15:17:03 )   
Rontrigger, I'm a little confused about what you are actually asking in this post, and maybe missed your point, but in this post but it seems to me you have answered your own question.

On the topic...when you are dealing with closeted, or fearful, or paranoiac, minds...it is a given to them that EVERYONE WILL KNOW if such and such should happen. And if the fear is to be found out as having homosexual thoughts, actions, desires, or experiences, then it follows that you do NOT EVER want anyone to see you with THAT person or anyone who could remotely be considered THAT person, otherwise..your secret is out. THEY will KNOW!

As illogical as it is, and your own experience points out how illogical it is...that's what paranoia is: irrational fear of something imagined in the face of the current reality or circumstances of the present situation which don't support the imagined result.

Jack in Maine




by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 14:34:15 )   
Hehheh, Rontrigger, I LOVE your thinking and postulating!

But....I'm sorry to say I am one who thinks that.....except for the first time and the post-divorce time......they always MET at their rendezvous spot.

I don't believe that motel DID see any other action from our guys. I WANT them to have had more times together their, but I don't think they did.

Between Ennis's marriage, his quitting jobs, later his growing paranoia, I'm really sorry to say, I think it worked best for HIM (Ennis) if he and Jack only met at the rendezvous spot..Brokeback Mountain. At one point I had wondered if they met elsewhere (indoors or outdoors) but in the big tragic climax scene for the two, Jack shouts that all they have is Brokeback. So I think that means that's where they always went and they never went anywhere else.

The white pickup....has implications.

Jack in Maine






by - terryhall2 6 days ago (Sun Mar 12 2006 10:21:28 )   
If you think about it, Ennis never kept Jack that much up to date with where he was living. Jack had to do all the searching (had to ask 10 people in Riverton where you had moved to) - and all the travelling. If there was any doubt that Jack loved Ennis, this removes it all.

TOoP/Bruce:
by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:26:02 )   
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by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 14:21:10 )   
Rontrigger,
It's an interesting question to try to infer when that event, later shown in Jack's memory, actually happened in the time sequence of their Summer. To me, from the content of the flashback, it's obviously "well into" the relationship some appreciable time. And contrary to your thought that maybe Ennis is still hesitant to hug Jack face to face outside the tent, I feel Ennis shows complete calm and comforting ease when giving Jack that tender goodbye hug.

Assume this for example:
Time has passed....4 weeks? 6 weeks? All is going along beautifully, the boys grow more in love, more confident of each other's feelings, more peaceful in their souls, more happy.......both, if thinking about the future at all (the future of this Summer) are thinking as 19 year olds would, namely that they still had a "long" time left before they had to consider any changes. And both boys are still doing the work they were hired to do, one going off to sleep near the sheep, the other minding the base camp.

One evening after supper and spending time together, while Ennis is packing up his horse, Jack is waiting by the fire...tired and contented, peaceful and feeling loved....and Ennis comes and hugs him good bye and tells him he's asleep on his feet so go to bed and rest............THEN THE NEXT DAY, "A" comes up and disrupts everything.

And so, that last tender time together before their world was destroyed, would naturally stick in Jack's mind.......AND in Ennis's mind too. So that when 4 years later, Jack and Ennis finally do see each other again.....it is THAT memory, the memory of their last blissful time together which is the fuel which fires their intense reunion passion.


Connected to these ideas of time sequences etc., but with a totally different focus, I wondered how they did handle the daily schedule once they had become intimate.
Do they separate each night? Every night?...do sometimes they both go to guard the sheep?...does Jack ride up to spend parts of the day with Ennis?


Again, I say, it is a testament to a great work that we can discuss these characters as if they lived and still live!

Jack in Maine





by - snuffle007 (Thu Jan 26 2006 06:17:38 )   
I know what you mean. I feel that if they had been given more time together and really prepared for the end then I feel they may very well have ended up living together.

Ennis was really badly effected by the sudden end of their time, expressing it as anger over "lost pay" when you know deep down that isn't what he is angry about. He wanted to have more time with Jack and is really angry that he is losing that time.

I wish that that time hadn't been lost. Maybe they both would've ended up happy together!! (hey I can dream can't I??!!)


"I wish I knew how to quit you" Jack Twist





by - Rontrigger (Thu Jan 26 2006 23:12:17 )   
You sure can, Snuffle.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx






by - Jack_Me (Fri Jan 27 2006 09:50:19 )   
Rontrigger,
(I have been absent from this board for a few days)

Before I read any other posts in this thread I have to tell you that I appreciate your analysis and suggestions.

(I also have to say that I find it fascinating and wonderful that so many here can seriously and genuinely, limiting ourselves to the movie content, interpret behaviour and suggest motives and alternative sequences and chains of event, which could result in possibly different end scenarios in these two characters lives! It's marvelous. Proulx and Lee certainly created a couple of real people!)

You are very right in so many ways in your analysis. Ennis is CLEARLY startled and disturbed by the sudden change. And it was not just a few days or a week, but a full month that he was being shorted. And naturally the money was a consideration, but to feel you had another month to share privately, of friendship and love, and to suddenly find it taken away is a trauma. You say he clearly did not like surprises and I would agree, because so much of his life was dictated and formed by loneliness and fear. A lonely person would be devastated to suddenly learn he will be separated from his recently found comfort (as you say, friendship, not just love and sex). And a fearful person NEVER wants change. The only safety and comfort a fearful person has is in maintaining the status quo; change equals more fear.

Ennis's snap at Jack's offer of a money loan, while no doubt motivated by generosity and kindness, can be interpreted on it's surface as an insult to Ennis's capability of providing for himself, which is how Ennis responds to it. But there is more there behind that response. When Ennis comes to camp Jack is rather matter of fact in telling Ennis about A's order to break camp and bring the sheep down. Jack does not seem upset and doesn't FIRST express to Ennis his sadness or disappointment about this sudden change in the circumstances of their relationship. So when Jack offers money it only compounds this matter of fact attitude he seems to have, and implies to Ennis that the pending separation is not such a big deal to Jack as it is to Ennis.

Then Ennis goes off by himself, to grieve, to pout, and I'm sure is wracked with pain and sadness and probably LOTS of anger....towards life, towards A, and probably (just below the surface) towards Jack for not seeming as upset, as he (Ennis) is feeling).

When Jack comes with the lasso, it is at first sweet and gentle and caring (Come on cowboy, time to go), and Ennis gets up as if he's resigned to fate. But as you say, when Jack's playfulness AGAIN KNOCKS ENNIS OFF HIS FEET....now physically (after his emotional knock), all his anger and resentment of the circumstances come out in physical violence. At first Jack is playful, and completely misses Ennis's mood and then BANG it turns from play to violence.

That was one of the MOST accurate and true scenes in the film I thought! The two boys were NOT on the same page, as the saying goes, and that created the explosive clash.

Rontrigger, then you say:
And what would have been different? No bloody shirts. No dry heaves for Ennis (at least for a while). Jack, I think, would have offered him a ride to Riverton--even if it were out of the way, which it may have been.

OH yes, this is true. And there would have been time for Jack to reassure Ennis of his feelings and to possibly plan, if not a life together, then at least a next meeting. The slower re-entry into society may have given Ennis a bit more hope, a bit more assurance, a bit less fear, and a bit more possibility of risking a life together.

Rontrigger, you say:
And would he have been successful? I imagine Ennis taking Jack up on that ride, and Jack saying, "I guess I'll be heading to Lightning Flat. Why don't you come with me?"

And of course, since the boys found themselves with an unexpected free month, Ennis would definitely have gone with Jack, even if he still planned at that point to come back later to Riverton to marry Alma.

Rontrigger, you say:
Of course, a lot would depend on whether Ennis, by then, would have reconsidered marrying Alma so soon. I could see Jack, with an additional three or four weeks, trying to plant seeds of doubt in Ennis's mind.

I'd rather put it this way (since this is our communal fantasy on providing a happier life for two people we love!):
Having the month together, especially down off Brokeback would have given the boys a chance to expand their relationship because they would share and experience more and different events, situations, and other people together. From spending this time together, they would both naturally want to stay together and so Jack would NOT have to plant seeds of doubt in Ennis's mind about marrying Alma, but the two would naturally see the alternative to separating, and so Ennis himself would realize he couldn't and didn't want to marry Alma (by the end of this projected month together.) and even if Ennis's fear still kept him from considering the idea of actually living and ranching up together, they likely could have had lives, ostensibly separate, but together much of the time. Each in his own job somewhere and coming together at some other neutral place. Yes this sounds like closeted behaviour, but given the circumstances of the place and time, it would still have been a happier alternative compromise at a continued life together.

Not to say that Jack loved Ennis any less then Ennis loved Jack, but their underlying needs and personalities motivated them differently. Jack was much more easy-going. Ennis had said he was going to marry Alma. Jack accepted that. Jack had been on Brokeback the Summer before and naturally had it in mind that he likely would come again next Summer, and he did. What would have happened if Ennis Del Mar had shown up that next Summer? (Well let's skip the nasty fact of A's denouncement, for this fantasy, and imagine another Brokeback Summer of Love for the two boys!)

Great thread.

Jack in Maine




by - Rontrigger (Sat Jan 28 2006 00:53:01 )   
"And of course, since the boys found themselves with an unexpected free month, Ennis would definitely have gone with Jack, even if he still planned at that point to come back later to Riverton to marry Alma."

Well, they actually DID have the unexpected free month; if they hadn't been let go, they'd have left Brokeback in September, not August. I don't know if this makes any difference in your agreement with my fantasy, but I hope not.

<Sigh> Jack and Ennis, together in Lightning Flat in 1963...imagine the possibilities.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx





by - chibidesign (Sat Jan 28 2006 02:37:22 )   
This is a great thread! There was another one a while back that imagined the guys figuring no one was expecting them for another month, getting paid and turning right around and going back.
But from personal experience (an isolated duty station, a beautiful nurse, an extra couple of weeks getting to know her a whole lot better due to extreme weather when no planes could land), an extra month might have made their parting even more gut-wrenching but no less inevitable: they have four more weeks all alone together, their attachment grows even stronger, Ennis in particular really starts to let his guard down, but at the end of it they still have to come down from the mountain.
Dellaluvia had an interesting point that knowing the end was in sight they might have started to mentally distance themselves from each other in preparation for it, but I think that's the kind of mental discipline that comes with experience. These are two young guys, neither of them very introspective, Jack marginally more so than Ennis, in the the throes of first love. Also, being horny 19-year-olds (hey, it wasn't so long ago I can't remember!) going from famine to feast, as it were, once they couldn't ignore the clock running down anymore, they might have gotten more frantic, taking bigger risks. Toward the end, they would have probably blown off Aguirre's sleep-with-the-sheep directive altogether, with Ennis spending every night in the tent, breakfast and supper stretching out for hours, oblivious to the coyotes' all-you-can-eat buffet going on up in the pasture. I may have an eye for the ladies, but I also have one for the gentlemen, and no offense to the guys here but there's nothing dumber than a man thinking with his little head. That, combined with the fact when you're 19, time doesn't have the urgency it does when you're 35, makes me think the end would have caught them with their pants down in both senses, whether it fell in August or September. The wrestling bout that turns into a fight might have been even more intense--Ennis is a guy who has a hard time dealing with powerful emotions and when he's forced to, time and again he reverts to the one he's most comfortable with, anger, and its physical expression, violence.
It's hard to guess if they would have made any tentative plans for them to be together. When they came off the mountain, regardless of the month, it was still going to be 1963 in Wyoming, and I think they would quite literally have felt the weight of being at a lower elevation where the air is thicker.
In the film, where they say their goodbyes at Jack's truck, there's a blink-and-you missed-it moment: right after Ennis says "Well, I guess I'll see you around," and Jack replies, "Yeah," and looks down for a second, trying to control his face. He looks back up at Ennis and there's a pause of about three seconds where it's as if they'e both waiting for the other to say something, but neither of them has the courage to say what he feels, and the moment passes.
It's a nice alternative to imagine Jack driving Ennis to Riverton to break the bad news to Alma (with Jack in the truck with the passenger door open, one foot on the clutch ready to pop it in gear and peel out of there) and then the two of them driving off together to Lightning Flat to introduce Ennis to the folks and going on to lick that damn ranch into shape. But I think that was a dream that Jack spun out slowly to himself over that first winter away from Ennis after Brokeback, and even after the heat of their reunion, he's shy about it, mentioning it tentatively, "what if you an me had a little cow and calf operation?", never putting flesh on the bones over the course of twenty years, leaving Ennis to find out too late that he had something specific in mind.
With regard to the thread-within-a-thread, I think Ennis's paranoia ran so deep, he would never bring Jack anywhere near his day-to-day life. That kiss on the stairwell and then spending the night with Jack at a motel so close by (in the short story, Proulx writes that they leave the apartment and including a trip to the liquor store, "twenty minutes later...were in the Motel Siesta jouncing a bed.") were lapses that Ennis doesn't plan to repeat, especially when Jack starts with what to Ennis is crazy talk about running away together.The way Ennis's mind works, there's no way in hell he'd have Jack (and his recognizable truck and its out-of-state plates)staying at his place, especially after his asking about Ennis all over town, or later on in his trailer (I also assumed the trailer was a post-Jack development, since Alma Jr is already ninteen, you see him putting the numbers on the mailbox sometime early in the next year). In a small community like that, or on a ranch with other hands about, the risk, real or imaginary, is something unthinkable for Ennis.


Trespassers will be shot.
Survivors will be shot again.





by - delalluvia (Sat Jan 28 2006 09:31:07 )   
Excellent post chibidesign

I may have an eye for the ladies, but I also have one for the gentlemen, and no offense to the guys here but there's nothing dumber than a man thinking with his little head.

LOL!

Team Jolie





by - NewHorizons37 (Sat Jan 28 2006 10:15:48 )   
UPDATED Sat Jan 28 2006 10:16:30
Great post! I especially liked
Toward the end, they would have probably blown off Aguirre's sleep-with-the-sheep directive altogether, with Ennis spending every night in the tent, breakfast and supper stretching out for hours, oblivious to the coyotes' all-you-can-eat buffet going on up in the pasture.

It made me laugh. Not that a sheep slaughter by the coyotes would be funny, but just love how you put that.

Also posting just to BUMP this thread, because it is a great thread, as well as being truly original. Can't think of a thread in some time that brought up something completely new, as this one did. Kudos to the original poster.





by - Jack_Me (Sat Jan 28 2006 09:48:46 )   

No Rontrigger, it doesn't make any difference in my agreement with your fantasy, because you took my comment out of the context it was written in.

I belive you started by imagining an extra month together and then went on to describe the positive possibilities that could have generated, with NO bloody shirts, etc. and I was just picking up that if they hadn't had the SUDDEN departure thrust on them, they might not have had the fist fight, and so come down the mountain together happy and peaceful, and THEN since they had the unexpected extra month......etc.

Yeah....Jack and Ennis together in Lightning Flat in 1963.....happy together or dealing with an angry unpleasant you-know-who.........
But even if that, they would have been together, and could have gone off somewhere else......

Nice fantasy.

Jack in Maine




by - Rontrigger (Sun Jan 29 2006 02:57:44 )   
Ah, OK...must have misread that comment. (Eyes glaze over after many hours here.)

Thank you for appreciating the fantasy. I made the mistake of checking out some Fanfiction postings--a mistake because, though generally very well-written, they depressed me to no end. (One of them imagines Jack's last thoughts as he lay dying [pursuant to the murder theory], which include his sadness that his killers virtually destroyed his beloved hat--this turned me into a blithering idiot for a while.) I prefer to pursue happier scenarios here.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx




by - Rontrigger (Sat Jan 28 2006 01:22:59 )   

Jack, I hope this single post will suffice to thank you for all the replies to my earlier ones. I thoroughly enjoy all the discussion and all the revelations it has helped me to have.

This movie will stay with me, and I'm sure pretty much all of us, forever.

"You can't have Ennis without Jack."--Annie Proulx


TOoP/Bruce:
by - jshane2002 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 01:28:08 )   
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by - Jack_Me (Sat Jan 28 2006 09:57:29 )   
Rontrigger, it is I who thank YOU for beginning an interesting discussion.

I too enjoy all the genuine discussion and the revelations which that brings about different aspects of these wonderful characters.

It is certainly a wonderful movie and will be a classic in the history of film in general and of gay cinema. Let us hope Heath Ledger is both nominated and wins for Best Actor....
Because of a case such as this movie, where you can't have both Heath and Jake win the single Oscar for Best Actor, if there is not already one, there should be an Oscar for Best Ensemble Acting to recognize such great collaborations as existed in this movie. Some may say that is what Best Picture is, but that category entails (or should) more than just the acting.

Jack in Maine




by - Flickfan-3 (Sun Feb 5 2006 07:53:39 )   
Ron--this is older thread but wanted to ask question about importance of Augutst

does anyone know if August was the month (for sure) that Jack died---the implication I get from the phone conversation is that Jack has been dead a while because she said they sent the ashes up to his folks...
I have been reading the threads for a while and don't think I have ever seen anyone give the definite month that Jack's death occurs
I seems to me that if Jack died in August when he and Ennis should have been on another reunion vacation then Ennis would really feel guilt about not being there for him--even more than he does anyway...
and idea what month is a legitimate date for the death???

"...That's the beauty of argument, Joey. If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..."




by - valerie_lp (Sun Feb 5 2006 12:07:21 )   

Someone way up at the beginning of the thread pointed out that Ennis is angry at Jack's offhanded way of telling him it's their last day together. If he'd held Ennis and said, "God, I can't believe it, I really wish we had more time together, but Aguirre came up here today and said..." he might have handled it better, but he's far more hurt by Jack's "oh well, want some money?" manner. I noticed on my 3rd viewing that as they're trying to separate the sheep, Ennis says, "What if we wanna work for him again next summer,
Re: Lost Month - Repost   
by - taj_e 1 day ago (Wed May 17 2006 03:39:13 )   
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I did remember this one, if not mistaken it was also earlier listed on Joyce's summary thread. I thought the posts got even upto APR

I do remember posting that they didn't really lost any 'month' as should they have already developed enough chemistry and that should they stay longer, they may risk Aguirre's wrath lol

But then, I realised that they actually 'lost' all those 20 years. Unspoken and unfulfilled love. Both self-sacrificing and 'selfish' love
Never enough time, never enough...
Re: Lost Month - Repost   
by - joyce023 18 hours ago (Wed May 17 2006 10:03:21 )   
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WOW! Very much appreciated to bring it back jshane2002! Well done!
It is originally entitled: "Did the 'lost month' make a difference?"

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