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What do you think makes this movie so romantic?
nic:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on May 03, 2006, 11:46:11 am ---He he, don't hurt yourself now! ;) I loved your post nic, and I fully agree with you. My next ponderer though is this: We (still) talk about women being emotionally motivated and men being physically motivated, so much so that it's cliched. But do you think things are changing such that men are becoming more like women (at least emotioally)? A female friend of mine asked me over dinner tonight if I considered myself more like a woman (my motivations, likes and dislikes, etc), and with some discomfort I suggested that maybe I do. And if there was any doubt, BBM took care of that! But enough about me, I wonder if anyone is experiencing this or noticing it generally in others? Is the cliche destined for the scrap heap?
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I hadn't specifically thought about it before but I would say it is probably the case that men are now more than ever able to express their emotional side, which could be because they always had it but had to hide it before or because the male role has actually changed. Maybe a bit of both is true. Certainly society has changed a lot, with women now also being major breadwinners, able to compete in most professional arenas (not fully equally yet mind!) , men more involved in bringing up children, men becoming more aware of their appearance (there is a thread about body image on this very site!), more visibility of gay men, etc. In my lifetime there has been talk of the "new man" (a staight phenomena) and recently the "metrosexual" man (straight again).
Is the change a good thing? Yes, hopefully if we are more alike we understand each other better is my simplistic naive answer! It's alll part of the unavoidale human melting point - we are all becoming more alike in every way and that now includes male & female. Just like there are groups & societies to preserve ethnic & historic traditions soon there will be measures to preserve the traditional male & female roles! Imagine re-enactment groups recreating a domestic scene from the 1950s : a woman serving the husband his cocktail as he gets home from work, handing him the newspaper & his slippers so he can relax while she goes off to prepare the elaborate evening meal !
I digress. A related question to you to end on : are women becoming more like men?
nic
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on May 03, 2006, 01:30:16 pm ---So despite my rational explanation above, I actually am still a little mystified about what makes Brokeback so sexy. Obviously it's very beautiful and well done, and I think everybody involved must have been trying hard for that -- not only for the usual artistic reasons but also because they wanted to make homosexuality look good to a "crossover" audience. Also, what you said, Nic, is very true -- seeing men in movies express strong emotion and vulnerability for a change is powerful.
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Masculine vulnerability is a really tricky thing isn't it? It needs to be matched with "virility" otherwise it comes across as weakness. But we don't see Jack and Ennis as emotionally weak do we? Quite the opposite.
--- Quote ---But is their being gay a factor in my response? To be honest, I just can't tell. Certainly that's what makes the story unusual and interesting. It also could be the other way around, maybe my awareness that Heath and Jake are (apparently) straight in real life makes a difference. But I'll have to admit that lately I find watching men and women together kind of boring. That's scary! I hope it's just a temporary result of my obsession.
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Probably temporary, but then again the bar may have been raised here. I myself would be more than happy to see straight-romance *if* it was done with the degree of integrity and honesty that it was in Brokeback. I think the boredom factor comes from us becoming jaded with the knowledge that there are two actors on the screen, in a contrived "time for the sex-scene" part of the movie, where it's not much more than a simulation of intimacy. They're a bit like breast implants - some people like them (I guess) but they're only superficial. Yawn, pass the pop-corn why don't you...
--- Quote ---In any case, I should note that not all straight women I know find the movie sexy; for some, I think orientation is a barrier. This is a pretty self-selected group here at BetterMost.
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Their loss in my opinion. But sympathetically, I wonder what really moves these people? Nothing? God that would be awful. Personally, I wouldn't give up the fact that I see beauty and cry in appreciation of it for all the tea in China. As for the gay/universal love story debate, for goodness sake, is that all this film is to them? Property? Btw, I loved your joke about "No fair", that's so cute!
--- Quote ---PS Chris, I see that once again you've posted since I wrote this, and the conversation has moved on somewhat. I do hope maybe Brokeback will help open up more possibilities for male expression in movies.
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Oh God yes please...
Aussie Chris:
--- Quote from: nic on May 03, 2006, 05:35:27 pm ---Is the change a good thing? Yes, hopefully if we are more alike we understand each other better is my simplistic naive answer! It's alll part of the unavoidale human melting point - we are all becoming more alike in every way and that now includes male & female. Just like there are groups & societies to preserve ethnic & historic traditions soon there will be measures to preserve the traditional male & female roles! Imagine re-enactment groups recreating a domestic scene from the 1950s : a woman serving the husband his cocktail as he gets home from work, handing him the newspaper & his slippers so he can relax while she goes off to prepare the elaborate evening meal !
--- End quote ---
Ha ha, re-enacting the 1950's stereotypes? Don't we just have to watch Happy days for this? Actually Pleasantville does this quite well for me, although it uses an extreme 1950's sitcom view of the 1950, I still find the Betty character so endearing (Joan Allen is just brilliant).
--- Quote ---I digress. A related question to you to end on : are women becoming more like men?
--- End quote ---
Boy, well I guess I've got to get as good as I give it here don't I? You know I have thought about this. I've always been "attracted" to strong women. My best friend is very strong and I value her opinion more than just about anyone in the world. Not strong in overbearing or demanding way, it's more the intangible quality of really being present in this world. So many people in the world (not just women) seem to be more "filler" to me than anything else. They go through life and participate in their own way, but without really impacting it. I guess I seek out the women that have an impact and associate with them (flying with the eagles and all that jazz). I think these women are certainly becoming more common-place. If I were to say how women are changing on the whole, it would be in this way rather than being more like men.
Actually there are more and more women that are acting like men (read arrogant). I work in a large corporation (by Australian standards) and there are quite a lot of women in power here. Most are brilliant, but then you get those that overcompensate. You can pick 'em a mile off, but they're usually so shallow that they don't even realise that they are susceptible to flattery more than they should. In other words, just make them feel like the boss and they're usually happy, but stay out of their way when they're not.
--- Quote ---I hadn't specifically thought about it before but I would say it is probably the case that men are now more than ever able to express their emotional side, which could be because they always had it but had to hide it before or because the male role has actually changed. Maybe a bit of both is true. Certainly society has changed a lot, with women now also being major breadwinners, able to compete in most professional arenas (not fully equally yet mind!) , men more involved in bringing up children, men becoming more aware of their appearance (there is a thread about body image on this very site!), more visibility of gay men, etc. In my lifetime there has been talk of the "new man" (a straight phenomena) and recently the "metro-sexual" man (straight again).
--- End quote ---
In a very real way I like to think that the emergence of gays in society is helping this along. I know that many of my long term (straight) male friends have matured immensely over the years. I made it one of my rules that I would treat their heterosexuality with as much respect as I wanted my homosexuality to be treated. That means not thinking that everyone is gay they just don’t know it yet, and "bi-curious" is not my prerogative to explore or encourage (I have had a couple of those requests though). My friends and I can hug, cuddle, and even kiss (hello/goodbye), at least in an appropriate environment. For these men I had to establish very strong integrity borders around how I acted around them. I had to make sure that I never made them feel uncomfortable or think that I was (shall we say) being "too friendly". With my friends it was always clear in word and deed that our affection was very real but completely platonic, and with that knowledge we were free to express it without fear.
The key word here is *integrity*. When it becomes part of your core values and you demonstrate it on a daily basis, people begin to trust you instinctively and their defences are free to be lowered little by little. But it is at that moment when people that are just giving lip-service to integrity are caught out, and I think they are the ones that give the anti-gay movement so much ammunition. Thankfully I have a pretty good integrity-radar when it comes to people like that - you just have to watch their eyes!
nic:
--- Quote from: Aussie Chris on May 03, 2006, 11:52:16 pm ---Actually there are more and more women that are acting like men (read arrogant).
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I have heard this before and think it is probably true, but in defence of my gender to a certain point, female emancipation is still fairly new. There are not many role models, and the higher you go in a career or profession the fewer they become. So I think it is partly due to lack of experience and knowledge as to how to act. Overcompensation is very common when one feels insecure.
--- Quote ---In a very real way I like to think that the emergence of gays in society is helping this along.
--- End quote ---
I'd agree, in the sense that it increases awareness of alternate lifestyles and increases tolerance, in a similar way to racial integration and increasing opportunities for women, ie everyone becomes more knowledgable about their fellow humans and knowledge removes fear of the unknown so should hopefully make everything better overall (she says with her rose-tinted contacts in!).
I haven't got another question this time so you get off easy!
nic
EnnisDelMar:
"What do you think makes this movie so romantic?"
That it brings people together who would've never known each other had it not been for their consensual love of the film. :)
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