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delalluvia:
Hiya star and little,
Yep, it's a big issue and a complicated issue.
Goodness no. Whoever suggested 'shipping 'em all home' was a maniac. 11 million people? OK, Stalin and the Nazis managed to do it, but train cattle cars is waaaaaaaaay beyond the pale here. But something has to be done, because it is a sticky wicket. While some illegal immigrants are practically the proverbial American success story, others can and do make negative impacts in local economies, they can and do overwhelm social services and public schooling. They're nearly impossible to police since they don't speak the language, are extremely mobile, don't abide by many of the laws, do spend a great deal of time hiding from the authorities. What the government is proposing in immigration reform won't do the trick. Problem is, I'm not sure what will. It's impossible to police our borders, but with all the terrorism dangers, it's imperative that we do.
As far as economics, I just was on another board and read this:
If the argument is that "migrants do the work that Americans won't", then won't they cease to be willing to do the work once they are Americans? That is, once they have rights, why would they work there?
Other poster: They drive wages down, Americans won't work for the wages these illegals do, therefore creating the jobs that Americans won't do, whereas BEFORE they were here and driving wages down, Americans DID do those jobs.
Other poster: They will pay more in taxes, some will form unions, migrate to other (better paying) work, some go on social secutiry, etc. Yes, wages will start to rise in low skilled jobs and then new illegals will flood into the US, displacing the them and the prior native workers. Then, like Cesar Chevez, they will realize that "new" illegals are economic threats to "old" illegals.
This had occured to me as well. If all the illegal immigrants become legal, won't they start demanding the same pay scale and job protections as other Americans? Suddenly it won't be so cheap to hire them as unskilled labor and businesses that thrive because they hired illegals and had no overhead (a friend of a friend is making a killing in a landscaping business. He has hard working illegals working for him and he doesn't give them anything beyond what he promised to pay them - no insurance, no benefits, no 401K, nada, nothing. I wonder how long he'd stay in business if he suddenly had to start coughing up health insurance.) will suddenly have problems staying in the black.
It's a big deal economically speaking and that always trumps compassion and humanity. The illegals are here to make more money than they could at home. Hardly any compassion there - strictly cold hard numbers.
Yes, laws can be relative, but they don't have to be. It can be just that simple. They're breaking the law. I work for a law firm. I hear many many many sob stories about how people ended up in the situation they did. Every lawbreaker out there has a sob story. If we're going to give EVERYone the benefit of the doubt, why have laws?
If legal relativism becomes more common, then the laws no longer have teeth and we're no longer in a society that upholds the law. We're now a 3rd world country or Capone's Chicago where we can just buy off a policeman or fireman or government clerk and get whatever we want done regardless of the legality of it. We're almost there now and it isn't a pretty picture. Yes our government has shown the ugly face of spying on its own citizens. But of course, if you read the rationale, it makes perfect sense why they do. Is it right for them to do so? Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. The old 'yelling fire' in a crowded theater example comes to mind when I consider that.
Yes, the better lawyer you have the more often you get off from any charge. But what is that but rampant capitalism? You get what you can pay for. Can't get more 'American' than that.
JennyC:
Phew, that was a lot of discussion since I checked this thread :). We all obviously feel passionate on this issue. Read through the posts, I think everyone agrees that deportation is not the solution for the existing 11million illegal immigrants (or undocumented workers). Hopefully, we can settle that argument.
On the future prevention side, the center issue is whether it’s justifiable for people to come here illegally to improve their life and that of their children’s. The arguments on both sides have been presented. It’s not the motivation that has been questioned here, but the means of carrying out such motivation. I know, I know. We talked about there is no legal way for these immigrants to come here, or they can not afford to come here legally. Then this is something that should be changed to provide an affordable and practical way for low skilled immigrant workers to come here legally.
The thing is there are more people want to come to US than the US economy and resources can ever absorb (well there are some people here who want to move to other counties after the election, but that’s another issue ;) ). When you talk about the illegal immigrants from Mexico and other close by South American counties, think about the people who also want to pursue the American dream in Africa and in Asia. They are certainly at the disadvantage here since it’s far more difficult for them to come here, legally or illegally. So let’s see what the options we have here:
1. Open the door to welcome everyone (I mean EVERYONE) who wants come here to pursue the American dream and be a contributing member of the society.
2. Let proximity play its charm: if you manage to get to US, then we will recognize you and give you legal status. For the sisters and brothers in Africa and Asia, sorry you guys are at disadvantage here since you are too far away. By the way, since we already have so many immigrants within the region, we really can not afford to have more from your country, even legally.
3. Since resources are limited, then some rules need to be set up in terms of how you can come here, and how many US can accommodate. This means not everyone’s requests will be accommodated, but everyone should get a fair chance. If you don’t play by the rule, then there should be some consequences, otherwise it’s not fair to other people who play by the rule when you gain unfair advantage over them.
Seriously, there is no perfect solution that makes everyone happy. It’s the typical dilemma between ideology and reality. Unfortunate, reality is what matters the most. You have to pick, not between good and bad choices, but lesser of the evils. You have to go with one that is practical and relatively fair to everyone.
Let me just add one last thing. Once we sort out who can get here and how, let’s all work even harder to treat everyone fairly and do not discriminate them.
starboardlight:
--- Quote from: JennyC on May 03, 2006, 03:03:45 am ---Phew, that was a lot of discussion since I checked this thread :). We all obviously feel passionate on this issue. Read through the posts, I think everyone agrees that deportation is not the solution for the existing 11million illegal immigrants (or undocumented workers). Hopefully, we can settle that argument.
On the future prevention side, the center issue is whether it’s justifiable for people to come here illegally to improve their life and that of their children’s. The arguments on both sides have been presented. It’s not the motivation that has been questioned here, but the means of carrying out such motivation. I know, I know. We talked about there is no legal way for these immigrants to come here, or they can not afford to come here legally. Then this is something that should be changed to provide an affordable and practical way for low skilled immigrant workers to come here legally.
The thing is there are more people want to come to US than the US economy and resources can ever absorb (well there are some people here who want to move to other counties after the election, but that’s another issue ;) ). When you talk about the illegal immigrants from Mexico and other close by South American counties, think about the people who also want to pursue the American dream in Africa and in Asia. They are certainly at the disadvantage here since it’s far more difficult for them to come here, legally or illegally. So let’s see what the options we have here:
1. Open the door to welcome everyone (I mean EVERYONE) who wants come here to pursue the American dream and be a contributing member of the society.
2. Let proximity play its charm: if you manage to get to US, then we will recognize you and give you legal status. For the sisters and brothers in Africa and Asia, sorry you guys are at disadvantage here since you are too far away. By the way, since we already have so many immigrants within the region, we really can not afford to have more from your country, even legally.
3. Since resources are limited, then some rules need to be set up in terms of how you can come here, and how many US can accommodate. This means not everyone’s requests will be accommodated, but everyone should get a fair chance. If you don’t play by the rule, then there should be some consequences, otherwise it’s not fair to other people who play by the rule when you gain unfair advantage over them.
Seriously, there is no perfect solution that makes everyone happy. It’s the typical dilemma between ideology and reality. Unfortunate, reality is what matters the most. You have to pick, not between good and bad choices, but lesser of the evils. You have to go with one that is practical and relatively fair to everyone.
Let me just add one last thing. Once we sort out who can get here and how, let’s all work even harder to treat everyone fairly and do not discriminate them.
--- End quote ---
that's just it, there is no solution if we only look at immigration as the issue. let look at why people want to come. people are in desperate economic situations where they live, and they think the answer is here in the US. That's why Mexico as a country need to address this issue too, and we're not pushing the Mexican leaders hard enough to deal with it. The tide of immigrants will decrease if people feel like they have a future in their home country. How we achieve that is not in border patrol and criminalization of people. It's going to take a serious and different approach to what's being discussed.
delalluvia:
It does beg the question though, is there a particular reason in this country that we NEED to have an open door immigration policy anymore? I can see the need in some instances, persecution, etc., but why else?
How many people do we need in this country? We already have 400 million people in this country, I'm not sure if that number includes all the undocumented aliens. I'm sure 400 million people will have no trouble reproducing.
Are we really lacking in manpower in this country that we need more new immigrants?
For people in desperate financial straits overseas, is there nowhere else for them to go but here? Surely there are more options for them closer to home.
starboardlight:
I'm not sure the term "open door" is even applicable to the the policy as it exist now. it's more like "invitations only". As i've described, the legal immigration route is accessible for the most part only to those whose skills are in the labor markets that are experiencing low labor supply. The tech sector, despite what the hubbub, still don't produce enough Americans engineers and scientists. The creative services sector also go through periods of ups and downs in available labor supply. Nursing as industry is looking at a major shortage in the near future. These are just examples. And of course the low skill labor supply is an economic issue that America has yet to really tackle. In order to fill our needs for workers and continue our economic progress and technological leadership, America needs to replenish it's labor supply.
Two other routes are something I have looked into very much. Talent based visa, for athletes, singers, actors are obviously highly selective. I don't know how that all works. And then we have immigration through family relationships. We have a policy that anyone born on American soil automatically becomes a citizen, parent can then petition to for green cards themselves. And of course getting green cards through marriage. I don't know how significant a number of immigrants take these routes. It's talked about but no one seems to present any numbers on this.
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