Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - RouxB (Fri Mar 3 2006 07:26:57 )
This may have been covered somewhere else-excuse the duplication if so-but I curuious as to how others interpret the last line Lureen speaks. She tells Ennis, from the book, "You get in touch with them. I suppose they'd appreciate it if his wishes was carried out" and the film adds "about the ashes I mean"
What else would she mean? I have my thoughts but am interested in (some) of yours.
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - kaijuman (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:04:22 )
I just thought it was to re-iterate what she was refering to.
When reading a book, you can move at your pace, and even go back to verify something.
Movies just go at thier pace, and you have to move with it.
In the following scenes Ennis is at Jacks parents house, so, by restating what she's refering to (about the ashes I mean), keeps it in the viewers mind as we move to the next scene.
That's my guess anyways.
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - newyearsday (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:08:22 )
I've always wondered this too...I will have to ponder it and get back to this. I have wondered if it was a veiled reference to how his parents might not appreciate if his OTHER wishes--i.e. to be with Ennis--were carried out when he was alive...or something (?)
www.revelationtees.spreadshirt.com"One life, with each other"
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - rtprod (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:08:53 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 08:52:45
SPOILERS
Very dense and layered dialogue in this scene. When Ennis tells her that they were herding sheep on Brokeback in '63, she realizes why this was Jack's favorite place and who exactly is on the other end of the line. So in this moment she understands what Jack's wishes for his life were. I interpret Lureen's remarks as meaning "his wishes" about his love for Ennis, and his desires to be with Ennis, which were never carried out. So she tears up, then she pauses after she says it....then she qualifies it after a dramatic pause, with "about the ashes, I mean," which is not really what she meant, but she backpeddles a little bit. In this moment she is thinking that Jack would have appreciated it if his wishes for his life and love had been carried out. But now she knows it is obviously too late for that.
rtprod
"The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him..."
SPOILERS
by - lauragigs (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:14:02 )
Jack and Lureen's marriage was basically dominated by her world: her dad, the business they worked in, the child that was probably not planned, etc. (Not that this was Lureen's fault.)
So I imagine she's referring to the fact that through most of his life, Jack basically never got his own way.
(You could infer that she's also referring to Jack obviously not having his own way where Ennis was concerned, but she wouldn't have a clue of this until during that very conversation -- and she'd be too shocked to be able to comment at that point.)
Re: SPOILERS
by - lauragigs (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:15:47 )
Sorry rtprod, we were writing at the same time. Good points...
Re: SPOILERS
by - rtprod (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:28:19 )
hi laura,
i liked your assessment also -- you can see an example in the Thanksgiving scene, after Jack sits back down and before he stands up again to carve the turkey. his utter defeat at his life and sadness at celebrating this tradition with his "family," rather than with Ennis, has eaten him up. In a way, he is kindred spirits with Lureen, who has also seen her youthful energy and demeanor vanish with time.
rtprod
"The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him..."
The 'unplanned' child
by - bkamberger (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:30:46 )
I'm not sure we can say this was not Lureen's fault.
There was a thread a while back in which someone worked out the timeline of Lureen's pregnancy. I don't have the specifics at my fingertips, but based on the date of the rodeo where they meet (seen on a banner) and the fact Bobby is "eight months old" (as Jack says) at the time of the reunion with Ennis, Lureen must already be pregnant when she has sex with Jack in the back seat! If this is true, it's a small step to conclude that she deliberately "lures" Jack into marriage, in order to obtain a father for her child. This would also explain why Mr. Newsome instantly dislikes Jack, since he assumes that Jack was the one who got his little girl pregnant, probably as a way of horning in on the family fortune.
Even if we don't buy this theory, though, there's no denying Lureen rather forcefully seduces Jack on the day they meet, and that she doesn't even try to take precautions to prevent a pregnancy. Funny how few people fault her for this, yet many complain that Jack and Ennis have their first sexual encounter too suddenly (after being on the mountain alone together for weeks), that Jack is a "sexual predator," and that these two don't practice safe sex (two decades before AIDS became widely known). Double standard, anyone?
Re: The 'unplanned' child
by - rtprod (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:34:46 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 08:35:13
Also -- note how Jack stands in the rear of the room, disengaged, when Lureen's parents first visit the baby. He never wanted that child, whereas Ennis has a deeper connection to his daughters.
"The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him..."
Re: SPOILERS
by - lauragigs (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:47:57 )
"Jack's utter defeat at ... celebrating Thanksgiving with his 'family', rather than Ennis..."
I've said this before, but the Thanksgiving scene is such a perfect allegory: it's amazing how emasculated Jack & Ennis are by the trappings of the "straight" life they adopted.
In their "queer, f^ggy, [insert gay-bashing here]" relationship with each other, they could have celebrated Thanksgiving together with wild game they hunted themselves roasting on an open fire. Instead, they celebrate with their respective families in defeat, as you said.
In the story...
by - bkamberger (Fri Mar 3 2006 08:57:01 )
...Ennis said he wanted a boy but only got girls, and Jack replies, "I never wanted none of either kind." The film presents a very different picture, though. Ennis' love for his daughters is never in doubt, and the issue of wanting a boy is never mentioned. I think Jack is shoved into the background in the hospital scene because he's seen as an outsider and a useless annoyance by the Newsomes, not because he doesn't love his son. The shot of him helping Bobby to steer the tractor suggests that there is a strong bond between them, as does the scene where he shows more interest in Bobby's learning problems than Lureen does.
Re: In the story...
by - rtprod (Fri Mar 3 2006 09:06:32 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 09:07:24
Agree that Jack is seen as an outsider. But don't forget that Jack was willing to impulsively leave his wife--and son--in a moment's notice, over the years, to set up a life with Ennis, in Mexico or wherever. I'm not convinced that there was such a strong bond between Bobby and his father, though in one particular scene he certainly seems concerned about Bobby's academic situation and the teacher at the school.
"The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him..."
Bobby
by - bkamberger (Fri Mar 3 2006 09:15:44 )
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Many have speculated that Bobby will grow up to be gay, since he has the classic Freudian home of a strong mother and a distant father. In the Thanksgiving scene, L.D. Newsome says the boy should be watching a "manly" game like football, suggesting that he thinks the kid is a little "soft" (i.e., a potential sissy), and the young actor who plays Bobby certainly shows where he might have gotten that impression. If this is true, and if, as you say, Jack doesn't have a strong bond with his son, this strikes me as very sad indeed: even when presented with an image of his younger self, Jack can't be a much better father than his own father was.
There's no doubt in my mind that the tractor driving scene was added, and the "tutor" conversation (merely referred to in the story) was dramatized, to make Jack seem like a better father. But it's true that he doesn't have as strong a bond as Ennis seems to have with his girls. Even the one dialogue scene he has with Bobby is more a territorial squabble with L.D. than any direct conversation with his son.
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - bing-57 (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:18:11 )
> who exactly is on the other end of the line.
I disagree. I really don't think Lureen is that quick or observant. I think, at best, she realized that Ennis was a better friend to Jack than she ever could be and that made her sad. I don't think she ever figured out the real nature of their friendship.
> meaning "his wishes" about his love for Ennis, and his desires to be with Ennis
You are giving her way more credit than she has earned. This is the 80s in rural Texas. Even if she realizes that Jack and Ennis were lovers, she probably doesn't realize that a man can have particularly deep or emotional ties to another man. She probably has no clue to what Jack's wishes and dreams really were (especially if she only just realized who Ennis was moments earlier).
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - rtprod (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:25:55 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 12:34:15
SPOILERS
I think that is exactly Anne Hathaway's intention in the scene. Why do you think she tears up when she hears his remark about Brokeback? This suddenly gives her perspective on why she has spent twenty years in a cold marriage and why her husband ran back to this man for so many years, to a paradise she did not know with him. Lureen deserves credit -- she's pretty sharp, just didn't think to look at one particular angle until it all snaps into place. This is why Anne Hathaway, the actress, does so many emotional reversals with Lureen, the character, in the scene. If it were a straight read of the text, the emotional gravity and complexity would be absent, but she has layered it with meanings.
You are putting this in the context of 80s Texas--reality. Instead, you must apply a dramatic, fictional context and perspective to the story and characters, rather than realism. Through this lens, there must always be character realization, growth and change in order for drama to be effective. So saying that in real life Lureen would not have figured this out is actually sort of a moot point, really. Even if that is the case, in this particular story the actress is clearly intending us to look at other levels of understanding.
In this scene, there are dramatic pauses and strategically placed revelations designed to explain and deepen not only Lureen's deceased husband, but her perception and knowledge of what her life has, and has not been. It is a watershed moment for her and Hathaway milks her big scene for all it is worth, after spending the film in a series of short moments that have little cumulative effect. The film is giving Lureen her "due" in that moment.
The way you are describing it, it would just be a standard conversation with no rising emotion. However, it stands in the film as one of the most moving moments of awareness for any of the characters--a hushed counterpoint to Alma's shocking earlier discovery.
"The huge sadness of the northern plains rolled down on him..."
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - reannawrites (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:40:01 )
i agree rtprod...Each line was heavy with emotion and subtext. She knew.
Re: The 'unplanned' child
by - milena-covic (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:41:18 )
Good point about the double standard bkamberger! I totally agree.
But I'd never thought she may have been pregnant by the time they made out in the car. In which scene can you spot a date? (I'm seeing the film this weekend yet again, I'd like to spot this).
Re: Ennis's phone call to Lureen-'about the ashes, I mean'
by - bing-57 (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:44:32 )
> Why do you think she tears up when she hears his remark about Brokeback?
Well, I never understood that. Jack keeps getting picture postcards from Ennis with Brokeback mountain on it (and Jack has a stash of picture postcards somewhere). Jack talks about Brokeback often enough during the marriage. She could have flipped open any atlas and easily found it. She had to be absolutely clueless to not know that Brokeback mountain was a real place.
So, I figure that she was equally clueless about most everything in her husband's life.
> it would just be a standard conversation with no rising emotion
Well, while talking to Ennis she realized that Ennis was a big part of her husband's life that she had missed out on all these years. That would be plenty of emotion for her to tear up, without her realized the real nature of their relationship).
Re: The 'unplanned' child
by - artsybaebe (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:51:43 )
Just thought I'd point out that I had mentioned the possibility of a shotgun wedding a while back on another thread. No one much liked what I wrote about Lureen (fair number of posts), but this thread seems more sympathetic to my viewpoint, so thought I'd mention it:
"We know they had sex at least it once, but for all we know, it could haven the one time in the car--and how unromantic was that? I mean, she was horny as hell, but then says Daddy wants her home with the car by midnight. Did they end up having a shotgun wedding? That would explain, at least in part, why the father was so hostile to Jack (apart from the numerous 'stud-duck' clues we get later on that he and his cohorts also knew he was gay)."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/37160842?d=37160842#37160842 Re: The 'unplanned' child
by - romeshvr (Fri Mar 3 2006 12:59:21 )
Interesting. The throught of Lureen being pregnant before she married Jack occured to me. It is good to know someone else thought about it too. The age mentioned in May 1983 does not add up to me. Jack states his son was 15, that means Bobby must have been born in 1968 or late 1967...
Romesh
Jack Twist to Ennis Del Mar "Am pretty good with a can opener, though."
Re: Maths
by - RobertPlant (Fri Mar 3 2006 14:55:35 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 14:57:45
The rodeo was in August 1966 and the reunion on September 24 1967.
September 24 1967 - 8 months and a half = The first days of January 1967
From August 66 to January 67 there are only 5 months..
but Lureen can't be four months pregnant and do the rodeos
... I think of an error and that Bobby is his son.
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: Maths
by - artsybaebe (Fri Mar 3 2006 15:08:13 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 15:10:38
If your dates are correct, i.e. the rodeo at which she met Jack was in August 1966, and the reunion was 24 September 1967 and Bobby was 8.5 months, then she a) had to have given birth around 12 January. This would almost certainly mean that b) she was already up to 4 mos. pregnant when she met Jack, less if it was born prematurely . . . (is there any talk of that in the baby scene?). but it would absolutely mean that she was already pregnant. This is very interesting indeed . . . does anyone else have these details? Is this math correct?
Re: Maths
by - milena-covic (Fri Mar 3 2006 15:48:57 )
Thank you, you have given me another good reason to go back and watch the movie this weekend. I'll try to spot the date of the rodeo and get back to you (the famed "reunion" takes place on Oct 24th 1967, definitely, and Jack says his son is 8 months old).
Re: Maths
by - RobertPlant (Fri Mar 3 2006 15:49:53 )
The dates are correct, but I still think of an error...Lureen can't be pregnant
and ride horses..(I know, I've three children)
http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=schermata30hf.png Rodeo: August 7/14 1966 (after July 4 1966 fireworks scene)
http://img428.imageshack.us/my.php?image=post29hs.png reunion September 24 1967
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: Maths
by - artsybaebe (Fri Mar 3 2006 15:55:23 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 15:56:11
No, Robert, . . . women can in fact do lots of physical activities whilst pregnant . . . there are women who run marathons in advanced states of pregnancy . . .
Also, is it 24 October or 24 September?
Re. Maths
by - RobertPlant (Fri Mar 3 2006 16:00:54 )
September on the postcard (this doesn't exclude October 24 as date for their reunion)
PS
I'm a woman!!!
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: Maths
by - artsybaebe (Fri Mar 3 2006 16:02:18 )
Wow, I just looked at your pics with the dates. That is paying amazingly close attention!! Good for you!
Re: Maths
by - RobertPlant (Fri Mar 3 2006 16:03:57 )
That's a sign of obsession...
I'm packing my bags for the Misty Mountains
over the hills where the spirits fly
Re: Maths
by - delalluvia (Fri Mar 3 2006 17:32:11 )
UPDATED Fri Mar 3 2006 19:54:17
Yes, you are correct arts. By the timeline of the movie, Lureen should have already been pregnant when she met Jack.
Obviously, since there is never any hint in the movie or in the story that Bobby ISN'T Jack's, it's very likely just a movie goof.
The story doesn't say when Lureen and Jack meet.
The movie added in the fireworks scene which dated itself, and since the movie is - except for the flashback scenes - linear in time, the fact that Jack meets Lureen after the fireworks scene and there is the banner at the rodeo with the date adds to the goof.
Yes, L.D. could be sore imagining Jack knocked up his daughter, but assuming the pregnancy gaffe is true, his treatment of Jack could also easily be a result of him knowing his lovely, intelligent, college-educated daughter married beneath her - a high school dropout with no money and no prospects.
As for Lureen's comment about the ashes...it may be a last attempt on her part to actually DO something Jack wanted since he never had any satisfaction about anything else in his life. She knew OF Brokeback Mountain ("knowing Jack, it might have been some make-believe place where bluebirds sing and there's a whisky spring") but she also emphasized Jack drank a lot. So perhaps he only mentioned Brokeback Moutain when he was drunk? That would allow Lureen to imagine Brokeback as nothing but a fantasy. But when Ennis mentions it perhaps the memory of Jack's drunken probably wistful longings about it suddenly become real to her and makes her realize her husband was actually pining for a real place. That can be a painful realization and could lead to Lureen choking up at that point.
Team Jolie
Re: Maths
by - BannerHill (Fri Mar 3 2006 17:45:49 )
Great Thread.
When Lureen says she supposes They would want his wishes carried out.....about the ASHES, it says a lot. It says that, in general Jack's wishes are NOT caried out, but that, in this case, they might as well be.
Also, and more specifically, it is possible that she had a sense that Jack was gay and wanted to be gay and live with a man. Perhaps she is suggesting that this is a wish of Jack's that she is aware of but that she does not want to have carried out.
It is apparant to me that she is making it clear that there are wishes of Jack's that are NOT to be carried out
"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"
