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Cellar Scribblings

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Jeff Wrangler:
Since I've never had a dog in the race (i.e., no kids), I've paid next to no attention to school issues. I just pay my taxes. I'm not even completely sure I understand funding. I know I pay taxes to support the local schools. School districts also receive money from the state; I have no idea where that money comes from. I know there is a perpetual conflict over funding. The claim, which I'm sure is true, is that wealthy districts (higher tax bases) receive proportionately more money from the state than they need, while poorer districts, like Philadelphia, don't receive as much as they need.

As for schools themselves, I've never got the concept of "middle school." Obviously, it works, because it's been around for, what, 40 years now? "In my day," school was elementary school (grades kindergarten--6), junior high school (7--9), and high school (10--12). I was 14 when I started 9th grade, and 17 when I started 12th grade. I've always wondered at the wisdom of having 14-year-olds going to school with 17-year-olds (because of levels of maturity, and because teenagers can be just plain awful people), but, as I said, clearly it works.

Incidentally, my junior high school is now a middle school. I graduated (actually, correct grammar is "was graduated") from high school 45 years ago next month.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 11, 2021, 12:54:32 pm ---I know there is a perpetual conflict over funding. The claim, which I'm sure is true, is that wealthy districts (higher tax bases) receive proportionately more money from the state than they need, while poorer districts, like Philadelphia, don't receive as much as they need.
--- End quote ---

I wonder if that means not that wealthier districts receive more, but that poorer districts, with smaller property tax bases need more help? I mean surely only a pretty evil state would shower more money on richer districts. Here, I believe state funding is paid out equally to all districts on a per-pupil basis. But, I was thinking later, residents of districts do occasionally vote on referendums that would raise their property taxes to pay for school programs or equipment, and of course wealthier districts are more likely to be on board with that. On the other hand, poorer districts may qualify for special programs.

In that chart I looked at earlier, almost all districts in MN spend $10-$15,000 per student. But wealthier districts (median incomes over $100K) are at the lower end of that range, whereas really poor districts (incomes more like  $35,000K) sometimes get far more per pupil, sometimes even over $20,000. I think those are probably primarily Indian reservations that receive extra assistance.


--- Quote ---As for schools themselves, I've never got the concept of "middle school." Obviously, it works, because it's been around for, what, 40 years now? "In my day," school was elementary school (grades kindergarten--6), junior high school (7--9), and high school (10--12). I was 14 when I started 9th grade, and 17 when I started 12th grade. I've always wondered at the wisdom of having 14-year-olds going to school with 17-year-olds (because of levels of maturity, and because teenagers can be just plain awful people), but, as I said, clearly it works.

Incidentally, my junior high school is now a middle school. I graduated (actually, correct grammar is "was graduated") from high school 45 years ago next month.
--- End quote ---

I actually think "junior high" might have been the anomaly invented for boomers. I've read novels about early 1900s kids going to four-year high schools. I do remember walking my older son to his first day of middle school -- 6th grade - thinking he seemed like a young kid while there were 8th graders with tree-trunk legs and facial hair. My son was fine because he's not easily intimidated but I can see it being a problem for some kids. However, I think the school kept the ages pretty separate.

My junior high is also now a middle school and I also graduated 45 years ago. However, I'm not buying "was graduated" because I've hardly ever heard anyone use that form in speech or even in writing in those 45 years. Besides, the agency of graduation -- and thus the verb -- seems to belong more to the student than the school. Language has moved on.  ;D

Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: serious crayons on May 11, 2021, 07:57:15 pm ---I wonder if that means not that wealthier districts receive more, but that poorer districts, with smaller property tax bases need more help? I mean surely only a pretty evil state would shower more money on richer districts.
--- End quote ---

Welcome to Pennsylvania. I suppose it may be proportional. They need more help but they're not getting more help. And it doesn't help that Philadelphia is solidly Democratic, while the state legislature is controlled by Republicans, some of whom come from districts in counties that have more deer than people.



--- Quote ---I actually think "junior high" might have been the anomaly invented for boomers. I've read novels about early 1900s kids going to four-year high schools.
--- End quote ---

I can see that at a time when lots of kids' education ended at 8th grade. My grandmother attended a one-room country school with grades 1--8. Her formal education ended at the 8th grade. (Four years later she was married to my grandfather and pregnant with my dad. I think I've told this story before. In her last year of school, my grandmother was given an award by her teacher for not misspelling a single word in spelling tests for the whole term. The award was a pocket-sized New Testament. Imagine the uproar now if a public school teacher gave a Bible to a kid.)



--- Quote ---My junior high is also now a middle school and I also graduated 45 years ago. However, I'm not buying "was graduated" because I've hardly ever heard anyone use that form in speech or even in writing in those 45 years. Besides, the agency of graduation -- and thus the verb -- seems to belong more to the student than the school. Language has moved on.  ;D

--- End quote ---

The agency does not belong to the student. Students don't graduate themselves. The school graduates them. It gives them high school degrees.  ;D

Language moves on, just not always for the better.

Penthesilea:

--- Quote from: serious crayons on May 11, 2021, 11:57:37 am ---So at that point would they be about 11? Kids here start kindergarten (thanks, German language!) generally at five, so 3.5 seems shockingly early but 11 still seems like an early age to set children on their life's destiny.
--- End quote ---


Today children are around 10, when the decision is made. (starting school around 6, then 3.5 years into their school career).
Their life's destiny is however not set in stone by the recommendation/decision. Like I said earlier, they can and do move up and down between school levels.



--- Quote ---Here, theoretically, a kid who was terrible in elementary school and high school could go to college, study really hard and become a scientist. It doesn't happen a lot because there are other obstacles -- including the kid's own abilities -- but if it did happen it wouldn't be especially shocking.
--- End quote ---


Here, a kid who was terrible in elementary school and all the years through lowest level school, can continue school after having graduated. They need to pass the graduation, no matter how bad they pass it. Then there are specific schools which build on that. For example, instead of one more year from lowest to middle level of graduation, you take your lowest level graduation first, then go to a specific school for two more years then take your middle level graduation.

I'll give you my nephew as an example: he wasn't the fastest learner as a child. Went to lowest level school, but still had to fight hard to get medium grades. But he did it. After that he continued with two more years of a specific school, then graduated middle school. After that he went to yet another school (I forgot how many years) and finally made his Abitur (graduation from high level school) and started to study. He needed quite some additional years than the 13 regular years, but he made it!

If you start out at lowest level school and stop your school career after the lowest level graduation, you can not become a scientist. You can not go to university, you can not study, you will probably not have a successful high-level career.
But you can always add more school years on different schools to get a higher level of graduation.



My nephew is also a good example of the unfairness of our school system: he had very supportive parents. They didn't care how long he needed/wanted to go to school, the supported and financed everything, no questions asked.

Other parents, who either don't see the value in education or otherwise can not or don't want to support their children - well, tough luck for the kids. Some, but not many, can make it out of a family like that. And herein lays the unfairness. Children of immigrants with bad language skills and poor people have not enough chances in our school system.





--- Quote ---
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/best-countries-for-education

I have no basis for comparison. Do you remember any specific things you've heard teenagers say were easy compared to what they'd get in Germany?
--- End quote ---


Specific things:
"The US kids learn the same stuff on the same level we did 2 or 3 years earlier"
For whatever reason, Math was often an example. "What they learn in 10th class, we learned in 8th class".
Another subject was the level of knowledge regarding foreign languages. I have some direct experiences here, too. I had quite some American exchange students in my home, and none of them spoke a single word of German! They had l learned the language for some years, that was the reason they were in the exchange program to begin with. I know, teenagers can be shy, it was not a representative sample, etc. Just my experience.




Chuckie: sorry to hog your blog.

Haven't read Jeff's posts yet!

Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: Penthesilea on May 12, 2021, 04:16:55 am ---Another subject was the level of knowledge regarding foreign languages. I have some direct experiences here, too. I had quite some American exchange students in my home, and none of them spoke a single word of German! They had l learned the language for some years, that was the reason they were in the exchange program to begin with. I know, teenagers can be shy, it was not a representative sample, etc. Just my experience.

--- End quote ---

I think you don't really learn a language until you can think in it. I had five years of French (  :P  ) and two of German. I was fine reading both languages. I was even told by a college professor of German, herself a native German speaker, that my accent was so good she wondered if we spoke German at home! But that was all reading, and reading aloud from texts, not speaking it in ordinary conversation. It seems to me that if you have to think in your first language, then translate it in your head before you can say it in a different language, that doesn't lend itself very well to conversation.

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