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what do you believe?
forsythia12:
"There is no divorce."
Now, for those who know me here, I'm a feminist of the old school. I believe that women being able to divorce is one of the powers women wrested from men to give them opportunity to be something other than chattel in society. Women have the power and the strength now to divorce unsuitable/abusive spouses.
There was no way I thought that it was right that there was no divorce and that Jesus supported the Hebrew bible rules that if one did divorce, one was committing adultery. In a Christian world, one was bound for hell for adultery if you were not sorry, and I knew the reasons my mother got divorced 3 times and my sister 1. There was no way they were ever going to be "sorry" they got divorced. And so there were going to hell? Women were all going to hell for divorcing abusive/bad husbands?
thank you ZK. that was very interesting. yes, i too struggled with the divorce thing. my mom did a lot of divorcing, and as a married woman with a marriage that has had many, many ups and downs, i have considered it from time to time.
i'm going to play 'god's advocate' for a minute, if you don't mind. about being an adulterous if one divorces, well, i think the bible points out the sin of our actions, and what the consequences would've been had jesus not have died for our sins. no, i people don't go to hell for divorce, but the whole message of the bible is that we are sinners, and our sin is not god's plan, as god says "i hate divorce". the bible is full of "don'ts" and i think the point is only to show how we absolutely cannot live up to god's standards, or refrain from sin, thus, we needed jesus to 'pay the price' for us. the message is that we can't do it alone, we can't abstain from sin, therefore we cannot be made perfect for god...except that jesus took on all the sin of the world for us, and paid the penalty, and if we claim him as our savior, we will be made clean through him.
i'm sorry, i'm not trying to preach. i'm just trying to explain what most christians believe about the impossible 'don'ts' in the bible. i'm not trying to change your mind, and i fully respect your belief. i'm just stating the 'other' side, if you will.
also, i think god hates divorce because a lot of the time it's based on serving #1...rather than putting one's spouses' needs ahead of one's own. we live in a world that teaches "whatever makes YOU happy", and we are used to looking out for ourselves first and formost. this is not all a bad thing, but it can be if we're consumed with ourselves rather than others.
anyways, divorce is on the rise now, and i don't think it's god's desire that we all get divorced. i think a lot of marriages suffer because we've forgotten how to give, but rather focus on recieving. you may disagree with me, and let me point out that god would never ask a woman to stay with a horrible husband. abuse, violence, adultery, or anything else that's harmfull, unproductive, or toxic is nothing to put up with, and warrents a divorce most definately. god said "husbands, LOVE your wives, and give yourself up for her as christ gave himself up for the church." so , god wants men to put their wives needs above and beyond their own, and anything less, is not god's way....
i know i sound preachy, and i don't mean to be. i'm just responding from a different viewpoint, just to keep this thread going, and to show many sides of our belief system today.
keep posting. i'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
:)
delalluvia:
1) is there an absolute truth?
To quote Pontius Pilate "What is truth?" No, there isn't. Truth is sometimes- oftentimes - a matter of perspective here on earth, so the idea that there is One Absolute Truth or absolute anything for that matter runs against what is the usual case.
2) is there right and wrong? (if so, what determines that?)
No, not really. Right and wrong are pretty much subjective and determined by society and time.
3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)
From my religious path? No. There is an afterlife where you have to account for your life, and if you've done bad, then you will be punished according to the degree of your evil-doing - but one is not punished forever. Everyone else goes to the standard afterlife. It's a nice place.
4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?
No.
(5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?
No. If you're talking one god, then no, he can encompass all - like the Christian god. He created everything so that means he created evil as well. He is complete unto himself, so he is good/bad/everything in between.
6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)
Yep.
--- Quote from: forsythia12 on February 19, 2008, 02:12:37 pm ---
"There is no divorce."
Now, for those who know me here, I'm a feminist of the old school. I believe that women being able to divorce is one of the powers women wrested from men to give them opportunity to be something other than chattel in society. Women have the power and the strength now to divorce unsuitable/abusive spouses.
There was no way I thought that it was right that there was no divorce and that Jesus supported the Hebrew bible rules that if one did divorce, one was committing adultery. In a Christian world, one was bound for hell for adultery if you were not sorry, and I knew the reasons my mother got divorced 3 times and my sister 1. There was no way they were ever going to be "sorry" they got divorced. And so there were going to hell? Women were all going to hell for divorcing abusive/bad husbands?
yes, i too struggled with the divorce thing. my mom did a lot of divorcing, and as a married woman with a marriage that has had many, many ups and downs, i have considered it from time to time.
i'm going to play 'god's advocate' for a minute, if you don't mind.
about being an adulterous if one divorces, well, i think the bible points out the sin of our actions, and what the consequences would've been had jesus not have died for our sins. no, i people don't go to hell for divorce, but the whole message of the bible is that we are sinners, and our sin is not god's plan, as god says "i hate divorce". the bible is full of "don'ts" and i think the point is only to show how we absolutely cannot live up to god's standards, or refrain from sin, thus, we needed jesus to 'pay the price' for us. the message is that we can't do it alone, we can't abstain from sin, therefore we cannot be made perfect for god...except that jesus took on all the sin of the world for us, and paid the penalty, and if we claim him as our savior, we will be made clean through him.
i'm sorry, i'm not trying to preach. i'm just trying to explain what most christians believe about the impossible 'don'ts' in the bible. i'm not trying to change your mind, and i fully respect your belief. i'm just stating the 'other' side, if you will.
also, i think god hates divorce because a lot of the time it's based on serving #1...rather than putting one's spouses' needs ahead of one's own. we live in a world that teaches "whatever makes YOU happy", and we are used to looking out for ourselves first and formost. this is not all a bad thing, but it can be if we're consumed with ourselves rather than others.
anyways, divorce is on the rise now, and i don't think it's god's desire that we all get divorced. i think a lot of marriages suffer because we've forgotten how to give, but rather focus on recieving. you may disagree with me, and let me point out that god would never ask a woman to stay with a horrible husband. abuse, violence, adultery, or anything else that's harmfull, unproductive, or toxic is nothing to put up with, and warrents a divorce most definately. god said "husbands, LOVE your wives, and give yourself up for her as christ gave himself up for the church." so , god wants men to put their wives needs above and beyond their own, and anything less, is not god's way....
:)
--- End quote ---
[/size]
OK, but to play devil's advocate right back at you, what you are saying from the 'other side' is pretty much what Jesus said - that humankind just rationalizes away their sin.
I didn't take the Bible literally when it suggested some impossible things - the Devil flying Jesus up to a mountaintop where he could "see all the kingdoms of the world". Well, there is no such mountain, so I can take that story allegorically.
But when Jesus said something mundane very clearly why would anyone believe they have to "explain" that as well? There is no "explaining" what he meant by no divorce. He meant what he said.
There was abuse in marriages back then as well - abuse and who knows what all. Do not think for an instant that there wasn't. Yet Jesus still supported no divorce.
To say that he meant something other than that is just rationalization.
The Christian Bible is a guideline for living. It's not impossible to do now. The Amish come pretty close to doing it. It's that many modern people who call themselves Christians don't want to lead those kinds of lives, so they rationalize and explain away what they don't want to do.
So back to your "other side" opinion, you're saying Jesus meant "no divorce" but only until he was crucified, then it didn't matter what anyone did so long as they were sorry about it afterwards because he died for our sins.
If that's the case, then there are no guidelines whatsoever.
The people who lived closer to Jesus' time certainly didn't believe that. They still stoned people, imprisoned people, and exiled them for not hewing to Jesus' teachings - the ones before he was crucified.
I don't believe that the Christian bible is just a book of suggestions for better living that you are free to wander off of whenever it suits you.
You can, of course, but you will pay the price.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: injest on February 03, 2008, 09:50:16 am ---I have been looking at some of the Native American belief systems and the idea of a Spirit (or God) as a connecting force is comforting to me.
--- End quote ---
In the Star Wars films, the Force is "an energy field created by all living things, that surrounds and penetrates living beings and binds the galaxy together."
I can certainly get behind this belief, too. :)
forsythia12:
well, i'm not sure how to take your last entery delalluvia. the tone sounded very......cold. i'm not sure why you think i make up my own version of what jesus said. no i didn't. if you take scripture, you need to look at the context it is written in, and you need to look at the other scriptures revolving around that topic , and the bible says that HUSBANDS OUGHT TO LOVE THEIR WIVES AND GIVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER. that is NOT taking jesus command and making it my own, and i resent that. yes, there was abuse then, as there is now, and no, it was ungodly for a man to do that. there are other scriptures that back that up, so please don't put modern christians in a box and label them.
as far as amish people. yes, they live peaceful lives, but they too are also affected by 'the fall' and are considered to have sin in their lives (in the christian faith), and they too need to rely on god for their strength and purity. the bible says we ARE supposed to work at the commands, and work out our salvation, but we cannnot save ourselves by our own merit, which is like the pharisees who were strongly rebuked by god becuase they depended on their own works, and not god.
as far as no divorce except after jesus' death, no, that's not what i meant either. the bible is in two sections. old and new testament. the old testement shows us the LAW of god, given to the jews under moses. the new testament is how we can obtain salvation, which is "not by works alone!", but rather what jesus did on the cross.
i really don't understand why you thought i meant anything otherwise. i was being quite polite, and i find your reply very rude. indirect warnings of me 'paying the price' for what i choose to believe? you've proclaimed yourself as a neo pagan who's left the christian way behind, yet you tell me if i don't live up to biblical standards, i'm going to pay the price?
this post is supposed to be friendly, not pointing fingers. i was just trying to explain some passages in the bible about divorce, in response to some interesting things you had to say in your earlier post.
i'm very offended and upset. this was not my intention for this thread, and it was meant to be a SAFE place to discuss religious matters, therefore, if this becomes offensive or argumentative, then, i suppose this thread will have to be locked by a moderator.
delalluvia:
Well, let me start off this way Forsynthia, I apologize if you were offended, that was not my intention at all. You asked for my opinion and I gave it as matter of fact and as objectively as possible.
The "you" in "You will pay the price" was an editorial 'you'. It didn't mean you in particular.
It is my belief that that is the way it will go for such people.
I understand completely if others don't believe the same.
But these are my beliefs and that's what you asked for. I'm sorry if they make you uncomfortable, but there's not much I can do about that.
--- Quote from: forsythia12 on February 19, 2008, 08:14:54 pm ---well, i'm not sure how to take your last entery delalluvia. the tone sounded very......cold. i'm not sure why you think i make up my own version of what jesus said. no i didn't. if you take scripture, you need to look at the context it is written in, and you need to look at the other scriptures revolving around that topic, and the bible says that HUSBANDS OUGHT TO LOVE THEIR WIVES AND GIVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER. that is NOT taking jesus command and making it my own, and i resent that. yes, there was abuse then, as there is now, and no, it was ungodly for a man to do that. there are other scriptures that back that up, so please don't put modern christians in a box and label them.
--- End quote ---
Certainly, and I did. See, here is where I and the Christian bible parted ways. Yes, the Bible says husbands ought to love their wives, but Jesus also said he didn't come to cancel the laws of Moses - meaning rules on adultery. So he says both. Which one did he mean? According to my bible, he's saying this to a crowd and his disciples. What do you think he meant? Pretty much what he said.
--- Quote ---as far as amish people. yes, they live peaceful lives, but they too are also affected by 'the fall' and are considered to have sin in their lives (in the christian faith), and they too need to rely on god for their strength and purity. the bible says we ARE supposed to work at the commands, and work out our salvation, but we cannnot save ourselves by our own merit, which is like the pharisees who were strongly rebuked by god becuase they depended on their own works, and not god.
--- End quote ---
True, but Matthew 5:16 and 1 Peter 2:12 state that good works also glorify god, so there's that contradiction.
--- Quote ---as far as no divorce except after jesus' death, no, that's not what i meant either. the bible is in two sections. old and new testament. the old testement shows us the LAW of god, given to the jews under moses. the new testament is how we can obtain salvation, which is "not by works alone!", but rather what jesus did on the cross.
--- End quote ---
See above answer.
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