Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.
forsythia12:
--- Quote from: southendmd on March 11, 2008, 01:05:23 pm ---Getting back on topic...
I always thought it interesting that Jack and Ennis can easily talk about women: in fact, it's Jack who starts it when he says "all this time you ain't found no one else to marry"--->Ennis mentions Cassie --->Jack lies about the ranch foreman's wife. There's no obvious jealousy at all.
To me, that's their "pact": "We ain't queer."
When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis. Ennis sort of cowers in response.
I always wondered if Ennis felt too threatened by this, and "made up" the story about August.
Jack certainly looked dejected that next morning. Is he expecting yet another rejection from Ennis?
Then, the whole Mexico thing, confirming Jack is queer. Which means Ennis is queer. Their pact is broken. I think it's less out of jealousy or cheating, but about Ennis being confronted with who he really is. Ennis makes his threat, then the pathetic "it's cuz of you I'm like this".
Ending with the "can't stand this anymore, Jack". Coming from the man who originally said "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it".
Can't fix it. Can't stand it.
--- End quote ---
thank you.
in fact, thanks to all of you for your responses. i never looked at it like this. the fact that they had women as their cover because they were in denial about being gay......or at least jack was for a long time. and i never thought about their 'one shot deal' pact they had. very good responses.
when jack said "all this time and you still haven't found someone to marry" ( close enough)...do you think there was more to this question? maybe he wanted to bring up how lonely it was only having someone around a couple times a year. could he have been setting up a confession about mexico? or any other man? i can't really see him doing this, but i always wondered about how jack went from a conversation about marrying another person, screwing a foreman's wife, and then to how much he missed ennis.
jack made it sound like he totally expected ennnis to get married, but would he have been upset if ennis did have a fiance?
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: forsythia12 on March 11, 2008, 02:08:14 pm ---thank you.
in fact, thanks to all of you for your responses. i never looked at it like this. the fact that they had women as their cover because they were in denial about being gay......or at least jack was for a long time. and i never thought about their 'one shot deal' pact they had. very good responses.
when jack said "all this time and you still haven't found someone to marry" ( close enough)...do you think there was more to this question? maybe he wanted to bring up how lonely it was only having someone around a couple times a year. could he have been setting up a confession about mexico? or any other man? i can't really see him doing this, but i always wondered about how jack went from a conversation about marrying another person, screwing a foreman's wife, and then to how much he missed ennis.
jack made it sound like he totally expected ennnis to get married, but would he have been upset if ennis did have a fiance?
--- End quote ---
I think Jack is able to talk about Ennis getting married, the "foreman's wife" and then how much he misses Ennis... because any talk about women is, as was said by southendmd, all about their pact. They're even posturing about their masculinity with each other. It's a total act, and by this time I think they're almost consciously aware that it's an act. Neither of them got married out of love and Ennis dating Cassie continues to be about his image. I think there's a tacit understanding between Ennis and Jack that their relationship is the real one and the meaningful one for the two of them.
I don't think Jack had any intention initially of telling about Mexico. Ennis figured it out, and then Jack didn't back down. I think once Ennis figures out the Mexico secret... Jack, in anger, uses this in a new way to demonstrate to Ennis how miserable he's been. With the explosive argument by the lake, all sorts of topics are finally revealed that had always been kept below the surface before.
forsythia12:
--- Quote from: atz75 on March 11, 2008, 02:17:43 pm ---I think Jack is able to talk about Ennis getting married, the "foreman's wife" and then how much he misses Ennis... because any talk about women is, as was said by southendmd, all about their pact. They're even posturing about their masculinity with each other. It's a total act, and by this time I think they're almost consciously aware that it's an act. Neither of them got married out of love and Ennis dating Cassie continues to be about his image. I think there's a tacit understanding between Ennis and Jack that their relationship is the real one and the meaningful one for the two of them.
I don't think Jack had any intention initially of telling about Mexico. Ennis figured it out, and then Jack didn't back down. I think once Ennis figures out the Mexico secret... Jack, in anger, uses this in a new way to demonstrate to Ennis how miserable he's been. With the explosive argument by the lake, all sorts of topics are finally revealed that had always been kept below the surface before.
--- End quote ---
true....
thanks friend
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: southendmd on March 11, 2008, 01:05:23 pm ---When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis. Ennis sort of cowers in response.
--- End quote ---
While I'm not disagreeing here, putting this exchange in the context of Jack's statement being awfully close to saying "I love you" also reminds me of my own conviction of Ennis's shyness. I think he's the kind of person made uncomfortable by any discussion of emotions. Even at the very end of the film, after all he's been through, it's still awfully difficult for him to ask Junior if Kurt loves her. I don't think that's only because he's come to understand how much he lost when Jack died. I think it's also because talking about emotional issues in general makes him uncomfortable.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on March 11, 2008, 02:27:49 pm ---While I'm not disagreeing here, putting this exchange in the context of Jack's statement being awfully close to saying "I love you" also reminds me of my own conviction of Ennis's shyness. I think he's the kind of person made uncomfortable by any discussion of emotions. Even at the very end of the film, after all he's been through, it's still awfully difficult for him to ask Junior if Kurt loves her. I don't think that's only because he's come to understand how much he lost when Jack died. I think it's also because talking about emotional issues in general makes him uncomfortable.
--- End quote ---
Oh yes, I completely agree with you about this.
And, on the flip side, I think Jack is desperate to have some discussions about emotions (get emotional validation from Ennis in some way).
So frustrating for both of them. And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).
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