When did Jack's "gaydar" go off?

[BlissC]

Interesting question arising from the the Sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity thread where discussing the Pentecost and sinners Jack says "guys like you and me"...

I think this is a really good question... about what Jack was implying with the statement, "guys like you and me".  What exactly was Jack seeing in Ennis that he already understood to be in common with himself?  I don't recall this particular statement being discussed much in depth before... so this could be a really interesting point of discussion.

Maybe this is a little moment of revelation (to the audience) about Jack's level of "gaydar" when it comes to his understanding of Ennis.  But, a first-time viewer wouldn't know yet about the sexual relationship that develops between Jack and Ennis.  So, an analysis of his statement in that regard has to happen a bit in retrospect.

Has Jack's gaydar gone off? Is this the moment he realises (and the audience gets their first inkling) that maybe, just maybe the summer might hold a bit more interest than just sitting around counting woolies? How about Ennis's response?

Thoughts?

[optom3]

I think Jack has definitely got Ennis sussed by the time of the "fellas  like you and I" conversation.(In fact maybe even right from the start in the trailer.)
Ennis laughs at this in the film and says he has not had the opportunity to sin yet. I always took that laugh, and slight look that Ennis gives Jack,and it is very slight,almost as a precursor to what is going to happen.like a very very subtle come on, that stops short.
It is of course not quite a come on by Ennis,but maybe there is a hint there,He is way too shy and subtle for outright suggestion.I do though think that it could taken as , are you going to introduce me to sin then.

It is  particularly interesting that in the conversation, Ennis does not try and deny or protest,the fellas like you and us part,or even question it.Just says he hasnt had the opportunity yet.

Also in both the book and film in TS1 it is Ennis who takes control.It is not as if he is the passive one.Ditto the reunion scene.
 However reluctant Ennis may be to accept the truth,he knows it somewhere,very deep inside and Jack recognises that almost from the word go.

No matter how much all the anti gays may rant,the majority of gay men can recognise signs in others.It may suit the homophobes to think otherwise,but it is just idiotic .No one unless particulary nasty or stupid, gay or staright,is going to run the risk of humiliation and rejection,by making a pass that is going to end in a bloody nose or worse.
I think it is often missed just how sensitive Jack is, as regards his "gaydar"It is hardly as if Ennis is sending out smoke signals!!!!
But then that is the beauty of the book and film,its genius subtleties.

[Artiste]

Wow, wow!!

Interesting!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[myprivatejack]

As Jack got attracted to Ennis from the very moment they met,I think this words are a way to "check Ennis out",it's to say,just to know how he answered to them.We must bear in mind that Ennis had been doing his best just to please Jack: swifting each other jobs, commanding soup instead of so many beans cans,killing the elk... Do you think that all this details answer to a way to thank his fellow? For sharing duties and loneliness up in the mountain and for making him be more open,laugh,LIVE more than never before, or for anything more?.
Jack needed to have also an answer to this and have,in this way,a hope that his feelings could be sharing for his friend.And I think this one gave him a hint not saying a word to this "...guys like you and me"; however,it's possible that Ennis-who was struggling between WHAT HE MUST DO and WHAT HE WANTED TO DO-took these words in the sense of "some uprooted,poor and rough guys like you and me".Or that a side of him WANTED to take these words into this meaning,of course...What do you think?.
But immediately after that,he says this stuff of "his opportunities" that is clearly a flirting with Jack;for me much more than a mere trust in a friend whom you have opened yourself,speaking about your life more than with nobody else before...And the glance with he ends this phrase,wow¡...it speaks volumes about something that was on the air.And that few hours after,the alcohol helped to "explode",giving them a little push.

[BlissC]

Ennis laughs at this in the film and says he has not had the opportunity to sin yet. I always took that laugh, and slight look that Ennis gives Jack,and it is very slight,almost as a precursor to what is going to happen.like a very very subtle come on, that stops short.
It is of course not quite a come on by Ennis,but maybe there is a hint there,He is way too shy and subtle for outright suggestion.I do though think that it could taken as , are you going to introduce me to sin then.

It is  particularly interesting that in the conversation, Ennis does not try and deny or protest,the fellas like you and us part,or even question it.Just says he hasn't had the opportunity yet.

That's how I see it too. As you say, it's the subtleties of the story and the film that are so telling. Am I right in thinking though that this particular scene isn't in the story? I've looked, and as far as I can see, unless it's mentioned again later, the story says simply "he favoured a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus", learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost".

But immediately after that,he says this stuff of "his opportunities" that is clearly a flirting with Jack;for me much more than a mere trust in a friend whom you have opened yourself,speaking about your life more than with nobody else before...And the glance with he ends this phrase,wow¡...it speaks volumes about something that was on the air.

That's it! That's the word I was looking for! It does seem, especially with the kind of half smile he gives, as though in his own shy way Ennis is flirting with Jack.

As you say, it's also very clear that right from the start that Ennis is doing everything that he can to take care of Jack - from switching jobs, ordering the soup, etc., which would suggest that Ennis too has feelings for Jack from very early up on the mountain.

I find this scene very interesting because on the one hand, as has been suggested on other threads, Ennis may be talking about he and Alma, which would suggest that he and Alma haven't had sex, suggesting Jack is the first. On the other hand though if Ennis is flirting with Jack and he's talking more about their attraction, that doesn't give anything away about Ennis's relationship with Alma, re-opening the whole debate about who was first.

Wow! The more and more time I spend here debating the ins and outs of the film, and replaying scenes, the more I can see the genius in Ang's directing and in the screenplay.

[Brown Eyes]

I do think that the "opportunity" discussion is one of the first possible indications of mutual "flirting" that might be perceptible to some viewers (but probably not to some).  The way Ennis looks directly at Jack when he says he hasn't yet had the opportunity... whether or not he means it... by body language alone, he's indicating interest in Jack.

I think there are moments of clear attraction between the two of them much earlier (the "most I've spoke in a year" conversation is probably the best earlier example)... but this seems to be the most overt gesture towards something resembling flirting or trying to really figure each other out.

On their own too, both Jack and Ennis reveal their attraction to one another to the audience (when the other cowboy might now be aware).  Ennis seems to steal glances at Jack (when Jack's on his horse, etc.) in ways that look like he's "checking Jack out."  And, I think Jack reveals his interest in Ennis immediately upon entering the movie (in front of Aguirre's trailer).

[myprivatejack]

From the very moment they met in the beginning of the movie,there's a kind of flirting with their exchanging glances.The difference between them-as in so many questions along the movie...-is that meanwhile Jack is looking at Ennis directly,this one takes a look indirectly,almost hidding himself,when Jack is not aware...It's just like a hint of what their relationship will be from this moment onwards: Jack wanting all directly,without fears,looking always for Ennis,waiting for him to commit;and Ennis escaping from Jack's look,the same than he will always "escapes" from this commitment,running to him,running from him...

[Mandy21]

Also in both the book and film in TS1 it is Ennis who takes control.It is not as if he is the passive one.Ditto the reunion scene.
 However reluctant Ennis may be to accept the truth,he knows it somewhere,very deep inside and Jack recognises that almost from the word go.

I love the way you worded that, Fiona.  This is a great and very interesting thread.  My personal belief is that the "gaydar", so to speak, went off, like Fiona said, "from the word go".  Jack gets out of his truck, kicks it, turns, sees the glory of Ennis, takes two steps forward as if he's going to introduce himself, Ennis lowers his hat/head, shielding his eyes from expressing/revealing any interest whatsoever, and then the camera goes back to a close-up of Jack's face, and there's a look that comes over him, when he sort of nods his head just a little, blinks his eyes knowingly.  From the second time, and every one of the 30 times since then, that I've watched the film, that 4 or 5 second look that he's actually giving to himself, cause Ennis isn't looking -- that look, to me, meant "Ahhh, I see, you're not ready to admit to yourself who you are yet.  Okay, I get it, fine, I can play that game."  I don't know, those were the exact words that have always come to my mind that Jack was thinking to himself when he first laid his eyes on Ennis.  And then he returns to the truck and poses himself there, just ready, able, and willing to start this game, at whatever cost.

Even though I think the interest was there from Ennis's perspective from the start, from the sideways glances in the trailer and the borrowing of the lighter and the revealing of the personal history at the bar, I think he dismissed the possibility as outrageous and improbable, if not impossible.  But he kept it in the back of his mind that day/night.  (Sidebar:  wonder where they spent the night that first night???)  The first time the average viewer gets to actually be privy to any admiration whatsoever between the two is when they're loading up the horses the next morning, and Ennis warns Jack that the horse he's on has a low startle point, and Jack, cockily (is that a word?  if not, it should be.), states that he doubts there's a mare that could throw him, then we see Ennis's face, smiling to himself.  To me, that look meant "man, this is gonna be fun...".

So, those are the two moments IMHO when I think Jack's and Ennis's respective "gaydars" went off about the other.

[Brown Eyes]

I love, love, love the first silent minutes of BBM.  It's like a contemporary demonstration of the best effects possible with silent film. It's just so beautifully filmed too.

So much goes on between Ennis and Jack in that silence.  And, it will always remain totally ambiguous because of the silence.  It makes for really interesting interpretations.

Mandy21, I think your interpretation here is great!

[BlissC]

I agree. I've just checked out that opening scene again, and on reflection I think you're spot on Mandy21 (gonna wear the damned DVD out at this rate the amount of times over the last few days I've replayed scenes to check out some detail or other  lol!)

and there's a look that comes over him, when he sort of nods his head just a little, blinks his eyes knowingly.  From the second time, and every one of the 30 times since then, that I've watched the film, that 4 or 5 second look that he's actually giving to himself, cause Ennis isn't looking -- that look, to me, meant "Ahhh, I see, you're not ready to admit to yourself who you are yet.  Okay, I get it, fine, I can play that game."  I don't know, those were the exact words that have always come to my mind that Jack was thinking to himself when he first laid his eyes on Ennis.  And then he returns to the truck and poses himself there, just ready, able, and willing to start this game, at whatever cost.

Again, yep, I've always though that Jack was posing there for effect, but I'd missed that look/subtle lowering of his head from Ennis. Now you've pointed it out though I can definitely see it.

(Sidebar:  wonder where they spent the night that first night???)

I've wondered that too.

The first time the average viewer gets to actually be privy to any admiration whatsoever between the two is when they're loading up the horses the next morning, and Ennis warns Jack that the horse he's on has a low startle point, and Jack, cockily (is that a word?  if not, it should be.), states that he doubts there's a mare that could throw him, then we see Ennis's face, smiling to himself.  To me, that look meant "man, this is gonna be fun...".

Again, yep, I think you're spot on. Throughout the early part of the film, the clues are very subtle, but right at the start they're very very subtle. (Oh, and yep, I think "cockily" is a word - I certainly remember my mum using it anyhow)

From the very moment they met in the beginning of the movie,there's a kind of flirting with their exchanging glances.The difference between them-as in so many questions along the movie...-is that meanwhile Jack is looking at Ennis directly,this one takes a look indirectly,almost hidding himself,when Jack is not aware...It's just like a hint of what their relationship will be from this moment onwards: Jack wanting all directly,without fears,looking always for Ennis,waiting for him to commit;and Ennis escaping from Jack's look,the same than he will always "escapes" from this commitment,running to him,running from him...

I think that's true also, and I think you're right - the way their whole relationship goes is reflected in the subtle looks they exchange.

I know I've already said this once today, but the more and more you delve deeper into the story and the film, the more you realise the genius of both the directing and the screenplay, and Jake and Heath's acting.