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Talking With Our Enemies
Monika:
--- Quote from: optom3 on May 27, 2008, 11:57:07 am ---I agree, there is a difference between talk at and talk with.In the majority of cases we end up talking at our "enemies" who may appear to listen,but in effect are merely paying lip service.
I have long thought that there is little point in trying to argue with someone whose beliefs are an ideology,by their very nature,these people feel, as opposed to think.It is akin to a gut reaction.You could spend the next decade talking,all to no avail.
--- End quote ---
but we are all a part of an ideology, just different ones. The people who you call "enemies" see your ideology as the "wrong" one and vice versa.
And what is there left if we don´t talk? Fight, kill, till there´s no one left?
I´ve been traveling in the middle east some and lived for a while in Isreal. Let me tell you, no matter religion, ideology, people are the same everywhere. Everyone wants peace and safety for their own families. The people you call "enemies" are not crazy people who love war. I think thinking that is a huge mistake.
I visited among other places the palestinian ares in Israel fo example, and let me tell you, if you had to live like that on a daily basis, you would fight as well.
What has to be done is tdone through diplomacy. Killing people perhaps solves things temporarily but in the long run it creates powerty, and powerty creates desperation. And desperation creates people who are willing to blow themselves up.
optom3:
--- Quote from: buffymon on May 27, 2008, 12:30:10 pm ---but we are all a part of an ideology, just different ones. The people who you call "enemies" see your ideology as the "wrong" one and vice versa.
And what is there left if we don´t talk? Fight, kill, till there´s no one left?
I´ve been traveling in the middle east some and lived for a while in Isreal. Let me tell you, no matter religion, ideology, people are the same everywhere. Everyone wants peace and safety for their own families. The people you call "enemies" are not crazy people who love war. I think thinking that is a huge mistake.
I visited among other places the palestinian ares in Israel fo example, and let me tell you, if you had to live like that on a daily basis, you would fight as well.
What has to be done is tdone through diplomacy. Killing people perhaps solves things temporarily but in the long run it creates powerty, and powerty creates desperation. And desperation creates people who are willing to blow themselves up.
--- End quote ---
I don't think we should be killing them either.So I guess I am hopeless as I cannot see a solution to all the current problems.I know that ultimately the Northern Ireland peace talks and negotiations were partly successful.I am inclined to think that was due in part to the not too dissimilar cultures involved.I know both sides had very very strongly held beliefs in what they were doing,but as I said at least the cultures of the 2 were similar.
I do not see how you can argue with a group whose aim is to convert the whole world to their culture and beliefs. Neither do I suggest that we bomb them all.
I just do not, I suppose understand their culture and beliefs which are so very alien to my own.
There are so many religions in the world,yet to my knowledge at this time,only one which seeks to convert or revert as they call it all other humans.They believe there are no converts because we are all basically born of that faith,we just have yet to realise it.
The Jewish faith I believe is very strong and with good core values,yet seeks not to convert the rest of humanity,it does not mean their belief is less strong or less credible,ditto all Christians, Hindus,Sikhs and every other faith you can name.
I will hold my hands up and say I have no idea how to deal with this "enemy" I just know that the situation concerns me greatly.We have on the whole advanced so much as a civilisation,yet these people if they had their way would set us back hundreds of years.To a time when there were no rights for most,gays,women, you name it.
Can you argue with such deeply held beliefs,I fear not.Would it be ethical to bomb them out of existence,certainly not.
I sometimes feel the only solution is within the faith itself and the fact that different groups within that faith cannot even agree.So maybe they will just solve the problem for us.
My husband worked in the middle East for some time before I knew him.He is to this day shocked at some of the things he saw,in particular the treatment of women and the barbaric, modes of punishment,including public beheading.
I have not made these people my enemy.I was blissful in my ignorant and probably selfish world,until events forced me to pay attention.Now that I have, it seems they seek to make me their enemy not the other way round.I still opposed the war, as I could not see that was the solution.I just don't think that they have any desire to sit round a table and talk with us.
I hope that one day I am proved very wrong and have to eat all these words,I just don't see it in the near future.
Monika:
--- Quote from: optom3 on May 27, 2008, 02:25:43 pm ---
There are so many religions in the world,yet to my knowledge at this time,only one which seeks to convert or revert as they call it all other humans.They believe there are no converts because we are all basically born of that faith,we just have yet to realise it.
--- End quote ---
This I just can´t agree with. This is happening everywhere, and everyone is doing it. Now and in the past.
Historically christians have conquered nations in the name of christianity (the crusades) and in America they tried to "christen" the Native Americans.
Chatolics is a strong power in Africa, trying to pick up as many supporters there as possible.
And I disagree that Islam by any means "seeks to convert..all other humans". This is simply not correct. There are Islam fundamentalist, just as I know there are many exreme right winged people in the US who looks down on any other religion than their own, just as there are jewish fractions that are extreme in their views and talk about destroying Islam. Fanatics can be found in every religion. Most muslims are just like you and me - trying to get through every day life and live the sweet life.
Yes - there are cruilties commited in the name of Islam but this cruilties often don´t have anything to do with the religion itself. I don´t know if you´ve read The Koran, but it´s actually much more peaceful than the Bible. Many of these cruilties exist in societys with a low education standard and where people are poor. Often in rural places. If you walk down a street in the Iranian capital of Teheran for exemple, you wont see any women being stoned to death. These problems are rather social/socio-economic than religious
But I agree, these are complex issues Very complex but hopefully we can solve some of them with time. ???
optom3:
--- Quote from: buffymon on May 27, 2008, 03:33:10 pm ---This I just can´t agree with. This is happening everywhere, and everyone is doing it. Now and in the past.
Historically christians have conquered nations in the name of christianity (the crusades) and in America they tried to "christen" the Native Americans.
Chatolics is a strong power in Africa, trying to pick up as many supporters there as possible.
And I disagree that Islam by any means "seeks to convert..all other humans". This is simply not correct. There are Islam fundamentalist, just as I know there are many exreme right winged people in the US who looks down on any other religion than their own, just as there are jewish fractions that are extreme in their views and talk about destroying Islam. Fanatics can be found in every religion. Most muslims are just like you and me - trying to get through every day life and live the sweet life.
Yes - there are cruilties commited in the name of Islam but this cruilties often don´t have anything to do with the religion itself. I don´t know if you´ve read The Koran, but it´s actually much more peaceful than the Bible. Many of these cruilties exist in societys with a low education standard and where people are poor. Often in rural places. If you walk down a street in the Iranian capital of Teheran for exemple, you wont see any women being stoned to death. These problems are rather social/socio-economic than religious
But I agree, these are complex issues Very complex but hopefully we can solve some of them with time. ???
--- End quote ---
I know the Koran preaches peace, and I know that over the years much harm has been done in the name of many religions,particularly my own,Catholic, which is why I opted out several years ago.In fact one of the most disturbing things to me about pretty much most(not all ) faiths is that so much death and carnage are committed in the name of said faith.
I realise that this is done by the very few extremists in all the faiths concerned,but the extremists have a way of gathering followers.I would suspect that most Germans prior to WW2 were decent law abiding citizens,The idea that they would be either condoning or turning a blind eye to what happened would no doubt have been abhorrent to them. Yet it still happened and in a pretty short space of time.
I had an Optometrist work for me who was in his early twenties,he was more western than me,however following a trip to perform or undertake the Hajj he came back a really changed man.
He was so bitter about the west,he blamed America and to a lesser extent the U.K for all the worlds problems.He really was no longer the same man.Bizarrely though he still complained about taxes and the fact he could not afford as big a house as he wanted.He really did become irrational.Yet previously he had been someone to sit and have a coffee and joke with.No more, he shaved his head and started to grow a beard.I cannot stress enough that he was such an easy going guy before the pilgrimage.
We used to show each other our baby photos,he had a baby daughter about the same age as mine.All that stopped,it became as if I was contaminated.He would no longer eat in the staff room,eating on his own in his exam room.Yet he didn't mind working for me and taking a salary from me.
I gave in or agreed to several things,including his prayer breaks.I refused to move the toilet,so he went down the road to McDonald's as their toilet faced the right way.This trip took away a chunk of his testing time.I did not reduce his salary,but then my other Optometrist,also a Muslim (lady) but less strict,started to complain that it was not fair.He was working less than her for the same pay.Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.
Eventually the problem was solved as I sold the business to move here and it became the new owners problem.He was less wary than me and told him, either extend your day to make up for all the missing time or leave.He left.
If you note I say I do not know what the answer is,and I don't.I sure as hell don't think it is war,but neither can I see a negotiated settling of events.If I am wrong I will be the first in line to admit it and to eat a sackload of humble pie, with or without sauce.
I simply feel that negotiating would work fine with the non extremist majority,unfortunately they are not the problem.As you so rightly say,they are no different to you or I,Wanting to live a peaceful life with our families or whoever, As is always the case one bad apple can rot the whole barrel.
In answer to your question about the Koran.No I have not read it,I read a book called the complete idiot's guide to the Koran.I became sufficiently curious to know something regarding the faith,after the change in one of my members of staff.
I quickly concluded that he had picked the bits out he wanted to.He was happy to have an interest bearing current account,not allowed,but he insisted his wife wore the full head to toe garb.Yet are many interpretations of this.Which is why some women wear tunic,pants and scarf and consider themselves devout Muslims,while others insist only the eyes can show.The part about interest though is pretty unequivocal.
I was also interested on the polygamous side of things,again interpret it as you will,Muslim men are advised to only have one wife,and only to take more,(up to 4) if they feel they can be absolutely equal to all.Most do not but obviously some feel they can distribute themselves completely fairly between all women.
There was a whole lot more,but it struck me as with so many religions,it had been written,long ago in a long lost language and the translation and therefore interpretation is subject to variation.It also struck me that this man had cherry picked the bits that suited him.
One thing that I did not know was that the prophet who delivered the Koran was illiterate.But I was struck by the similarities between some elements and the Christian bible.Both have a god,both have a prophet,Mohammad or Moses(ten commandments) who deliver to the people the "rules" to abide by for living either an Islamic or Christian life.
I never meant this to go on so long, but I did not want to leave you with the impression that I was some right wing bigot.I believe there are good and bad and extremists in all faiths.I also believe that the truly devout feel theres is the only way,Given the number of faiths around,there are going to be some very disappointed people come the day.
I have no more sympathy with a Catholic extremist than I do a Muslim.I knew the owners of an opticians which was blown apart, by the IRA in Manchester.I also had to watch as their insurance company told them they were not covered for acts of terrorism.My own husbands office was in the cordoned off area.
What I do know is that you cannot have reasonable debate or discourse with an extremist of any faith.I am also pretty sure that it is the extremists who cause the problems,not the moderates.However being a moderate myself,I am against war and violence,which seems to leave bit of a catch 22 situation.Again I have no answers.
I will have to get off my soap box one day !!!!!!!! I only visited this post to vote and now look what I have started!!!!!!
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