Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
What if Jack gave Ennis an ultimatum? Come with me to Mexico or it,s over.
tiawahcowboy:
In 1983, in the states west of the Mississippi River and the Rocky Mountain states, for the majority of residents there, "society's attitude" toward homosexuals had changed very little if not at all, except in the larger cities in those states. "Sodomy" was still illegal in those states in 1983.
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: nic on May 30, 2006, 01:02:49 pm ---I think this too (& btw, I've never read it written out so well summarised before). Can't decide if it makes the story more or less tragic. More tragic because a happier ending could have ensued if only Ennis hadn't taken so long to come around or less tragic because at least he knew he was going to make a change.
Maybe both so it cancels out and the ending is just Tragic with a captial T, period !
--- End quote ---
Thanks for the compliment. I'm sometimes not sure whether I'm able to get my point across (English is a foreign language for me).
I always thought it makes the story all the more tragic. Front-Ranger put it in really beautiful words on another thread:
--- Quote ---What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack
--- End quote ---
It was in this thread where we discussed the topic, the "what if Jack hadn't died"
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0
Anyway, I agree about Tragic with a capital T. Never seen a sadder movie in my life.
nic:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on May 30, 2006, 04:59:52 pm ---It was in this thread where we discussed the topic, the "what if Jack hadn't died"
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1259.0
--- End quote ---
Thanks - off to check it out (as if I haven't already read a library's worth of BBM discussion!)
opinionista:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on May 30, 2006, 12:28:37 pm ---For me, it always leeds to November. To the question: what if Jack hadn't died?
There are signs that Ennis started to change. We've discussed them many times. Ennis broke up with Cassie, Ennis was the one who admitted that he couldn't stand it anymore. So at least this was clear to himself and to Jack. He must have had many thoughts about their relationship after their last time together. Look at him in the diner/busstation scene.
Plus, the times and circumstances had changed or were about to change: it wasn't the sixties anymore, but the eighties. Society had changed in it's attitude towards homosexuality. I don't want to say it was all fine, far from that (it's probably far from that today). But at least it was a topic and less of a total taboo. I guess in the 60ies it wasn't even a subject matter of discussions.
And Ennis's girls were nearly adult. The time he had to pay no more child support was foreseeable. That would have given him more choices regarding work. The girls finally grown up and making their owns lives would have given him more freedom. He would not have to "stuck with what he's got" any longer. He would have been responsible only for himself.
I can see development potentialities in Ennis. So in November some things probably would have changed. With or without an ultimatum from Jack.
--- End quote ---
Maybe Ennis was showing a few sign of change but I think it was already too late even if Jack hadn't died. I think it came to a point where Jack had lost all hope and was conviced that Ennis didn't love him anymore or at least not as much as he thought he did. "You used to come easy, now is like seeing the Pope", Jack said.
I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes when you are in a relationship where you are constantly rejected and where the object of your affection is seldom emotionally available for you, it comes to a point where you stop trusting that person. You begin to have doubts and wonder if he or she still loves you. You are so hurt already that even if that other person has a change of heart and tells you that he/she indeed loves you, you find it hard to believe it.
If Jack hadn't died and Ennis had a change of heart after that confrontation at the Lakeside, Ennis would have need to work hard to convice Jack that he's changed. In fact, both of them would have to work very hard to make the relationship work because they had years and years of pain, things unsaid and unresolved, piled up in their hearts. You can't simply erase 20 years of pain and resentment, and start all over again pretending nothing happened. Things always come up, and sometimes with serious consequences for the relationship and the ones in it.
ednbarby:
--- Quote from: opinionista on May 31, 2006, 12:25:28 pm ---I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. What I'm trying to say is that sometimes when you are in a relationship where you are constantly rejected and where the object of your affection is seldom emotionally available for you, it comes to a point where you stop trusting that person. You begin to have doubts and wonder if he or she still loves you. You are so hurt already that even if that other person has a change of heart and tells you that he/she indeed loves you, you find it hard to believe it.
--- End quote ---
I know from this. This is the reason that after two years of punishment, I finally moved on from the love of my life to the point where, when I'd been seeing my now husband for a couple of months and he came practically crawling back to me, practically begging me to give him another chance, as hard as nails as it was, I was able to say, "No."
I had much less to go on than Jack did, though. Well, wait a minute - yes and no. I was about to say that this guy never once told me he loved me, then I remembered... I was about to say that this guy never once made any future, long-term plans of any kind that included me, then I remembered... And this guy only allowed himself to be truly intimate and affectionate with me on very rare occasions - so rare, I can count them on one hand. But then, I was a woman and he was a man and I had much more opportunity to find another man I could love *openly* and with whom I could be accepted by society as a couple. There's the difference.
I agree. Jack had given up. That's what that last look with those empty eyes and hardened jaw is all about. Doesn't mean he'd ever have stopped loving Ennis. And I'm sure if he hadn't died and had taken up with Randall at his parents' ranch and Ennis got wind of it and tried to talk him/beat him out of it, he'd have one hell of a fight on his hands. Jack was a broken man at the end - that's almost as heartbreaking as his literal death. Like Jake said, he died the moment he knew he couldn't be with Ennis like he wanted. I know from that, too. To a much lesser extent. It occurs to me just now that maybe that's why Jack appeals to me more than Ennis. I feel his pain more because I've felt it before.
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