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Randall really is...
Ellemeno:
Re Jimbo going over and talking to the pool table guys - I invite you all to (if you haven't already) watch that piece of the scene twice:
Once with a sense of foreboding, "OMG! He's telling his friends about Jack coming on to him. Oh shit, be safe, Jack!"
Then again watch it with a view that Jimbo isn't mentioning Jack at all, none of the guys he's talking to is even aware of Jack. Jack is completely safe in the situation.
The second time you watch, you see that the guys don't even look Jack's way. I think a big point of the scene is the ambiguity of that piece of it - what Jack and Ennis have to recurringly deal with - "Are the people out on the pavement looking like they know, or aren't they?" "Will this lead to the tire iron, or won't it?"
A few seconds that enbeds itself in us, and helps us feel what they live with. Like that homophobic joke that is playing on the radio as Ennis is packing for the trip with Jack (the time when Alma says, "You forgettin' something?") He's just living life, and has to listen to "humor" about men like himself, and not be able to react to it. He doesn't even look like he hears it.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Elle-Effen'-Meno on June 24, 2006, 12:38:30 am ---. I think a big point of the scene is the ambiguity of that piece of it - what Jack and Ennis have to recurringly deal with - "Are the people out on the pavement looking like they know, or aren't they?"
--- End quote ---
Wow, you guys, fascinating thread. It's hard to keep up with all the potentially juicy topics here.
Re the ambiguity Clarissa mentions above, YES, absolutely. At first, I saw that scene as Jimbo telling the others what just happened, and everyone glancing over at Jack in a scary, threatening way. But wait -- they look scary and threatening, yet nobody is actually looking back at Jack. They could just be exchanging pleasantries.
Yet another example of the movie's cryptic portrayal of society's homophobia. No question it exists, Earl alone proves that. But the focus stays on Ennis' inner homophobia, how society's intolerance has warped his soul. So except for Ennis' dad -- and Jack's possible killers -- none of the supposed villains ever reacts as harmfully as you'd expect. Aguirre doesn't fire them, Alma doesn't out them for years, John Twist might have grudgingly accepted them as ranching partners, and Jimbo may or may not be gossiping about Jack.
--- Quote from: Elle-Effen'-Meno on June 24, 2006, 12:38:30 am ---Like that homophobic joke that is playing on the radio as Ennis is packing for the trip with Jack (the time when Alma says, "You forgettin' something?") He's just living life, and has to listen to "humor" about men like himself, and not be able to react to it. He doesn't even look like he hears it.
--- End quote ---
I've never been able to make out everything the radio guy says, Clarrissa, and in fact the only way I was alerted to the joke was from a previous post of yours. My impression is that Ennis is so used to it he thinks nothing of it. He's been hearing that stuff all his life. It's wallpaper. If he were to stop and consider that they're making fun of men like him, he would think the problem is with men like him, not with idiot radio announcers.
--- Quote from: atz75 on June 24, 2006, 12:06:44 am ---How would Ennis have reacted in a bar situation like that? Would he have behaved in a similar fashion to Jimbo if a guy (let's leave Jack out of this scenario for now) came up and started flirting with him in a fairly open way? If Jimbo is a closeted guy to the same extent or more as Ennis, can we imagine that their reactions would be more or less similar? Would Ennis have been more obviously intrigued than Jimbo? If Cassie had been a guy and had come onto Ennis (even with a fraction of the boldness that Cassie exhibits), what would Ennis have done?
--- End quote ---
IMO, Ennis would be less brusque than Jimbo, though perhaps also less savvy. Jimbo comes a fraction of an inch from openly acknowledging what's going on -- Ennis wouldn't. He might just close up, becoming as shy and taciturn as when he first met Jack.
Jack never comes on to Ennis as strongly as he does to Jimbo. Meanwhile, Ennis' gaydar isn't well tuned. Consequently, before the tent scene it never consciously occurred to Ennis that Jack might feel anything more than friendship toward him. Which is why that five-second moment when Ennis makes his decision is so amazing.
--- Quote from: atz75 on June 24, 2006, 12:06:44 am --- I think Jack's gaydar must be really good... I mean if for no other reason than he figured Ennis Del Mar out!
--- End quote ---
Now here is a really interesting question that I don't remember ever discussing before. We've debated when Ennis realizes that he himself is gay, but when does Jack know it? Does Ennis set off Jack's gaydar?
Ellemeno:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 24, 2006, 01:41:46 am ---I've never been able to make out everything the radio guy says, Clarrissa, and in fact the only way I was alerted to the joke was from a previous post of yours.
--- End quote ---
Ach, Katherine, bei mir bist du schon!! Every now and then I try to rouse some interest in that radio joke, and no one replies. Thank you. Not one bit of radio in BBM is just filler. I'm gonna finally start me a whole thread on that topic, I just decided.
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 24, 2006, 01:41:46 am ---Jimbo comes a fraction of an inch from openly acknowledging what's going on
--- End quote ---
Very cool way of putting that. I agree.
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 24, 2006, 01:41:46 am ---Jack never comes on to Ennis as strongly as he does to Jimbo.
--- End quote ---
Hm, that's true. Maybe it's bar mode - I've certainly flirted in bars in ways I couldn't imagine myself doing in other situations (in the old days, BTW, not recently).
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 24, 2006, 01:41:46 am ---Meanwhile, Ennis' gaydar isn't well tuned. Consequently, before the tent scene it never consciously occurred to Ennis that Jack might feel anything more than friendship toward him. Which is why that five-second moment when Ennis makes his decision is so amazing.
--- End quote ---
I don't know. Is this true? I used to agree with this, but now, I don't know. That very suggestive sound that Jack makes as he's offering him the whiskey bottle after Ennis says "I ain't yet had the opportunity" is pretty darn overt. And Ennis looks pretty pleased at it.
--- Quote from: latjoreme on June 24, 2006, 01:41:46 am ---Now here is a really interesting question that I don't remember ever discussing before. We've debated when Ennis realizes that he himself is gay, but when does Jack know it? Does Ennis set off Jack's gaydar?
--- End quote ---
Good one. Hm, I don't think Jack would have initiated in the tent without some belief that it might work out. Right? i mean that would have been a heck of a risk. I look forward to what others answer here.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: atz75 on June 24, 2006, 12:06:44 am ---I've wondered about Jack's decision to approach Jimbo too. On the contrary, I think Jack's gaydar must be really good... I mean if for no other reason than he figured Ennis Del Mar out!
--- End quote ---
Sounds like you're assuming Jack had Ennis pegged from the moment he laid eyes on him in the parking lot outside Aguirre's office. Personally, I'm not so sure of that--I'll only go so far as that Jack immediately found Ennis attractive.
If you don't buy that Jack immediately figured Ennis out, then Jack had a month of living with Ennis in isolation on the mountain, growing closer to him emotionally, before he made his move, and I don't think that requires particularly well-developed gaydar to have a sense that Ennis would be, er, receptive to Jack's overture.
serious crayons:
Hey you guys, this issue -- when did Ennis and Jack notice each other's gayness? -- seems big enough to deserve its own thread. I can't believe I've never seen one before, in fact. But I'm afraid people who might have insightful opinions about that might never see this discussion because they're not particularly interested in talking about Randall and his resemblance (or lack thereof) to Herman Munster. And others may not have made it past Leslie's scary-codpiece photos! (No offense to either -- god knows I will gladly discuss both Randall AND scary codpieces.)
Does anybody mind if I start it up separately? Or if I take the action over to the Open Forum, because it seems the kind of thing that would fit in beautifully there? And will you please please post in it?
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