Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum
"I figured you were sore from that punch"
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on July 07, 2006, 12:48:45 am ---Could you explain what you mean a bit more here?
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Amanda, I'm not sure what part you'd like me to clarify, but I'll give it a shot. As a very wise poster on another thread once wrote,
--- Quote ---I think we're meant to see Ennis as a huge contrast to his father. "We're supposed to guard the sheep not eat them." Ennis is definitely not one of the predators responsible for the menace of predator loss. He's horrified by his father, it traumatizes him and messes up his sense of his own identity, but he certainly doesn't agree with him.
--- End quote ---
:laugh: (That post appeared tonight, and the person who wrote it was Amanda.)
Anyway, I thought you put it very well, and that gets at what I mean. Ennis is a protector, therefore wouldn't deliberately hurt Jack. I guess the punch was technically deliberate, but it was also impulsive and later regretted -- IMO, it does not constitute a sincere desire to injure Jack.
(Not that those are excuses -- I'm sure the same could be said of many domestic abusers. In other ways, though, I don't think I'd compare this to domestic violence. What if two friends got in a fight, both young and strong and healthy and equally matched, and one punched the other? Regrettable, sure, but to me a lot less scary and serious than the term "domestic violence" implies. So does the fact that they're lovers take it into that realm?)
Back to the other question. With the Mexico threat, Ennis was lashing out. Unlike some people who say Ennis meant that threat because he was taught that gay people should be murdered, I believe what you suggested above: Ennis was messed up by his father's actions, but that doesn't mean he has become an exact duplicate of his father or that he feels obliged to dutifully follow his every action. So no, he wouldn't actually hurt Jack then, either.
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 06, 2006, 11:21:10 pm ---You know, it just occurred to me -- I don't know why it didn't before; maybe you all got this long ago -- that although Jack is usually the comforter, Ennis is usually the protector. He looks up with concern at Jack riding the mountain under a storm cloud, he orders soup, he shoots an elk, he worries about Earl's fate befalling them (and possibly more so Jack, judging from the ominous symbols in the dead sheep/naked laundry scene), he regrets that in the end he wasn't there to save Jack.
All that suggests to me that neither the punch nor his Mexico threat are deliberate and/or sincere.
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I have felt for awhile that Ennis' threats or reactions were not deliberate. IMO, that is how Ennis handles his emotions ... by deflecting the situation off onto someone else or lashing out physically. Your first paragraph triggered a thought, however … I have seen Jack as the comforter, more in touch with his feelings, a dreamer, ready to take the plunge and make a life with Ennis. Honestly, I never saw Ennis in terms of “a protector” … but from what you have said, I think that is true. Conversely, there are times when Ennis is also the comforter, the one who takes the initiative. Think about the reunion kiss; the arm around Jack after Jack’s confessing that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it; the dozy embrace. Furthermore, it is Ennis who breaks down in tears … partially because he can no longer contain his feelings and partially, IMO, because he can’t imagine his life without Jack (as when he breaks down post mountain and at the lake scene). Jack only cries once … and then quickly squelches his tears and drives to Mexico. So, it is not just Ennis who holds back his feelings. Jack does it, too … but in a different way. Jack gets frustrated and meets his needs sexually, physically. Ennis, however, is the only one who can meet Jack’s emotional needs.
Interestingly, neither one can be placed in a single category because they are like real humans … complex. For me, I have often looked at Ennis as the one who did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. I may have to reconsider that POV… both Ennis and Jack never used the word “love” to each other. Although Jack was gregarious with Ennis, he really wasn’t that way without him. Examples … Lureen approaching Jack at the bar and Jack looking rather embarrassed, shy; rarely (if ever) standing up to Lureen or her dad (until the Thanksgiving scene, that is); Randall taking the initiative after the benefit; et.al).
Hmmm … do I need to re-think my entire POV? Maybe … to some degree.
jpwagoneer1964:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 07, 2006, 01:59:26 pm ---I have felt for awhile that Ennis' threats or reactions were not deliberate. IMO, that is how Ennis handles his emotions ... by deflecting the situation off onto someone else or lashing out physically. Your first paragraph triggered a thought, however … I have seen Jack as the comforter, more in touch with his feelings, a dreamer, ready to take the plunge and make a life with Ennis. Honestly, I never saw Ennis in terms of “a protector” … but from what you have said, I think that is true. Conversely, there are times when Ennis is also the comforter, the one who takes the initiative. Think about the reunion kiss; the arm around Jack after Jack’s confessing that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it; the dozy embrace. Furthermore, it is Ennis who breaks down in tears … partially because he can no longer contain his feelings and partially, IMO, because he can’t imagine his life without Jack (as when he breaks down post mountain and at the lake scene). Jack only cries once … and then quickly squelches his tears and drives to Mexico. So, it is not just Ennis who holds back his feelings. Jack does it, too … but in a different way. Jack gets frustrated and meets his needs sexually, physically. Ennis, however, is the only one who can meet Jack’s emotional needs.
Interestingly, neither one can be placed in a single category because they are like real humans … complex. For me, I have often looked at Ennis as the one who did not understand that he loved Jack until it was too late. I may have to reconsider that POV… both Ennis and Jack never used the word “love” to each other. Although Jack was gregarious with Ennis, he really wasn’t that way without him. Examples … Lureen approaching Jack at the bar and Jack looking rather embarrassed, shy; rarely (if ever) standing up to Lureen or her dad (until the Thanksgiving scene, that is); Randall taking the initiative after the benefit; et.al).
Hmmm … do I need to re-think my entire POV? Maybe … to some degree.
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I think Jack cried after the punch, was certianly close to tears when "Sometimes I miss you so much I can...." and at the lake scene when he goees to hug Ennis.
dly64:
--- Quote from: jpwagoneer1964 on July 07, 2006, 02:40:05 pm ---I think Jack cried after the punch, was certainly close to tears when "Sometimes I miss you so much I can...." and at the lake scene when he goes to hug Ennis.
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I see where you are coming from ... don't know that I agree100%. There are times, as you have said, that Jack is certainly close to tears. I just find it interesting that each one handles his emotions so completely different from the other. Ennis literally breaks down. Jack channels his feelings of frustration and need into having sex with other men (IMO). They both have troubles expressing the truth to each other. Ironically, they are both more themselves when they are together versus when they are apart.
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 07, 2006, 01:37:57 am ---Amanda, I'm not sure what part you'd like me to clarify, but I'll give it a shot.
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LOL. I just thought you might have meant you thought of a whole new way to look at Ennis's motivations here... or had more to say about what really did spur the punch/threats. I think it was the kind of misunderstanding that comes from typing/reading vs. actually talking.
::)
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