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Green with Envy

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ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 07, 2006, 08:19:37 pm ---This is from a June 28 post of yours, discussing the importance of Ennis' fear … Can you see why I understood you to be using a metaphor involving fear to interpret the subtext of this scene?
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Um, yes… but, I’m sorry if this sounds rather direct… I can understand it if you’re mixing metaphor and subtext.  I went back and read the entire post to get the context straight in my mind.  You didn’t take or twist it out of context or anything, so I’m not saying that, it’s just that I needed the full context.  In that post, I was responding to a question from someone else about how I see Ennis’ paranoia increasing over time in the film – that while in the beginning he may have just had a fear in him, by the “move to Texas” scene, Ennis’ fear has magnified into paranoia.  In that post, I was looking at the tar raking scene on a subtext level, not on a metaphor level.



--- Quote ---But I can't agree with this metaphor-based analysis. I think Ennis IS wistfully remembering Jack. I don't think he's having a paranoia attack. I'm perfectly willing to agree that the pavement metaphor suggests an overarching theme, and that certainly Ennis does in general feel paranoia, but not that it's a key to interpreting this scene.
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The analysis in the other post was not a metaphorical one, it dealt with subtext.  So when you say that Ennis is wistfully remembering Jack, I have no problem with that.  I think that is a very valid subtext to what we are seeing and I agree, I see that too.  But another subtext that I see is a very slight paranoia evoked in Ennis (probably on a subconscious level) by the man’s evoking an image of Brokeback.  We both seem to agree that Timmy’s comments evoked an image of Brokeback for Ennis.  And you think that this causes wistful remembrance – and I agree – but I also see the very start of paranoia.  So when I responded to the other questioner’s question about magnifying fear and paranoia, I brought up the tar raking scene as an example of a seed of paranoia being started in Ennis that grows with his various interactions with “society” – as opposed to with his immediate family or Jack.


When you say:


--- Quote ---I'm perfectly willing to agree that the pavement metaphor suggests an overarching theme, and that certainly Ennis does in general feel paranoia, but not that it's a key to interpreting this scene.
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I am glad to see your initial comment about the pavement metaphor and the general feeling of paranoia, then, I am glad to also see your final phrase about key to interpretation – because you are right.  What’s happening in the tar scene fits into the pavement metaphor AND into the subtext analysis, but even though the metaphor and the subtext stem from the same thing (what happens in the tar scene), the metaphor and the subtext have nothing to do with each other.  Neither is trying to nor is either supposed to explain the other.  They’re separate beasts.

So, the metaphor concerning pavement is not intended to interpret a scene, or to be key to a scene, but the subtexts are.  The two subtexts that we came up with in the tar scene (wistful and paranoia) are supposed to help us interpret the scene.  That’s what’s great about subtext.  You can see one, I can see another, or we can both see one and not the other, or we can both see both, and someone else may come along with another one that I like and you don’t or… the cycle keeps going on.  The subtexts that we come up with help to interpret a scene and for each scene each of us probably considers a particular subtext to be key.  This is highly subjective stuff. 

But as far as a metaphor goes, its overarching quality is not supposed to interpret a scene.  Metaphors help us to focus our thinking by associations of similar objects or lines or visuals (etc.) and help us to explain a larger, overarching concept in the film, rather than just a particular scene (or object, or line, or visual).  For example, the wind=Jack metaphor (I picked that one because it seems highly agreeable to many people) helps us to understand the more lofty, wind-swept, if you will, free-spirited, more outgoing nature of Jack.  It helps us to see the dissimilarity in Ennis.  But it doesn’t explain a scene.  For example, when Jack walked into Aguirre’s trailer the second time, the fan blew (wind) and Aguirre said “Look what the wind blew in” instead of the customary “Look what the cat dragged in.”  Here, Jack=wind is not key to interpreting the scene itself.  The scene is about Aguirre not hiring Jack back again and to let Jack know that their activities were not so private and to show that Jack is looking for Ennis.  This is the textual level.  But we all know there’s more to it than that.  On the subtext level, Aguirre won’t hire Jack again because… one subtext says poor job performance … another subtext says because Aguirre’s homophobia is showing.  Each is just fine, and both can be just fine too.  And if we'd put this into one of those “fun questionnaires,” we’d probably get a lot more subtexts that people come up with.

On a metaphor level, one can see symbolism in Aguirre’s binoculars, out of the case, coupled with his remarks, and take it as symbolism for society seeing what they did and judging them for it.  This can then be reinforced by the Aguirre ride up scene.  Suddenly an overarching metaphor takes shape.  And a moral may (but doesn’t have to) appear.  One could find the following moral: Don’t put faith in your actions being secret.  Now, the wind=Jack metaphor is not key to understanding the scene, but the scene helps give weight to the wind=Jack metaphor in that the fan blew, Aguirre said “wind” and Jack (who, according to the metaphor is lofty and free-spirited) gives a look that may register umbrage at Aguirre’s judgment of Jack and Ennis (I also see some embarrassment and some shame in being found out by Aguirre).  But how does this affect the lofty, free-spirited Jack?  I dunno.  He doesn’t get violent (as Ennis would).  He doesn’t argue (as Ennis would).  He doesn’t run away (as Ennis would).  He just leaves and after an amount of time probably shrugs it off… Fuck Aguirre!  This reinforces the wind=Jack metaphor because someone free-spirited could shrug it off; and, it reinforces the Ennis=ground metaphor by showing the dissimilarities that exist between Jack and Ennis when we consider how Ennis might have reacted in that trailer.



--- Quote ---In some cases, I have a different idea of what I think something -- red, for example -- symbolizes. In some cases, it seems to me you're stretching too far to get something to fit, and though I can't say for sure that I might not feel the same way you do after I've seen the movie 135 more times, it doesn't ring true to me now. In some cases -- much as I hate to admit it -- it's remotely, distantly, faintly possible you're right and I'm wrong.  ::) About some particular individual things, I mean.
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And all of this is OK.  As long as when we find the subtext that works for each of us we pull it out of our own subjective selves.  And, as long as when we each find the metaphors and symbolism that work for us, we follow the rules and tools of metaphor construction and analysis to assure validity.



--- Quote ---I never like to stop arguing until I've run the subject totally into the ground and everybody is completely sick of it.
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Me too.  Honestly, wouldn’t it be a lot more fun to do this sitting around a campfire eating beans and drinking whiskey?  Ah, takes me back to my childhood…



--- Quote ---So when you say, "X means Y," and I say, "Really? Oh, I think X means Z" and you say, "No, Z is subtext, Y is metaphor," well, I don't really have the tools to dispute that. Do I not get it because I can't tell the difference between metaphor and subtext? Or might I actually be right but just not be able to support my argument authoritatively? When the discussion becomes that abstract, I can't tell. Let's just say I can only debate stuff like this at an undergraduate level.
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Yes.  I’m right and you’re wrong.  NO!  I’m just kidding!   :laugh:

If I say X means Y and you say X means Z, they very probably each and both could be true.  Or, one could be false if the levels of analysis are getting mixed up – which I do think has happened occasionally.  I know that I get confused when I think it appears someone is talking on one level and then later it seems like the other level.

You debate these things as well as Lureen rounds those posts on her faithful steed.  And she won top prize that day!  (I love that picture of Jack and Lureen with their certificates.  Lureen looks like “Oh, well, I won again,” and Jack looks like “What the hell am I doin’ here?”)



--- Quote ---*Sigh.* OK, I'll bite.  :)
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(Uncle Harold)  Tell you what… I’ll write a bit about this later.  It’s just a little something I thought of once and it seems to work.  I don’t know about you, but it sure jumped out at me that old, sick Uncle Harold made such an interesting appearance.  Why couldn’t Aguirre just have rode up there to do a routine check?  Why did the filmmakers choose to include Uncle Harold?



--- Quote ---But since this is the only potato, what if I don't agree with this interpretation? What if I have a whole different one, or none at all?
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Well, remember that it’s not the potato that’s important to the metaphor.  It’s the knives.  And what’s done with them, and by whom, and when, and what is going on in that scene, and before, and after, etc.  Again, in that particular scene we see text: Ennis is bathing, Jack is peeling a potato and not looking at Ennis.  And there’s subtext: Ennis is giving a show, Jack couldn’t care less about the damn potato… he wants to look!  (And all kinds of other subtexts that people can come up with.)  And on the symbolic level, it matters what Jack is peeling because of Ennis’ question to the Basque and the Basque’s response.  To fill out the metaphor, does it fit with the other instances of knives?  If so, objective validity.  If you have a different symbolic representation, no problem.  But if you try to string it into an entire metaphor of other – similar – objects or lines (etc.), then it has to fit due to its presence, its use, its common meaning, the scene, the previous scene, etc.


Finally, although I may have appeared to diminish the significance of the potato, I’ll stand out on the pavement and shout until my dying day… Jack is still a potato!

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 08, 2006, 03:35:14 am --- In that post, I was looking at the tar raking scene on a subtext level, not on a metaphor level. ... So, the metaphor concerning pavement is not intended to interpret a scene
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OK. I must have misunderstood again. Maybe because I can't think of anything but the pavement metaphor that would signal paranoia in that scene. But it's true, everyone has a right to his or her own opinion, even if it's wrong different from mine.  ;)


--- Quote ---You debate these things as well as Lureen rounds those posts on her faithful steed.  And she won top prize that day!

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Yee f'n haw. I'll get me one of them red-and-white shirts to wear at my computer. No, wait -- would that seal my doom?


--- Quote ---(Uncle Harold) I don’t know about you, but it sure jumped out at me that old, sick Uncle Harold made such an interesting appearance.  Why couldn’t Aguirre just have rode up there to do a routine check?  Why did the filmmakers choose to include Uncle Harold?
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Right. I have an idea or two of my own about Uncle Harold. I don't know that I would describe mine as having huge societal implications, though, so I eagerly look forward to seeing what you write.

  :)

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 08, 2006, 07:47:46 pm ---Yee f'n haw. I'll get me one of them red-and-white shirts to wear at my computer. No, wait -- would that seal my doom?
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Yes!  Don't wear red and white together for gosh sakes.  Wear a blue shirt instead.  Red and white together would surely spell trouble, but you can ward it off by peeling potatoes whilst wearing it.  Trouble with this is you can't look left or right, you just gotta keep peeling them potatoes. 



--- Quote ---Right. I have an idea or two of my own about Uncle Harold. I don't know that I would describe mine as having huge societal implications, though, ...
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Oops.  Maybe I should have said something more like, my view of him is a societal view... or sumpin' like that.  I dunno, maybe not.  Anyway, try if I can to get around to it soon.

Ellemeno:

--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 08, 2006, 03:35:14 am ---? Jack is still a potato!

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Is that why Ennis sometimes calls him Spud, as in "Somethin' I've been meaning to tell ya, Spud?"

I like the green theory, not convinced by the red & white theory, or the orange and yellow.  I will watch with an eye for those colors.  LOVE the pavement theory.   Love new ideas.  Thanks!

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: Ellemeno on July 13, 2006, 05:43:54 pm ---Is that why Ennis sometimes calls him Spud, as in "Somethin' I've been meaning to tell ya, Spud?"
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Best one I've heard yet!  I'm LingMAO!  Thanks!   :laugh:       :laugh:       :laugh:



--- Quote ---I like the green theory, not convinced by the red & white theory, or the orange and yellow.  I will watch with an eye for those colors.  LOVE the pavement theory.   Love new ideas.  Thanks!
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I'm here to please...

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