Brokeback Mountain: Our Community's Common Bond > Brokeback Mountain Open Forum

Green with Envy

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ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 05, 2006, 03:10:39 pm ---I don't agree with every last tiny detail.
--- End quote ---

S’alright.



--- Quote ---Regarding some of the home furnishings, I hate to be one of those people who says this but, well, some of them seem sort of incidental to me. I know, I know, nothing is incidental.
--- End quote ---

When I bring up an object, I do it because it’s extremely prominently used or displayed one time (e.g., the little cowboy figurine in Jack’s room), OR because it’s prominently used or displayed several times (e.g., knives) OR because its color jumps out of the screen as opposed to other objects in the same scene (e.g., the green bowl in the Twist home).  I try really hard to not bring up objects that don’t somehow ask to be noticed.



--- Quote ---The least green scene of all must be the Earl flashback, hunh? The setting is completely arid and lifeless -- the force of nature is dead in that place.

Also, when Ennis rides away after TS1, he rides along a rockier, less green landscape than we see the rest of the time on Brokeback. Maybe because the relationship's viability is momentarily in question?
--- End quote ---

Because I believe the green=relationship theory, I agree.  The Earl flashback scene is a great scene juxtaposing Earl’s and Rich’s relationship with that of Jack and Ennis.



--- Quote ---One exception to the scarcity of green when they're apart: when Ennis is on the road crew, and he turns away from Timmy (after Timmy talks about breakin his back) and gazes off at all the green in the distance, thinking of his relationship with Jack. The tar-crew job -- the prospects for Ennis' bleak future sans Jack -- means, by definition, paving over green.
--- End quote ---

Actually, I think you make a good point for this scene supporting the green=relationship theory.

I also view this scene as linked to the two other significant appearances of pavement.  Yes, there are paved roads everywhere in the film, but only 3 significant appearances of pavement:

First, the tar scene – Ennis is on the pavement, and the man’s comments evoke Brokeback, raising a suspicion in Ennis about people knowing.  Second, the post-Thanksgiving fight scene – Ennis is pummeled down to and on the pavement immediately after Alma did her best to make sure that that was a Thanksgiving Ennis would remember – again, suspicion.  Third, the suspicious mind scene – Ennis’ suspicions about people knowing have magnified across these scenes so much so that he displays actual paranoia in his question for Jack about going to town and then out on the pavement.  He should stick to dirt roads…



--- Quote ---The green bowl at the Twists is a home-furnishings interpretation I think I do agree with.
--- End quote ---

It just screams out to be noticed.  Nothing else in the house pops in color like that bowl.  In fact, it, like the orange horsey and the orange blanket (?) in Ennis’ Riverton apartment seem to have been colorized in final production. 



I re-read your comments about red and white and then I read my original comments and I tried to put your view into what I wrote.  Some of it certainly fits.  But here are some sticky wickets for me:

If an object or color is significant, I try to relate its significance to how it’s used, how it’s seen, what’s happening, what has just happened, or what is about to happen.

With the two vests, I can see Ennis’ vest fitting with passion, because of its following the ear rub of the reunion river scene.  But, then it also fits with death or dying, for the same reason.  As to Jack’s vest, why, in particular, would it be displaying passion in this scene?  Just to display passion or because it’s linked to something else?  I can’t find the link when it comes to passion.  Also, the cooler has changed from green to red.  In the death or dying theory, the green relationship cooler has changed to a symbol of the dying relationship.  In the passion theory, it doesn’t seem to connect with the green cooler used before.  See, I think the cooler is an important prop because it changed color from its first appearance to its second.  Had the cooler first appeared as green in the river reunion scene and then changed to red for the “you’re late” scene, then I could see it as the green relationship being infused with passion since this scene exemplifies both of them being comfortable with the new rules of their relationship as set up in the river reunion scene.

Also, concerning red alone, there are several notable blood scenes.  Ennis’ head wound – I don’t see passion here, I see Jack being disappointed.  He gave a loving, healing gesture to Jack and the blood red killed that off with Ennis’ refusal to allow it.  Earl’s crotch in the flashback – I don’t want to speculate on a passion connection here (sorry!); but, the red=death or dying seems to fit.  The blood on the shirts – the blood came out of Ennis.  The death/dying theory seems to fit.  It was immediately before this that Ennis was most open, most vulnerable, most content, most … everything good.  His blood symbolizes his death or dying – emotionally.  Just as Jack began his death at the post-divorce scene, Ennis began his on that last day on the mountain.  Again, not either of their physical deaths, but a death of, well, their passion.  The shirts strongly represent the union of Jack and Ennis (spiritually, metaphysically, friends, lovers, the whole shebang) so when Ennis wiped his blood on the shirts (Jack helped him, of course), he permanently etched his emotional death onto their relationship.  And it stayed there until it was too late.  (Jack really should have washed those shirts, I guess.)

Besides, there are a number of other examples of various levels of passion occurring for or between certain characters that do not seem to have any red around symbolically.  Also, note Mrs. Twist’s hair.  It almost makes her look like a dyed-hair woman.  Her hair color doesn’t seem to have anything to do with passion, but it does seem to have to do with her death -- on an emotional level, again, living her life in that white house with Old Man Twist.  (Boy, I sure hope Ennis visited that sweet, needful old lady again… if I ever find out he didn’t, I’m gonna kick his ignorant ass into next week!)

You mentioned red with Lureen and her passion, dull red with Alma and her not being as passionate.  The problem I have with this is that Lureen’s red is not just red.  It’s red and white.  I mean A LOT of red and white.  Same with Alma at the reunion kiss scene.  Same with the dead sheep.  Taking red for passion and white as an end to the relationship, I can see it with Lureen (as foreshadowing) and Alma, but not with the sheep.  The sheep is directly connected to the FNIT.  The FNIT wasn’t really so much about passion as it was lust.  And, the relationship didn’t experience any death through the FNIT or the sheep; rather, it got significantly better immediately after the dead sheep scene, turning to gentle love.

Also, Jack’s red and white truck makes its first appearance when Jack wasn’t tending to his (or Ennis’) marriage, not at a time when passion and the end of their relationship were mingled.  Here, their relationship burst into a new expression of itself which they were content with for a good number of years.

As far as white on its own, re-reading everything you and I each wrote, I can see how either works.  But, it’s that obvious and repeated pairing of red and white that doesn’t seem to add up if red=passion and white=the end of a relationship.



--- Quote ---Incidentally, there's a red-and-white plaid shirt hanging in Ennis' closet at the end.
--- End quote ---

Yes.  I’ve noticed this and I forgot to include it in my original post.  I do think it’s significant that it’s a shirt that is red and white, right next to THE shirts.  Applying my theory, Jack not tending to the relationship (symbolized by THE shirts) brought about a death or dying in the relationship.  I believe this applies well, especially when you take THE shirts back to BBM, back to the fight scene.  The relationship began its death because Jack didn’t take the lead as he was always supposed to do.  This, as you know, I’ve covered in another one of my threads.



--- Quote ---That last remark seems a little unfair -- Lureen cares about as much as any wife should be expected to care about her husband's goddamn parka if he can't keep track of it himself. But you're right, it does suggest she has no power to ward off his death.
--- End quote ---

Yes, you’re right.  Re-reading it, it was unfair and untrue.  I do believe that Lureen loved Jack and that her love would not have diminished had Jack actually been there emotionally.  He “loved” Lureen, but I don’t think he was ever really “in love” with Lureen.

Twenty lashes for me with a raw, limp slab of elk flesh.



--- Quote ---We haven't even gotten into gray -- Ennis' dad's jacket, Ennis jacket in the final scenes, the blackish/grayish blues that Jack wears post-divorce scene (and, interestingly, in the wood-chopping scene with Aguirre) -- but there's always enough time for that, always enough time.
--- End quote ---

I didn’t bring this up because I thought it would be more appropriate in a thread about clothing.  And there are some good, juicy morsels lurking out there for a thread on clothing.

As ALWAYS, it’s been a pleasure!




Oops!  One last thing I forgot and then remembered...

The appearance of the Jolly Green Giant in the supermarket scene.  He stands out like a sore thumb.  An indication that while Ennis has transferred some of his relationship to Alma (her smock), his relationship with Jack is looming large above and near him.  It's right after this that Jack and Lureen have their big homecoming for beautiful baby boy Bobby, where "rodeo" drops the keys thrown to him to get him out of the "real" Newsome family causing Jack to send the postcard, seen in the next scene where Ennis of the sea sees what we seen seemingly in the previous scene.  Sorry, I got a bad case of the always asinine alliteration affliction...

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 06, 2006, 02:48:46 am ---When I bring up an object, I do it because it’s extremely prominently used or displayed one time (e.g., the little cowboy figurine in Jack’s room), OR because it’s prominently used or displayed several times (e.g., knives) OR because its color jumps out of the screen as opposed to other objects in the same scene (e.g., the green bowl in the Twist home).  I try really hard to not bring up objects that don’t somehow ask to be noticed.
--- End quote ---

I know. And I just absolutely hate it when people respond to my theories -- as many do! -- with "sometimes a (something) is just a (something)." I hate it because, IMO, with all due respect, those people are wrong, wrong, wrong. ( ;)) And also because I think they're depriving themselves of a whole level of appreciation of the movie.

That said, I have trouble overhauling my whole theoretical structure on the basis of a detail I hardly noticed, like the changing cooler, or the fact that the blood is red instead of some other color. But I'm willing to consider the possibility that this just reflects the stage of my Brokeback development, and that at some later point I'll come to think of these points as being as obvious as Jack=blue and Ennis=tan. I don't mean to sound dismissive of your ideas.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---latjoreme: One exception to the scarcity of green when they're apart: when Ennis is on the road crew, and he turns away from Timmy (after Timmy talks about breakin his back) and gazes off at all the green in the distance, thinking of his relationship with Jack. The tar-crew job -- the prospects for Ennis' bleak future sans Jack -- means, by definition, paving over green.
--- End quote ---

ruthlessly: Actually, I think you make a good point for this scene supporting the green=relationship theory.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, that's what I meant! I was citing it as further evidence for your theory -- in fact, it's sort of an exception that proves the rule.


--- Quote --- the man’s comments evoke Brokeback, raising a suspicion in Ennis about people knowing.
--- End quote ---

I don't see this that way. I think he's thinking longingly of Jack, and of his bleak future sans Jack.


--- Quote --- Third, the suspicious mind scene – Ennis’ suspicions about people knowing have magnified across these scenes so much so that he displays actual paranoia in his question for Jack about going to town and then out on the pavement.
--- End quote ---

Excellent catch. I'd always thought that his use of the word "pavement" rather than "street" calls attention to itself.


--- Quote ---As to Jack’s vest, why, in particular, would it be displaying passion in this scene?  Just to display passion or because it’s linked to something else?  I can’t find the link when it comes to passion.
--- End quote ---

Well, first, I guess looking back I see that you clearly referred to Jack's vest in the "suspicious minds" scene. But somehow I was thinking of Jack's vest in the reunion scene -- which I guess is not actually red-lined, but is worn over an uncharacteristically red shirt.

Second, I guess I'm not very concrete about what I mean by passion, maybe because, IMO, the filmmakers weren't being particularly concrete, either. I'm referring not necessarily to passion displayed in that exact scene or passion in its most literal sense, but passion in the vaguer sense of longing, or love. Like a "carrying a torch" sort of passion. I'll just call it passion for short, though (you got a better idea?). So to me the fact that Ennis comes to the reunion wearing a Jack-striped shirt and Jack arrives in a passion-colored shirt under an Ennis-colored vest feels significant. Back to suspicious minds, it seems possible that Jack is wearing a passion- (or love-) colored vest when he's giving one more shot to the sweet-life idea.


--- Quote ---Also, the cooler has changed from green to red.  In the death or dying theory, the green relationship cooler has changed to a symbol of the dying relationship.  In the passion theory, it doesn’t seem to connect with the green cooler used before.  See, I think the cooler is an important prop because it changed color from its first appearance to its second.
--- End quote ---

See, my problem here is that I hadn't noticed the cooler, period ( ::)). So it's hard for me to put a lot of weight in the possible metaphoric meaning of a prop I'd never even seen (though it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about that).


--- Quote ---Also, concerning red alone, there are several notable blood scenes.  Ennis’ head wound – I don’t see passion here, I see Jack being disappointed.  He gave a loving, healing gesture to Jack and the blood red killed that off with Ennis’ refusal to allow it.  Earl’s crotch in the flashback – I don’t want to speculate on a passion connection here (sorry!); but, the red=death or dying seems to fit.  The blood on the shirts – the blood came out of Ennis.  The death/dying theory seems to fit.  It was immediately before this that Ennis was most open, most vulnerable, most content, most … everything good.  His blood symbolizes his death or dying – emotionally.  Just as Jack began his death at the post-divorce scene, Ennis began his on that last day on the mountain.  Again, not either of their physical deaths, but a death of, well, their passion.  The shirts strongly represent the union of Jack and Ennis (spiritually, metaphysically, friends, lovers, the whole shebang) so when Ennis wiped his blood on the shirts (Jack helped him, of course), he permanently etched his emotional death onto their relationship.  And it stayed there until it was too late.
--- End quote ---

It's hard for me to read much significance into the fact that the filmmakers didn't make the blood some other color. Same, BTW, with the sheep. What else are they going to do?


--- Quote ---Also, note Mrs. Twist’s hair.  It almost makes her look like a dyed-hair woman.  Her hair color doesn’t seem to have anything to do with passion, but it does seem to have to do with her death -- on an emotional level, again, living her life in that white house with Old Man Twist.
--- End quote ---

But isn't her hair dye more brown? (So maybe it suggests her empathy for Ennis! ;D) Also, it seems unnecessary to include metaphors explaining the relationship between the Twists, one because it's off topic and two because it's pretty clear what their relationship is like.


--- Quote ---You mentioned red with Lureen and her passion, dull red with Alma and her not being as passionate.  The problem I have with this is that Lureen’s red is not just red.  It’s red and white.  I mean A LOT of red and white.  Same with Alma at the reunion kiss scene.  Same with the dead sheep.  Taking red for passion and white as an end to the relationship, I can see it with Lureen (as foreshadowing) and Alma, but not with the sheep.  The sheep is directly connected to the FNIT.  The FNIT wasn’t really so much about passion as it was lust.  And, the relationship didn’t experience any death through the FNIT or the sheep; rather, it got significantly better immediately after the dead sheep scene, turning to gentle love.
--- End quote ---

Hmm ... how about, red and white together equals passion mixed with foreshadowing of an ending. White clearly signals endings in reference to Jack and Ennis. So Lureen is passionate, but the end of her relationship is in sight. Alma is a bit less passionate, and in the reunion scene the end of her relationshp is covering up the red. (And in the Thanksgiving scene -- a new, though dull, passion, but no white). (Incidentally, I love how often Alma is shown in light blue -- particularly noticable in the bedroom scene -- she's a pale imitation of Jack.)


--- Quote ---Also, Jack’s red and white truck makes its first appearance when Jack wasn’t tending to his (or Ennis’) marriage, not at a time when passion and the end of their relationship were mingled.  Here, their relationship burst into a new expression of itself which they were content with for a good number of years.
--- End quote ---

Well, the passion is there, but the end is foreshadowed.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Incidentally, there's a red-and-white plaid shirt hanging in Ennis' closet at the end.
--- End quote ---

Yes.  I’ve noticed this and I forgot to include it in my original post.  I do think it’s significant that it’s a shirt that is red and white, right next to THE shirts.  Applying my theory, Jack not tending to the relationship (symbolized by THE shirts) brought about a death or dying in the relationship.  I believe this applies well, especially when you take THE shirts back to BBM, back to the fight scene.  The relationship began its death because Jack didn’t take the lead as he was always supposed to do.  This, as you know, I’ve covered in another one of my threads.
--- End quote ---

I have trouble basing one theoretical idea on another, possibly disputed, theory. In other words, to say that a shirt is red because we know that Jack didn't take the lead as he was supposed to. Besides, I think this fits my interpretation, too:  In Ennis' closet, the passion and the ending are mingled.


--- Quote ---I didn’t bring this up because I thought it would be more appropriate in a thread about clothing.  And there are some good, juicy morsels lurking out there for a thread on clothing.
--- End quote ---

Well then I suggest you start one, pronto! Or resurrect one of these older threads:

"Black hats, white hats"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1266.0

or

"Color coordination"

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1247.msg25606#msg25606

I would love to hear your views on gray and black. To me, those are the colors that equal death -- the equivalent of your red and white, I guess.


--- Quote ---As ALWAYS, it’s been a pleasure!
--- End quote ---

For me, too!


--- Quote ---The appearance of the Jolly Green Giant in the supermarket scene.  He stands out like a sore thumb.  An indication that while Ennis has transferred some of his relationship to Alma (her smock), his relationship with Jack is looming large above and near him.

--- End quote ---

Good one! I won't dispute the Giant.

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 06, 2006, 03:53:47 pm ---And I just absolutely hate it when people respond to my theories -- as many do! -- with "sometimes a (something) is just a (something)." I hate it because, IMO, with all due respect, those people are wrong, wrong, wrong. ( ;)) And also because I think they're depriving themselves of a whole level of appreciation of the movie.
--- End quote ---

Amen to that!


--- Quote ---I don't mean to sound dismissive of your ideas.
--- End quote ---

You never do sound dismissive.  It’s all about argument and counterargument and evidence and theories and maybe even finding common ground.  I love the back and forth stuff.



--- Quote ---I don't see this that way. I think he's thinking longingly of Jack, and of his bleak future sans Jack.
--- End quote ---

Right.  And I don’t mean to discount this.  But I think there are several things all going on at once.  The pavement theory is more on the metaphoric level while I think you’ve got the sub-text level.



--- Quote ---I'd always thought that his use of the word "pavement" rather than "street" calls attention to itself.
--- End quote ---

Exactly.  It’s one of those words that just jumps out at a person.  When have you ever heard someone phrase something like that?  I never have.  “I was out on the pavement one day…”  huh?



--- Quote --- …maybe because, IMO, the filmmakers weren't being particularly concrete, either.
--- End quote ---

That’s the beauty of metaphor and symbolism.  We can rake it over the tar for hours.



--- Quote ---I'll just call it passion for short, though (you got a better idea?).
--- End quote ---

I did once.  (Now what am *I* talking about here?    :laugh:   )



--- Quote ---So it's hard for me to put a lot of weight in the possible metaphoric meaning of a prop I'd never even seen…
--- End quote ---

Well, there’s a first time for everything.  As I said elsewhere, I didn’t catch Mrs. Twist looking out her door window to see who was there before actually opening the door.  Small, subtle detail lost on me for 150 viewings.  It must have been the beans!



--- Quote ---It's hard for me to read much significance into the fact that the filmmakers didn't make the blood some other color. Same, BTW, with the sheep. What else are they going to do?
--- End quote ---

But, they did make sure we saw it.  It didn’t have to be a gutted sheep.  It could have been lightning again this year.  And, there are only so many appearances of blood.  Ennis could have sprained his ankle and Jack could have offered a foot rub or to prop Ennis’ foot up on a log, and Ennis could have responded the same way.  But they chose blood -- five times.  They didn’t show us Ennis’ blood when he was attacked on the pavement, nor did they show us biker blood.  But they did show us Ennis’ blood after the bear, sheep blood, Ennis’ blood at the fight scene, Earl’s blood, and Jack’s blood in the tire iron scene.  We never saw Jack bleed when he was thrown from two different bulls.  Blood makes its bloody appearance at very specific moments.



--- Quote ---But isn't her hair dye more brown?
--- End quote ---

It looks really red to me, especially in the close-up after she’s packed the shirts.



--- Quote ---Also, it seems unnecessary to include metaphors explaining the relationship between the Twists, one because it's off topic and two because it's pretty clear what their relationship is like.
--- End quote ---

Well, it’s not off the topic of the significance of the color red.  Also, to follow the reasoning of your second reason, it’s pretty clear to us throughout the movie how Jack and Ennis each feel so why would the filmmakers feel they need to throw in a color (red) to show us how they feel (passion)?



--- Quote ---Hmm ... how about, red and white together equals passion mixed with foreshadowing of an ending.
--- End quote ---

As much as I’m looking for common ground, I still don’t think it takes into account the other things I mentioned, imho.



--- Quote ---Incidentally, I love how often Alma is shown in light blue -- particularly noticable in the bedroom scene -- she's a pale imitation of Jack.[
--- End quote ---

Exactly.  And when she storms away from Ennis in her green smock (relationship) covered by the blue coat (Jack), Ennis must be thinking, “Jack would never storm away from me with our relationship!”  Hmmmm, could be true, could be irony.



--- Quote ---Good one! I won't dispute the Giant.
--- End quote ---

Good thing.  NO ONE disputes the Jolly Green Giant.  If one tried, Mr. Jolly wouldn’t stay that way for long.

Front-Ranger:
Well, how would you feel about the idea of red signifying something like life-force, instead of death or passion? To me, clearly white denotes death (this is the Asian tradition) and there are several various meanings for red. Actually, red usually indicates happiness or prosperity, but Lee has something different in mind for this movie. I also noted the red-lined vest Ennis was wearing when he "kicks the bucket" in the swingset scene, and the red vest Jack wears when he returns to the trailer to sign up for a third year of work. Red in those instances definitely didn't represent death to me as the reunion had just occurred in the former case, and hadn't happened yet in the latter case.

But I have to agree with you, Ruth, about Ma Twist's hair, it is really red.

ruthlesslyunsentimental:

--- Quote from: Front-Ranger on July 06, 2006, 04:58:30 pm ---Well, how would you feel about the idea of red signifying something like life-force, ... the red vest Jack wears when he returns to the trailer to sign up for a third year of work. Red in those instances definitely didn't represent death to me as the reunion had just occurred in the former case, and hadn't happened yet in the latter case.
--- End quote ---

I can't really see a connection with life-force and red in the Aguirre trailer scene.  Besides, it seems wind is Jack's life force -- e.g., "look what the wind blew in" and the fan spinning on Jack’s entrance -- almost as if he was controlling the weather.

I don't think red means death or dying of the relationship (that would be red and green).  It does seem to represent a death or dying process of the object of attention.  In the Aguirre trailer, Jack's spirit experiences a death when Aguirre makes it clear that he saw them doing ... well, YOU know! ... up on the mountain and that he doesn't approve.  So much so that even though Aguirre hired Jack back for a second summer after the sheep loss of the first summer, Aguirre won’t hire Jack back for a third summer because of the coupling of two years worth of sheep loss plus Jack not tending to his duties, stemmin' the rose instead.

In the scene with Ennis kicking the bucket, the death or dying represented is about the relationship because this is immediately after Ennis put a big downer on Jack's suggestion for a full life together and Alma is wearing her green smock (relationship), covered in blue (Jack) walking away from Ennis.  I can also see it represent a death or dying of Ennis' spirit because of this happening immediately after the river reunion scene and Ennis dismissing Jack's suggestion.



--- Quote ---But I have to agree with you, Ruth, about Ma Twist's hair, it is really red.
--- End quote ---

So you know a dyed-hair woman too, huh?

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