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Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
Mikaela:
--- Quote ---When Ennis says, “You know I ain’t queer” and Jack says, “Me neither” … I honestly think they both believe it.
--- End quote ---
There was an op-ed article in Boston Globe on December 30 by Drew Limsky that described the way I understand Jack's "me neither" response so well that I kept the link. (It's a very Jake/Jack-centric piece, to be sure, and freely admits as much). It quotes the four lines the boys exchange on the mountainside after TS1, and continues:
".......this exchange seems realistically uninflected, with each character trying to outdo the other in manliness. And that's how Ledger plays it. But what Gyllenhaal does is let the tone of his voice go higher ever so slightly -- he gives the line readings a quality of boyish hurt that deftly conveys his sense of being erased."
I agree with that. IMO Jack knows he's "queer"; - he speaks the way he does, in reality denying his true self, strictly in order to placate Ennis. But he feels a tiny sting of hurt that he should have to do that, after what they've just shared.
In the short story, it's Jack saying 3 of those 4 lines, and there he comes across as "protesting way too much" - IMO he's just obviously saying whatever he thinks it will take to calm Ennis down and keep him at Jack's side.
From the questionnaire it seems I'm the one who goes furthest in thinking that Jack had probably already had sex with (at least) one other man before he met Ennis. No knowing who, or where, or how realistic it might be that he'd already met someone else who'd shown him the ropes..... but it's not *that* unlikely. (If one were to speculate, he *did* spend the previous year up on the mountain too, so perhaps...?)
Anyway, it's no more than a hunch and a belief on my part, of course. There's no way to be sure. What I base my view on, though, is how Jack rather self-assuredly seems to know what he wants, seem to know what to do...... and gives the impression of having already come to terms with himself and his sexuality.
While still in his (normally so insecure) teens, and having grown up in a society that goes very far in condemning homosexuality, would he have shown that level of seeming self-assurance and self-acceptance if he had only felt silent attraction to other men but had *never* acted on it with another man? Wouldn't he still be in some doubt, wouldn't he strongly want to define himself as "not queer" in order to conform with expectations, for as long as possible and until he'd proven different to himself? I see a difference between Jack and Ennis there - I think Jack *would* accept and admit openly to himself that he's "queer", once he's had some sort of sexual experience with a man - in contrast to Ennis. And I do think Jack *has* accepted that about himself *before* he mets Ennis. So.......
Add to that Jack's behaviour in the scene outside Aguirre's trailer - checking Ennis out, posing against the truck - he just seems to me to be not completely inexperienced. Nor when it comes to TS1, both in his bold first action and a little later - when Ennis pushes him down. It seems to be the accepted viewer's reading of that moment that Ennis is the active one, once Jack has opened his belt buckle, but IMO Jack is just as much pulling at Ennis's arm when he himself turns around as Ennis is pushing him down. (Erm...... well, it's such a crucial scene, of course it's been carefully studied. ::blush:: ).
The sum total of all this adds up to my belief that Jack had had some sort of prior sexual experience with another man. But trying to figure out when, where, with whom, what type of sexual experience, over how much time etc. would be crossing into pure fanfic territory. I'm sure many would say I'm waaaay in there already.
I do agree though that there is definitely much food here for a Jack-centric questionnaire! :)
--- Quote ---Seems like I just saw a discussion of this somewhere by someone with experience. If I run across it I'll let you know.
--- End quote ---
Perhaps that was in the "It ain't right" thread over on the Open Forum? The matter was recently discussed a bit over there.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 11:46:06 am --- would be crossing into pure fanfic territory. I'm sure many would say I'm waaaay in there already.
--- End quote ---
Not at all! Mikaela, everything you say makes perfect sense to me, and goes a long way to convincing me that you are right -- Jack's sexual background is not as unknowable as I thought. As you so persuasively argue, there's evidence to suggest he does have previous experience. His absolute self-assurance, his adroitness in the tent action (and, as you say, he's as active as Ennis in getting into position).
And to throw in one small additional clue -- notice he does NOT say "me neither" after Ennis says he hasn't had the opportunity to sin. On the contrary, Jack's "hmmmmm!" always sounds amusingly like, "Well, we'll have to do something about that, won't we?"
And I LOVE this:
--- Quote ---But what Gyllenhaal does is let the tone of his voice go higher ever so slightly -- he gives the line readings a quality of boyish hurt that deftly conveys his sense of being erased."
I agree with that. IMO Jack knows he's "queer"; - he speaks the way he does, in reality denying his true self, strictly in order to placate Ennis. But he feels a tiny sting of hurt that he should have to do that, after what they've just shared.
--- End quote ---
That is so true. I think I've registered that subconsciously, but never really noticed it until you point it out now. Thanks!
welliwont:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 11:46:06 am ---There was an op-ed article in Boston Globe on December 30 by Drew Limsky that described the way I understand Jack's "me neither" response so well that I kept the link. (It's a very Jake/Jack-centric piece, to be sure, and freely admits as much). It quotes the four lines the boys exchange on the mountainside after TS1, and continues:
".......this exchange seems realistically uninflected, with each character trying to outdo the other in manliness. And that's how Ledger plays it. But what Gyllenhaal does is let the tone of his voice go higher ever so slightly -- he gives the line readings a quality of boyish hurt that deftly conveys his sense of being erased."
From the questionnaire it seems I'm the one who goes furthest in thinking that Jack had probably already had sex with (at least) one other man before he met Ennis. No knowing who, or where, or how realistic it might be that he'd already met someone else who'd shown him the ropes..... but it's not *that* unlikely. (If one were to speculate, he *did* spend the previous year up on the mountain too, so perhaps...?)
--- End quote ---
Hi Mikaela:
any chance you could share that link with us?
uhm, I answered yes that I thought Jack had previous man on man experience. I did not elaborate on my answer bcz I thought that the questionnaire was meant to be short yea and nay answers. But to elaborate further, you already voiced most of my reasons for thinking that.... The fact that he makes the first move..... the fact that when Ennis flips him over he stays in the position.... The fact that when he is in the throes of passion he shows by his facial expressions and his performance there how intensely he is feeling, and by the fact that he pushes back against Ennis. So oh yeah, I think he has done this before, and beyond the initial pain at the onset I think he moves beyond the pain and and on to pleasure.
J
Mikaela:
Jane, here's the link:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/12/30/a_beautiful_doomed_dream/
--- Quote ---uhm, I answered yes
--- End quote ---
Ooops! I'm very sorry. I really should have gone back to re-read before I wrote that. :-\
--- Quote ---I did not elaborate on my answer bcz I thought that the questionnaire was meant to be short yea and nay answers.
--- End quote ---
That was my initial understanding too - but then I've slipping up into longer explanations more than once. Perhaps with future questionnaires, a reminder to try to keep the replies brief and to the point should be added? It's very easy to end up making each question a discussion thread onto itself. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as long as everyone is on the same page about it......
--- Quote ---Jack's "hmmmmm!" always sounds amusingly like, "Well, we'll have to do something about that, won't we?"
--- End quote ---
That IS what it sounds like! 8) And even though Jack is a dreamer with a vivid imagination, - yes, I do definitely think he had previous experience and knowledge of exactly what might be done about that.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 01:46:26 pm ---That was my initial understanding too - but then I've slipping up into longer explanations more than once. Perhaps with future questionnaires, a reminder to try to keep the replies brief and to the point should be added? It's very easy to end up making each question a discussion thread onto itself. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as long as everyone is on the same page about it......
--- End quote ---
I agree. When I answered my own questions in the first questionnaire, I tried to keep the answers to as few words as possible. Then when other people answered longer, I wished I'd been more explanatory myself.
I don't care which way we go as long as we all do the same thing. Maybe keep it to a sentence or two, with further discussion to be pursued later if needed?
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