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Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 10, 2006, 02:14:15 pm ---I agree. When I answered my own questions in the first questionnaire, I tried to keep the answers to as few words as possible. Then when other people answered longer, I wished I'd been more explanatory myself.
I don't care which way we go as long as we all do the same thing. Maybe keep it to a sentence or two, with further discussion to be pursued later if needed?
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I like to see the questionnaires as a jump off point for further discussion ... that is if everyone is cool with that.
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 11:46:06 am ---I agree with that. IMO Jack knows he's "queer"; - he speaks the way he does, in reality denying his true self, strictly in order to placate Ennis. But he feels a tiny sting of hurt that he should have to do that, after what they've just shared.
In the short story, it's Jack saying 3 of those 4 lines, and there he comes across as "protesting way too much" - IMO he's just obviously saying whatever he thinks it will take to calm Ennis down and keep him at Jack's side.
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I do agree with the “protesting way too much” idea … I have stated that before in previous threads. My take on that … maybe it is the same as yours … is when someone does that, they have something to hide. They are trying to convince others (and sometimes themselves) that what they are saying is true.
--- Quote ---Anyway, it's no more than a hunch and a belief on my part, of course. There's no way to be sure. What I base my view on, though, is how Jack rather self-assuredly seems to know what he wants, seem to know what to do...... and gives the impression of having already come to terms with himself and his sexuality.
While still in his (normally so insecure) teens, and having grown up in a society that goes very far in condemning homosexuality, would he have shown that level of seeming self-assurance and self-acceptance if he had only felt silent attraction to other men but had *never* acted on it with another man? Wouldn't he still be in some doubt, wouldn't he strongly want to define himself as "not queer" in order to conform with expectations, for as long as possible and until he'd proven different to himself? I see a difference between Jack and Ennis there - I think Jack *would* accept and admit openly to himself that he's "queer", once he's had some sort of sexual experience with a man - in contrast to Ennis. And I do think Jack *has* accepted that about himself *before* he mets Ennis. So.......
Add to that Jack's behaviour in the scene outside Aguirre's trailer - checking Ennis out, posing against the truck - he just seems to me to be not completely inexperienced. Nor when it comes to TS1, both in his bold first action and a little later - when Ennis pushes him down. It seems to be the accepted viewer's reading of that moment that Ennis is the active one, once Jack has opened his belt buckle, but IMO Jack is just as much pulling at Ennis's arm when he himself turns around as Ennis is pushing him down. (Erm...... well, it's such a crucial scene, of course it's been carefully studied. ::blush:: ).
The sum total of all this adds up to my belief that Jack had had some sort of prior sexual experience with another man. But trying to figure out when, where, with whom, what type of sexual experience, over how much time etc. would be crossing into pure fanfic territory. I'm sure many would say I'm waaaay in there already.
I do agree though that there is definitely much food here for a Jack-centric questionnaire! :)
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--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 10, 2006, 10:28:48 am ---For me, the story doesn't help interpret the movie on this point. In the story, yes, their TS1 is portrayed as a mutually initiated, first-time-for-both thing. If anything, Ennis is the more aggressive one ("ran full-throttle"). The movie is different -- Jack initiates, Ennis stops to consider, then decides to go for it. Also, the movie goes out of its way to show Jack overtly checking out Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer. Also, in the movie Jack makes at least a couple of mini-moves before his big one in the tent: 1) his ministrations to Ennis after the bear and 2) "the point is, we should both be sleeping in this camp."
This is one of those cases in which I think the movie characters are more distinguishable and well developed than the story characters.
This would be a good issue to take up in a Jackcentric questionnaire (Amanda?). IMO, Jack has accepted his sexuality long before he shows up at Aguirre's trailer. Whether he's actually had sex, I don't know. But he knows that about himself -- hell, his parents may already know it -- and has accepted it to the point that when he gets there and sees the hottie he's going to spend a summer alone with ... well, the gears are already turning there in the parking lot. Thus his self-consciously cowboy-macho poses and his rear-view-mirror checking out.
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Mikaela and Katherine – I am using both of your quotes because I think you are very close to being on the same page.
I think I stated (somewhere on this link??) that, initially, I was convinced Jack had been with another man (men?) prior to Ennis. It could be that after having read the short story my POV shifted. That is why (and I agree with you on this), I should not always use the story as a way to interpret the film … even the screenplay. Body language, vocal styles, etc. all make a different statement than what is reflected on the page.
This is what I feeling strongly about (and it dwindles with every note I write!!):
• Jack is in touch with his attraction to men (I think that is a uniformed consensus).
• Jack is definitely checking out Ennis from the time he steps out of his car at Aguirre’s parking lot (I think that is also a uniformed consensus).
I have to admit that sometimes I over think things. My first impression was that, yes, Jack did have experience.
Here are (portions) of two reviews:
Rolling Stone Magazine: Peter Travers
Ennis is quiet, but whiskey and Jack's talk about his rodeo riding loosens Ennis' tongue and his inhibitions. One cold night they share a bedroll. Jack gives the impression of experience. For Ennis, this is nothing he'd done before, but no instructional manual is needed.
Newsday: Jan Stuart
The two strangers are, conventionally speaking, made for each other. Jack is personable, playful, a talker. Ennis is stoic and repressed, parceling out the gift of speech mostly to express how tired he is of eating beans.
Their simmering mutual attraction overtakes them by surprise, in a violent coital burst. But it haunts them long after they have settled, hundreds of miles apart, into fitfully content married lives: Jack with a Texas businesswoman (Anne Hathaway) and Ennis with an adoring Montana house drudge (Michelle Williams).
So what does this tell me? This film is intentionally ambiguous. Every person who watches it takes away something different. That is the only thing I know for sure. Beyond that, my opinion shifts on a daily basis. So, as of today … I am going to stick with the idea that Jack did not have sex with a man prior to BBM … but that is not to say he didn’t want to. That is also not to say I won't change my mind tomorrow.
serious crayons:
Well, the film is intentionally ambiguous, all right. But as for what review say ... I believe people on this board know far, far, far more about BBM than any movie critic (except of course for the people on this board who ARE movie critics; I know there's at least one). So although reviews were helpful to me to sort out my thoughts early on, and the really well written reviews were helpful even longer than that, by now I wouldn't expect to find much in a review that would change my opinion about something.
(In fact, some of the reviews, even by critics I ordinarily respect, get some things way wrong.)
Mikaela:
--- Quote ---My take on that … maybe it is the same as yours … is when someone does that, they have something to hide. They are trying to convince others (and sometimes themselves) that what they are saying is true.
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Yep, I agree with that. Short story Jack is mainly trying to convince Ennis.
--- Quote ---I don't care which way we go as long as we all do the same thing. Maybe keep it to a sentence or two, with further discussion to be pursued later if needed?
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I agree with that - though a simple "yes" or "no" is entirely fine as a reply, too! :D
--- Quote ---This film is intentionally ambiguous.
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And did they ever manage to live up to their intentions!! So many matters can be interpreted more than one way - there's food for reflection and discussion for forever and a day. It's wonderfully gifted storytelling, managing to involve and engage and move the viewer every little step of the way.
--- Quote ---Ennis is stoic and repressed, parceling out the gift of speech mostly to express how tired he is of eating beans.
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LOL. Who said reviews couldn't point out entirely new insights? I never noticed this being Ennis's main gripe. ;)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 07:41:32 pm ---I agree with that - though a simple "yes" or "no" is entirely fine as a reply, too! :D
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Well, now that we're all agreed about the groundrules, how about somebody coming up with another questionnaire!
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--- Quote ---Ennis is stoic and repressed, parceling out the gift of speech mostly to express how tired he is of eating beans.
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LOL. Who said reviews couldn't point out entirely new insights? I never noticed this being Ennis's main gripe. ;)
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LOL. I missed that the first time. Yeah, he's so stoic and repressed, he never even actually says it!
welliwont:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 10, 2006, 07:50:20 pm ---Well, now that we're all agreed about the groundrules, how about somebody coming up with another questionnaire!
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uhm, I don't think we've all weighed in on this one, better put it in the form of a question?? (*snicker, snicker* yuk yuk!*) :laugh:
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