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Fun Brokeback Questionnaires 3
dly64:
--- Quote ---When Ennis awakens and realizes where his hand is …. is his first reaction to hit Jack?
Diane – Yes. When he gets past the “surprise” element, passion overtakes him … and (you know the rest). ::)
Ruthlessly – No. It seems his first reaction was to get away from it. Then he went into confusion as to what Jack was doing. Then Jack showed him by putting Ennis’ hand on Jack’s crotch. Then Jack took off his coat. Then Ennis figured he’d gotten enough signals. And the rest is history.
Mikaela -- First reaction seems to be getting away.
Katherine -- Ennis bolts up in surprise, sees what's going on, makes a quick mental calculation, not all of it fully conscious: "Here's something I always told myself I'd never, ever do -- in fact, half convinced myself I don't want to do. But let's face it, I really do want to do it -- in fact, have been wanting to with Jack for weeks -- and here's my big chance." In those five seconds, his life changes.
goadra -- No, just pulling back from the fire.
Amanda= No. It looks to me like he might be trying to head for the tent flap... just a bit before Jack grabs him. I agree, Ennis changes his mind/ recognizes that this is his big opportunity as soon as Jack sits up. It also looks like Jack pulls Ennis's hand back to his crotch again almost immediately once he sits up and grabs Ennis's sleeve. It's hard to tell because their hands are off screen in the widescreen edition, but from the angle of their arms this seems possible.
Jane - no, his first reaction is WTF?!!! PS: You're right Amanda, he is putting his hand back, if you watch the Fullscreen you get more of a sense of that.
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Okay Amanda and Jane - I have the widescreen edition, but my DVD player allows me to magnify the image (and makes it into full screen). It does appear that Jack does put Ennis' hand back on his crotch. However, does that make sense? Especially if, when Jack starts to take off his jacket, Ennis says, "What're you doin'?" I mean, if his hand was on Jack's hard, ummmm (you know the rest) ... don't you think he'd know what Jack was doing?
Note: Just as an FYI .... Slow motion is a very good thing! Let me just say that I have caught a lot more things than I had before.
welliwont:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 09, 2006, 06:47:16 pm --- It does appear that Jack does put Ennis' hand back on his crotch. However, does that make sense? Especially if, when Jack starts to take off his jacket, Ennis says, "What're you doin'?" I mean, if his hand was on Jack's hard, ummmm (you know the rest) ... don't you think he'd know what Jack was doing?
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Well even though Jack put Ennis' hand on him twice, Ennis is still clued out, drunk, and he's never done anything like this before! ...hummmm, nothin like the first time!
--- Quote ---Note: Just as an FYI .... Slow motion is a very good thing! Let me just say that I have caught a lot more things than I had before.
--- End quote ---
Yes. sloooow motion is a verrrrrry good thing!!!
Brown Eyes:
Yeah, I think the "what are you doing?" comment is just continuing confusion on Ennis's part. He may be in a state of disbelief that this is really happening. The way he says it too... really emphasizes that he's both very drunk and still very sleepy.
dly64:
I would enjoy hearing further feedback on the following ...
--- Quote ---Does Jack purposely get Ennis drunk before TS1 to lower Ennis’ inhibitions so they can have sex? Or, does Jack get excited at the point when Ennis lies beside him?
Diane – IMO, there was no preplanning on Jack’s part. He became excited when Ennis’ warm body was lying beside his.
Ruthlessly – I agree.
Mikaela -- jack did not get Ennis drunk on any kind of purpose Katherine -- He didn't purposely get Ennis drunk. But he'd been hoping for a while for a chance to ... get closer. That's part of why he says, "That's not the point -- we should both be in this camp." When Ennis decided to stick around for the night Jack saw a possible opportunity, so he encourages Ennis (twice) to join him in the tent.
goadra -- Hmmm, don’t think so. They drank whiskey by the fire at least a couple of other times--and Ennis did not get drunk. So Ennis’s getting drunk that particular night shows that they spent much more time together.
Amanda= I think Jack has been trying to figure out a way for the two of them to be in the main camp together for most of their time on the mountain. I think his cute bitching is all about trying to "get the opportunity" to share the tent with Ennis. I think this is why he seems hesitant when Ennis suggests the job switch. I think instead of wanting Ennis to offer to tend the sheep himself, Jack was hoping Ennis would say "forget about sleeping out with the sheep and come stay in the main camp instead. But, no I don't think Jack deliberately got Ennis drunk. Whiskey is just part of a good time for both of them. I don't think there were ulterior motives.
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I find it fascinating that several individuals have thought Jack was trying to find a way to get into bed with Ennis. One thing the screenplay states, but is opposite in the film, is that Jack is the one who says it is too late for Ennis to go up to the sheep (which would support your POV). It is interesting that Ang decided to change it. I originally was on the same page with most of you … that Jack was working overtime to find a way to sleep with Ennis. (Note that ever since I have been on BetterMost my POV has vacillated … I am like a ping pong ball going all over the place). This, however, plays into the following point ….
--- Quote ---At the time of TS1 – had Jack or Ennis ever have sex with another man?
Diane – No.
Ruthlessly – Ennis, no. Jack, quite possibly.
Mikaela -- Ennis, no. Jack, probably.
goadra -- Ennis, no. Jack, don’t know.
Amanda= Ennis no (I truly think he's a virgin. Jack is his first-time and his first love). Jack, well I'd like to think this is symmetrical with Ennis here (well, I'm sure this is also Jack's first love)... But I wonder, despite the grimmacing and pounding, if Jack is having an easier time of it than would be likely for a virgin (**insert non-existent blushing smilie here... maybe a few blushing smilies**). Maybe Jake was trying to convey this (discomfort, pain, etc.) with the pounding... but it seems like it would probably be even more intense than that if Jack was a virgin. I guess on this topic, I'll defer to people who might know more about this than me.
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I am basically the only one who has thought, decidedly, that Jack did not sleep with a man before. The film did make Jack a little more overt in his attraction to Ennis than the short story or screenplay. He is definitely checking out Ennis, especially when he is peeling the potato and Ennis is bathing, nude. (I find it humorous that Jack is trying not to look, but can’t help himself).
A few things have shaped my opinion …
1. In the story, it is Jack who says this is a one shot thing. Granted … here I go again, using the story and screenplay … I know the film can stand alone and should be looked as a separate entity. For me, however, it helps to show Jack’s frame of reference.
2. When Ennis says, “You know I ain’t queer” and Jack says, “Me neither” … I honestly think they both believe it. IMO, they are both homophobic … albeit Jack learns to accept it (privately) … but post BBM. Ennis never does accept it (or if he does come to that conclusion, it is very late in the film).
3. They both have fear … especially post mountain. That is why they both get married … to prove to themselves and others that they are straight (which, as we all know turns out to be disastrous for all involved).
4. Jack is only 19, has been bullriding (testosterone city!!) and is living in Wyoming. I can’t see that he would have been sleeping around with men. This doesn’t mean he didn’t realize his attraction to men. Had Ennis and Jack both been sober, TS1 wouldn’t have happened. Once they had sex, however, that was it … no turning back. IMO, BBM symbolizes freedom from societal mores … freedom to express their love for each other openly …. freedom to be their authentic selves … freedom from fear and homophobia. Off BBM … everything is the opposite. (I hope I am making sense)
*** Amanda – I also am no pro at how painful it would be to have sex for the first time … umm … in that way (blush). I do think Jake tries to show ecstasy and a degree of pain. Not sure, either. Maybe someone with experience could enlighten me? ::)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 10, 2006, 09:04:19 am ---He is definitely checking out Ennis, especially when he is peeling the potato and Ennis is bathing, nude. (I find it humorous that Jack is trying not to look, but can’t help himself).
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The way I see it: yes, he is trying not to look, yes, he really wants to -- but he actually doesn't!
--- Quote --- In the story, it is Jack who says this is a one shot thing. Granted … here I go again, using the story and screenplay … I know the film can stand alone and should be looked as a separate entity. For me, however, it helps to show Jack’s frame of reference.
--- End quote ---
For me, the story doesn't help interpret the movie on this point. In the story, yes, their TS1 is portrayed as a mutually initiated, first-time-for-both thing. If anything, Ennis is the more aggressive one ("ran full-throttle"). The movie is different -- Jack initiates, Ennis stops to consider, then decides to go for it. Also, the movie goes out of its way to show Jack overtly checking out Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer. Also, in the movie Jack makes at least a couple of mini-moves before his big one in the tent: 1) his ministrations to Ennis after the bear and 2) "the point is, we should both be sleeping in this camp."
This is one of those cases in which I think the movie characters are more distinguishable and well developed than the story characters.
--- Quote ---When Ennis says, “You know I ain’t queer” and Jack says, “Me neither” … I honestly think they both believe it. IMO, they are both homophobic … albeit Jack learns to accept it (privately) … but post BBM.
--- End quote ---
This would be a good issue to take up in a Jackcentric questionnaire (Amanda?). IMO, Jack has accepted his sexuality long before he shows up at Aguirre's trailer. Whether he's actually had sex, I don't know. But he knows that about himself -- hell, his parents may already know it -- and has accepted it to the point that when he gets there and sees the hottie he's going to spend a summer alone with ... well, the gears are already turning there in the parking lot. Thus his self-consciously cowboy-macho poses and his rear-view-mirror checking out.
So no, IMO, Jack doesn't mean "Me neither" -- he's just saying that to placate Ennis (for that matter, I don't think even Ennis totally believes it). If Jack harbors any culturally imposed homophobia, he has done a remarkable job of freeing himself from it, given the place and time. That's one of Jack's amazing qualities: not to be intimidated by other people's opinions or criticism or rules.
--- Quote ---That is why they both get married … to prove to themselves and others that they are straight.
--- End quote ---
That's why Ennis gets married (well, less as a deliberate action to prove something, than because the marriage was already in the works and of course he'd go through with it because he's not queer). Jack gets married because he's broke, because he keeps striking out with men (Jimbo, IMO, is the tip of the iceberg). And here comes this lovely, wealthy woman aggressively pursuing him. He rather passively allows himself to be pursued, and next thing he knows ...
--- Quote ---Jack is only 19, has been bullriding (testosterone city!!) and is living in Wyoming. I can’t see that he would have been sleeping around with men.
--- End quote ---
Impossible to know, IMO. As the movie shows, gay men exist in testosterone city, and somebody else may have already shown Jack the ropes. Or not. I can't tell.
--- Quote ---Had Ennis and Jack both been sober, TS1 woldn’t have happened.
--- End quote ---
Had Ennis responded differently to Jack's ministrations, TS1 would have happened the night of the bear incident. Had they left Brokeback at the end of the summer without TS1 ever happening, Jack would have been mighty disappointed. (Ennis too, though less consciously.)
--- Quote ---*** Amanda – I also am no pro at how painful it would be to have sex for the first time … umm … in that way (blush). I do think Jake tries to show ecstasy and a degree of pain. Not sure, either. Maybe someone with experience could enlighten me? ::)
--- End quote ---
Seems like I just saw a discussion of this somewhere by someone with experience. If I run across it I'll let you know.
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