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Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
Mikaela:
--- Quote ---I am not convinced Jack told his folks anything except that Ennis was his friend. Mrs. Twist certainly knew about the shirts … I think she found them. Mr. Twist heard Jack talking about Ennis and concluded that it was more than a friendship … it was likely a gay relationship.
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I didn't mean to imply that I think Jack told his parents he was gay - or that Ennis was. Far from it. That's never even entered my mind. I simply think that as his parents listened to Jack talking about Ennis; - his friend who was to come up help him lick the ranch into shape; - quite animatedly and obviously more then once (Jack used to say...."), - they caught on to the truth. Jack probably never even realized that. He must just have been happy for this opportunity of telling someone about Ennis, saying ennis's name out loud, even when the listener was his horrible father.
However that may be, Jack needn't have said one word about Ennis to his parents, - Ennis would have expected him to have said little or nothing, I think. That Jack *had* actually told them enough to let them catch on to the real nature of his relationship with Ennis (and left the shirts there as further confirmation for Jack's mother to find and interpret) must have come as atotal surprise to Ennis; - and, I postulate, will benefit Ennis in the long run once he had time to process the Twist couple's behaviour.
I realize that wasn't perhaps entirely clear in my post above - I had recently written a longer post on the same topic in another thread and must subconsciously have assumed that the content of that first post was be apparent from this shorter one without being specifically referenced. My bad.
Otherwise, I completely agree with Katherine's comments. Except I have a tiny niggle when it comes to this ;):
--- Quote ---(Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.)
--- End quote ---
I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."
I wondered about that scene and what it meant till I had the opportunity to see the Shamus-edited script version and particularly the scene where Jack gives Ennis a fine gun, which Ennis hotly refuses to accept, stressing in his reply to Jack that the gun's too valuable, and that he's keenly aware of their differing financial status - and that it pains him. Yes, I know that scene was removed, and so shouldn't really be referred to as bearing on the understanding of the film, but IMO it's one of several instances where dialogue was altered and/or a scene was removed not because the writers and filmmakers thought it misrepresented their vision of the characters, but because it wasn't low-key and ambiguous enough. They did take great care to ensure ambiguity in scene after scene, through fine-tuning the dialogue etc.
Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is. :)
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 02:48:09 pm ---I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."
--- End quote ---
OK, I can buy that. There goes one of the three times (or is it just two?) in the whole movie when Jack's behavior was less than optimal!
--- Quote ---Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is. :)
--- End quote ---
Well, I agree the difference in their financial situation is certainly made obvious, but I don't know how much of a strain I think it created between them. Do you think Ennis is resentful of it? He never seems to be; even when he says Jack forgets what it's like to be broke all the time he seems mainly to be stating a simple fact: Jack doesn't have to worry about his financial status. It probably helps that Jack never makes an issue of it, either. Jack is willing to drive to Wyoming because he's got the better truck, makes no bones about the source of his wealth being his father-in-law, never brags about his possessions or gets hoity-toity.
However, maybe there's evidence of strain that I've overlooked?
Back to Mr. Twist. Quoting myself again, from my previous post:
--- Quote ---My point is that when Mr. Twist talks about it, he very obviously focuses his criticism not on Jack leaving his wife to live with a man -- but on Jack's failure to follow through with yet another of his ideas. I think the nature of his criticism is what's significant, not whether Mr. Twist took it seriously in the first place.
--- End quote ---
I should clarify that I don't know whether he genuinely resents that Jack didn't follow through. He might, since the ranch looks like it could use the help. Or he might be criticizing Jack just for the hell of it, out of habit and contempt. The point is, though, that of two the things he could find to critize Jack for in that situation -- leaving his wife for a man vs. not following up on his plan to do so -- he chose the more surprising one, the one that's not only not homophobic but actually implicitly endorses homosexual behavior.
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 10, 2006, 02:02:00 pm ---Hunh? This I don't get at all. Why would a 39-year-old man see a role model in an obnoxious old geezer whom he has ever reason to dislike and with whom he has spent no more than an hour or so? And even if so, given that Ennis was taught from childhood that his sexuality should be hated and despised, and given that he was perfectly capable of reinforcing that lesson to himself, thank you very much, and given that all of his other experiences that afternoon had if anything shown him that his sexuality was more nonchalantly accepted than he would imagine possible ... then why on earth would Mr. Twist's views make him feel any more homophobic? Or why would his being convinced Jack was murdered make him more homophobic? If anything, I would think both those experiences would push him in exactly the opposite direction.
--- End quote ---
I reread my note and I have no idea what I was talking about. I think I started to get a bit sleepy at that moment. I think the point I was making (albeit worded badly ….. ) ummm … actually, I don’t know what I was trying to say. Maybe I was trying to psychologically analyze the situation … Ennis’ dad was homophobic. Ennis transfers what he knows onto Jack’s father … so the assumption is that he is homophobic, too. (Is that Ennis doing that or me? Who knows? I am rambling at this moment).
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 10, 2006, 02:48:09 pm ---“To clarify: I'm not saying MYSELF that Jack is snooty! I'd never say that. (Well, I might say he was a tiny bit tactless in his "If taxes don't take it, inflation eats it up ..." remark, given that he's talking to someone much poorer than himself.) I'm saying that's an alternate explanation for what Mr. Twist means when he calls Jack "too special." Jack obviously climbed a few rungs above his parents in socioeconomic status, and Mr. Twist possibly resents that.”
I think Jack says that exactly because he's very aware he's talking to someone poorer than himself. I think it's yet another of those many Jack-attempts at comforting and soothing Ennis. "Don't worry that I'm richer than you, - having money only creates problems, makes me behave in a laughable manner (or at least my wife does...) and it all gets eaten by taxes and inflation anyway."
Removing the gun-giving scene ensured (among other matters) that the tension inherent in Jack being much more financially well off than Ennis was not prematurely made into a BIG POINT out in the open between the two, but remained lurking under the surface, demonstrated by the difference in cars and clothes and equipment - until the final lake confrontation when Ennis says it right out loud. Nevertheless, I think both of them are entirely aware of it as the years go by, and that there is a perceived strain on their relationship from it, - and I believe that is why Jack tells Ennis of all the hassle and problems of actually having money. Perhaps not his most successful soothing tactic, but there it is.
--- End quote ---
I agree with what you are getting at. Just as an added point … that whole “inflation scene” … Ennis says, “That sure sounds like high class entertainment” and Jack says, “For what it’s worth”. IMO, the money is not something that Jack cares a lot about. He has it, but would give it up if he could have lived the “sweet life” that he envisioned with Ennis.
This whole issue sparked another thought … doesn’t all of the money issues (i.e. the differences between Jack and Ennis) actually start on BBM? Jack offers Ennis a loan and Ennis hotly rejects it. Could this be a reason that Jack downplays the money so often?
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: dly64 on July 10, 2006, 04:04:30 pm ---Ennis’ dad was homophobic. Ennis transfers what he knows onto Jack’s father … so the assumption is that he is homophobic, too. (Is that Ennis doing that or me? Who knows?
--- End quote ---
Diane, you've hit upon my exact point! The movie very deliberately leads us AND Ennis to assume that Mr. Twist is a homophobe. He ran Jack off, rejected him, never taught him a thing, etc. And because we know Jack is gay, we make the assumption that that's why his father was abusive, and Ennis probably makes the same assumption -- hell, he probably assumes all fathers are homophobes.
But then ... he isn't! It's a surprise twist, so to speak.
--- Quote ---Jack offers Ennis a loan and Ennis hotly rejects it. Could this be a reason that Jack downplays the money so often?
--- End quote ---
I think this scene suffices to make the point that would have been made with the gun thing. Of course, it's also about Ennis being hurt that Jack's not upset about leaving the mountain early. But it does double duty, also showing that Ennis wouldn't want to accept money from Jack, and teaching Jack not to offer.
Mikaela:
I'm on a posting roll today, it seems. :o
--- Quote ---I don't know how much of a strain I think it created between them. Do you think Ennis is resentful of it? He never seems to be; even when he says Jack forgets what it's like to be broke all the time he seems mainly to be stating a simple fact: Jack doesn't have to worry about his financial status.
--- End quote ---
I don't think it puts an immense strain on the relationship, but I do think it's there. Ennis obviously feels embarrassed that he's got less money than Jack early on; "I ain't in the poorhouse". It does affect Ennis's and Alma's marriage - creating disagreements that Ennis would rather have been without and that ( partly at least) were directly caused by his relationship with Jack and so reflected on the relationship; keeping to those low-paying jobs he could quit at any time. The "what's the point of making it" scene in itself confirms that money or the lack of same is an actual topic among Jack and Ennis. And while I agree that Ennis says the "You forget what it's like being broke all the time" line in a rather non-accusatory way, quite matter-of-factly, it *is* an assertion that Ennis sees as a fact - and he's obviously thought about it. I also see the emotional "I'm nothing, I'm nowhere" as having a certain financial aspect to it. "Being a noone" is often associated with being poor, isn't it? IMO this all adds up to a sliver of resentment, certainly no very major thing, not something the filmmakers wanted to put undue emphasis on, but still there, adding its subtle bit to the increasing strain on Ennis's and Jack's relationship over the years. It's something so very human that I would almost have thought Ennis a complete saint if it *hadn't* been there.
--- Quote ---IMO, the money is not something that Jack cares a lot about. He has it, but would give it up if he could have lived the “sweet life” that he envisioned with Ennis.
--- End quote ---
Yes, that was one of my two main interpretations when I tried to figure out what exactly Jack meant in talking about "the point of making it". Originally, it was my favoured interpretation. And though I've eventually landed on another view of that specific scene, I still completely agree that Jack would have given it all upif he only could have had his sweet life with Ennis. If he actually made concrete plans to move back to the dilapidated Twist ranch with Randall, - that's proof enough that he knew being well off didn't matter much without any kind of happiness and love in your life.
But..... Jack wasn't unaffected by the money. He liked having them. Early on he and Ennis agreed "money was a good point" and I'm pretty sure Lureen's money was one of several main reasons he married her - the only reason he gives Ennis, in fact. And I have to wonder; - if a rich marriage and money down in Texas meant so little to Jack, why didn't he leave and return to Wyoming to live closer to Ennis, in order to be able to cross Ennis's path more often, even if Ennis insisted he wouldn't give him the sweet life? Why was Jack so passive in changing their circumstances in order to try to change Ennis's mind? Could money be one of his several reasons there, too? I think Ennis was wrong in one thing: Jack *didn't* forget what it was like, being broke all the time - and I think he didn't particularly wish to re-live that memory, unless it came with a virtual guarantee of a sweet life with ....someone.
--- Quote ---...doesn’t all of the money issues (i.e. the differences between Jack and Ennis) actually start on BBM?
--- End quote ---
Yes, in the very first scene, even - when Ennis carefully preserves his last half cigarette, and then goes wild and smokes it all up in the bar with Jack. ;) Ennis has one beer there, Jack has several - from the very first Jack shows that he has more money than Ennis. And that financial gap widens and widens over the years.
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