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Fun Brokeback questionnaire 2
Mikaela:
Not to worry, Katherine - I think it's all worked out well enough in the end. About the questionnaires, I mean. :)
--- Quote ---This whole issue of Jack's parents knowing- and Ennis finding out that they know demonstrates to Ennis here that his two greatest fears have come true. One of his greatest fears is that people will know he's queer/ know about his love for Jack and the other is his fear of homophobic violence. ( ) And, on the topic of people knowing his secret... I think Ennis is learning that it's not always quite so scary for people to know as he might have expected. Mrs. Twist demonstrates such a deep degree of sympathy and respect towards Ennis that hopefully she's showing him that some people would and do honor his love for Jack.
--- End quote ---
Oh, yes! There was some discussion recently about this on another thread - and lazy sod that I am, I went and dug out my old post:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=2940.msg50865#msg50865
Several good posts in that thread, I think - including from Katherine (are there *any* threads without insightful posts by Katherine?)
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 08, 2006, 06:31:38 pm ---For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.
So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!
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Oh, I totally agree with this. John Twist is annoying and seems to enjoy needling Ennis... but you get the sense that he'd do this to anyone and everyone. If Jack introduced Lureen to his father I can imagine John Twist being a jerk to her too (he's a jerk to Jack, probably to his wife, etc.... As you said, it's just an unfortunate aspect of his personality and not directed at anything specific to do with Jack's sexuality... or his irritability is not exlusively channeled into homophobia). His reaction to Ennis most certainly doesn't seem as bad as it could be or as bad as Ennis would expect either.
Thanks for the link Mikaela!
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 08, 2006, 07:17:31 pm ---Several good posts in that thread, I think - including from Katherine
--- End quote ---
(insert whole row of blushing icons here)
Wow, that's really nice of you to say, Mikaela. But let me return the compliment! The best insights come when everybody's flinging insightful posts back and forth and building off each other's, as is so often the case here. I am continually amazed by what I have learned on these boards. I staggered out of my first viewing of Brokeback thinking, "Hmm ... wonder if that dead sheep had some kind of symbolic meaning?"
dly64:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 08, 2006, 06:31:38 pm ---Yes, he probably never dreamed of such a compassionate reaction -- the idea that anybody could know without being horrified or disgusted or whatever probably never occurred to him
For that matter, I bet Ennis is pretty surprised by Mr. Twist's reaction. The old man indicates from the get-go that he "knows where Brokeback Mountain is." And he is unquestionably a rude and obnoxious jerk, both from his behavior and from what Jack has said about him. Yet despite his unpleasant personality -- pppfffftttt -- he doesn't seem all that bothered by Jack's homosexuality. That's arguable, I know, because his "thought he was too goddamn special to be buried in the family plot," kind of hints that Jack breached "family values." Yet Mr. Twist seems to have been more or less open to the idea of Jack bringing Ennis or another fella up there to lick that damn ranch into shape. He gets that kind of crazy glint in his eye -- "Ennis del Mar, he used to say ..." -- but shows surprisingly little outright objection. He seems to reserve most of his scorn for the fact that Jack's idea never came to pass.
So here's Jack's actual father, a man already established as a cold and neglectful jerk, confronting a son planning to leave his wife and ranch up with another man -- yet he's not threatening murder or anything close! On the contrary, he seems most disapproving of Jack's failure to follow through with it!
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: atz75 on July 08, 2006, 07:18:30 pm ---Oh, I totally agree with this. John Twist is annoying and seems to enjoy needling Ennis... but you get the sense that he'd do this to anyone and everyone. If Jack introduced Lureen to his father I can imagine John Twist being a jerk to her too (he's a jerk to Jack, probably to his wife, etc.... As you said, it's just an unfortunate aspect of his personality and not directed at anything specific to do with Jack's sexuality... or his irritability is not exlusively channeled into homophobia). His reaction to Ennis most certainly doesn't seem as bad as it could be or as bad as Ennis would expect either.
--- End quote ---
Gosh, guys ... I don't know if I can agree with what you are saying. (although I am finding what I thought was true is not necessarily correct … so I have been changing my mind a lot recently).
John Twist was a jerk ... we all know this to be true. However, he had a very troubled relationship with Jack. Jack indicated this a few times .... "Beats workin' for my old man. Can’t please my old man no way …” and “ My ol’ man was a bullrider, pretty well known in his day, though he kept his secrets to himself. Never taught me a thing. Never once come to see me ride.” What I take from this is a constant feeling that anything Jack tried to do or wanted in his life was going to be beaten down by his father. Knowing that Ennis was Jack’s lover (I am making the assumption that John T. was fully aware that Jack was gay), he wanted to destroy Ennis. When he goes into his speech about “Jack used to say, ‘Ennis Del Mar,’ he used to say ….” Mr. Twist is speaking angrily, accusatory. Note that after he says this and before he goes into the “other fella ..” speech, he spits. The definition for spit is:
1 a (1) : to eject saliva as an expression of aversion or contempt (2) : to exhibit contempt
IMO, this is what John Twist is doing. He is disgusted with Jack. He is disgusted with Ennis. He doesn’t want to give up Jack’s ashes because he knows this is what Jack wanted. He also knows this is what Ennis wants. BBM is a symbol of Jack and Ennis’ love. Mr. Twist represents the societal disdain for homosexuality. So, even in Jack’s death, Mr. Twist is going to be the controlling jerk of a bastard that he has always been. As usual, Jack can’t please his “ol’ man no way …” … Mr. Twist is going to do the opposite of what Jack wanted. When Mr. Twist says to Ennis angrily, “Tell you what, we got a family plot and he’s goin’ in it …” it as if he spitting again. An explanation point to his hateful attitude toward Ennis and Jack.
Brown Eyes:
Don't get me wrong... John Twist is an awful person. Abusive, spiteful, mean-spirited, etc. I'm certainly not defending him as a character. But, it does sort of seem like he would have let Jack move up to the ranch with Ennis or the "other fellow". He would have complained about it, made fun of them, picked on them, grumbled about it, etc. But still... it appears that he may have been willing to let it happen. I also think that once he got used to John Twist, Ennis would have been more than capable of standing up to him if he had decided to move to Lightning Flat with Jack.
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