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Jack's questionnaire
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 12, 2006, 03:23:14 am ---You know, I've thought some more about this. I still have a lot of respect for your idea, Ruthlessly; it makes plenty of sense.
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You’ve always had a knack for recognizing quality. :laugh:
--- Quote ---And if he hadn't died, Ennis would have had a chance to change his ways and save the relationship, which I like to think he would have done, so fine.
It's that I don't want Jack to die knowing he was planning to end it with Ennis. I don't want to think that his last earthly thoughts of Ennis and their relationshp would have involved not just frustration but outright despair and heartbreak, or -- worse -- the firm resolution to put Ennis in the past. That turns the already excessive sadness up a notch further. That's why the romantic optimist part of me reflexively resists this scenario.
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I fully understand your saying this. As you say, it comes from the optimist in you. Nothing wrong with that. Buuutttt – here’s my big but again – Ennis changing his ways is a huge leap. Overcoming all of his fears. Huge leap for Ennis. Also, how about this? Think of Jack’s last, final wishes and thoughts for Ennis being that Jack loved him so much that he did the right thing for him.
--- Quote ---Meanwhile, I have a couple of more practical qualms. Your argument is that quitting would be the kind thing for Jack to do, a favor motivated by love. But even if Jack believed quitting was best for Ennis, that doesn't necessarily mean he could bear to make the sacrifice. (Which he might find harder than the sacrifices he's already made to stick with Ennis.)
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Hardly a “favor!” Everything else, no doubt. Well said. And what are its implications?
--- Quote ---Why do I find this selfish-love concept more appealing than its opposite? I don't know, but somehow in this case I do.
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Because you’re ruthlessly sentimental. ;)
--- Quote ---Also, maybe Jack didn't take Ennis' collapse literally.
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I didn’t mean to suggest that Jack took it literally. All I meant was that Jack saw what all of this standing had done to him – what a toll the destructive effects of rural homophobia have had on Ennis.
--- Quote ---If your theory partly depends on Jack concluding that because the relationship is tearing Ennis apart Ennis would be better off alone, I don't know that I agree either that the underlying assumption is correct or that Jack assumed it. If Ennis can't stand it no more being in a relationship with Jack, I can't begin to tell you how bad he'd feel if Jack broke it off. A huge sense of freedom and relief? Of course not. I believe his heartbreak would far outweigh the stress caused by the 20-year balancing act. I think it's possible that Jack believes this, too.
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“Partly depends…” Yes. Partly.
How bad Ennis would **feel** versus how destroyed and eaten away he was by standing. No doubt it would hurt Ennis immeasurably. But it’s not the same thing as having all of his inner conflicts, all of his fears, all of his self-concept constantly destroying him. I also never said that Jack quitting Ennis couldn’t be **the** catalyst for Ennis to change. Above, you said “…Ennis would have had a chance to change his ways and save the relationship, which I like to think he would have done.” And I said “Huge leap.” You didn’t provide a catalyst. I do here – Jack quitting Ennis – huge catalyst. By Jack quitting Ennis, you could get the optimistic outcome. Except for the fact … well, too late.
--- Quote ---When Ennis contradicts his own motto and says he can't stand this no more, some people hear him saying he wants to get out of the situation. But I (and maybe Jack!) hear him saying he wants to fix the situation.
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I see nothing wrong with either. But, regardless whether Ennis wants to fix it, is he able to? Wouldn’t it take something big? The breakdown was his inner conflicts and worlds colliding. Now, to fix it… Ennis still needs the catalyst. This could have been provided by Jack quitting Ennis. Unfortunately, it was provided by Cassie, and too late, unbeknownst to Ennis, sitting all alone in a bus depot eating his pie whilst Jack lie dead, broken in two.
--- Quote ---I'm also open to the possibility that this is right.
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Well, of course, you are. You’ve always had a knack for recognizing quality. :laugh:
Finally, I saw this post of yours AFTER I posted my latest little essay… “Why Jack Quit Ennis” in the “Open Forum.” Maybe we should continue this over there?
Also, look for another new essay… “Alma Jr., Her Box of Crayons, and the Tattooed Lady” in finer “Open Forum(s)” near you.
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 12, 2006, 04:15:41 am ---I'll let Ruthlessly respond to your comments, of course,
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Thanks! Your comments are ALWAYS welcome. Now I'll add a comment...
--- Quote ---That's what I hear him say. That he wants to fix it, I mean. What I think we are supposed to hear, even - the parallell to his previous "stand it" line being intentional IMO. Or at least, I want him to come away with the dawning realization that he wants to fix it.
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Again, as I said in my reply to latjoreme, I have no problem with this except for one little thing that popped into my head after I replied above -- if Ennis meant he wanted to fix it, did he communicate that to Jack? Did Jack understand Ennis' comments this way? Look at Jack’s expression as Ennis drives away. I find that informative.
Penthesilea:
I don't think Jack would have quit Ennis (more on this later in this post). But:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 12, 2006, 04:48:20 am ---Look at Jack’s expression as Ennis drives away. I find that informative.
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This is what hit me the most and brings doubts to my mind regarding the question whether Jack would have quit Ennis or not. I can disregard Randall, disregard Jack mentions him to his parents, forget all attepemts for logical interpretations of Jack's and Ennis's state of minds - but I can't forget *that* expression on Jack's face.
It's so sad, forlorn, desperate - but also somehow determined.
But determined for what? To quit Ennis? Or "only" to contemplate (no descicion yet made) about Randall as a serious alternative to live with? Or to put more pressure on Ennis (kind of ultimatum)? Or determined to not stay in this situation for good, but still for some time longer (maybe until Ennis finished his financal duties of child support)?
I can't picture Jack coming in November just to call it quits. Or to force Ennis into an instant descicion. He heard Ennis saying that he can't stand this anymore. And after 20 years I think Jack would not have stopped it with at least one last attempt to fix it.
At the time of their argument, Junior was almost 18 and Jenny would have been 18 about year (+/-) later.
I can imagine Jack talking to Ennis very, very serious and at last open and honest in November. To lay all cards open on the table. If he would be losing Ennis anyway, it would not make sense to hold back anymore. No more need for Jack to fear his words might scare Ennis off.
I'm not finished yet, but I gotta go now, I'm already late. RL can somtimes be hard ;).
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: Penthesilea on July 12, 2006, 08:39:59 am ---...but I can't forget *that* expression on Jack's face. It's so sad, forlorn, desperate - but also somehow determined. But determined for what? To quit Ennis? Or "only" to contemplate (no descicion yet made) about Randall as a serious alternative to live with? Or to put more pressure on Ennis (kind of ultimatum)? Or determined to not stay in this situation for good, but still for some time longer (maybe until Ennis finished his financal duties of child support)?
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Probably a little or a lot of all of what you said. It's like "I swear." So much said with so few words.
--- Quote ---I can't picture Jack coming in November just to call it quits.
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Agreed.
--- Quote ---Or to force Ennis into an instant descicion. He heard Ennis saying that he can't stand this anymore. And after 20 years I think Jack would not have stopped it with at least one last attempt to fix it.
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Agreed. But, as to the instant decision, I've always wondered what conversation took place after the breakdown and before Ennis drove off. Did Jack say "Look Ennis, this whole thing is outta control for both of us. But you're the one who's gotta make a decision. Take some time and think about it. Let me know." And then Ennis drives off and Jack has that look on face. Could be. BUT, we weren't told (or shown) what happened in those few minutes. And it really ended up not mattering... for them at least.
--- Quote ---I can imagine Jack talking to Ennis very, very serious and at last open and honest in November. To lay all cards open on the table. If he would be losing Ennis anyway, it would not make sense to hold back anymore. No more need for Jack to fear his words might scare Ennis off.
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Agreed. No doubt.
Penthesilea:
--- Quote from: ruthlesslyunsentimental on July 11, 2006, 04:32:55 pm ---Gosh darn it! Of all the scenes I wish were filled in, it's right after Ennis' breakdown that's most important to me. Jack fuckin' Twist! He sure picked a lousy time to go into a flashback....
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I completely agree on this one. There are many blanks I wish they would have filled out, but this is the worst one.
--- Quote ---I know the short story says nothing resolved, blah blah, but in the film, I'm not so sure what took place between Ennis' breakdown and his driving off. The look on Jack's face tells me that Ennis did not come around at that time. And Jack's telling his folks about the other guy makes me think Jack knew Ennis would never come around. Because even if Jack told Ennis that he had until November to figure this all out, Jack still told his parents about the other guy.
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I think the postcard Ennis wrote is movie's equivalent to the story's "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved". I'm with Amanda on this:
--- Quote ---I don't think Jack explicitly quit on Ennis. We may worry about what's going on in his head on this topic, but he clearly didn't say this or really indicate this to Ennis. I don't think Ennis would have written the November postcard if he believed Jack had quit him... or if Jack actually said he wanted to break up. If, following the argument scene - culminating in a hypothetical break up - Ennis still truly wanted Jack back (after the Cassie conversation) he would have had to do something much more dramatic than send a very simple postcard saying "how about Pine Creek in November?" (or whatever it actually says). He might have found himself having to fight a little harder to get him back. think the casualness of the postcard shows that he's expecting that things really are torqued back to the status quo (at least in terms of their regular camping dates
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I think what we do not see is similar to what the story descibes. I don't think Jack had put any kind of ultimatum to Ennis (yet). Last thing we see/hear is Jack consoling and reassuring Ennis, saying "Come here...it's all right. It's all right ... damn you, Ennis." (It's all right, it's all right: same as in TS2).
The screenplay gives us another hint in this direction: it cites the story to describe the scene : "...managing to torque things almost to where they had been, for what they've said is no news: as always, nothing ended, ...."
The fact Jack mentiones Randall to his parents proves us he thought about moving on shortly after their argument. In a state of mind still angry and freshly hurt. But how serious he was about this "other fella" bringing with him, we'll never know for sure. I think he wasn't very serious about it, because we know Jack had told his parents for years about Ennis Del Mar, and he sure was serious about being together with Ennis. But however he seems not to have spoken with Ennis about concrete plans regarding Lightning Flat.
And like others have already said, I see development in Ennis: dumping Cassie, the pie scene, his lokk after Cassie mentions the word love, the fact that he admits he can't stand it any more. Plus he was terrified and shaken to the core by the cognition that there's a possibility of losing Jack. He had a lot of things to think after their last trip. He was almost there, almost finished his travelling around the coffeepot, almost found the handle.
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