Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
Jack's questionnaire
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
Couple of comments I'd like to throw into the middle here...
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 09:57:45 am ---Wow! This is a whopper of a post!
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Sure enough.
Mikaela -- you said --
--- Quote ---Ruthlessly, I agree Mrs. Twist knew Ennis was coming, I think she was testing Ennis and his love for Jack, - and that's why she let the shirts remain hidden. It's like "If this man truly loved my son, if his love was strong enough, he will find the shirts where Jack hid them. Some higher being, or providence, or Jack's presence.... will lead him to the shirts - it will be a confirmation that he was worthy of Jack's love." With the "spooky" and/or spiritual setting of the Twist ranch, - the white-washed kitchen, the prominent cross, the crow sounding as the window is being opened etc, I don't think this is far-fetched at all. She even gives him a benediction before he goes up, willing him to pass her test and prove his love - with her hand on his shoulder. The confirmation that she *is* testing Ennis to me is the way Mrs. Twist is standing when Ennis comes back down: Clutching her cup, on pins and needles. She's very anxious to learn whether or not he's found the shirts - that is; whether he truly did love Jack and deserved Jack's love in return. And then there's relief and immediate understanding flooding her face once she sees that he *has* found them.
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Generally, I like this. While reading it the first time, I thought that, yes, in a spiritual, symbolic, subtextual sense we, the viewers, can see this as what's happened... but not that Mrs. Twist actually had it in her mind to put Ennis to the test. But then, I agree that her standing, clutching her cup gives good support for the idea of testing Ennis. You have made a very strong point of a classical allusion here, but I still can't quite get over the "what she knew," "what she did," "what she expected" mess. As far as something that we can see as symbolism -- Ennis put to the test -- I think it's great. But the actual participation of the Mrs. Twist character on the textual level... how many mothers would rely on the intervention of the fates as opposed to just laying the shirts on the bed for him to find? If they're significant, he'll pick them up.
Also, you said --
--- Quote ---Mikaela -- I think November would have been the final make or break. If Ennis had actually come around and was willing to give life with Jack a go, Jack would still have been there. If Ennis had anything less to offer, Jack would have told him a final goodbye (being the hardest thing Jack had ever done in his life .......but I think he *would* have done it, for Ennis, because he knew now that the way they'd been going about their relationship was killing Ennis, not only himself.) The fact that he talked to his parents about bringing (presumably) Randall up to Lightning Flat when he went there directly after the last meeting with Ennis, shows that Jack had next to no hope that Ennis would manage to change. **Sniff**
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and
--- Quote ---Mikaela -- Yes, he could have stopped seeing him. No, he could never have stopped longing for him.
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Wow was I surprised. Not that this came from you, in particular; rather, that it came from anyone. You can't know the flack I've taken over my admittedly very strong, no middle-ground, stance on this question. It all goes to how the word "quit" is defined. I've always felt that to define "quit" as "stop loving" is way too simplistic. Given all they've been through in that scene, given the juxtaposition of Jack’s use of the word "quit" against Ennis' use (it's a hell of a lot easier to quit a job than to "quit" a person), given the fact that everyone seems to agree that their love was a once-in-a-lifetime, metaphysically forever, kind of love, then "quit" must carry more baggage with it than a simple "stop loving."
Dly64 asked me my thoughts on this a while ago in another post and I was 1) too afraid to answer and 2) not prepared even if I could have gotten past my bear. Here is my basic response, though I've given serious consideration to opening the floodgates and starting a thread on this as my opinion seems to be differently premised than most seem to assume. Does anyone want me to start it?
Anyway, it was very gratifying to see someone say something that gave some credence to what I said. Thanks. You've melted away years of tears and fears. (OK, that's over the top...)
serious crayons:
Um, Mikaela ... whatever happened to one or two sentences? :laugh: That's OK. Your answers are interesting, so feel free to blithely flout the ground rules that we (ahem) discussed yesterday ... ;) (This applies to Ruthlessly too, though I don't know that Ruthlessly participated in or saw that discussion.)
Anyway ... now that seven people have answered, want to discuss specific answers (or at least give the terse answerers an opportunity to respond copiously)? There are some really good questions regarding Jack's attitudes and intentions at the end of the movie. Here's one I find particularly interesting and apparently controversial:
--- Quote -----Would November have been the true test of their relationship? How much longer would Jack hold on to hope that things would move forward with Ennis?
Diane – Honestly, I think it would have continued. Even had Jack shacked up with Randall, IMO, he would have continued his fishing trips. I don’t think he could have “quit” Ennis, despite how much he may have wanted to.
Jane - I don’t have my answer to this yet. It is still percolating.
Amanda- I think November would have been critical. I think Jack would have arrived anxious to find out if things had progressed at all with Ennis and would have arrived with even sadder eyes. Cry But, I think Jack would have been pleasantly surprised in November by some little changes that we see in Ennis. First of all... isn't the returned postcard the first one that we see written/ initiated by Ennis? Other than the "you bet" reply? I'm sure Ennis has written other postcards over the years... but this is the first that we see... this, and the break up with Cassie, his obvious fear at losing Jack, etc. all might have led to a pleasant surprise for Jack.
Mark-no matter what Jack would not have given up on Ennis. Actually I think Ennis mostly sent the first postcard for each trip, letting Jack know the days he could be off work.
Katherine -- I don't think Ennis' postcards were unusual, but I do think he was planning to make some changes.
Ruthlessly – After the final lake scene there is no doubt that Jack resolved to end his relationship with Ennis. He had to. He loved Ennis that much. He just saw his lover crumple into nothingness all due to his inability to deal with all of his complex inner struggles. Jack loved Ennis so much that he had to let him go. Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.” If Jack did not “quit” Ennis – I do NOT mean quit loving Ennis, I mean let Ennis go for Ennis’ well-being – then he never had any love at all for Ennis. Jack said he wished that he knew how to quit Ennis – and he said this selfishly, for Jack. In the film’s greatest irony, Ennis showed Jack just how to do that – and it was done unselfishly, for Ennis.
Mikaela -- I think November would have been the final make or break. If Ennis had actually come around and was willing to give life with Jack a go, Jack would still have been there. If Ennis had anything less to offer, Jack would have told him a final goodbye (being the hardest thing Jack had ever done in his life .......but I think he *would* have done it, for Ennis, because he knew now that the way they'd been going about their relationship was killing Ennis, not only himself.) The fact that he talked to his parents about bringing (presumably) Randall up to Lightning Flat when he went there directly after the last meeting with Ennis, shows that Jack had next to no hope that Ennis would manage to change. **Sniff**
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As a romantic optimist, I've always wanted to agree with Mark and Diane -- that they would have stayed together forever. It's very hard for me to face the idea of them breaking up.
But I'll have to grudgingly admit that lately I'm edging more toward the Mikaela and Ruthlessly side. Amanda, I notice you very slightly skirted the issue of what Jack would have done if there were no changes in November. Like you, I pin my hopes on the thought that Ennis' reaction to the argument and breakup with Cassie -- coupled with his reaction to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" -- signal his intention to change the course in some way. And I at least think Jack would have shown up in November -- even if intending to break up, would have done so in person (surely he wouldn't just string Ennis along as Ennis goes through summer anticipating that rendezvous). So I cling to the straw that they would meet in November, Jack ready to break up but finds Ennis a changed man, and yay, they live happily ever after! Course, the problem is they didn't.
Romantic optimist or not, I laughed out loud (more than once!) at Ruthlessly's
--- Quote ---Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.”
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But not only is it funny, I'm afraid it does make sense.
ruthlesslyunsentimental:
--- Quote from: latjoreme on July 11, 2006, 03:49:49 pm ---... whatever happened to one or two sentences? ... This applies to Ruthlessly too, though I don't know that Ruthlessly participated in or saw that discussion.
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OK. Sorry. I guess I'll have to go to my room tonight without any supper... But that's OK. I keep a case of beans under my bed just in case. And, I am pretty good with a can opener. Unfortunately, it's usually a can of worms I open up.
Thanks for what you wrote about the "quit" question. I know it can get very heated. Been there, done that.
--- Quote ---But I'll have to grudgingly admit that lately I'm edging more toward the Mikaela and Ruthlessly side. Amanda, I notice you very slightly skirted the issue of what Jack would have done if there were no changes in November. Like you, I pin my hopes on the thought that Ennis' reaction to the argument and breakup with Cassie -- coupled with his reaction to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" -- signal his intention to change the course in some way. And I at least think Jack would have shown up in November -- even if intending to break up, would have done so in person (surely he wouldn't just string Ennis along as Ennis goes through summer anticipating that rendezvous). So I cling to the straw that they would meet in November, Jack ready to break up but finds Ennis a changed man, and yay, they live happily ever after! Course, the problem is they didn't.
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Yes. I've always left room for the possibility of November (see my answer above to the question immediately after the one we're discussing here). But November would have been crucial. It seems Jack already made his decision (telling his parents about the other guy) to free Ennis from his miseries. Certainly Jack would not have just stopped all communication with Ennis and left him wondering. He would have kept the November date at Pine Creek but all the truths and lies would have had to have come out and Jack would have had to have spelled it all out and forced Ennis to make a choice. Again, to continue with Ennis in such a state would have been cruel. I know the short story says nothing resolved, blah blah, but in the film, I'm not so sure what took place between Ennis' breakdown and his driving off. The look on Jack's face tells me that Ennis did not come around at that time. And Jack's telling his folks about the other guy makes me think Jack knew Ennis would never come around. Because even if Jack told Ennis that he had until November to figure this all out, Jack still told his parents about the other guy. Gosh darn it! Of all the scenes I wish were filled in, it's right after Ennis' breakdown that's most important to me. Jack fuckin' Twist! He sure picked a lousy time to go into a flashback....
--- Quote ---Romantic optimist or not, I laughed out loud (more than once!) at Ruthlessly's
Otherwise, we have Jack saying “I just saw my man crumple up in a heap of utter despair – oh, well, at least he’s still good for a couple of high-altitude fucks every year.”
But not only is it funny, I'm afraid it does make sense.
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It is sad. But I really believe these were Jack's only realistic options... set Ennis free or keep him captive.
Anyway, since you liked that bit of humor, and to end this post with a bit more humor...
I was debating something with someone once and we were debating just how important specific words were in specific points in the film. The other person felt we could interchange a lot of things. In arguing my point, I said, "Well, what if instead of (x) so and so would have said (y)..." And then I gave some examples. One of the examples I gave caused the other person to spit Coke all over his or her computer screen in laughter.
I said, "What if Ennis would have changed "Jack, I swear..." to "Jack, what the hell was I thinking?""
Worth a chuckle, huh?
Mikaela:
--- Quote ---He sure picked a lousy time to go into a flashback...
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Then again, WHAT a flashback! :-*
--- Quote ---Um, Mikaela ... whatever happened to one or two sentences? That's OK. Your answers are interesting, so feel free to blithely flout the ground rules that we (ahem) discussed yesterday ...
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I'm sorry. I misunderstood the discussion yesterday - I didn't feel we reached a concensus and therefore looked to see whether any "gound rules" had been included in the new questionnaire without finding them - so I figured they'd been put on hold. Tell you what, I actually intended to abide by them anyway, but halfway through I couldn't keep to my own rule, even. ::blush:: I'll be a good girl from now on. Promise. :)
--- Quote ---I pin my hopes on the thought that Ennis' reaction to the argument and breakup with Cassie -- coupled with his reaction to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun" -- signal his intention to change the course in some way. And I at least think Jack would have shown up in November -- even if intending to break up, would have done so in person (surely he wouldn't just string Ennis along as Ennis goes through summer anticipating that rendezvous).
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Yes, Jack surely would have been there in November. No question in my mind about that. And what would have happend then is ......well, it's enough to drive me crazy that we'll never know. I've said what I think Jack would have done (as quoted above) - or at least what I beleive he would have *tried* to do: Quit Ennis, if Ennis hadn't changed. So, some sort of ultimatum. (Though I don't think Jack could *ever* quit the longing and wanting). But I'm more uncertain what Ennis would have done. He *has* changed after the lakeside scene, to me the Cassie scene shows that very clearly. He seems to have reached a point where pretending to be straight just isn't worth any sort of effort any more, but he doesn't look like a guy with a purpose....... in both the Cassie scene and at the beginning of the scene where he collects the mail he looks like someone defeated and cowed by life, almost. :'( So I'm very uncertain.
Also, it would have been such a horribly cruel irony if he'd actually decided to meet Jack in November to tell him "let's stay together" before he got the postcard - so I find it painful to wish for that, too - within the context of the film.
Aaargh. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
But if Jack had lived, oh well - I want to think that Ennis would have gone for it at last, homophobia be damned. He did have the strength to do it, to overcome all that self-loathing and fear and doubt at long last. I'm sure of that. **sniff**
Brown Eyes:
--- Quote from: Mikaela on July 11, 2006, 09:57:45 am ---Wow! This is a whopper of a post!
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I thought this questionnaire had better start out with some weight after the models set by the other 3 questionnaire threads. ALL of these have turned into marathon typing / reading endeavors.
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