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Christian Domestic Discipline
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 26, 2014, 12:34:00 pm ---Hmm. What's that saying about the person who brings the Nazis into an argument? ;D
--- End quote ---
First of all, let's clarify that I did not bring Nazis into this argument. Jonah Goldberg did -- the point of his book that I linked to was that liberals are like Nazis because of some unrelated nonsense or other. I was pointing out that his book was ridiculous, so I hardly think that constitutes an example of argument violation via Godwin's Rule. I myself did not compare you or anyone to a Nazi.
--- Quote ---There was nothing "flawed" about my suspicions about writers who urge white people to have more children three years ago, and there is nothing flawed about it now.
--- End quote ---
When an argument is based on a sentence like this ...
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on September 23, 2011, 06:39:54 pm ---While, unfortunately, I can't cite anything, I'm sure I've read about writers in the past--and maybe not so far in the past--writing openly that the white race needed to breed more to keep from being overwhelmed by the black, brown, and yellow "races." There is historical precedent for what I'm "hearing" as I read about these books.
--- End quote ---
... I'd say it's pretty darned flawed. You can't site anything. You're sure you've read about such writers "in the past." Well, of course all kinds of writers wrote all kinds of things in the past, and I'm sure some writers did just what you vaguely recall hearing they did.
But writers in the 21st century can hardly be tarred with the same brush you would use on writers whom you vaguely remember from the (very) distant past (and yes, that would be very distant -- like, probably about 100 years ago if you're talking about mainstream writers openly encouraging the "white race" to breed more; that's been uncool since long before the Civil Rights movement).
A German Catholic clergyman wrote The Malleus Maleficarum ("Hammer of the Witches") in 1486. It was a hugely influential book in the European witch persecutions, which led to up to 60,000 executions. I would say it's unfair in 2014 to hold German Catholic clergymen responsible for that.
(Wonder what law covers bringing European witch persecutions into an argument? ;D )
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on August 26, 2014, 10:17:22 pm ---But writers in the 21st century can hardly be tarred with the same brush you would use on writers whom you vaguely remember from the (very) distant past (and yes, that would be very distant -- like, probably about 100 years ago if you're talking about mainstream writers openly encouraging the "white race" to breed more; that's been uncool since long before the Civil Rights movement).
--- End quote ---
No, it would be no further back than the Nineties of the last century, if that far, and I also doubt the very contemporary "Full Quiver" people are urging people who are not white to have lots more chldren.
I've been thinking, too, that tribalism does not apply here. The Amish and the Mormons are "tribal." An argument that encourages people of one race to breed more children, while ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races, is inherently racist in my book. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 27, 2014, 09:03:47 am ---No, it would be no further back than the Nineties of the last century, if that far,
--- End quote ---
So let me make sure I understand. You're saying you have heard of writers in the 1990s or later writing actual books published by legitimate publishers -- as opposed to some tract they printed off in their basement and passed around at their neo-Nazi gatherings -- that openly urged white people to have more babies to combat the rising population of non-white babies.
Well, I guess I'd have to see titles. Or names of authors. Or reviews. Or something. Otherwise, frankly, I'm skeptical.
--- Quote ---and I also doubt the very contemporary "Full Quiver" people are urging people who are not white to have lots more chldren.
--- End quote ---
Me, I like to wait until I hear someone say something racist before I accuse them of racism. Just because someone has one characteristic I dislike doesn't mean they have all the characteristics I dislike.
I don't claim to be an expert on the Full Quiver philosophy, but as far as I know it doesn't have anything to do with the overall population's racial balance. And -- they're conservative Christians, right? -- many conservative Christians are non-racist.
--- Quote ---I've been thinking, too, that tribalism does not apply here. The Amish and the Mormons are "tribal." An argument that encourages people of one race to breed more children, while ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races, is inherently racist in my book. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
--- End quote ---
Stick with whatever you like. :) Personally, I like to base my beliefs on actual evidence. Vaguely imagining that that a person is "ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races" just because they don't explicitly mention race at all does not count as evidence in my book.
I don't usually explicitly mention race when I'm writing about something that has nothing to do with race, but that doesn't mean I'm directing my words only at white people.
serious crayons:
OK, possible partial mea culpa -- I just googled "white people more babies" and found this right away:
http://newobserveronline.com/if-white-americans-dont-start-having-babies-now-the-us-will-vanish-by-2100/
--- Quote ---If White Americans Don’t Start Having Babies Now, the US Will Vanish by 2100
... “We’re jumping the gun on a long, slow decline of our white population, which is going to characterize this century,” William Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution, was quoted as saying.
... The figures show clearly once again that unless white Americans get serious about increasing their birthrate—and having more children immediately—then it is certain that the America of 1776 will no longer exist by 2100.[/b]
--- End quote ---
It's the "the US Will Vanish," of course, that makes it racist. As if the US would not exist as an entity if it weren't majority white. That's not a book, but it looks like a pretty established, well-financed, professionally produced site. And of course there are plenty of other far more sleazy-looking sites where people express similar sentiments.
There are also a few stories from liberal sites accusing conservative commentators on Fox News or wherever of saying racist things about birthrates.
So I guess it's not entirely far-fetched that some conservative book might mention this issue in a racist way. Though I'm still skeptical about the existence of a whole book entirely on that topic. You'd think it would have raised more of a fuss. If stray stupid comments by Paula Dean or a football-team owner could rule the news cycle for a week or more ...
Meanwhile, there are other neutral sites and stories reporting projected demographic shifts in the population due to declining birthrates among white people. And a few conservatives in mainstream publications (e.g., Ross Douthat in the NYT) expressing alarm about declining birthrates overall and urging people in general to produce more babies -- for the sake of the economy, not the racial balance. I don't count either of those as racist.
milomorris:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on August 27, 2014, 09:03:47 am ---I've been thinking, too, that tribalism does not apply here. The Amish and the Mormons are "tribal." An argument that encourages people of one race to breed more children, while ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races, is inherently racist in my book. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
--- End quote ---
Using that logic, the NAACP is racist because it encourages blacks to get college educations while ignoring people of other races.
Encouraging people of one's own race is not a de facto discouragement of people of other races.
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