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Christian Domestic Discipline
milomorris:
--- Quote from: shakesthecoffeecan on September 17, 2011, 11:14:38 am ---Religion, another way to control people......
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Religion can also be another path to enlightenment and self-discovery. It depends how one uses it.
milomorris:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on September 17, 2011, 12:21:32 am ---It also entails Bachman lying about being submissive to her husband. If she was following the bible teachings as she claims, she'd also have her head covered while speaking in public and be silent in church and her husband should be either with her at all times, or be discouraging her to speak in public.
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You seem to have Christians and Jews mixed up. It doesn't seem as though you understand how modern Christians contextualize the Old Testament. Even still, the Old Testament does contain Ruth, Esther, Merriam, etc.
Post some scriptures, and maybe I can help.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: milomorris on September 17, 2011, 12:50:58 pm ---It also entails Bachman lying about being submissive to her husband. If she was following the bible teachings as she claims, she'd also have her head covered while speaking in public and be silent in church and her husband should be either with her at all times, or be discouraging her to speak in public.
You seem to have Christians and Jews mixed up. It doesn't seem as though you understand how modern Christians contextualize the Old Testament. Even still, the Old Testament does contain Ruth, Esther, Merriam, etc.
Post some scriptures, and maybe I can help.
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Oh, no, I'm definitely not confused. See below - note: all of these are from the New Testament
1 Corinthians 11:3-16
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Ephesians 5:22-24
Colossians 3:18-19
1 Timothy 2:11-15
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: milomorris on September 17, 2011, 10:07:28 am ---Fair enough. It certainly could turn abusive.
But that's my point. They do think its right, and so do their wives. This isn't about the husband's anger, or the wife's self-worth. This is about both husband and wife following the prescribed "biblical" roles in marriage. Remember, as Katherine pointed out a few posts back, most of these people don't grow up in these traditions, they adopt them after they are born-again as adults. They are trained to understand that husbands and wives have some very specific duties and roles. So from their POV behaving this way fulfills part of those duties, and that this is the right way to manage a marriage.
You have to understand that we're talking about a different set of moral codes than in the secular world.
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Except that they're wrong, Milo. Yes, there can be definitive statements still made in this gray world. Women are human beings just as men are. If men can benefit from freedom and fulfilling their own desires and being leaders - and they do - why wouldn't women similarly benefit? So any philosophy that stifles the ability of women to do these things, that keeps them from fulfilling themselves as human beings is not 'right' in any way.
delalluvia:
--- Quote from: serious crayons on September 17, 2011, 02:14:32 am ---Well, I'm more of a believer in nature than nurture. But let's say it's all about upbringing. Even so, by your description is valid but not specific to the Christian community. That was my point.
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I saw your point, but I disagree completely. It's quite valid and can be specific to the Christian community, IMO.
--- Quote ---What I'm saying is that I think families that teach that the man is "the leader, the shepherd" etc. -- in other words, families who advocate that the woman should be totally subordinate and submissive to the man -- are in 2011 very few and far between. Again, I'm sure they exist out there, but they are not mainstream, so to speak, conservative Christians. Don't believe me? Let's take a look.
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I don't have to. I have examples in my life. My college friend and yet another college friend? And I currently have two fundamentalist, college-educated, right wing friends. And a Mormon friend. They completely believe this. Based on the numbers of my friends, that's about 35% of the people I know. Look on TV. The Duggars?
--- Quote ---Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Michele Bachmann, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh don't say that.
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These are people whose honesty I don't trust. They're either opinion talk show celebrities or editorialists who might say or write anything for ratings and sales or politicians who might do the same to win voters.
--- Quote --- I've never heard Pat Robertson and his ilk say that.
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"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - 1992 Iowa fundraising letter opposing a state equal-rights amendment ("Equal Rights Initiative in Iowa Attacked", Washington Post, 23 August 1992)[/b]
--- Quote ---Are there some backwoods, backwards, old-school Christians who still teach their daughters that sort of thing? No doubt. Heck, I've met backwoods types who's families have been in the United States since the 18th century yet they don't speak English (only French). My point is that people like that are rare outliers, not what you'd expect from some average conservative Christian family.
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They don't have to be backwoods, crayons, just small town. Another college friend was from a small town in Texas. She didn't meet a single black person until she was a teenager. She has since moved back to that small town, married a small town husband, and lives across the street from her parents, brothers and sisters and their families in the same small town.
--- Quote ---The stats are definitely under-reported, although in this day and age it's less because the woman doesn't think the husband is doing anything wrong -- women who think like that are extremely are -- as that she feels helpless, scared and/or loves him and is trying to protect him.
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I'm really thinking it's where you live and the culture around you, crayons. I see this all the time - from old married women who didn't dare leave their husbands no matter how abusive he was because women don't divorce a husband - so say old school Catholics - to women who are so desperate to have a man, that they'll put up with anything.
--- Quote ---Masses of people don't usually "give lip service" to some candidate and then vote otherwise. Except when it comes to black candidates, in which case there's an actual phenomenon called the Wilder Effect (after Gov. Douglas Wilder of Virginia) about people telling pollsters they're likely to vote for a black candidate but then not actually doing it. You could argue that Bachmann, Palin, etc., would be the subjects of their own personal Wilder effect. But I disagree, and unless we have numbers we won't resolve that easily.
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Oh, I think they do. And quite often.
--- Quote ---I've read it. It was published in 1985, and very topical in respect to the Iranian revolutio -- that is, with only slight exaggeration, what happened to Iranian women. As for North America, it wasn't, and isn't, as good a fit. It's dystopian, for sure, but we were nowhere close to that sort of society 26 years ago and we're much further away from it today.
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I'm sure the women of Iran thought so, too.
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