The World Beyond BetterMost > The Culture Tent
Liberace "Behind the Candelabra"
x-man:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on March 11, 2014, 01:30:28 pm ---Maybe so, but I'm sure your experience is also far from unique.
--- End quote ---
I did not add my posting above just to tell a personal story. I wanted to cast a light on the elephant in the room--the whole question of romantic and sexual relationships between either boys or younger men and older men. Society, at least western society, has been very quick to assume that the relationship is by definition wrong, pathological, should be ended, and the evildoer is always the older man. The situation in Behind the Candelabra exemplified this question.
I suggested that I did not believe such relationships were inherently wrong, or should be ended before their time, or that the older man was always the initiator and taking advantage of the younger. In my own case, I wasn't really a gay "Lolita," but I did know enough from my own experience that this way of looking at the matter was inaccurate and simplistic. The nearly universal condemnation of Liberace and the also nearly universal sympathy for Thorson and the others just serve to highlight the point I am making.
I knew when I wrote that I was not alone, but I did not want to speak for other gay men--I have been criticized for doing this. I was pleased to hear from JW that my experience might not be unique after all. Another posting hinted that Liberace's interest in younger man was a "flaw." Well his taste in men certainly WAS flawed, but that they were 17 to early 20's does not seem to me necessarily flawed. But hey, Liberace, if you want men that age you are likely to run into twinks--it's part of the package. I don't think I was ever a twink; I don't know; but I sure met a lot of them.
In my middle teens I was looking for sex and connection. I got the sex, and have no regrets, but I was not to find connection (and what a connection it was!) until I was 18. He was 4 years older than I was, older and definitely a mentor, but we were friends and lovers, not parent and child.
Whether relationships with a wide divergence in age are destined to last is another question. Some undoubtedly will, but I wonder if most won't end, as each man moves on. I am reminded of Full Frontal's song, "You Think You're A Man." The chorus has the lines which may sum up my idea:
"You think you're a man,
but you're only a boy.
You think you're a man,
you're only a toy.
But you just couldn't see
you weren't man enough to satisfy me."
Those last 2 lines could be sung by either of the two men in the relationship.
I'd like to hear from you on this, guys. This is our territory; we have seen it closer than most.
:)
milomorris:
--- Quote from: x-man on March 12, 2014, 04:53:01 pm ---Another posting hinted that Liberace's interest in younger man was a "flaw."
--- End quote ---
My post hinted at no such thing. I don't see an age difference as a problem in a relationship unless one of the parties is a minor.
BradInBlue:
In most states, sex between a 14 year old and an adult is a felony. Don't matter who initiates it.
There is no evidence or inference that Scott Thorson was under 18.
Liberace was a very talented pianist and a flaming queen who bought young men. Lots of old and talented men buy young females.
Brad
x-man:
--- Quote from: BradInBlue on March 12, 2014, 08:16:24 pm ---In most states, sex between a 14 year old and an adult is a felony. Don't matter who initiates it.
Brad
--- End quote ---
I don't understand your point.
In 1952, if the cops caught a 30-year-old man fucking a 14-year-old boy, do you seriously think I would have been charged, no matter what the man said? No way. I could have pleaded with them that he was telling the truth, and it wouldn't have made any difference. That was kind of my point.
Gay sex, no matter what the ages of the men, was illegal in Canada until 1969, then legalized for 21 and over. Now, of course, it is the same as for straight sex--16 for everyone, and for 14-15-year-olds if the difference between the ages is 5 years or less, and for 12-13-year-olds the window is a 2 year difference. I didn't ask, and nobody told me. It wouldn't have made a bit of difference in my behaviour anyway. I was trying to say that I selfishly put men in jeopardy. Thankfully I never got caught. I hate to think of how I would live with the knowledge that I had been responsible for someone going to jail for years.
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote from: x-man on March 12, 2014, 11:23:10 pm ---I don't understand your point.
In 1952, if the cops caught a 30-year-old man fucking a 14-year-old boy, do you seriously think I would have been charged, no matter what the man said? No way. I could have pleaded with them that he was telling the truth, and it wouldn't have made any difference. That was kind of my point.
--- End quote ---
I believe I get the point. He wasn't suggesting you would have been charged instead of the adult. Of course the adult would be charged with a felony, regardless of whether he initiated the encounter or whether the 14-year-old initiated it. If one partner is under age, no matter who initiated the encounter, or whether or not it was consensual, it's statutory rape committed by the participant who is of legal age on the participant who is not.
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