X-MAN AGAINST GAY TELEVISION

[Jeff Wrangler]

Why you think this development would disappear at some later point is mystifying to me.

There are already shows with gay couples and they seem well-received. The more it happens, the more it will be no big deal so yes, I suppose at that point, writers will be less likely to include gay couples to be trendy; they'll do it to reflect real life.

Once gay marriage is no longer newsworthy, the couples will disappear from scripted TV shows--unless an important point of the show is that the couple is gay, like the one about the blended family headed by two lesbians.

[CellarDweller]

But I'm not so sure about the first part. I probably wasn't clear enough, because sometimes I do tend to parse things awfully fine. My stomach gets queasy over, er, "gentlemen of a certain age," shall we say, propositioning guys who are young enough to be their sons--or maybe even grandsons--and if the "gentlemen" offer to pay for it--ain't even gonna go there. But I suppose if the young guy makes the advance, and they're both being clear-headed about what's going on, I don't see anything categorically wrong about it.

And neither do I as long as the age of consent boundary is respected. The validity of age of consent is being argued right now over in the Men's Health thread.

I agree with Milo and Jeff.

In fact, I bowl on a team of four (three regulars, one alternate) and one of our regulars is in a monogamous relationship with our alternate, there is a 30 year difference between them, if not more.

[milomorris]

To see this as something negative seems, to me, sort of beside the point. Our lives are awash in corporations doing things they think will help their bottom line, so if that's disturbing to you you've got your work cut out for you.

Its not the fact that companies are making money off the gay market segment, its the sentiment that such companies are perceived as being gay-friendly. They're not being friendly at all, they're just out to make a buck.

[x-man]

Wow.  That could be taken as quite the insult.  And would you do the same to those "straight person, even the most gay-friendly"?  Push the button and make us disappear, thinking you would be doing the gay world a favor?

2 points here:

1) I did not mean to insult.  This is a situation where I was just saying that a situation exists, not that I think it is a good idea.  All through my postings here and elsewhere is the subtext that a man carries with him a lot of baggage from earlier days in spite of all attempts to rid himself of it--not unlike the baggage that Innis carried around that was so devastating to his relationship with Jack.  This is one of the consequences of homophobia and internalized homophobia that older gay men are heir to.  As I keep saying, you younger guys are so very lucky.  But you shouldn't forget what did happen.  No one asks Jews to forget about the Holocaust--instead they have institutions to keep the memory alive so that it won't happen again.  We should too.

2)  Well, again, as you did when you caught on to the fact that I had not apologized much as I was trying to claim about the "2 kinds of straight people' comment, you caught me out again.  I actually had not considered or entertained pushing a button and making the whole straight world disappear leaving only a gay one.  But this time I will not try to wiggle out of it.  I'm going to take the Fifth Amendment on this one--at least for the present.  My remarks about consciously having tried to live out my life in an as all-male environment as possible might give you a clue--but I'm still working on it   Anyway, good for you for pointing that out

[x-man]

That could very well be, but with the number of memorials to the holocaust that now include pink triangles, I hope some of them get the  symbol.

I hope you are right, CD.  But the number of younger gay men I have talked to who have no idea what a pink triangle is all about is extremely depressing.  Serious crayons once pointed out to me that I seemed trapped in the past regarding these issues.  She's right.  But it isn't JUST that I am not seeing the advances made in LGBT issues, it is that I do want to keep the memory alive--even if I do it awkwardly.  Am I flogging a dead horse?  Pissing against the wind?  Or a voice crying in the wilderness?  I am trying to be the last.  I urge other older gay men who know what it was like will also pass it on to the kids.

[milomorris]

I urge other older gay men who know what it was like will also pass it on to the kids.

This is an area of challenge. Unlike an ethnic group, sexual minorities cannot rely on family structure to impart the knowledge of previous generation on present ones. For example, when I was a little boy I had my parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents around to tell me about what it was like to be black in America in their younger days. From what I can tell, the most effective method for sexual minorities to tell these stories is through art, literature, film, etc. because few older homosexuals have the kind of access and rapport with younger ones that I had with, say, my grandfather. And even if using the various arts & humanities as a channel for communicating, there are still challenges because young person has to take the initiative to go and consume the content. The desire to do so is a very individual thing, so you don't have a body of young people with much of a collective knowledge of how things used to be as we do in the African-American population.

[x-man]

Well, thank you for the compliment. Something really nice to read on a truly ugly (weather-wise) Monday morning. Lord knows, I try.

But I'm not so sure about the first part. I probably wasn't clear enough, because sometimes I do tend to parse things awfully fine. My stomach gets queasy over, er, "gentlemen of a certain age," shall we say, propositioning guys who are young enough to be their sons--or maybe even grandsons--and if the "gentlemen" offer to pay for it--ain't even gonna go there. But I suppose if the young guy makes the advance, and they're both being clear-headed about what's going on, I don't see anything categorically wrong about it.

The last time it happened to me--and it really, really did (at least, I think it did   )--a couple of years ago, I didn't allow myself to go there because the "kid" (I use the term loosely--he was in his 20s) was so sweet and cute that I knew I could get myself into real emotional trouble, and it wouldn't last.

Oh, yeah. His father and I work for the same organization. ...

Come on, Jeff!  I compliment you all the time!  

Regarding "the first part" as you put it, my young men/older men topic:  I wrote it because I wanted an alternative viewpoint out there.  I told it by using my own experience szpecifically because of the demand you once made of me not to speak for all gay men or gay men in general but for myself.  You were quite right, and since you said that I try to say I am speaking for myself and I use a personal example to show why I have the opinion I do.  Don't you realize I am very aware of how lucky I was in my behaviour especially in my younger teens>?  I was stupid, but driven by forces I could not control.  When I warned people away from any criticism of me about it, I had a certain unnamed person specifically in mind.

Where I think we DO disagree are in cases where the difference in ages is not that extreme, and both parties are best described as men, not as boy and man.  I believe you were even critical of a relationship I had beginning at age 18 with a man 22.  That love affair was the most fantastic event of my entire life, I was transformed, my life given meaning, he literally saved my life, and gave it whatever meaning it has.  

I am with you on the very young man with much much older men.  I am sure some of such relationships are OK, but I find them kind of creepy too  My own hesitations about hooking up with a very young man are that I am not drawn to men that young, and, more importantly, young men will act completely unaware of the consequences of their actions.  (God knows, I did.).  Like Jennifer Warnes sings, "I know a heartache when I see one."

[x-man]

This is an area of challenge. Unlike an ethnic group, sexual minorities cannot rely on family structure to impart the knowledge of previous generation on present ones. For example, when I was a little boy I had my parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents around to tell me about what it was like to be black in America in their younger days. From what I can tell, the most effective method for sexual minorities to tell these stories is through art, literature, film, etc. because few older homosexuals have the kind of access and rapport with younger ones that I had with, say, my grandfather. And even if using the various arts & humanities as a channel for communicating, there are still challenges because young person has to take the initiative to go and consume the content. The desire to do so is a very individual thing, so you don't have a body of young people with much of a collective knowledge of how things used to be as we do in the African-American population.

For once we agree about something!  You are probably right that most people in the black community have an extended family with lots of older members to keep the memory alive for you.  The LGBT community does not--and suffers from the gap in passing down history because of the death of practically an entire generation thrugh AIDS as Jeff remarked about.  You are right, Milo, the only real way we have to keep memory alive is through literature, media, etc.  Let's hope it works.  With the media in unfriendly hands, I wonder.

[Jeff Wrangler]

The LGBT community ...  suffers from the gap in passing down history because of the death of practically an entire generation thrugh AIDS.

Not only that. "The young" don't necessarily want to hear about it, either.

Just to stick with the AIDS example, to many of them, HIV/AIDS is a manageable chronic condition, like diabetes, not a death sentence like some of us older guys remember it being.

Come on, Jeff!  I compliment you all the time! 

Hey, all I said was it was something nice to read on an ugly Monday morning.

Where I think we DO disagree are in cases where the difference in ages is not that extreme, and both parties are best described as men, not as boy and man.  I believe you were even critical of a relationship I had beginning at age 18 with a man 22.  That love affair was the most fantastic event of my entire life, I was transformed, my life given meaning, he literally saved my life, and gave it whatever meaning it has.

I don't remember this. I'm not denying it, I really don't remember this.  That's not a very big age gap. It doesn't sound to me like me to be critical of a relationship because of the age gap when the age gap is so small. I'm sure I remember the relationship you are referring to--or maybe I have that confused with another relationship, too?    Or maybe there was another issue?

[x-man]

This is a apropos of nothing—just a chance for me to write yet another offensive, disgusting posting.  From an episode of Looking, in a conversation that required some reply like “Is the pope Catholic?”   instead, “Does a bottom howl at the moon?”  You either get it or you don't.