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After watching my DVD a half Dozen times

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Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: jmmgallagher on April 06, 2006, 03:29:08 pm ---rtprod,

Just to keep terminology straight, until now, 'tire iron" has meant hate killing, as in "They took a tire iron to him," and "So now he knew it was the tire iron."

The accidental death version as recounted by Lureen, "The tire blew up, broke his jaw..." is the opposing view.

I am a tire ironist myself--by which I mean I believe it was no accident.





--- End quote ---

John, I'm happy we agree. I've been a tire-ironist since 1997. I always believed Jack was murdered. Once I explained that I felt the structure of the story and and what I called its mythic quality practically demanded that Jack was murdered. Who knows whatever became of that thread?

I expect rt just "miss-typed," that he meant "tire accident."

As for "don't shit where you eat," I think I may even have used those words myself once. Although it almost seems counterintuitive, my feeling has been that Jack was "safer" going to Mexico for hustlers, but when he started "looking for it" closer to home, in Childress, where we know he wasn't much respected to begin with (remember the two old coots in the office who call Jack a pissant right in front of Lureen?), rumors probably started flying, and he ran afoul of the local homophobes.

Gosh, isn't it good to be able to discuss the plot in peace again?

littleguitar:
This might be strange, but I honestly have never chosen one way or the other, and I don't want to choose.  I like that I don't know.  It's enough for me to know that Ennis thinks it was the tire iron, I like to be just as unsure as he is... Does anyone else feel that way?

rtprod:
Jeff,

I'm with everyone here.  Of course we don't know "for certain," but it is very strongly suggested--more than strongly--that it was a fatal gay bashing, and to overlook those images and the homophobic thrust of the time and place, combined with Jack's sense of loss in adult life and th apparent recklessness he adopted, makes no sense, at least to me.  An accident has no weight.  True, it's ultimately about love and loss, and Ennis would feel those things regardless of the circumstace.  But the reality of what likely happens adds many dimensions to Ennis' fears, society, etc.

rt

Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: rtprod on April 06, 2006, 03:51:51 pm ---Jeff,

I'm with everyone here.  Of course we don't know "for certain," but it is very strongly suggested--more than strongly--that it was a fatal gay bashing, and to overlook those images and the homophobic thrust of the time and place, combined with Jack's sense of loss in adult life and th apparent recklessness he adopted, makes no sense, at least to me.  An accident has no weight.  True, it's ultimately about love and loss, and Ennis would feel those things regardless of the circumstace.  But the reality of what likely happens adds many dimensions to Ennis' fears, society, etc.

rt

--- End quote ---

Absolutely, rt! "Hunderd percent!" Right on the money! Although reading littleguitar's post has reminded me of something else I used to say back in the days before the Great Troll Wars: Ultimately, what matters is that Ennis believes it was the tire iron.

Jeff

serious crayons:
I'm with RouxB and littleguitar, which is to say I'm agnostic. I don't think the mystery has a "real" answer. I think it's meant to remain for the viewer forever ambiguous, because that's how it is for Ennis, and that way we can share his pain of uncertainty, which must be awful. Not knowing the fate of a loved one can often be worse, I've been told by people whose family members went missing, than knowing the worst.

Also, to me the movie focuses less on the threat of society's actual intolerance, real though that is, than it does on the effect that intolerance has on an individual: Ennis. A gay bashing would imply that Ennis's fears of living with Jack were at least somewhat sensible and well-founded. But to me, it's sadder, more subtle and more profound to think that his society- and dad-induced fear and shame (which might inspire a faulty understanding of Jack's death) was the biggest obstacle to his own happiness. However, it's all left open to interpretation -- and you all are right that Jack's Randall fling and well-established openness are strong arguments the other way -- which is another reason I don't think we're supposed to know for sure what happened to Jack.

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