Some people have been speculating about the details of the sex in the first Tent Scene. There's also some interesting stuff about their psychology at the time. This is likely to be wiped from IMDb (
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/59839248) at any moment, so I thought I should save it first.
WARNING: Adult contentBoard: Brokeback Mountain (2005)
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troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ArsLonga 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:02:16 )
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dunno whether this will pass the board admins, but for me, there was a certain dishonesty in the anal sex scenes, because it is typically quite painful, at least initally, for many persons, esp. lacking foreplay and/or chemical relaxants. yet, in the 2 obvious implied scenes, it would appear to be the most natural occurence...which has not been the experience of anyone i know. am i off-track here?
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ClancyPantsDelMar 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:11:44 )
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Well, I guess when Ennis had anal sex with his wife Alma, she was used to it. They probably did it that way a lot.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by dav0001 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:19:44 )
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I don't know. When Jack and Ennis went at it, it sounded like Jack was in a bit of pain at first. Then when it showed his face he looked it also. That's the thing with it, it can kind of hurt at first, then it becomes enjoyable.
Now call me dense, but I didn't even realize Ennis and his wife were doing it.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ArsLonga 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:33:34 )
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exactly my point: no foreplay, unless you count 2 minutes of cuddling...most gals need a bit--or a lot--more than that to get going, and i'm talking about relaxing for regular hetero sex.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by LauraGigs 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 21:16:17 )
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UPDATED Wed Nov 29 2006 16:14:49
Yeah, many people have commented on this. I think it's unrealistic that Ennis had enough leverage just by grabbing Jack's . . . shirt?
I mean c'mon, entering a tight spot like that, wouldn't you need to grab the other person's hips with both hands?
But yeah, Jack (and Alma) look uncomfortable -- and would have been uncomfortable, even if Ennis were very tiny (and I doubt he would be!) [[wink]]
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ddmaul 8 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 07:20:55 )
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Neither Jack nor Ennis were gals, though.
Sex between men, especailly men like Jack and Ennis, has a different energy than sex between a man and a woman (and presumably between two women).
Personally, I've been entered under almost exactly the same circumstances as Jack. A little spit, a little shove, and there you are. Did it hurt? Oh yeah. Did it hurt so good? OH YEAH! Would it have been even better if I'd been in love with the guy, and not just hot for him? WITHOUT A DOUBT.
Sex, like life actually, frequently stradles the very fine line between pleasure and pain!
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by pockethankie 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:29:18 )
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according to many of the gay men who have posted here, you are actually a bit off track, many cite their first experience as happening in much the same way, spontaneously, with out special lubricants or other sexual aids to easy penetration. And there are just as many who say it would be terribly painful at first.
"Forget about what you thought you were and just accept who you are."
[[wave3]]
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ArsLonga 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:44:06 )
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thank you; that's why i posed the query. i only know from personal experience and the few friends, straight and gay, who have been open enough to talk about it back in the 70's-80's, after which my generation clammed up, for the most part, about discussing sex freely---how wierd and contradictory is that? "free love," my a$$. so many 60's wannabe hippies and 70's disco freaks became uptight automatons.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by Shuggy 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:29:35 )
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Threads on this topic usually get cut short by admin, but in the short story it says "with the help of the clear slick and a little spit"
They wish
to cure us
but I say
we are the cure
and more at
www.cafepress.com/wero Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ScissorhandsRaineyluv 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:40:21 )
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exactly my point: no foreplay, unless you count 2 minutes of cuddling...most gals need a bit--or a lot--more than that to get going, and i'm talking about relaxing for regular hetero sex.
Yupp. Well Alma didn't want to have sex that way...Ennis made that descision for the both of them. And judging by her facial expression, she clearly doesn't like it. As for Jack...
He seemed like he was in a little pain, but he wanted Ennis bad enough, so he made it work I suppose.I'm sure SNIT went a lot better...
"Should he tell her? Should he not tell her? He's torn, Georgie. This is drama." Ed Wood
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by mutton-5 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 19:50:57 )
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i think jack was ready to be receptive. however, i would have expected a little more fumbling around with the penetration.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by kellyjt 1 day ago (Mon Nov 27 2006 22:38:07 )
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UPDATED Tue Nov 28 2006 14:36:42
A friend of mine had this same issue with the movie, calling the first tent scene unrealistic, and, as an experienced gay man, I too think it does seem a little too easy for Jack to take Ennis on. I blow it off as str8 men not knowing from anal love or how movies and TV shows get to the point and don't waste time with the "boring" parts (Like unlocking doors, searching for keys, stuff like that).
However -- and my post here is probably SO gonna get deleted by the admin -- giving it way too much thought (often in naughty ways), Jack and Ennis's first time could very well be realistic.
First off, both were drunk and half asleep and horny. LOTS of things can happen when one is in that state. Even more can happen when two are in that state. Woo hoo!
Second of all, I presume that Ennis is uncut. I mean, his family was dirt poor; they probably couldn't afford to have him circumcised. Plus, in the short story, there's a passage where Jack tells about the time Jack's dad pissed on and beat him and how Jack noticed how he was cut but John Twist wasn't. Jack talked about how he was "different" that way. Seems to me if Ennis was "different" too, it would have been mentioned. I'm assuming here though.
Anyhow, my point is that uncut c0x provide some natural lube. And Ennis probably had a good bit going on down there. It's not like the boys were showering and scrubbing down every day.
So, in review. . .
[(Lotsa Whiskey + Sleep + Desire) x 2] + (Spit + Smegma) = HOT, Sweeeeet Relations!
I don't know what Alma's deal was. I don't like to think about Ennis and her having sex. That's just nasty!
Jack's the type of guy that says, "Ennis's puddin' is delicious." -- KelKel Fool J
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by malina-5 15 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 00:25:40 )
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that is very enlightening, kellyjt! I hadn't thought of that.. i assumed he'd be circumcised.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by Shuggy 1 hour ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 15:12:55 )
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UPDATED Wed Nov 29 2006 15:13:51
Most US men are (most non US men aren't), but plenty aren't, and not just because their parents are too poor - because its abhorrent.
Kelly's point is a good one, not just because of "natural lube". In many men, the f r sk n provides a rolling bearing - see
http://www.circumstitions.com/Works.html for a non-porn animated cross-section that will give you some idea.
They wish
to cure us
but I say
we are the cure
and more at
www.cafepress.com/wero Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by pinkpanther3394 52 minutes ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 15:26:05 )
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yea but if you notice, right before they do THAT, Ennis coughs mucus (sp?) into his hand and then uses that as lube.
am i the only one that noticed that?
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by mutton-5 9 minutes ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 16:09:18 )
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pinkpanther, you say coughs mucus. myself, i thought 'that little spittle gonna dry up afore he slaps it on his peepee.'
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by loreleib 1 day ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 14:46:15 )
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Well in the short story they imply, maybe more than imply I can't remember, that this is not Jack's first time.
*I love that the movies I like get horrible reviews. It makes them come out on DVD earlier.*
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 1 day ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 14:52:46 )
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Yes. I think that's implied when the story says (and Jack says, in the movie) that it's his second summer on Brokeback. Realistically, it means he probably wasn't alone the previous summer, because although nobody else is mentioned, it probably wouldn't have been safe or practical to send one sheep herder up by himself. And it suggests metaphorically that he's already, you know, been there.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by LauraGigs 1 day ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 15:04:35 )
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But does it make that big of a difference that Jack's done it before? Physically, I mean — as if he's got a hymen back there or something? (Especially if his last time was as long as a year ago?)
(guess it's a question for a gay man or a doctor . . .)
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 1 day ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 15:13:10 )
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(guess it's a question for a gay man or a doctor . . .)
Not necessarily. For example, Alma might know something about it!
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by sokeyt 1 day ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 16:03:16 )
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Surely "dishonesty" is not the correct word? After all, human beings have been having sex without the aid of "chemical relaxants" for gazillions of years. If it was that painful they would hardly have continued!
If you found it not sufficiently convincing, then OK.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by jackie-77 23 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 16:54:08 )
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loreleib wrote:
Well in the short story they imply, maybe more than imply I can't remember, that this is not Jack's first time.
latjoreme wrote:
Yes. I think that's implied when the story says (and Jack says, in the movie) that it's his second summer on Brokeback. Realistically, it means he probably wasn't alone the previous summer, because although nobody else is mentioned, it probably wouldn't have been safe or practical to send one sheep herder up by himself. And it suggests metaphorically that he's already, you know, been there.
I think Jack was alone up there the previous summer. We know the pup tent on the sneak strategy is new, to combat the "bad predator loss if there's no-one lookin' after 'em at night." Then a second worker becomes absolutely necessary, to tend the official camp and cook over the only allowable fire. Having a solitary herder does sound like an awful idea, and I can't imagine it was the usual way of doing things, but I think Aguirre is enough of a cheap bastard -- I mean, can't supply his workers with potatoes and powdered milk? honestly, it's not like it's caviar.
Aguirre says he had a 25% loss the previous summer. So besides the 42 sheep killed by lightning, there were another 208 (very approximately) sheep killed by illness, injury, and I'm guessing almost exclusively predator loss, mostly coyotes. I think this drives him to actually bother hiring enough workers to make the job somewhat feasible. (Blaming Jack about the lightning is probably -- whether consciously or not -- his way of evading and trivializing the fact that Jack wasn't truly to blame for the camping rules and therefore coyote loss either (well, except he could stand to be a better shot).)
But Jack doesn't need an established history of getting sexually involved with his co-sheep-herder, to perhaps not be a virgin. Unlike Ennis, he may (or may not) have had liasons (which may or may not have gone beyond "fooling around") off the mountain, down among civilization.
I'm with those on another thread who think Jack hadn't gone "all the way" yet and was intending to initiate deep kissing and a hand-job.
ArsLonga (the OP) wrote:
it is typically quite painful, at least initally, for many persons, esp. lacking foreplay and/or chemical relaxants
I've lifted out the part I'm responding to, but please note this was couched within a quetion.
The mention of foreplay suggests that arousal and being relaxed help with entry via back door similarly to that via front door (in us who have front doors). Which makes a lot of sense to me regardless of the back door not supplying lubricant upon arousal. This brings me to my point:
There wasn't a lack of foreplay. It was just -- I guess the best word is precipitous. If you pick out all the clues to how Ennis was "ready" so "quickly" -- watch for instance his hands and his breathing -- revealing that it was building from their first touch onward -- and then do the same with Jack, you'll see that there was enough foreplay for full arousal, it just built with the speed and intensity of an avalanche.
Once I sorted out which grunts and moans are whose, I realized Jack was moaning (and squirming a bit too, I noted) at the mere thought that Ennis was preparing to enter him. I think I'll save a more detailed analysis of this for when I find the posts that posited that Ennis "forced" Jack onto all fours and that he took Jack in a violent manner. What I'm mostly trying to say is that lack of foreplay was not an obstacle to the penetration depicted.
Jackie
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 23 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 17:11:54 )
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UPDATED Tue Nov 28 2006 19:40:10
Hi Jackie77,
But Jack doesn't need an established history of getting sexually involved with his co-sheep-herder, to perhaps not be a virgin. Unlike Ennis, he may (or may not) have had liasons (which may or may not have gone beyond "fooling around") off the mountain, down among civilization.
True.
There may be no way of knowing whether Aguirre would have sent Jack up there alone.
But actually I see the metaphor as more important, in this case, than the "reality." When the writer and filmmakers go out of their way to mention that Jack has been there before, I tend to suspect they're trying to tell us something. But in respect to Jack's sexual experience, his "first time" need not literally mean on Brokeback.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by jackie-77 22 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 17:44:53 )
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I see the metaphor as more important, in this case, than the "reality." When the writer and filmmakers go out of their way to mention that Jack has been there before, I tend to suspect they're trying to tell us something. But in respect to Jack's sexual experience, his "first time" need not literally mean on Brokeback.
Good point. I guess I was applying the location of the literal part to the metaphoric part. I jumbled the two together into "he had sex with his sheep-herding co-worker the previous summer." Nooooooo [[frozen]] ! My bad.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by dly64 23 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 17:15:49 )
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jackie-77I'm with those on another thread who think Jack hadn't gone "all the way" yet and was intending to initiate deep kissing and a hand-job.
Thank you! I am also one of those who believe that Jack had not yet gone all the way (with a man) prior to BBM. The short story leaves it vague. But it makes it clear that neither one had expected a companion (pre-mountain). However, I do believe that Jack had several encounters post-mountain. That is clearly stated in the short story hotel scene (and the film implies it ... or at least that Jack had attempted to pick up another man).
Diane
"We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em" - Ennis, BBM
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ClancyPantsDelMar 22 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 17:44:12 )
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Hi jackie-77 --
Honestly, I have not given an awful lot of thought to exactly what kinds of intimacies the boys were contemplating, but I got a kick out of this:
“I'm with those on another thread who think Jack hadn't gone "all the way" yet and was intending to initiate deep kissing and a hand-job.”
I don’t doubt the last part at all. I certainly think Jack wanted the kissing part.
I do however believe Jack had prior experience with another fella. However, while I like latjoreme’s fondness for the metaphor, I also take note of AP’s words (as did dly64): “They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.” This could refer to the notion that it used to be a one-man job OR it could refer to the notion that Jack and Ennis were spending more time together than initially envisioned by their separation orders.
Bottom line for me, I believe Jack had prior same-sex experience; Ennis did not.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by jackie-77 22 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 17:54:58 )
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Bottom line for me, I believe Jack had prior same-sex experience; Ennis did not.
Never a doubt in my mind. Well, that is to say, I never thought otherwise, once I did think anything at all. Before my second viewing I hadn't picked up on enough for this exact question to register.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 20 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 19:49:50 )
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Hi CPDM,
“They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected.” This could refer to the notion that it used to be a one-man job OR it could refer to the notion that Jack and Ennis were spending more time together than initially envisioned by their separation orders.
These are both possibilities. Also, especially given that neither of them had any apparent friends before, I think it suggests that they originally saw their job as a way to make money and were unexpectedly pleased to get a friendship out of it, too.
Maybe Ennis had sheep lanoline stashed somewhere...
by toycoon 20 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 20:18:45 )
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I've used that in a pinch.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by toycoon 19 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 20:43:08 )
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jackie-77: I'm with those on another thread who think Jack hadn't gone "all the way" yet and was intending to initiate deep kissing and a hand-job.
That's what I thought would happen the first night, too.
I'm always slightly alarmed when Jack gets flipped over immediately! (How come you always get to be the top?)
diane: I am also one of those who believe that Jack had not yet gone all the way (with a man) prior to BBM. The short story leaves it vague. But it makes it clear that neither one had expected a companion (pre-mountain).
I thought when Jack makes the comment to Ennis about "...sinners like you an' me marching off to Hell" he was fishing to see how much experience Ennis has.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ClancyPantsDelMar 16 hours ago (Tue Nov 28 2006 23:59:18 )
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Hi toycoon --
You said: "I thought when Jack makes the comment to Ennis about "...sinners like you an' me marching off to Hell" he was fishing to see how much experience Ennis has."
I agree. It's funny because we have discussed how they never talk about "normal" guy things -- like girls and sex. But this kind of fishing for information or testing the waters to even see if this kind of conversation is OK is exactly what a lot of guys do with each other. I mean, not for sex purposes, but for edging into a previously unexplored, and possibly taboo, area of conversation. Is this clear? I dunno.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 9 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 07:06:35 )
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Hi toycoon and CPDM,
"I thought when Jack makes the comment to Ennis about "...sinners like you an' me marching off to Hell" he was fishing to see how much experience Ennis has."
I agree. It's funny because we have discussed how they never talk about "normal" guy things -- like girls and sex. But this kind of fishing for information or testing the waters to even see if this kind of conversation is OK is exactly what a lot of guys do with each other. I mean, not for sex purposes, but for edging into a previously unexplored, and possibly taboo, area of conversation. Is this clear? I dunno.
I'm not sure I do understand what purposes you mean (for them to edge into previously unexplored topics).
But if Jack was fishing with the "sinners like you and me" remark, he sure got what he was looking for with Ennis' "ain't had the opportunity" reply. When Jack smiles and goes "Mmmm!" -- like, "We'll have to see what we can do about that!" -- it's kind of a funny response. That might have been a good time to follow up by edging further into an unexplored topic. As far as we know, he didn't. But maybe that's what inspired Jack's move to edge into an unexplored topic later that night.
(Slightly OT, but Jack does that kind of fishing a lot, hunh? I think "Your folks run you off?" and "All this time and you ain't found nobody else to marry?" may be other examples of it. I guess that's what Ennis means when he tells Alma they're fishin buddies. [[laugh]] )
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by anml-lvr 7 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 09:08:33 )
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Maybe Ennis actually thinks sex before marriage is a sin. I believe Ennis was a virgin and did not know what Jack's intentions were. Jack was not fishing to find out if Ennis had been with a man. He was probably thinking because Ennis smoked and drank that maybe he has had premarital sex.
I have seen the film 10 times and I honestly believe Ennis didn't know Jack was going to make a move.
I feel that Jack had had sex with men before Ennis. He whole personality of being so alive would indicate so.
Any opinions?
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by mutton-5 6 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 10:18:15 )
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i see it your way anmllvr. jack had designs on ennis from the very start of the film. jack threw himself on his belly. he may not ever had a sexual encounter with a man before, but he had thunk it aplenty! ennis seems like some of those men i've met in life who didn't come out or know they were gay til something like this unexpectedly happened.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by anml-lvr 5 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 10:24:26 )
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I agree with you mutton-5.
I know a lot of people who didn't discover they are gay until 20+ years of marriage and kids.
We are so conditioned to fit into roles of who society thinks we should be. It's not until some chance encounter(which was meant to happen)occurs and we see a side of ourselves which was there all along.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 5 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 10:38:42 )
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Maybe Ennis actually thinks sex before marriage is a sin. I believe Ennis was a virgin and did not know what Jack's intentions were. Jack was not fishing to find out if Ennis had been with a man. He was probably thinking because Ennis smoked and drank that maybe he has had premarital sex.
I have seen the film 10 times and I honestly believe Ennis didn't know Jack was going to make a move.
I see it partly your way, anml-lvr. I don't think Ennis was saying, "You may be a sinner, but I ain't had sex with a man." Frankly, I'm not even 100% convinced that he was referring specifically to sex at all. In describing the Pentacost that way, I don't think Jack was deliberately angling to get Ennis to confess his sexual history. Nor was Ennis expecting Jack to make a move.
But I do think that's the subtext of the exchange. Jack mentions sin, perhaps coyly. Ennis replies in a way that suggests sin = sex, and implies that, although he hasn't done it, he is open to the idea. Jack is intrigued. And no mention is ever made of women, even though Ennis is engaged to one (with whom, presumably, he'll soon be able to enjoy "sin-free" sex). So without anyone acknowledging anything consciously -- especially Ennis! -- information is conveyed. To us the viewers, certainly, and maybe also to each other.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by anml-lvr 5 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 10:46:07 )
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Thanks latjoreme.
One of the brillant things about this film is that we will never really know.
All we can do is have stimualting conversations about what we think was going on.
If Ennis was so opposed than he would have high-tailed it out of the tent. Or come down off the mountain the next day. Maybe he did have feelings for Jack and when Jack made the move Ennis was so overcome with passion(which has never known) that he had to go for it!!!
Off to work..:O)
More later.....
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by latjoreme 4 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 11:59:41 )
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Maybe he did have feelings for Jack and when Jack made the move Ennis was so overcome with passion(which has never known) that he had to go for it!!!
Oh, I definitely think this is true, anml-lvr! I think Ennis had feelings for Jack but was doing his best to repress them. Jack's move put Ennis at a crossroads: should he do what he's been told all his life he's "supposed" to do, or go for this one chance at what he'd secretly always wanted? You can see his mind work. And in that instant he chooses, altering the course of his life forever. It's one of the most powerful moments in the movie, IMO.
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ClancyPantsDelMar 3 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 13:07:20 )
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Hi latjoreme --
"Jack's move put Ennis at a crossroads: should he do what he's been told all his life he's "supposed" to do, or go for this one chance at what he'd secretly always wanted? You can see his mind work. And in that instant he chooses, altering the course of his life forever. It's one of the most powerful moments in the movie, IMO."
So true! And it's the second most pivotal moment in the film! [[laugh]]
Re: troubled about dishonesty in sex scenes...
by ddmaul 8 hours ago (Wed Nov 29 2006 07:30:46 )
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Wow. Who'da thunk my senior thesis would ever be applicalbe to anything? I won't go into details, but the previous poster is correct. Men almost ALWAYS attempt to move conversation into "taboo" areas when talking with other men. Maybe it's online somewhere (my thesis, I mean). It was called "Breaching for Brotherhood: Conversational Improprieties in Everyday Speech Between Men" (or something like that -- I wrote it 20 years ago!)
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