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Ennis' non-vomiting

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serious crayons:
OK, here's how I like to think of it:

Story Ennis is far better at verbal expression, and also less inhibited. I can't imagine Movie Ennis ever saying anything like "I never shoulda let you outa my sight" or "I musta wrang it out a hundred times" or "Li'l darlin."

But just because Movie Ennis rarely -- or never! -- puts his feelings into words doesn't mean he doesn't know what they are. Yes, he tries to deny and hide them from others. He's terrible at expressing them appropriately. And he is a complete failure at acting on them in a constructive way. But I think he recognizes his feelings for what they are, as evidenced by his breakdown in the alley, his moments of wistful longing during their four years' separation, his elation when he gets the postcard, his burst of affection when Jack shows up for the reunion, his "prayer of thanks" remark (that's about as close as he ever gets to expressing love in words, and even then he undercuts it with the harmonica crack), his happy smile whenever he sees Jack (even in the post-divorce scene!), his jealousy at the prospect of Jack seeing other men, his grief after he gets the news of Jack, etc. He's not a verbal guy, but to me his behavior clearly indicates that he knows all along how much he loves Jack.

What he realizes in the end is that he blew it -- he should have acted while he had the chance, overcome his fears, taken whatever risks were necessary in order to be with the love of his life. He realizes that love matters more than anything else (indicated by his question of Alma Jr.).

Another difference is that Story Ennis seems to reject Jack's offer out of purely practical fear of violent consequences. Movie Ennis also makes that excuse, but I think that his fear is mixed with more shame and reluctance to admit that he's gay. Story Ennis seems to accept that more matter-of-factly. He's less homophobic. I guess you could take this as a sign that he's more in touch with his feelings, but I think it's actually a matter of being more comfortable with categorizing those feelings in a way that Movie Ennis couldn't allow himself to do. Until the end.

Jeff Wrangler:

--- Quote from: latjoreme on April 13, 2006, 11:09:26 am ---OK, here's how I like to think of it:

Story Ennis is far better at verbal expression, and also less inhibited. I can't imagine Movie Ennis ever saying anything like "I never shoulda let you outa my sight" or "I musta wrang it out a hundred times" or "Li'l darlin."

But just because Movie Ennis rarely -- or never! -- puts his feelings into words doesn't mean he doesn't know what they are. Yes, he tries to deny and hide them from others. He's terrible at expressing them appropriately. And he is a complete failure at acting on them in a constructive way. But I think he recognizes his feelings for what they are, as evidenced by his breakdown in the alley, his moments of wistful longing during their four years' separation, his elation when he gets the postcard, his burst of affection when Jack shows up for the reunion, his "prayer of thanks" remark (that's about as close as he ever gets to expressing love in words, and even then he undercuts it with the harmonica crack), his happy smile whenever he sees Jack (even in the post-divorce scene!), his jealousy at the prospect of Jack seeing other men, his grief after he gets the news of Jack, etc. He's not a verbal guy, but to me his behavior clearly indicates that he knows all along how much he loves Jack.

What he realizes in the end is that he blew it -- he should have acted while he had the chance, overcome his fears, taken whatever risks were necessary in order to be with the love of his life. He realizes that love matters more than anything else (indicated by his question of Alma Jr.).

Another difference is that Story Ennis seems to reject Jack's offer out of purely practical fear of violent consequences. Movie Ennis also makes that excuse, but I think that his fear is mixed with more shame and reluctance to admit that he's gay. Story Ennis seems to accept that more matter-of-factly. He's less homophobic. I guess you could take this as a sign that he's more in touch with his feelings, but I think it's actually a matter of being more comfortable with categorizing those feelings in a way that Movie Ennis couldn't allow himself to do. Until the end.




--- End quote ---

We certainly agree on at least two important points. Story Ennis is absolutely less inhibited and far better at verbal expression than his screen incarnation. In the story I love the dialogue you quote and really miss it from the film, but in a discussion on the Old Board a long time ago, some of us agreed--reluctantly--that those bits of Annie Proulx's dialogure were not consistent with the character of Movie Ennis.

And "fear mixed with shame and reluctance to admit he is gay" is about as good a definition of internalized homophobia as I've ever seen. So Story Ennis is less internally homophobic.

However, I also think there is more going on in the confrontation scene than just Ennis being jealous of Jack of having sex with other guys. To me, that's what's happening with Story Ennis. It's also happening with Movie Ennis, but I think Movie Ennis's internalized homphobia plays a big role in his reaction to Jack's revelation that he's been to Mexico. Story Ennis just collapses to his knees and doesn't say anything. Movie Ennis, however, lashes out verbally at Jack. My take is that if Jack is having sex with other guys besides Ennis, not only do they not have the "one shot deal" that Ennis has supposed they have had for nearly 20 years, but I think it also means, to Ennis, that Jack is gay, and that challenges Ennis's concept of who and what he (Ennis) is, as well as the basis of their relationship.

I also agree that one thing that's happening at the end is that Ennis realizes he blew it. But I think his question to Alma, Jr., as to whether her boyfriend loves her isn't just that he has come to understand the importance of love. He's also come to understand, finally, that love is really what he had with Jack, and now it's too late. The shirts are all he has.

serious crayons:

--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on April 13, 2006, 11:38:54 am ---However, I also think there is more going on in the confrontation scene than just Ennis being jealous of Jack of having sex with other guys. To me, that's what's happening with Story Ennis. It's also happening with Movie Ennis, but I think Movie Ennis's internalized homphobia plays a big role in his reaction to Jack's revelation that he's been to Mexico. Story Ennis just collapses to his knees and doesn't say anything. Movie Ennis, however, lashes out verbally at Jack. My take is that if Jack is having sex with other guys besides Ennis, not only do they not have the "one shot deal" that Ennis has supposed they have had for nearly 20 years, but I think it also means, to Ennis, that Jack is gay, and that challenges Ennis's concept of who and what he (Ennis) is, as well as the basis of their relationship.

I also agree that one thing that's happening at the end is that Ennis realizes he blew it. But I think his question to Alma, Jr., as to whether her boyfriend loves her isn't just that he has come to understand the importance of love. He's also come to understand, finally, that love is really what he had with Jack, and now it's too late. The shirts are all he has.

--- End quote ---

On your first point, I sort of agree. This part has always been slightly ambiguous to me: jealousy or homophobia? I read it as either jealousy or some combination. Jack's switching of genders when he confesses his affair the night before is a parallel situation -- Jack either knew Ennis would be jealous or he knew Ennis would be upset by the implications. But a) Ennis' description of Jack as "boys like you," suggests he has already acknowledged Jack's orientation at some level, and b) Ennis' subtle but sad reaction when John Twist reveals the existence of another boyfriend would seem to add support tothe jealousy interpretation.

But on the second point, about why he posed the question to Alma Jr., I stick by my original position. Here his beloved daughter has announced she's marrying someone he's never met and the only question he asks is, does he love you? -- not, how can you be sure or do you feel the same or can he support you or is he a nice guy or anything like that (questions most fathers would ask). All he needs to know is whether the love is there because he now realizes that's all that matters.

As for the omission of Story Ennis' endearments, I'll have to admit (donning hardhat) that I don't miss them. With all due regard for the story, I think Movie Ennis is a more complex and interesting character for the very reasons we're discussing: he's doesn't just weigh his love for Jack against practical risks, he weighs his love against his own strong resistance, his inhibitions and shame and fear (ie, internalized homophobia). To me, that conflict makes the story more powerful -- it shows how strong Ennis' love must be to overcome that kind of emotional struggle, making his obvious desire for Jack all the more moving. And it's also more subtle -- it becomes a story not only about how society's intolerance limits people's practical options, but also about how that intolerance damages people psychologically.

Jeff Wrangler:
I hope we're not misreading or talking past each other.


--- Quote ---On your first point, I sort of agree. This part has always been slightly ambiguous to me: jealousy or homophobia? I read it as either jealousy or some combination. Jack's switching of genders when he confesses his affair the night before is a parallel situation -- Jack either knew Ennis would be jealous or he knew Ennis would be upset by the implications. But a) Ennis' description of Jack as "boys like you," suggests he has already acknowledged Jack's orientation at some level, and b) Ennis' subtle but sad reaction when John Twist reveals the existence of another boyfriend would seem to add support tothe jealousy interpretation.
--- End quote ---

I'm sorry if I was unclear, but I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think jealousy was involved in Ennis's reaction. I don't believe this is an "either-or" situation. What I was trying to say was that I think his internalized homophobia accounts for the intensity of his reaction. Sure, there is jealousy. Even to someone without Movie Ennis's internalized homophobia it would hurt like hell to find out that someone you thought was monogamous with you--as far as their male-male sex was concerned--for nearly two decades had been cheating on you.

I'm not convinced the "boys like you" comment means other than Ennis knows that Jack likes to get fucked--pardon the explicitness--because that's what they do, and he has heard that guys who like to get fucked can get fucked in Mexico. Even if it does mean that Ennis is acknowledging Jack's orientation at some level, it doesn't detract from the homophobia element in Ennis's reaction.


--- Quote ---But on the second point, about why he posed the question to Alma Jr., I stick by my original position. Here his beloved daughter has announced she's marrying someone he's never met and the only question he asks is, does he love you? -- not, how can you be sure or do you feel the same or can he support you or is he a nice guy or anything like that (questions most fathers would ask). All he needs to know is whether the love is there because he now realizes that's all that matters.
--- End quote ---

I don't believe I really disagreed here, either. You were the one who said Ennis came to understand that he blew it. I meant to say that I believe he came to understand that he blew it because he didn't understand until he found the shirts that what it really was, was love.


--- Quote ---As for the omission of Story Ennis' endearments, I'll have to admit (donning hardhat) that I don't miss them. With all due regard for the story, I think Movie Ennis is a more complex and interesting character for the very reasons we're discussing: he's doesn't just weigh his love for Jack against practical risks, he weighs his love against his own strong resistance, his inhibitions and shame and fear (ie, internalized homophobia). To me, that conflict makes the story more powerful -- it shows how strong Ennis' love must be to overcome that kind of emotional struggle, making his obvious desire for Jack all the more moving. And it's also more subtle -- it becomes a story not only about how society's intolerance limits people's practical options, but also about how that intolerance damages people psychologically.
--- End quote ---

(Throwing brickbats at your hardhat ... LOL!) I miss those lines because they're great dialogue from a master writer. Unquestionably the ramping up of the characters--Jack as well as Ennis--made for a much more powerful story.

And on that note I'm afraid I have to leave this interesting exchange, as I need to get ready for a trip out of town for Easter weekend!

Brown Eyes:

--- Quote ---As for the omission of Story Ennis' endearments, I'll have to admit (donning hardhat) that I don't miss them. With all due regard for the story, I think Movie Ennis is a more complex and interesting character for the very reasons we're discussing: he's doesn't just weigh his love for Jack against practical risks, he weighs his love against his own strong resistance, his inhibitions and shame and fear (ie, internalized homophobia). To me, that conflict makes the story more powerful -- it shows how strong Ennis' love must be to overcome that kind of emotional struggle, making his obvious desire for Jack all the more moving. And it's also more subtle -- it becomes a story not only about how society's intolerance limits people's practical options, but also about how that intolerance damages people psychologically.

--- End quote ---

What an interesting discussion.  I've been enjoying just sitting back and reading.  I'm not going to add much since many of the points I would likely add have been said in a number of different posts above.  But, I have to say I thought this observation was particularly interesting.  Way to go latjoreme!
 :D

About different interpreations of the film vs. book though...  I remember early on when I'd only seen the movie a handful of times and had only read the story once or twice, I REALLY liked the movie better than the story.  This is an unusual situation for me (as I love books).  But, one of my reasons for liking the film better was I thought it was flat out more romantic (also not a quality I tend to really worry about too much... but in this case the romance of the film was/ is a huge part of its charm for me).  I feel like Movie Ennis's restraint verbally has something to do with the romance.  The romance and his love comes through in much more subtle ways in the film (usually physically).

At this point I tend to like the film and the book pretty much equally, but for different reasons (In the story I primarily have come to love the way Proulx expresses herself, quirky turns-of-phrase, the poetry of her descriptions).  And, the two Ennis characters truly feel like different people in many ways.  My I love Ennis's endearments in the book (adorable!) but they would seem out of place a bit coming from Movie Ennis. 

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