Our BetterMost Community > Chez Tremblay
Mandatory Viewing
starboardlight:
--- Quote from: delalluvia on April 25, 2006, 08:35:32 am ---I would expect objectivity even in such movies as Murderball, Star. Not only would I expect a good story of humans overcoming a serious handicap, but I would also want to see that they suffer, their families struggle under the burden of supporting them, the trips to the doctors, that they can be jerks and assholes just like everyone else - just because one is handicapped doesn't instantly turn someone into a saint. I expect to see that. I understand the people involved might get offended, but are the documentary filmmakers telling a 'true' story or a fairytale?
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to be fair, that's not the story in the film. it's simply a sports film. it follows two participants in the sports, and focus on their passion for the sport, not their struggle with being paraplegics. Again, there was no objectivity. In order to understand the excitement in the sport, you had to follow their passion. The two guys' biases are clear but they're still infectious. I just don't see it as being wrong to show bias, because it's ultimately our responsibility to be discerning.
Although I also admit that there is a case for holding back judgement. I think of our movie here, and how the film makers held back judgement of either the men or the women's actions. By allowing the audience to make up their own mind, rather than telling us what to believe, it got us to become more involved. That's an approach to story telling that very difficult to do. Most story tellers won't even attempt it.
rtprod:
Whoah, let's back up here.
Can someone please tell me where all these supposed fictions lie in F 9-11? There's only so much "spin" one can put on certain facts that speak loud and clear when they are caught like deer in headlights on camera in an elementary school class.
I stick to my point that there is a big difference bewteen manipulation and having a point of view, and Michael Moore has a point of view. The same could be said that Leni Reifenstahl had specific point of view with her classic documentary The Triumph of the Will, which glorified the Nazi party and was propoganda. It's a classic, and it lies about and glamorizes its subject, but it's one of the best documentaries of all time. The point--she was Hitler's friend and it was her point of view.
--- Quote ---This was discussed about MM when 'Bowling for Columbine' first came out. The response? Good documentary films/filmmakers are objective.
That leaves the rest and includes MM.
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Who discussed this and issued the final verdict? Any great documentarian knows, from Morris to the Maysles to Moore, that the film has a power to change someone, whether it's exonerrating an innocent man in The Thin Blue Line or following Lila to the Capitol in F-9/11. We live in political times and the medium is not The New York Times, as one documentarian recently told me, it's a vehicle for argument as much as illumination.
--- Quote ---Well, I did because I was a liberal defending liberals to my right-wing friends and all they were going on about was MM's "lies and propaganda" in the F 9/11 film. After a while I had to shut up because I didn't have a leg to stand on fact-wise. And neither did MM after the criticism came down on his head. After being touted as a 'documentary filmmaker' he eventually had to come out and say F 9/11 wasn't a 'documentary' but a political film. Had MM been less fast and easy with the facts, perhaps he would have reached the audience that mattered. The 50+% who voted for Dubya.
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The belief that F-9/11 has been debunked is mystifying, as most I know consider it a great film and the criticism of it a knee-jerk reactionary and obvious scramble on the part of the right to save a very pale face. I believe it won an Oscar, made 120 million and deeply affected most people in this country who saw it. It is, on the whole, factually correct though the quibblers who like to take everything down, from A Beautiful Mind to The Hurricane, will find fault and defense.
My final thought is that this lying, cheating, torturing, murdering, cheap, masquerading, attacking, sexist, homophobic, elitist, separatist, ignorant, warmongering adminstration has pulled enough wool over our eyes for too long and if Michael Moore wants to knit himself a sheepskin blanket, so be it. It will never amount to what they've done if we want to play point/counterpoint all the way to the next election. At least he won't be washing children's blood off his hands like they will be.
Incidentally, Eugene Jarecki's excellent documentary Why We Fight also explores the American war machine and its effects in Iraq, through the eyes of participants on both sides, and...GUESS WHAT? He reached the same conclusions -- murdered civilians in Iraq, willy nilly bombing, disenfranchised ex-adminstration members. Guilty, Guilty, Guilty.
Also, check out the doc Control Room....
Everyone can't be playing fast and loose now can they?????????
rt
MaineWriter:
--- Quote from: rtprod on April 25, 2006, 02:19:49 pm ---Whoah, let's back up here.
--- Quote ---My final thought is that this lying, cheating, torturing, murdering, cheap, masquerading, attacking, sexist, homophobic, elitist, separatist, ignorant adminstration has pulled enough wool over our eyes for too long and if Michael Moore wants to knit himself a sheepskin blanket, so be it. It will never amount to what they've done if we want to play point/counterpoint all the way to the next election. At least he won't be washing children's blood off his hands like they will be.
rt
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Hmm, Mr. Prod, let me venture a guess here...you did not vote Republican in 2004? ;)
rtprod:
Am I now or have I ever been...a Republican? I have never, and will never. Ever.
Yes, let's use the term "family values" shall we, when what we really mean is an attempt to turn civilization back to a dark continent. While we're at it let's take away women's rights like Roe vs. Wade and stop sending condoms to Africa, instead sending bomb after bomb someplace else. Bloody f*cking brilliant. Better still, watch your back for all those Code Red alerts that never materialize. We should be scared, just not of the shell-game they're dealing us.
Wonderful -- progressive, isn't it? Do we feel safe yet?
rt
MaineWriter:
--- Quote from: rtprod on April 25, 2006, 02:39:42 pm ---I have never, and will never. Ever.
Yes, let's use the term "family values" shall we, when what we really mean is an attempt to turn civilization back to a dark continent, while we're at it let's take away women's rights like Roe vs. Wade and stop sending condoms to Africa. Bloody f*cking brilliant. While we're at it, watch your back for all those Code Red alerts that never materialize. We should be scared, just not of the shell-game they're dealing us.
Wonderful -- progressive, isn't it?
rt
--- End quote ---
Sweetheart,
You won't get an argument from me on any of this--believe me.
L
xo
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