Our BetterMost Community > The Polling Place
Your age and your favourite cowboy
serious crayons:
Happy belated birthday, Amanda! And thanks for describing your response. I've always been interested to hear thoughts on this subject from gay women and straight men who connect with the movie.
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 05, 2006, 07:50:51 pm ---Maybe what I should have said was, Is there something about Ennis that brings out a nurturing impulse (as we might say it does in Jack), but I think you got my drift.
As for the role of appearances, all I can really say for myself is that I still prefer Jack, but I sure as heck wouldn't say no to Heath Ledger!
--- End quote ---
No, it's not exactly a nurturing impulse. It's more like, I'm a natural pessiimist myself and, unlike Amanda, I'm also attracted to pessimism; optimism seems a bit simplistic to me. I know I SHOULD be attracted to optimists, they are much healthier. But apparently I've never found mental health very interesting.
However, back to appearance, I prefer Heath but I wouldn't make Jake wait until my divorce papers went through, either!
Jeff Wrangler:
--- Quote ---Optimism seems a bit simplistic.
--- End quote ---
At this risk of wandering OT, that comment reminded me of something I read somewhere a long time ago that purported that people who were a bit pessimistic, and perhaps a bit depressed, had "a more realistic" view of the world than optimists.
I doubt that's true in every case, but my late boyfriend was a good example. Poor kid, he thought he would be able to save enough money to go to the Olympics in Australia by throwing his loose change into an empty pickle jar!
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: Jeff Wrangler on May 06, 2006, 12:49:14 pm ---people who were a bit pessimistic, and perhaps a bit depressed, had "a more realistic" view of the world than optimists.
--- End quote ---
I think this is true, unfortunately. Though I have certainly known people who are unrealisically pessimistic, too. In fact, I live with one.
Brown Eyes:
Thanks Katherine. :D Well, I can understand finding pessimism attractive too. That comes out in the kind of humor I tend to like... which is usually very dry, sarcastic, etc. I do find optimism refreshing (and I find that my opinions re: BBM keep coming out sounding very optimistic... this movie seems to bring out some hidden optimism in my personality I guess). The thing I don't find attractive at all... something I find very irritating in fact, is naivete. And sometimes it seems naivete goes hand in hand with optimism, but I'm increasingly convinced that they're not quite the same thing.
One more word on my reaction to the film as a gay woman... well, I just tend to like any good movie concerning gay characters, romance, etc. I'm more than happy to watch movies about two men in the same way I like to watch lesbian movies. It's much easier for me to relate to the romance between two men than it is for me to relate to the portrayal of straight romance (I can find girl-boy stories moving, interesting, poignant, etc... but there's a missing element of identification).
OK back on topic a bit-
The thing that I like about both Jack and Ennis is that both characters are complex. While Jack is the optimist and outgoing one, he's certainly not one-dimensional and seems to be very, very thoughtful and self-aware. Jack is the emotionally available "sweetheart" but is also often the strong one who finds himself having to comfort an emotionally distraught Ennis. Jack is tough enough to handle things like Aguirre's comments, while they would probably completely freak Ennis out. Ennis is the stoic tough guy, but he's also the one that cries a lot and seems to have quite a sentimental side and to be incredibly sensitive (Heath has discussed trying to portray Ennis as sensitive not only emotionally but physically sensitive to things like light, etc.).
serious crayons:
--- Quote from: atz75 on May 06, 2006, 08:46:29 pm ---Thanks Katherine. :D Well, I can understand finding pessimism attractive too. That comes out in the kind of humor I tend to like... which is usually very dry, sarcastic, etc. I do find optimism refreshing (and I find that my opinions re: BBM keep coming out sounding very optimistic... this movie seems to bring out some hidden optimism in my personality I guess). The thing I don't find attractive at all... something I find very irritating in fact, is naivete. And sometimes it seems naivete goes hand in hand with optimism, but I'm increasingly convinced that they're not quite the same thing.
One more word on my reaction to the film as a gay woman... well, I just tend to like any good movie concerning gay characters, romance, etc. I'm more than happy to watch movies about two men in the same way I like to watch lesbian movies. It's much easier for me to relate to the romance between two men than it is for me to relate to the portrayal of straight romance (I can find girl-boy stories moving, interesting, poignant, etc... but there's a missing element of identification).
OK back on topic a bit-
The thing that I like about both Jack and Ennis is that both characters are complex. While Jack is the optimist and outgoing one, he's certainly not one-dimensional and seems to be very, very thoughtful and self-aware. Jack is the emotionally available "sweetheart" but is also often the strong one who finds himself having to comfort an emotionally distraught Ennis. Jack is tough enough to handle things like Aguirre's comments, while they would probably completely freak Ennis out. Ennis is the stoic tough guy, but he's also the one that cries a lot and seems to have quite a sentimental side and to be incredibly sensitive (Heath has discussed trying to portray Ennis as sensitive not only emotionally but physically sensitive to things like light, etc.).
--- End quote ---
So many interesting points to respond to!
Re optimism vs. naivete: you are right. There is a difference. There is a quality that some people have that, much as I might like them, when I sense it I immediately know I will not have much in common with them. Is it naivete? Blind idealism? It has something to do with resolutely refusing even to notice or recognize the dark side, out of some sense that it's "wrong" or "unhealthy." If people acknowlege the dark side and yet choose optimism, that's different. Does that make any sense? This is a hard one to articulate. I've been trying to pin it down for a while, myself.
Re the complexity of the characters: it actually goes back to what I said above. Jack acknowledges the dark side -- hell, he experiences it himself, first hand, frequently -- but chooses optimism. So, yes, he's complex. Though not quite as complex as Ennis, who is struggling to reconcile two absolutely contradictory impulses. And that contrast of stoicism/toughness vs. sensitivity/crying a lot -- I've always found that a really appealing characteristic in men, for some reason.
Re Heath saying Ennis is physically sensitive to light, etc. -- interesting! I hadn't heard that.
Re your appreciating gay movies in general: I can understand that. I tried like crazy to get a lesbian friend to engage in an email discussion of Brokeback -- just like I try like crazy to get ANYONE I know to discuss it, without much luck -- and she kept ignoring me and turning the discussion to other movies, "Good Night & Good Luck" or whatever. I chalked it up to her reacting to the movie like almost everyone else I know in "real life" reacts: OK, but not life-changing. Which I suppose did surprise me a bit more in her case than others. Maybe it shouldn't have, though. We're a very select group here, for whatever reasons.
Re optimism regarding this movie: I'm that way, too, as I've noted to you before. In my case, I think it's a desperate survival tactic; if I allowed myself to be pessimistic about it I would be too overwhelmed by sadness. So I grab at any straw I can: at any juncture, if there is more than one way to interpret something, I ALWAYS choose the more cheerful, optimistic way. Just for my own sanity.
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